Complete Spoilers Thread - S6E13 - "Dead Things"

[xita]

Well, I never liked Jonathan, so the procedings do not disappoint me

HEre's what Bone (who used to do wildfeed reports) had to say:

Spike the Slayer Layer- Oh I mean Buffy the Vampire Slayer - Buffy and Spike
are doing it (what else is there now). Dawn is pissed that Buffy doesn't
spend more time with her. Buffy goes to the Bronze with her friends. Spike
is doing Buffy in the Bronze (what else is there now). Buffy asks Tara to
find out if some went wrong with the spell because Spike can hit her.

Warren and the nerds hypnotize his ex and makes her a love slave. Before
anything happens, the spell wears off. She threatens to go to the police
and starts kicking their butts. Warren clobbers her over the head and kills
her. They conjure up some time and space bending demons and Jonathan uses
his disguise spell to make Buffy think she is saving the ex-girlfriend from
these demons. Spike helps her fight the demons (Ah shucks. they aren't
doing it) Buffy hits Jonathan and he rolls down to where the body is and
runs off. Buffy and Spike kill the demons and go to her. Buffy sees the
body and thinks she killed her accidentally. Spike thinks he hid the body
where no one would find it to protect Buffy. But the police find the body
in a river I think.

Buffy goes to turn herself in to the police. Spike tries to stop her but
she kick his butt.( Ah shucks. they aren't doing it). Before she turns
herself in she overhears the police mention the name of the body that was
found. She realizes that it was Warren's ex and leaves the police station.

Later after telling the gang what happened, Buffy is talking to Tara alone.
Tara tells her that the spell was done correctly and that the chip is just
confused as to what Buffy really is because of all of the mystical energies
involved. Buffy breaks down and tells her of her degrading escapades with
Spike and makes her promise not to tell. It ends with Buffy sobbing in
Tara's lap.

Bone

I have now officially given up on the show for this year. I hope the last
season makes me forget about this one.

This show is really depressing . The best part of this particular show was
when Warren and the other nerd believed that they got away with murder and
Jonathan agreed but you could tell he was very upset. Also the scene with
Tara and Buffy was good. Can't type anymore. Too many tears. My hero is
still acting badly.

[kitten scout]

This episode does sound disturbing. I think we've seen though during the last few eps that Willow really is strong. She wants Tara back enough to give up magic. I hope Tara realizes how hard this was. I am so happy that Tara is back!!

[Sundowner]

I'm Wildfeed dumb today. I linked to Leoff's site, but all I'm getting is the wildfeed from Gone. I've refreshed my browser, so it doesn't look like it's a history/temp files problem.

Anyone have any advice?

[Blixxt]

Try going to here specifically. As far as I can tell that should work.

[Sundowner]

quote:

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Originally posted by Blixxt:
Try going to here specifically. As far as I can tell that should work.

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Thank you, thank you, thank you. You're my hero.... quote:

[Scout]

Rather ironic that Buffy begs Tara to tell her she's wrong, when Tara is the one person who is least likely to judge her and condemn her. Yet in the scene before that, Buffy makes Tara promise not to tell the others - the others being the people who would indulge Buffy and tell her that what she did was very, very wrong.

Humans are a complicated lot.

[Junkyard Dog]

I had rather a feeling people would bring up Superstar in this thread. The thing is, while Jonathan was hardly an angel in that episode, I'd say his conduct then still isn't comparable to what happens in Dead Things. His essential decency came through in the end. And I don't think what he does with the twins in that eppie can really be classified as anything but consentual sex, even if he never would have stood a chance with them in the real world.

I guess I agree with most of you in that this is a legitimate direction to take his character in, but I still hate what they're doing to him. I see him as being very similar to Willow in many ways, except he wasn't as fortunate to gain friends as loving and supportive as Buffy & Xander. If he (and Andrew) had been a little less enthusiastic at Warren manipulating Katrina & a little more creeped out before Warren killed her, I wouldn't be quite as uncomfortable with the way this is going.

[raffi]

I found it amusing that herc didn't quote himself accurately on what he thought was wrong with buffy, a quote:

quote:

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Friday, January 11, 2002
Many Colossal BUFFY Spoilers!!!
I am – Hercules!!

AGAIN, GIANT GIANT BUFFY SPOILERS AHEAD!! TURN BACK NOW, ALL THOSE WHO FEAR GIANT GIANT BUFFY SPOILERS!!
* The Big Scooby Death does not occur in 6.15.
* We will learn in 6.13 that Buffy did not come back as a demon, or as an angel, or as a soulless being, or as an immortal. Her “coming back wrong” seems closely connected to her feelings for Spike.

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Hmm closely connected to her feelings for spike? hmmm Her molecular structure was wrong because she likes sleeping with spike???? hmm...

On the other hand, Angel X was spot on! http://www.angelicslayer.com/tbcs/espoilage.html quote:

[Dr.G]

Oh Raffi, I am sure Herc can and will try to twist it in such a way so that he will come up smelling like roses. It is a talent. Gotta give him that.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 04, 2002).]

[Hugin]

Hm I have to say, the difference between Warren using a spell to say "Have sex with me now." isn't all that much diffeent for me than Jonathan's "You find me sexy now."

It's not like Jonathan just _lied_ to the twins and everyone else about being cool and sexy, it's pretty clear that the people under his spell found him fundamentally compelling and sexy, even Xander and Giles.

Not only were the bare facts of Jonathan's life changed (his athletic, acting, musical etc) accomplishments, but he actually has a great deal of musical and althletic skill as well, and people who may not have necessarily liked his music or his hobbies or his physical type normally, found him irresistable.

So, while his means may have been somewhat more indirect than Warren's, I don't think of his (assumed) sex with the twins consensual, as it seems likely thier perceptions and judgement were severely altered.

-len

[tommo]

But it was pointed out, if you remember, at the end of Superstar that Jonathan was told about this spell when he was receiving treatment for being disturbed. I guess we see here that he wasn't the only one who needed that treatment. And er...it clearly didn't work, did it?

Anyway, I'm liking the descriptions of this episode less and less. Naturally, I can't make a judgement until I've seen it, but you know, I think the wildfeed will be more than enough.

There seems to be some kind of theme this season about the subjugation of women. Or perhaps it's just me. And I normally don't get involved in these kinds of discussions, but when a woman calls someone like Warren 'master' then I start to worry. Even if she is under the power of some mind control thingy...

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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock

[BBOvenGuy]

I never figured out how Herc got away with last year's "big spoiler" that Spike would turn Buffy into a vampire in the season finale.

This looks very much like the deep dark episode we've been expecting. We'll have to see how it plays, but judging from the descriptions I'd say there's just enough here for the B/S fans to grab onto and keep their hopes alive. "She must really love him! She doesn't want to, but she does!"

Meanwhile, it's great to hear about Tara's role in the story, and also good to see her with Willow again, even if it's only for a moment.

Sounds like tomorrow will be fun - in a deep dark way, at any rate.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

"You haven’t seen the last of Tara and Willow, that’s for sure." - Marti Noxon, March 2002 edition of Dreamwatch

[willow's girl]

Oh man, so excited for tomorrow. Lot's of Buffy/Spike (I'm a big B/S shipper) AND the return of Tara! Woo-hoo. Doing a little snoopy dance of joy

[magrat]

Wow, Herc really has a bug up his ass. Lets be honest AngelX gives her spoilers' after carefully checking them out,she does not ask for special praise and always seems a most gracious person.Someones ego seems to have taking a battering.

[Reddygirl]

I just read Dori's Spikefeed at BAPS. Tara is soooo sweet and loving to Buffy; Dori's account has more dialogue detail than Loeffs.

[Kieli]

Good Lord, it was good to read some positive spoilers/wildfeeds again. I was about to check myself into an institution the way this season's been running. I too am more than a bit disturbed by the "rape" scenario. There is dark and there is "going where no one REALLY wants to go". I think I may hide my face for some of these parts. Brings up icky flashbacks of bad stuff. (

Toni

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"Sometimes, we just can't make it on our own. We all need someone to love us, to help remind us that there's good in the world, to keep us from going crazy."

Willow from Dacia's The Dreamer Awakes

[Mr_A24]

I have a couple of thoughts I'd like to share, one is that the LG seem to be a dark mirror to the Scoobies. Warren is a dark reflection of Buffy; Jonathon, Willow; Andrew, Xander. Warren reflects B's confusion of love with desire; while Jonathon and Willow's trip into magic land has had it's consequnces for each of them: Jonathon's guilty conscience is somewhat akin to Willow's additction (which I blame on Rack, not the magic) while Xander and Andrew just do what they do to still fit in with there persective peer group. I think I must be the only one here who has ever slept with someone and regretted it and then done it again. Because this is just what B/S "relationship" is all about. Buffy is meeting a physical need with someone she finds repulsive because she hasn't found any other way to meet her needs.This isn't love -- it's a beginning of a sexual addiction. I mean come on compulsive sex which is interfering with her daily living it's classic. Buffy might as well be using crystal meth and strangers as much as she mixes adrenaline with Spike!! But if you disagree feel free to post me back.

[GODisTigger]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr.G:
As for it being the worst thing that could happen to her, it is just how you choose to interpret it. He chooses to use it to make it look like AngelX was wrong, well we all know how good he is at interpreting what he sees.

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To me, this would be the worst thing that could happen to her. Now there is nothing that she can blame her "feelings" for Spike on now. Judging by the way Buffy reacts, I'd say she feels the same way.

D

quote:

[Epicurus]

quote:

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Originally posted by Reddygirl:
I just read Dori's Spikefeed at BAPS. Tara is soooo sweet and loving to Buffy; Dori's account has more dialogue detail than Loeffs.

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I've been to BAPS and I seem to be a little slow today. I can't find it anywhere! argh!

could someone please post a link?
quote:

[Dr.G]

GODisTigger, I agree with you, it would appear that Herc does not however, but that has more to do with wanting to have the right spoiler than making sense I think.

Mr_A24, comparing Buffy's actions to those of Warren, who now has turned into a rapist and murderer and does not appear to show any kind of remorse over what he has done is stretching the analogy a bit too far for me.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 04, 2002).]

[Willowlicious]

quote:

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Originally posted by GODisTigger:
To me, this would be the worst thing that could happen to her. Now there is nothing that she can blame her "feelings" for Spike on now. Judging by the way Buffy reacts, I'd say she feels the same way.

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I totally agree. I think Buffy was hanging her hat on the fact that she came back wrong as a way to excuse her actions with Spike. In her head, it was her friends that brought her back wrong (and against her will) in the first place, so, in a way, THEY were responsible for her relationship with Spike, not her. The notion of her coming back wrong freed her of responsibility just as much as becoming invisible did. So when Buffy finds out that she is fine, she has to deal with the fact that SHE--being of sound mind and body--is the one who wanted, condoned and willingly participated in a sexual relationship with Spike. It's all on her now. That's pretty darn bad news!quote:

[yaya]

hey reddygirl...i went to the BAPS site and i didnt see the summary of dead things that u were talking about....can u post the link to it here?

edited to say...i found it ....thanks anyways

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited February 04, 2002).]

[MoMack]

It seems to me that Buffy was doing something quite similar to what Faith did to Buffy (while in Faith's body) at the end of Who Are You. Buffy yelling at Spike and telling him that he doesn't have a soul, that he's dead inside, that he can't feel anything real - all things that Buffy fears about herself and that Spike seems to reflect.

[fontaine]

Where did you find that summary of Dead Things on the BAPS site?

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"I'm not exactly shaking in my stylish yet affordable boots, but there's definately something unnatural going on here" - Buffy "Once More With Feeling"

[Junkyard Dog]

What a strange season. In a weird way, I can see how terrible it is for Buffy to find out there's nothing really wrong with her after all (if that was her self-rationalization for continuing her involvement with Spike), but on the other hand, they've set up this seemingly Big Plot Point only to reveal that it's...Surprise! Nothing! I mean, what th'...? It's not unlike the flip-flop they pulled with Willow's story arc, and I have to wonder if this is really what they'd planned from the beginning. It just seems hastily slapped together somehow.

As for some of the comments about Jonathan's behavior in Superstar: I'm not saying I condone what he did, but I don't think it's fair to accuse him of controlling anyone against their will in that epsiode because we don't know that he did that. We don't know the workings of the spell he used to create his own little wishverse, or what exactly he asked for. I'm thinking of the Tom Hanks movie "Big", in which the main character, a child, wishes to be "big", only to find himself transformed into Tom Hanks. Jonathan's spell could have been simply to be liked & respected, and however naive & simple-mindedly childish his wish may have been worded, that doesn't make his motivation actively malevolent. I think the deciding factor is that he didn't ask to be something shallow like a famous actor, say, but he actually wanted to be part of something worthwhile: Helping Buffy & the others fight evil. (And when his choice was between saving Buffy's life or keeping his fantasy world going, he did the right thing without hesitating.)

So unless he specifically asked to have women throwing themselves at him, I don't think he should be accused of anything along those lines. (I certainly don't see him actually requesting Giles or Xander lusting after him!) It *WAS* an alternate universe, after all, and taking advantage of the governing rules there, while hardly the most ethical thing to do, still strikes me as more misguided than evil.

Heh, heh. Here endeth the rant. I'm sorry to prattle on about the lad, but just as some of you lesbians would like to get pesonally acquainted with Willow & Tara, this is one gay guy who'd like nothing better than to scoop up Danny Strong & run off somewhere private for snuggling. Yes, I think Jonathan's a cutie, but I really did symapthise with his character in earlier seasons; They made him humorous enough so showing him constantly alone & without any friends didn't seem heavy-handed. The poor kid's far more of a butt-monkey than Xander ever was, and I don't like seeing him put in this position. For that matter, as I've said several times, I don't much like what they've done to Amy, either. *Sigh.* Oh, well...

[Swa]

quote:

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Originally posted by Willowlicious:
So when Buffy finds out that she is fine, she has to deal with the fact that SHE--being of sound mind and body--is the one who wanted, condoned and willingly participated in a sexual relationship with Spike. It's all on her now. That's pretty darn bad news!

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I agree with you on almost all of what you said, except the above. I don't think she's been of sound mind since she came back. I agree that she's using her "being wrong" as an excuse for her recent actions, but she smooching him before she knew about "being wrong," that's where I think the not being of sound mind part comes in. She's been an emotional and mental wreck since her mother died. She never really got to recover from that before she was off to deal with the end of last season, then she died, then she comes back...she has so much she hasn't dealt with and she's still "wrong" in the head.

On to Tara goodness:
My God, I'm so glad she's the responsible person that she is. She's the only adult on the show right now, and I love the fact that she's being supportive of Buffy in her time of need.

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---Swa

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited February 04, 2002).]quote:

[yaya]

fontaine: go to BAPS...click on spoilerzone....go to the bottom and click on episodes...then click on Dories...its there

[Willowlicious]

Yes, Swa, I had second thoughts about my "sound mind" comment after I posted it. I used a poor phrase. Buffy is not emotionally well. Not at all. Her emotional needs have overpowered her rational mind. But she still has the ability to tell right from wrong. That's what I meant by "sound mind."

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited February 04, 2002).]

[Kilopto]

what is BAPS?

[yaya]

www.bloodyawfulpoet.com