The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe Willow & Tara Forever

by **AdamW/T** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 1:52 pm

As much as I'd like to believe this isn't true I do think this is going to happen unless there are VERY last minute changes, Angel-X is an extremely reliable source of spoilers so I would have no reason to think this is untrue. I am going to hold out hope until I actually see it on the screen but for the last 2 and half seasons I always had this in the back of my mind. Amber had never been added to the opening credits which is NOT a good sign for the character (it made her more disposable). The first person who came to mind when I heard of a potential BSD was Tara. As much I hope and pray it isn't so I think this is where it's headed.

I completely understand and sympathize with everyone who is upset with these turn of events but the Willow going bad because of magic story has been foreshadowed since season 3. I think there is potential here for this particular story but it is now hampered by Tara's death being what instigated it. I had a sick feeling this whole season Willow's magic days were far from over and now I can pretty much confirm that feeling. There is really no way to take the power away from her unless they find a binding spell of some sort. We saw the darkening of Willow's character very early on in the season on several occasions...I was expecting this to happen and in some ways looking forward to it. I am just so pissed this has to be done at the expense of Tara. It saddens me not only that Tara is going to die but that a number of people feel they will have to leave wathcing the show because of it. I'm not ready to give up on the show because there is still so much that can be done with the characters whether Tara is here or not. I am still holding onto hope they bring her back or it does not come true but the possibility of death is part of what makes the show appealing to me....no one is safe.

I was hoping the death was going to wind up being Spike. I think his character has served its purpose on the show. He has tried to redeem himself whether for selfish reasons or not and he got what he wanted which was Buffy (even if it lasted for only a short while). Spike is never going to be "good" unless they give him his soul back (which with 2 powerful witches around I never understood why they never brought it up but then again a little too much like Angel there). Spike has been neutered in just about every sense....if he is to continue on the show he needs to lose the chip and then we will see where he really stands. It will cause Buffy to make some hard choices which the chip always kept her from having to make. Buffy and Spike will never have a future....in the end she is going to be with Angel (if she doesn't die before hand).

by **supermus** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 1:58 pm

Remember the invisibility ray? Willow probably still has it, and the diamond is supposed to have quasi-mystical quantam properties. Maybe that could be used to turn back time. (I know, grasping at straws here)

by **jessan15** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:00 pm

Adam,

Wrong place, wrong time...

And there is an explanation for everything, we just have to wait to get it.

Now that sucks.

------------------
Love will find a way.

by **Katharyn** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:01 pm

quote:
Originally posted by supermus:
(I know, grasping at straws here)

Ain't we all? And bless you for it.

Fortunately some straws are a great deal more resilient than others... now if I could just figure out which was which.

Katharyn

------------------
You hear that baby?

[This message has been edited by Katharyn (edited March 10, 2002).]quote:

by **Pee888wee** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:01 pm

Wow. A shock to say the least, I thought this rumor had been laid to rest. I agree with many of you that if this does come to pass, that ME will have aliented many BtVS fans. Especially after getting them back together only to have them ripped apart in such a brutal way? Would ME really be that harsh? But it just doesn't seem right to me. I have 3 explanations that I'm hanging onto.
1) This is a false spoiler ME has sent out to discredit spoiler sites. Knowing the support Tara has among fans works to their advantage. Just look at the uproar it's caused so far. Then to find out it's not true? The spoiler sites lose their credibility in a big way.
2) It's not really Tara. Jonathan disguised himself as Katrina, what if he assumes Taras identity and is killed while he "is" her?
3) It happens in an alternate reality. I seem to remember some spoilers that said Anya would turn into a VD this season. Once on purpose, once by mistake? Anyways, maybe Tara dies in an AR when Anya grants someones wish. Although this would be too "been there, done that" I would gladly accept it if it meant Tara's death was not "real".
In the meantime, sharing the love and the hope.

------------------
Pee

by **SeanGaffney** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:07 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Pee888wee:
I seem to remember some spoilers that said Anya would turn into a VD this season.

So this could all be Anya's syphilitic delusions, then?

Ow. Sorry. I know, bad Sean. Owowow...

--SG
quote:

by **supermus** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:09 pm

Man, look at this thread. We had the old one for a week and it got 13 pages. We have this one for two days and it gets 26. Pretty soon it'll be outgrowing its box. BTW, if you wanna lift your spirits, try lurking, but not posting, cuz ya might give something away, in the spoiler-free thread. They're still bright and cheery there.

by **xita** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:10 pm

Sean I want to read filk,

The scullybus is coming...

by **Willowlicious** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:14 pm

Steve DeKnight is writing Ep. 19? I keep reading little bits and pieces about him being sick over on the Bronze. Maybe it's the, I don't know, GUILT eating away at him! No, see, if he's the one offing Tara then I'm even more sure that it's somehow going to be reversed. I don't think he would have made that joke otherwise.

While I've been personally talking up Anya being the BSD (if there HAD to be one at all) in one form or another since around late December, I don't think it will necessarily be as simple or "lame" as having her destroy her pendant and making things "all better." Joss has always been able to take a horrible cliche and turn it on its head. I mean, I didn't think anyone could use the old "let's give 'er a younger sibling" trick meaningfully and yet I was horrified to find I bought the Dawn storyline hook, line and sinker. Damn him!

If Anya or someone reverses the terrible events that apparently befall all the Scoobs, I think there will be a big 'ole twist. I tend to think that people would remember their actions and have to carry the emotional baggage. Someone (Shawn?) asked if we could forgive the Scoobs for their horrible actions if they are reversed? Well, if we couldn't forgive the mere knowledge that they are capable of those acts, how would we feel if we had to watch them all next season having actually, permanently done them? I think the point of having the characters act through these horrors and then reversing them would be to show us all what we're capable of given the wrong choices in the right circumstances. Like I said, I think the ending will be very clever and something we may not have thought of, but I think there will be an emotional kicker that makes people think rather than allowing them to wallow in an obvious and over-wrought storyline that leaves Tara dead and everyone else destroyed.

As for Anya, I really think she is the "BSD" but I'm not convinced she won't be back next season in some capacity.

Anyway, here I am, once again saying that I'm confident that Tara is not a goner and that the death spoiler is not the whole story. As has been mentioned repeatedly, it looks like unthinkable things are in store for everyone on the show and, if they were to remain unchanged, there wouldn't be a show left.

Be brave Kitties!

by **The Godfather** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:22 pm

But could you turn your back on the horrific nature of what Spike could so easily do? If he were to attempt to rape Buffy..I'd never again be ok with them sharing personal space..it'd be creepy and very icky to me..

Wouldn't you demand instant help for Willow? Everytime she got angry..I'd get nervous..

It seems to me that none of us would be ok with everyone just taking a deep breath and going wow..that was weird.

-S.

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 10, 2002).]

by **xita** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:27 pm

Well that would be the point, that they are capable of this and that you live with that. That being grown up is not about "NOT" having the temptation but having it and dealing with it. I don't know.. again, I'l buy anything.

by **The Godfather** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:32 pm

Rape is more than just temptation. In some ways it creeps me out more than the concept of murder. It would also definitively prove to me what Spike is and that would call for his staking. He's been allowed to survive for a long time already despite various heinous actions but this one would seem to demand justice.

Also, there are consequences for every action. There should be at least. And while I don't want Tara to suffer those..I'd feel a bit uncomfortable with another free pass..

For Will or Spike..

What can I say..I'm conflicted.

-Shawn

by **schmutty** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:34 pm

I loved Willow before Tara entered the picture but now the prospect of a Tara-less future just makes that picture seem so much emptier.

God, I hope the rumors are wrong.

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited March 10, 2002).]

by **Sheila** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:34 pm

Something has been bothering me about all this. Up to "Hell's Bells", Amber was in 13 episodes, right? Now...

Is she going to be in "Normal Again" (17)?

That would be 14...

We know she will be in "Entrophy" (18).

15...

Probably not in "Seeing Red" (19)?

She will be in the episode-that-shall-not-be-named 20, AFAIK.

16...

We still have 21 and 22. And they *have* to bring her back.

I know that she signed for 16 eps last season too, and ended up doing 18. So I think we could guess this is going to happen again, right? Of course, my mathemathics could be completely off too.

You know what really, really got me this afternoon? I realized how bad all this affected me when, for the first time in ages, I didn't go to the Pen's board when I woke up to check on new stories and updates... :-(

I just didn't have the heart to do it... oh my...

by **xita** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:36 pm

Shawn, I really don't want to get into this but spike is a vampire who has killed thousands of people, this isn't really against his nature.

WARNING TO ALL! DO NOT make any new threads that deal with Tara's death or Willow's fallout. It all stays in the spoiler thread.

by **supermus** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:38 pm

quote:
Probably not in "Seeing Red" (19)?

Actually, she HAS to be in 19. She actually dies at the end of 19, and it's a cliffhanger continued into 20, so she'd probably be in 20. Where is this Spike raping Buffy stuff coming from?

[This message has been edited by supermus (edited March 10, 2002).]quote:

by **pandora** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:40 pm

quote:
Originally posted by AdamW/T:
As much as I'd like to believe this isn't true I do think this is going to happen unless there are VERY last minute changes, Angel-X is an extremely reliable source of spoilers so I would have no reason to think this is untrue. I am going to hold out hope until I actually see it on the screen but for the last 2 and half seasons I always had this in the back of my mind. Amber had never been added to the opening credits which is NOT a good sign for the character (it made her more disposable). The first person who came to mind when I heard of a potential BSD was Tara. As much I hope and pray it isn't so I think this is where it's headed.
I completely understand and sympathize with everyone who is upset with these turn of events but the Willow going bad because of magic story has been foreshadowed since season 3. I think there is potential here for this particular story but it is now hampered by Tara's death being what instigated it. I had a sick feeling this whole season Willow's magic days were far from over and now I can pretty much confirm that feeling. There is really no way to take the power away from her unless they find a binding spell of some sort. We saw the darkening of Willow's character very early on in the season on several occasions...I was expecting this to happen and in some ways looking forward to it. I am just so pissed this has to be done at the expense of Tara. It saddens me not only that Tara is going to die but that a number of people feel they will have to leave wathcing the show because of it. I'm not ready to give up on the show because there is still so much that can be done with the characters whether Tara is here or not. I am still holding onto hope they bring her back or it does not come true but the possibility of death is part of what makes the show appealing to me....no one is safe.
I was hoping the death was going to wind up being Spike. I think his character has served its purpose on the show. He has tried to redeem himself whether for selfish reasons or not and he got what he wanted which was Buffy (even if it lasted for only a short while). Spike is never going to be "good" unless they give him his soul back (which with 2 powerful witches around I never understood why they never brought it up but then again a little too much like Angel there). Spike has been neutered in just about every sense....if he is to continue on the show he needs to lose the chip and then we will see where he really stands. It will cause Buffy to make some hard choices which the chip always kept her from having to make. Buffy and Spike will never have a future....in the end she is going to be with Angel (if she doesn't die before hand).

O come on!! Ik know that people are hurt by this heartbreaking news that Tara is the one who's gonna die, but please don't ventilate your anger on the peroxide vamp!! he's going though a lot of heart ache already. I just can't understand why you guys need another scooby death to replace Tara's. Nobody should die in the first place, I rather believe that AngelX was somehow tricked by the mighty Joss and got her hands on fake spoilers!! I don't want Amber to leave the show, not in this kind of way. I don't want Anya to go, for she is the only one that was capable to still make me laugh with her rude but dead to honest comments in this fucked up season. I denfinetely don't want Spike to go, but ik rather see the writers stop messing with his character and give him back some backbone. For all the characters really, I've got jsut enoguh with the writing style of these pencil suckers; the whole I dunno where I wanne go with them so i better throw in some angst to keep them interested story arc is starting TO PISS ME OFF>

quote:

by **willog** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:42 pm

Ok, I heard on the bronze that Amber's signed up to do the same number of eps next season as she did this season, or at least as a reacurring - please please please please let them be right. On JossBtVS chat there's this thing that the person who dies has something to do with the number 4, and everything that people keep saying is tara, but they might be wrong, they have to be wrong, or else - grrrr arrg!!!

...thats a threat by the way!

*sob*

by **The Godfather** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:44 pm

Xita: I think we're already on the same page here..

-S.

by **Willowlicious** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:45 pm

quote:
It seems to me that none of us would be ok with everyone just taking a deep breath and going wow..that was weird.

I have no idea how this is going to actually play out, so I can't comment on precisely how it will make me feel. I was just trying to say that having the characters given a peek into the darkest rooms of their souls and being given a way out is much preferrable to me than having the characters go through with their darkest actions and actually becoming the worst part of themselves. I don't see how destroying all the Scoobs is going to help prove anything. What? They all got pushed to the very edge and jumped? Like I said, end of show. Like Bob has said, that's just post-modern.

BtVS has always been about at trying to do the right thing even when the characters have gotten very lost. Redemption has always been a strong theme. The key to this whole spoiler, for me, is Willow. Because if Willow loses Tara in this senseless manner and then immediately reverts back to black magick, she will be forever lost. What could possibly save her? Nothing. If she doesn't just end up a black spot on the carpet like Sam suggested, she would surely have no reason left to live and be a black soul. And, honestly, who's to say Willow isn't still in grave danger as things are now? Maybe she needs to see herself taunting Warren with his dead girlfriend in order to see that she needs to NEVER touch magick again. Who knows? I don't. I'm just saying that reversing it leaves room for growth and hope, but having it play out unchanged leaves no hope and no show.

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 10, 2002).]quote:

by **EvilAnya** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:51 pm

I believe these spoilers, but i also believe there is other information which we don't know which will change everything. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. How could they follow the lesbian death cliche to a T? I thought they were different than that, and i still pray that they are.

Another thing i wanted to add, and I'm afraid to for fear of getting flamed, but the word lame is offensive to differently abled people, in the same way that it's offensive to say "That's so retarded" or "that's so gay" just something to think about.

This community is great, the support and love on this thread is inspiring and I'm glad we all have a community to turn to in the wake of this horrifying spoiler.

by **willog** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:58 pm

it's just so sad. how could they even think of doing that. I just hate so much when tv shows be all nice and say look at the role models, yes you too can be different and gay and nobody will think bad of you, because you're friends are the kind accepting type. So then you think that they're great and wonderful, and then one day they just sneak up and write them off - and then it's just really sad...

by **Errol** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 3:00 pm

AngelX(Michelle) thanks for being so kind in telling this very sad info. I have been in denial all season and wishing away bad thoughts of Tara dying. I do believe Michelle's spoilers and I think it's exactly how things will go down. I don't believe there will be any big changes to the story. I'm very sad and heartbroken over this news, but I've been expecting this news for a longtime. It's been always at the back of my mind and I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop. And that day has now come. The rest of this season is going to be extremely tragic to watch Tara/Willow suffer but to also watch the other characters suffer. I've come to accept that Tara will die. But if things are changed then I'll be estatic. But I don't see that happening. So I'll just have to deal with my broekn heart and just be grateful for Tara/Willow and always have them on my tape and I'll always have my memories. Willow and Tara really loved each other and nothing will ever change that fact.

------------------
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

by **Willowlicious** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 3:00 pm

As a blatant user of the word "lame" I do so apologize if I've offended anyone. However, I was using it as the following from Webster's Dictionary:

2 : lacking needful or desirable substance : WEAK, INEFFECTUAL

I've always thought of it as strictly a variation of the word "weak." Since I do not think of people with physical difficulties as being weak, it never crossed my mind that it could be offensive. Sorry.

The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe Willow & Tara Forever

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