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General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

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General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby Kilopto » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:06 am

Ow.

I was so happy about the end of ep 18. And now this...I didn't know losing a fictional character could hurt so much. God...It hurts. It really really hurts. I don't know if I could watch the show after this. I love Buffy, everything about it. But Willow and Tara are something special, there's nothing like it on tv. They are the only lesbian couple I can see on tv in a loving relationship. I don't want to lose that!

Oh god...and just when I said I was off spoilers for good...At least I have fair warning...but nothing could prepare me for this. Nothing.

Thank you Michelle for posting this, it's heartbeaking, but I appreciate knowing ahead of time.

Kilopto
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:07 am

Okay. What a fun way to start the morning.

I got wind of this news a couple of days ago and have been digging for more info and trying to form a response. Here goes nothing...

There was a post at the Bronze Beta that would appear to cover the same ground that Michelle has given us. It goes into some details about what Michelle refers to as "a lot of devastating storylines out in the open." Here it is:

quote:
Spike screws anya (drunk) , xander comes in to apologize, sees them
anya goes vengence demon and goes rip****
xander finds out about buffy and spike
xander goes rip****
Spike goes to get his chip out and goes rip****
Tara is shot in willows room after they have post makeup sex by warren. Willow finds her body and goes rip****

Willow kills warren and then
buffy goes rip****


Anyone still want to watch this?
3 evil scoobs, all the ships broken for good.
Tara dead for no good reason...
Buffy wounded
xander ******

So much for a light ep..


Now then, I have two rays of hope to offer:

Possibility #1 - The spoilers are fake.

No, I'm not suggesting that Michelle is lying to us. I know her well enough to know she doesn't do that. She's presenting her information in good faith. What I am suggesting is that her source material is bogus, a phony write-up concocted by the folks at Mutant Enemy to hide the real storyline and to smoke out leaks.

Why do I think that? Simple. What we see here is way over the top. It's senseless. It looks like all the Buffy writers got together and said, "Okay, what can we do to alienate every single viewer we have?" All you need is Dawn selling crack out of the back room at the Magic Box and the tableau would be complete.

Consider the case of Willow and Tara, which is after all the most important element of all this - to us, anyway:

Dead Tara

There's no good reason to kill off Tara. Yes, Joss Whedon is cruel and likes to put his characters through pain - but he always plays fair. Pain is always the natural result of the characters' actions. It's never inflicted randomly. The only reason to kill off Tara would be to punish Willow. But punish her for what? Her addiction? She's already been punished for that. She's already been working her way back. Is this her reward? Take away the person she'd been hoping to win again just at the moment she wins her? That's not Joss's style.

Also, killing Tara would be a betrayal of everything Joss has said about the Willow/Tara relationship over the past two years. It would be a betrayal of all the people he's said he's so proud to have affected in that time. It would contradict everything that everyone at Mutant Enemy has been saying for the entire season.

In other words, it makes no sense.

Willow kills Warren

This is wrong for many reasons.

First, it completely invalidates the nerd-trio arc that's been going on all year. "Gee, it only took Willow five minutes to kill Warren. He must not have been that tough. Why didn't she do it in Episode 5 and then we could have had a real Big Bad all year?"

Second, it completely invalidates Willow's story arc that's been going on all year. Whipping out the dark magics and going after payback is exactly what Willow did a year ago in "Tough Love." Has she not changed at all? Has she learned nothing?

Third, all this is supposed to happen in Episode 20. What are they going to do for the final two episodes? Take on Willow as the Big Bad? What happens to Alyson Hannigan's contract for next year? Willow becomes a villain and a murderer - she can't exactly go back to the Scooby Gang, can she? Yeah, yeah, I know... "It's a cliffhanger and Willow comes back as the Big Bad of Season 7." Not likely...


We know that Joss & co. have put out fake spoilers in the past. "Accidentally" leaking false information is something done in business all the time. It's how you find the leaks and plug them. Given the talent that the Buffy writing staff has, it wouldn't take more than a couple of days for them to put an entire fake script together, if that's what they wanted to do.

I realize I have no proof for anything I'm saying. I'm going entirely on my writer's instincts here, and I very well could be wrong. But my gut instinct is that this information isn't real.

And if it is, there's still...


Possibility #2 - It's real, but they take it back.

How? Simple. Anya's a vengeance demon. In other words, she's a Walking Reset Button. All someone has to do is say, "I wish this had never happened," and blammo! Everything's better. There's also the possibility that Willow could turn back time. She's joked about being able to do it in the past.

Either of these options would be really bad, though. It's the stuff of bad fanfic and Star Trek episodes. I suppose it could be made very dramatic and sacrificial and stuff, but it would still look really lame.


Then there's the possibility that it's all true and they won't take it back, in which case they'll have to work really hard to keep me as an audience member. This is betrayal, pure and simple, of everything Buffy has been about for the past 5+ years. This season has been difficult enough already, and an episode like this would pretty much convince me to walk away.

Before that happens, though, we need to keep digging. Let's find out for sure what's going to happen. If nothing else, it'll help us prepare better.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
quote:

BBOvenGuy
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby The Partyman » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:09 am

I have gone all strange and conflicty.

Logically, the Spoiler Addicttm part of me wants to be glad for new spoilage.
However the W/T lover part of me cannot stop shaking and I really don't like that at all.

The Partyman
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby Willowlicious » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:11 am

April, I agree that it makes little sense. Don't get me wrong, my heart is breaking and preparing for the worst. I am literally sick to my stomach. But my head is telling me this makes no sense. Just like it's been telling me that throughout this wild ride of "Tara dies" spoilers all season. Now, I've been a little concerned about the quickness and easiness of W/T's reconciliation lately. Bob pointed out that it was a bit too easy and that there would be more rough waters ahead. HOWEVER, this particular spoiler is like every cliche we've ever laughed at rolled into one. I would be embarrassed to claim credit for it if I was an ME writer. In general, this story means lesbian dies, lover gets revenge. Yawning now! In specific this story would mean, Tara--the world's sweetest person--is senselessly killed and Willow--possibly the world's second sweetest person before this season--is a cliched grief-wallowing murderer. I'm just waiting to hear that we're going to have "Ghost Tara" next season or something. Whatever. A story like that does nothing but hurt people. It has no point or moral lesson that hasn't already been achieved on Buffy with more clever and sensitive storylines. My head tells me that this can't be taken at face value. It is either wrong entirely (actual ME planted spoiler--I'm not questioning you Michelle), or it is somehow going to be reversed. If not, I'm going to go and find some other writers to use as role models as I go about my screenwriting endeavors, because I NEVER want to be that lame. It's not just Tara possibly dying that is troublesome, it's the whole damn thing. If it is true, thanks ME for appealing to the lowest common denominator and fucking the people who like to think and love and believe. I'm sure Beavis and Butthead will just LOVE this storyline. Congratulations.

Shit. I said I wouldn't get angry. Sigh.

EDITED TO ADD: BOB! Thank god you're here! I appreciate your calm, thoughtful response, as always.

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 09, 2002).]

Willowlicious
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby april » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:13 am

quote:
Originally posted by tommo:
Perhaps they can just drop his toaster on him when he's in the bath...

yeah ruth, i'm right with you there. you wanna buy the toaster and i'll fray the cord?

okay, no, i don't mean it either...quote:

april
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby supermus » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:19 am

I agree that there's still an ember of hope left here. My thinking all along was that this was a great big red herring sent out by ME, so maybe they took their plots a step furthur and sent out fake info. If it does happen I'll make an inspirational Tara montage for us, with the greatest Tara clips of the past few years with Fire and Rain and Bridge Over Troubled Water playing in the background.

Oh and as a footnote:
GODFUCKINGDAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, just had to get that out.

supermus
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:25 am

quote:
Originally posted by Willowlicious:
BOB! Thank god you're here! I appreciate your calm, thoughtful response, as always.

Good thing I didn't show you the earlier drafts.

I have learned one very valuable lesson from all this. Writers have a responsibility to their audiences. It's all well and good to be cynical and aloof and say all the fans who are upset with you should "get a life," but it's your writing that puts the fans into the position they're in. When you write, you reach out and exert influence over the people you're communicating with. You have to take that seriously, or you'll end up doing a lot of harm.

If I ever do get a series of my own - even if it's a book series and not a TV series - I promise I will never do something like what we're being told Joss & co. are about to do. You heard it here first.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
quote:

BBOvenGuy
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby DianaBouvier » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:30 am

quote:
Originally posted by The Partyman:
Thanks to Michelle for posting that information here before anywhere else.

I'm a regular at AnGeL X's Spoiler Board, which always has hordes of fans greedy for spoilers, pretty much all the time.

To deley posting thsi news to the C&S shows a much appreciated sensitivityto both the informationa and all of the Willow and Tara fans.

Terrible news. But thanks for being honest with us, AnGeL X


I agree Partyman. The first board I check is AngelX's and then the second one is the Kittens. If I had seen this on the C & S Spoiler before....

Just thanks AngelX.

quote:

DianaBouvier
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby SciFiAcid » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:32 am

Joss has just given into ever cliché he said he wouldn't.
SciFiAcid
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby ExtraT » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:32 am

quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
The only reason to kill off Tara would be to punish Willow. But punish her for what? Her addiction? She's already been punished for that. She's already been working her way back. Is this her reward? Take away the person she'd been hoping to win again just at the moment she wins her? That's not Joss's style.


There is one issue that was never resolved: the sacrifice in Bargaining. Killing Tara may well be a punishment for that.

quote:

ExtraT
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby Puff » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:33 am

I just don't know what has happened to the show, how the writers can do this to a show they should love and care about.

So I came up with a new mantra, hope you all like it.

------------------
Remember the kitten board mantra. Joss can go to hell.

Puff
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby SeanGaffney » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:37 am

OK, I appreciate the depression all round, I'm a bit depressed myself, but let's hold off on the Joss-bashing, Marti-bashing, etc till we see this all come to light. Work out that aggression in other ways. I recommend pie.

Mmmm... pie.

--SG
--not an agent of the American Pie Council

SeanGaffney
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby xita » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:38 am

Yes, i think it would be prudent to wait on that (the bashing of writers), till we hear a bit more. Then it will be free season.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 09, 2002).]

xita
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby yaya » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:38 am

this is very upsetting news...the question is why...i originally thought it was tara because her and willow had broken up and i didnt know if there was still a place for her on the show...but then we have the writers having tara make a connection to buffy showing us that tara is still a part of this show...so why do all that just to kill her...although i have been leary as of late...with all the w/t moments i started to wonder if this was all too good to be true...and it looks like it might be...i trust angelx because she has been dead on so far but i sincerely hope that she is wrong this time and that ME has sent false info...the worst thing to think about is how many times has joss truly killed a scooby....i mean they killed angel but then he came back....oz just left...riley just left...i dont know if i can really consider jenny calendar and kendra scooby members...so why do this to a character that joss has said numerous times that he loves...not to mention, we know that he loves amber...heres hoping that this info is wrong
yaya
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby willow_thebadasswitch » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:39 am

Thanks for the info AngelX. Much appreciated.

But this is disturbing... enough to make me crawl out of the Pens. And I'm not buying it. Maybe I'm just in denial. *sigh* I need a hug.

~Caro

willow_thebadasswitch
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby Popje » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:39 am

Well, it makes sense in a writerly way, having many of the plot threads come to a startling climax, tipped off by a nasty act of violence (remember Jenny). I also have to be so suspicious when ME takes a quiet character like Tara and goes out of their way to make her so much more likeable this year to everyone. But, everyone should keep in mind it's not over till it's over. Ep 20 would be the climax episode, 21 & 22 would have the denoument, and what that would be, is anyone's guess. If it is true, and the death is permanent. I'm sad for us all and for the character of Willow.
Popje
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:40 am

quote:
Originally posted by ExtraT:
There is one issue that was never resolved: the sacrifice in Bargaining. Killing Tara may well be a punishment for that.

Sorry to put this bluntly, but - that makes about as much sense as dropping a nuclear bomb on someone because they got a parking ticket.

And I agree - let's not bash Joss & Marti for things we're not sure about yet. Reserve judgement until all the facts are known. Believe me, if this episode goes through as described, Mutant Enemy is going to get a letter from me that will peel the paint off their walls - but it's not time to do that yet.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
quote:

BBOvenGuy
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby tommo » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:41 am

quote:
Originally posted by SeanGaffney:
OK, I appreciate the depression all round, I'm a bit depressed myself, but let's hold off on the Joss-bashing, Marti-bashing, etc till we see this all come to light. Work out that aggression in other ways.

I recommend killing kittens. The um, the handy way. The panty way.

And I plan on writing Joss a letter:

Dear Joss,

Thank you for killing off my favorite character in my favorite show. Thanks also for making my other favorite character evil. And hey! I'm a lesbian too! Woo hoo! Thanks for making me feel secure and positive about my sexuality!

Love,
Ms. Evil Dying Murdering Lesbian Cliche.

...

I'm so sorry for the bitterness. I don't know what else to do with it. Sigh.

------------------
You know I've been through hell...Joss can't you see, there'll be nothing left of me. You made me believe...
quote:

tommo
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby willow420 » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:43 am

Can't hold back. Must be angry. Feels the bitterness rising.

Where's my vodka and orange juice when I need it?

------------------
A.K.A. Liz

Heads will roll in due time!

willow420
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby Willows Puppy » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:43 am

Hi, everybody ....

.... I'm too sad to even form words now .. this is the WORST news imaginable ....

....this is the day I totally and finally (I've been critical about this season already) lost all faith in Joss, ME and BTVS .... a sad day indeed ....

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited March 09, 2002).]

Willows Puppy
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby Wiccagrrl » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:44 am

Bob, I too am glad you're here, with your logical thought. You can see how logical my first reaction was Frankly, this just makes no sense to me. I mean, seriously, as people have said, it's every punish-the-dykes cliche we've ever seen. If I wanted this message I'd be watching The Children's Hour, not Buffy.

Anyway, I'm desperately clinging to a last thread of hope, and wishin' and hopin' that the info is either bogus (no, I don't think Michelle would lie to us. Not about something like this. But I do think it's possible ME is spreading misinformation.) Or that this doesn't tell us the whole story. How sad is it that I'm almost hoping for a Dallas-type reset at this point? Sigh.

Ya know what *really* burns my butt about this? It gives the W/T haters precisely what they want. Ok, steadily moving from shock to denial/pissed. Acceptance is way, way far in the future. Joss, you just lost that Toaster Oven. Big time.

Wiccagrrl
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby Web Warlock » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:46 am

Well this is messed up.

I get all happy about a reunion. Get scared to death by a spoiler. Get reminded why I am such a cynic by Bob.

Ok. First things first.

AngelX. No one blames you or is going to hate you here, least of all me. You seemed very torn in your writing to give us this news and I am glad you did. I would much rather hear it from you than anyone else on the net. Least of all shrewish rumor mongers, that shall remain nameless. I have no doubt that you came to us in good faith.

Bob. Your propensity for both clear thinking and optimism (carefully measured optimism) continues to impress me. All I can say is that I hope you are right.

But. If worse comes to worse, what is the plan? I can wallow in grief (yes grief damnit, I loved this couple) or I can have a plan and a goal. I rather focus on that. I am not suggesting a letter writing campaign, a wholesale abandonment of the show, I am not suggesting anything at all.

I am at a loss.

I guess in the end all I am left with is,

Why?

Warlock.

------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
"I am invincible, I have no fears.
I am benevolent, I am the King of Beers!"

Web Warlock
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby april » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:47 am

at the risk of sounding like a deluded fool, i'm going to try and be a voice of optimism here. i want to have hope - although it's sounding more and more likely that tara will die, i just don't want to believe it's true. so consider this:

angel died at the end of S2...and then he came back in S3.

buffy died at the end of S5...and then she came back in S6.

we still have no idea what happens in episodes 21 and 22, and then we have all of season 7.

so while it seems unlikely, it's still possible that tara could come back.

either that, or i want to wake up on the day the wildfeed for ep 19 comes out, go to the kitty board, and realize it was all just an elaborate ruse.

anything but having to believe that joss and ME would want to have tara dead, willow evil, anya evil and spike evil yet again. where would that leave the show? it makes no sense.

april
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby morgan1707 » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:49 am

Seriously, I was never expecting it. We were told of a BSD ages ago, and nothing happened. Episode after episode went by, and nothing happened.

Then, this happens. It's completely out of the blue, and I seriously don't know what to make of it; it just doesn't make sense. Joss promised more misery - and I guess he's delivering, but not this much misery, please. We've all ready had Buffy's resurrection, Katrina's death this Season, and God know's what else will come to light before the end of Season 6.

morgan1707
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby Kendahl897 » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:50 am

It just doesn't make any sense. Joss has said repeatedly that he had no plans to send Tara anywhere. That thier relationship would continue. And that Tara was a big part of the heart of the show. Why on earth would you destroy the "only" lesbian relationship on television? IT just makes no sense. And Amber just bought a new house. Why would you by a house if you didn't know you'd have a job next season? Aargh, I'm so upset and depressed? Last season I read this big spoiler that Anya was going to die at the hands of Glory. Story sounded good, but it never happened. Has AngelX ever been wrong before?
Kendahl897
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby Jamraza » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:55 am

Damn... If this is true... Ugh...
I'm upset, pissed off and wanting to know more/get it confirmed
Jamraza
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby morgan1707 » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:55 am

quote:
Originally posted by Kendahl897:
It just doesn't make any sense. Joss has said repeatedly that he had no plans to send Tara anywhere. That thier relationship would continue. And that Tara was a big part of the heart of the show. Why on earth would you destroy the "only" lesbian relationship on television? IT just makes no sense. And Amber just bought a new house. Why would you by a house if you didn't know you'd have a job next season? Aargh, I'm so upset and depressed? Last season I read this big spoiler that Anya was going to die at the hands of Glory. Story sounded good, but it never happened. Has AngelX ever been wrong before?

True, definitely true. This doesn't sound like Buffy, doesn't it?

AngelX, by her own admission, has said she has been wrong before (I believe she duped by the Primeval spoilers in Season 4).

And picking up on what April said, this might not mean the end of Tara. Other characters have died and come back to life. But that's even becoming a cliché now. quote:

morgan1707
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby april » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:59 am

quote:
Originally posted by morgan1707:
And picking up on what April said, this might not mean the end of Tara. Other characters have died and come back to life. But that's even becoming a cliché now.

at this point, sad to say, i'd be happy with a sad cliche if it brings tara back. i'd be happy with the lamest, dallas-like "it was all just a bad dream" plot device. i'd be happy with the cop-out, "alternate universe created by demon anya" plot device. they're all horrible and cliched and far below ME's standards up until now. but anything is better than having these spoilers come true. anything.quote:

april
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby Legs » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:59 am

I hope AngelX was wrong before, but from what I've heard she's always gotten it right so... we can only be really pissed off (I know I am!) and hope they'll use the lame Anya being a demon again excuse to make as if nothing ever happened.

Until then Joss can kiss my...

:-** & [ ]s
one VERY pissed off kitten

[This message has been edited by Legs (edited March 09, 2002).]

Legs
 


General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 8

Postby bella » Sat Mar 09, 2002 11:59 am

New poster, frequent lurker. Come to bring my favourite kittens my thoughts, and a (possible) ray of hope.

"Willow tries to revive her, but because Tara is not taken away by mystical powers, Willow does not have what it takes at the time to bring her back." - AngelX's spoilage

The way this spoiler is worded is interesting. I've seen enough spoiler posts to think there's something in it - they're always worded very carefully so as not to give any misleading impressions. Note the words "at the time"? Willow isn't powerful enough /now/ to resurrect Tara, but maybe some day she will be. I hope so anyway.

bella
 

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