General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 9

[Incarnadine]

Just thought I'd wade in on the thoughts that her death scenario would be due to her wanting to leave. I think it is unlikely, as most of the reasons have already been stated in the thread. Even if she does want to leave I doubt they would do it in this manner. As a precedent we have Kristine Sutherland who let Joss know of her intention to leave before season 5 got underway, Joss actually asked her to stay on just a bit longer so he could "kill her off properly". I'm sure if Amber wanted to leave she would let Joss know with plenty of warning to write her out properly (even if it meant killing her character off) or Joss would use his powers of persuasion to keep her around at least partly into season 7 where her leaving (or death) could be worked into an overall season arc rather than a slapdash and really rather incongruous sudden death as the season is winding down.

[Tenetria]

I was at a concert recently and heard an actor talking about an episode of Buffy that he filmed recently. In the episode, a demon confronts Willow about resurrecting Buffy. There is a line something along the lines of "How dare you invoke the name of Osiris?"

He also said that a blue mist encirlces Willow and Tara. I'm not sure how this fits in with the latest spoilers. I was thinking it might be from episode 19 (I remember hearing a spoiler about the trio summoning a demon).

[Genea]

Okay, my wife is wondering why I'm crying. I'm wondering does Amber want out of Buffy, is this a test for Willow, maybe Joss has just lost it what is the deal? I feel like I'm in lesbian hell why do the gay characters have to be maimed and killed. This is a total shock to my system first reading that W/T are getting back together and then this,Tara dead maybe she'll come back, maybe not but, I'm hoping against hope that she does.

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Sugarloaf
"..I just want something thats ya know,mine."
"I am you,you know."
"What."
"Yours."

[Zahir]

For the record, I'm going to repeat my firm belief that Joss & ME has a more-or-less official Disinformation Bureau. Like really good liars, these folks often blend real spoilers with fake ones (in fact, Joss as much as admitted it).

I'm convinced this is the same. My own theory is that Tara will survive an attack but Willow will think she'd dead and go ballistic. Maybe that will turn Willow into this living, breathing piece of black magic a la Darth Vader (that would make a dramatic storyline), but then methinks she could and would be redeemed via Tara's love (again, a la Darth Vader).

I believe. And I will continue to believe. Because I also hope...

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[Oz_Island]

I'm not really sure how I feel about the potential spoiler that has been discussed on this thread. On one hand, it would be horrible to see Tara die and Willow go evil because of it, but on the other, the season that Angel went evil was to me the best season of Buffy thus far. It wasn't so much because Angel became Angelus, but because Buffy still loved him in spite of his evilness, and the scene when Buffy kills Angel at the end of the season is the second saddest moment in the series (Buffy's mom dying is of course the saddest). I really don't think they could build a whole season around Willow being the "Big Bad" as you call it. And to me, an evil Willow just seems silly. It was silly (meaning seeing Willow as evil was silly) when it was done in The Wish, and in Doppelgangland, and it would be silly if they did it again.

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"I laugh in the face of danger. And then I hide until it goes away." - Xander

"I have a plan. We wait, and Buffy saves us." - Xander

"What's Xander's number? Oh, ya 1-800-I'm-dating-a-skanky-ho." - Willow

[nikki]

i don't post on these boards but i def been tryin to keep up on whats gonna happen to tara and willow...and i went to tvtome.com and it says that in the last episode, "real"
"The events of the last episodes leave a lot of devastating storylines out in the open and everything may get reversed or corrected by the end of the finale" so hopefully our tara will be alive and happy wit willow...if not...then i give up on tv shows

[Kittie17]

I still think there's some important information missing about all this "Tara's death". I feel is like someone let go this spoilers but with something missing just to scare us. I don't know if i'm making sense.. damn it's late here, sorry.

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Todo lo que necesitamos es sentido comun y eso no puede ser enseñado

[MadeinNZ]

I've been reading this thread on and off for the last couple of days and just wanted to make a couple of observations. Sorry if I'm covering old ground.

* The low of reading about Tara's possible death was made all the worse because I'd jsut read about the big reconciliation (and mega smootchies that followed). There was so much further to fall. Depressed now.

* I don't think I quite realised how important the W/T relationship was to the gay community (I knew it was important - just not how much). I have learnt heaps over the last couple of days. Thanks.

* I'm sorry, but I just can't bring myself to turn on Joss and the writers so quickly. One of the main reasons I love the show is that the quality of writing is so high. These are the guys that gave us W/T in the first place. They still rock in my book.

* I'll miss Tara terribly if she goes. I hope she doesn't. But if she does, I can't see Willow heading back to boys town. She's come too far.

* And lastly, I've heard some comments that the end of W/T will be the end of the Kitten Board. Let me just say .... PLEEEAAASSSE NOOOO. This is the only Board that I have felt comfortable joining and that has nothing to do with W/T. Its all to do with the amazing people that are here and the respect people are given.

That's it. I feel better now (although still depressed).

[This message has been edited by MadeinNZ (edited March 11, 2002).]

[LBJM]

gee I have one hell of a headache..they just cant kill tara.. I'm sick of shows killing the good people the people with heart.. JOSS said she wasnt gonna die so did others.. if they lie I'm not watching tv anymore.. hollywood doesnt like happiness its too boring for them..

my anger is getting the best of me..
LBJM

[Willowlicious]

Once again, just because I seem to have to try to cheer myself up every five minutes or so, let me say that I don't think that Tara's "death" has anything to do with Amber Benson.

I've gotten no impression that she wants to leave or is leaving from her personal actions. Quite the contrary. I think her character is being used as a prop for Willow's destruction. That is all. Of course, that's very sad and ironic seeing that Tara leaving was supposed to build up her confidence and make her stronger. Amber said in that Buffy mag interview that Tara used to be "an appendage" of Willow's but wasn't anymore. Nope. Now she's just a prop. Damn writers!

Anyway, I don't think it has anything to do with Amber's wishes or her contract. I do think that perhaps the supposed strength Tara obtained this season will be expanded upon next season. After all, this horrible arc of Willow's could have been achieved without going through the trouble of making Tara more confident and a friend of Buffy's, etc. She's just a prop in this finale, remember? It makes me hope her arc will come into play next season. She is still pivotal to Dawn, after all, and is still the most mature and innocent. I think her death is nothing more than a deplorable convenience for the writers to get to Willow. Once they've made their sick little point, she'll be back.

I still think she's coming back.

Sue me. Or commit me. Something.

Sigh.

[Warduke]

quote:

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Originally posted by MadeinNZ:
I'm sorry, but I just can't bring myself to turn on Joss and the writers so quickly. One of the main reasons I love the show is that the quality of writing is so high. These are the guys that gave us W/T in the first place. They still rock in my book.

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That's why I'll give Joss and all the writers the rest of the season to see how this turns out, but in the end, if Tara is dead and not coming back and Willow is all dark and evil, then I *will* turn on them, because they will deserve it.

quote:

[LBJM]

yes I don't think amber wants to leave either..
shes written and willow and tara comic for crying out loud!!

shes the best thing the show has to offer.
I wish somebody that works on the show would just step up and say no shes not gonna die!
they've said it before why not now?
LBJM

[Karzia]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MadeinNZ:

* I don't think I quite realised how important the W/T relationship was to the gay community (I knew it was important - just not how much). I have learnt heaps over the last couple of days. Thanks.

[/B]

---

Thats because the Gay community has so few good role modles in the media. Lets hope that Joss and TPTB choose to keep them.

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Ad astea per astaquote:

[tommo]

Darth Vader. Uh huh.

Zahir, the reason why I don't think that will work is because Willow is better than that. Darth Vader never had a relationship with Tara, for one thing. Darth Vader was seduced by the Dark Side for his own glory and elevation to powerful status.

Willow's black magic use isn't about the power. For her, it's a gut emotional reaction to something devastatingly horrid.

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You know I've been through hell...Joss can't you see, there'll be nothing left of me. You made me believe...

[xita]

HOw could Amber go to ripper if her character was dead. It is in the same universe.

[MyStrangersFace]

History repeats itself. This time last year I was suffering through Xena Warrior Princess (XWP) spoilers that said Xena would be killed off in the series finale. XWP fans suffered a cruel slap in the face when those spoilers came true. Now here I am, one year later, suffering through spoilers that say Tara will be killed off this season. What is it with me? Maybe I should give up on TV! I'm hoping for a "time reset" ending, but after XWP I just feel cynical.

I may be in the minority, but I think a show's fans should have some influence. Yes, TPTB own & make the product, but the fans give them that creative forum. If we don't watch, they don't have a series. So, how could they do this to us? How could they write a BSD (regardless of who dies) and expect us to consider it good drama? I don't get it. I didn't get it with XWP and I don't get it now.

I don't know about Joss. I've only been watching Buffy a few months & am trying to catch up on past seasons, as well as the 6th season. I know I trusted XWP creator Rob Tapert and he lied through his teeth about the XWP finale. Maybe Joss is different. I hope so. I'd hate to be disappointed two years in a row.

[Lijdrec]

My apologies if this thought has been expressed, I've only managed to read 75% of the last spoiler thread...

Well, BtVS has in part paid homage to the horror genre and a number of other flicks from other genres.

So why not use the dead-lesbian/evil-lesbian cliches to their utmost, and then turn 'em on their heads and beat 'em into the ground with Willow and Tara! Something triumphant, something wonderful, yes, something magical, but something that we have not been able to wrap our minds around yet....

Think of the worst example in film that you can and then consider how you'd use it to write the ending you desire....

[Legs]

I don't believe this 'Amber wants to leave the show' thing. Where are you taking this from? I haven't seen her doing other thing but saying how happy she was for being on the show and seeing her character growing, etc... If she wasn't that happy even if she kept it to herfself she wouldn't have that much enthusiasm to talk about the show.

:-** & [ ]s
Legs

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Joss can kiss my pissed off ass!!

[indiepop]

okay, here's another opinion to add to the masses (it's very long, sorry in advance):

the more i think about the anya reversal scenario, the more it makes sense. but not in an easy, dallas- it was only a dream, way but where everyone is aware of what has transpired. here's my reasoning:

1) growing up. supposedly the theme of the season. nothing makes you grow up faster than knowing you've f*cked up. you learn from your mistakes.
a)willow- if knew that she was capable of she would learn something about herself. she would see "super willow" in the way we all saw her early this season-"corrupt willow". she never really hit bottom. i mean yeah dawn broke her arm, well xander broke his arm because she unleashed a troll in triangle, didn't seem to freak her then. if knowing black magic would lead you to kill another person (no matter how extenuating the circumstances) pretty much nails that addiction coffin shut dontcha think?
b)xander- still very immature, i mean you don't have to look further than OAFA and his dealings w/ willow to see that he doesn't really get what growing up's about. i think willow and xander both kind of give themselves a 'get out of jail free' card in terms of a lot of stuff because they help buffy to save the world. i mean a lot of kittens have discussed the shoddy way xander takes anya for granted. if anya was willing to sacrifice her life for him when he wasn't even able to commit to her- that's gotta stare you straight in the face right? what he gave up on because he was scared? that anya, who everyone thought to be the most selfish, would save xander who always claimed unselfishness as his greatest quality? that'll make a man outta you.
c) buffy- all this season i've just wanted to slap buffy and say wake up! yes giles was the father figure but buffy was the leader. not just because she's the slayer but also because buffy the person was born to be a leader. i think back to stuff like the monologue at the end of checkpoint, that's who buffy is to me. if things got so bad that she can wake up and say 'okay enough' i have a second chance- i'm gonna do what i was born to do, that's when she'll fulfill her own prophecy.
d)spike- well i'm not gonna delve into the whole is spike truly good debbate. but if you notice spike has never really done anything unselfishly (that i can remember) but he's still likeable. but he's a vampire. i think the question of what would he do if there was no chip has come accross every character's mind including his. well, if they all saw that he'd return to his killer ways i think it would remind everyone, including him, of what he is and always shall be. he'll need to grow up and either be good for the sake of being good itself instead of to get buffy to love him or be done with it.
e)anya- this would be the ultimate in growing up. i think everyone's always underestimated anya. but she's never karmically redeemed herself for all the pain she has caused in the world. nor has she ever really displayed any remorse. i think if she saw the pain caused by one of her wishes and realized what these wishes meant and then sacrificed herself, well debt repaid. arc complete.
f)tara- well, tara doesn't need to grow up. tara's perfect

2) logistics- okay, xander's left anya at the altar. i've never been stood up at the altar, but i'm pretty much thinking that you don't come back from that. like where do you go from that? friends? once you're alienated from the core scooby gang, if that alienation is open ended it's an untenable situation. i mean the only time the s/o has stuck around after a breakup is cordelia (i'm not counting angel in s3 because they ultimately got back together). after the wish what did cordelia do? she just popped in once an episode or so to trade zingers with xander. this is mostly because she was conracted and to launch her onto angel. what will anya do next season?
TARA: hey. i came to buy toadstool.
ANYA: here you go. i want my money!
TARA: how are you?
ANYA: good
TARA: gotta go

TARA exits
i guess that's pretty much what's been going on for anya this season but you get what i mean.

so for these two reasons and others i haven't thought of yet, the reversed death of tara and all the other grossness predicted as part of an anya vengeance demon self-sacrifice isn't cop out storytelling. it is the ultimate mirror in which the characters can look into the worst of their souls and decide to grow into someone better an arc to be completed in s7.

plus on the w/t tip. if you were willow and you got tara back after seeing her die, would you let like a second go by without being all over the girl? *shrug* i am an incurable optimist

remember how when we heard the w/t breakup news and were devastated but it turned out in the long run to be good for them as individuals to grow and realized what their relationship means? if i am right, this could be good in the long run.

take heart kittens. tara survived a hell god. she's large with the butch when it comes down to it.

alexis

[This message has been edited by indiepop (edited March 11, 2002).]

[Willowlicious]

That sounds very plausible to me. Mabbyjen did make it sound like Ripper was in the cards for Amber. That's clearly not the case now and it appears she wants and indeed is staying. Because why, oh why, oh why, would Amber want to devote time to writing a comic devoted to W/T if it ended so horribly and permanently? It seems like it would be depressing as hell to write and what W/T fan would want to buy it? It doesn't seem like a project Amber would bother with. I can't think of a single reason to do it unless she's coming back. It would waste her time and it wouldn't sell.

And AGAIN with the convention appearances this summer. If Tara actually dies for good, people are going to be coming up to her in tears and are going to be angry (not at her) about the death and are going to want to know why it happened. Did you want to leave? Did they kick you off? I'm gay and I'm devastated! How could they make Willow evil? Please tell me you're coming back (SOB!)! The feelings about this storyline are going to be very intense if it is not reversed. If I were Amber I wouldn't want to go out and take the brunt of the emotion (by that I mean tears and confusion and so many questions) for something I didn't cause. Why should she be on the front lines for that?

Because she's coming back, that's why.

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 11, 2002).]

[LBJM]

quote:

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Originally posted by tommo:

Willow's black magic use isn't about the power. For her, it's a gut emotional reaction to something devastatingly horrid.

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yeah it was starting to get out of control willow how many times did tara ask her to stop? a lot of times. willow used it on tara. that was really bad. tara had no choice but to let willow go. willow is finding her way back its not easy to be redreemed from something a person does wrong. I thikn the real reason for willow letting the black magicks take her over well to feel useful.. shes feels a lot of guilt for when she cant help buffy in the field, but shes does the research for buffy the thing she cant live without.
LBJMquote:

[Wiccagrrl]

Lijdrec, I hope that's what is happening- that Joss & Co are hoping to turn the cliche on its head.

Of course, with the worst examples I can think of, and especially with W/T, if I were gonna rewrite them... I simply wouldn't kill the character off.

[Lijdrec]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wiccagrrl:
Of course, with the worst examples I can think of, and especially with W/T, if I were gonna rewrite them... I simply wouldn't kill the character off.

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I'm hoping that is where the mind of Joss Whedon comes into play, the subtle twist, drawing you in and then suprising you without seeing it coming.....I think I'm going to swear off Spoilers, starting now! Gotta have hope and want to preserve it, spoilers be damned, DeKnight might be right! Bye!

*edited because I hate bad grammar!*

[This message has been edited by Lijdrec (edited March 11, 2002).]quote:

[VampNo1]

Why does it seem the writers are making Tara the poster girl for suffering. Her family at least mentally abused her with the lie about turning into a demon, she protects Dawn and her reward is to be brain-sucked by Glory, she tries to tell Willow about her concerns in delving into too much dark magic, and then Willow uses a forget spell on her twice, and finally W&T rediscover their love only to be taken horribly away by a brutal death. I really believe Joss has too much love for the W&T relationship, and the positive messages this relationship has sent to us viewers for almost 3 years to blow it up so cruelly by the worst cliche in the world in the end. Willow and Tara should be allowed to overcome all the adversity they face, and show us that in the end true-love can win. Because to me the other message does a diservice to the characters of W&T and to us as viewers who watch this program.

[morgan1707]

Steve DeKnight is obviously saying "stay away from those nasty spoilers" because he doesn't want us to be spoiled. He said it himself, he cannot confirm or deny anything - if you're writer on the show, then you aren't supposed to reveal things about it because you could get fired for it.

[Ari]

I would have to go against the grain and say I believe they intended this plot twist all season long, maybe even since last season.

Okay, going by the premise that you're planning to have a part of the season which is going to be un-wished - So you are free to explore every dark, twisted little crevice you want to with your characters to your evil heart's desire because you have that get out of jail free card. What do you do?

You take the character that is the most calming, mature and stable influence on everyone, and one half of the relationship that has been shown to be the purest example of True Love, and kill her senselessly. This effectively f*cks up Buffy, who had just begun to seriously bond with Tara, Dawn, who sees Tara as a mother figure and has abandonment issues to begin with, and of course, it just sends Willow and her power issues careening right over the deep end.

If your plan is to screw up everything as bad as it can be screwed, that really is a most logical place to begin. Tara is the one with the fewest issues, she's already proven herself to be caring and selfless, even sacrificing her mind to Glory rather than betray Dawn. She's had a terrible, painful life where even Willow, herself, has hurt her. She's loving and compassionate, and just a general sweetie. Of all the characters on the show right now, she's the one who least deserves to die.

So naturally, given the premise, she's the first one you kill. What better signifier of the wrongness of the events as they have been set in motion?

And then in the end, when everything is reversed, it is her reappearance which is the surest sign that things are going to be right again.

Ari

[Sela]

Drunk, drunk, drunk...blissfully drunk now!!! Yagermeister...is that how you spell it? God bless the Germans and their penchant for strong alcohol!

Tara and Willow are snuggling right now. They're kissing and loving one another. At least in my little universe. Screw everyone else and their "spoilers." Until I see definitive proof, I will continue to believe Willow and Tara are spooning, whispering sweet nothings, and stealing magnificent, lingering kisses. Woo and hoo.

I've drunk entirely too much today. Anyone ready for another brew?

Willow and Tara are destined to be together. If I have to write fics to make it so, then I shall. Joss & co. be damned!!!

--Sela

[tommo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by LBJM:
yeah it was starting to get out of control willow how many times did tara ask her to stop? a lot of times.

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Yes it was getting out of control. But that's the story of addiction. Sometimes you don't know how bad it is until it's too late.

quote:

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willow used it on tara. that was really bad. tara had no choice but to let willow go. willow is finding her way back its not easy to be redreemed from something a person does wrong. I thikn the real reason for willow letting the black magicks take her over well to feel useful.. shes feels a lot of guilt for when she cant help buffy in the field, but shes does the research for buffy the thing she cant live without.

---

All good points. But I think you might find a more in-depth discussion of Willow's misuse of black magic in this thread .

I hope that helps.

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You know I've been through hell...Joss can't you see, there'll be nothing left of me. You made me believe...quote:quote:

[BBOvenGuy]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ari:
I believe they intended this plot twist all season long, maybe even since last season.

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You may have a point. I've said elsewhere that it doesn't matter whether Tara is male or female in this particular instance. Her purpose - in this particular situation - is to act as the trigger that unleahes Willow's rage, which is Willow's most vulnerable point.

The same scenario would have worked if Seth Green had never left Buffy and it was Oz who got killed. He was expressing concern about Willow's magical dabblings early in Season 4, and it's conceivable to think a similar storyline could have been written with Oz in the role that's now going to Tara.

Willow has been the angriest of the Scoobies for a long time, so it's certainly possible that this is the path Joss always had in mind for her. If that's true, I feel like it might actually be a good thing, because it's very possible that Joss knows the way out for Willow as well, and it could very well be a way out that keeps Tara alive and in her life.

That's where I'm aiming my hopes now, anyway.

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited March 11, 2002).]quote:

[Genea]

Sorry,didn't mean this to be a rant but here it is...

I really want love to conquer all and not have T&W be yet another lesbian couple icked up by the media. Will it ever be safe to be a lesbian in the media or anywhere else? The main reason I started watching BTVS was the whole W/T dynamic(of course I later became addicted)but,now I'm devastated. As a lebian should I rely on TV to have positive role models no and I don't but it sure as hell has been good to have something besides Queer As Folk. I love Willow and Taras' dynamic, they are the dynamic duo. Every Tuesday I get to see two people who love each other as much as my wife and I do and I dread that being taken away. I hope this is just a writer's way of getting me to be spoiler-free, I don't know. I was having such a good day and now I'm unbelievably sad, I don't think I can watch Buffy it it goes this way. I'll just rely on my fellow kitties and my wife for updates. I think thats all I have to say about that except be strong kitties, we'll get thru this.

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Sugarloaf
Mad at Joss and ME but I'll be a kitten forever.