Subtext,Research, Pandering, Xena and Buffy

[xita]

So, I find this at Whoosh
Rudnick is the interviewer, Tapert is the creative force behind xena.

RUDNICK:
[105] Having said that, I am obligated to ask you another question about subtext. We know it started out accidentally. People applied that interpretation and it was picked up on, played to, and then dropped. Now it's back with a vengeance. Or is that just audience interpretation again? Is there no more or less attention paid to it than there ever has been?

TAPERT:
[106] As far as the writing is concerned, there's more attention being paid to it than ever before. I think Lucy and Renee did more with it in the past. If you ask R.J. and Chris Manheim, they never really wrote it. It was more in the playing. There was a sly joke here and there. It was never front and center in their mind, I don't think. This season the staff wanted to heal the wounds in their relationship and show the love between the two characters and fandom can interpret that any way they want. This season when you write about the characters it's hard not to have subtext even more in the forefront than we had before. It's a difficult road to walk.

[107] Research has told us so specifically that our audience doesn't want this and people turned it off because of subtext. The really hard-core fans like it, and there may be 100,000 of them, but that's only a tenth of a rating point. The lesbian fans really like it and I appreciate that, I really do, but they aren't the majority of the audience. I sat behind glass windows during research as people in Phoenix and people in New Jersey said, "We want them to have more guys. We like guys. We want Xena and Gabrielle to have boyfriends." I think it would be wrong, having an opportunity like we have with Xena and Gabrielle, to not find a way to make it publicly acceptable and condone that it's OK to have single sex relationships, it's OK to have interracial relationships. We don't want to be accused, as we have been, of pandering to the "pink vote" but you also don't want to lose your show. Joss Whedon did the right thing. He's got his relationships with his C and D characters. I'll be interested to see if Tara and Willow end up on a happy or a sad note ultimately.

Studio Interference

RUDNICK:
[108] Have you had a lot of pressure or interference over the years from the studio trying to dictate what your show should be?

TAPERT:
[109] No. Right now, they're more nitpicky about certain things. There have been a bunch of regimes that have come and gone. They've stated their opinions. "We want Ares and Xena together. We want to see more of that." That's come through a couple of times. I got a call from a guy last week, who said, "I wish you'd do some more comedies. The show's a little dark lately."

I really doubt Joss sits around looking at research and if he does I hope he doesn't pay attention to it. It's interesting that Tapert worries so much about research, it shows on his show, that instead of telling a story, he is busy trying to please everyone.

Also, in the rest of the interview, he mentions that he hasn't decided on all the episodes he will include for the rest of the season. Even more bizzare, he doesn't know how he'll end the series yet, he better figure it out, he's running out of time.

Also by C and D does he mean the non leads? If anything, I saw Willow is a B character.. anyway, what do you all think?

[This message has been edited by xita (edited January 01, 2001).]

[Warduke]

I read that at Whoosh earlier today, see Tapert toned down subtext a lot last season and what happened?…it was the worst season ever, it was pathetic and now that they have turned up the subtext, the fans are loving it, to bad it’s too little too late for me, I still watch it but it’s not the same, the passion I had for the show is gone but I don’t really care because I have W/T now and that’s all I need…on TV at least

I also wondered what he meant by C and D characters…I’m guessing he means the supporting characters but I agree with you, at the very least, Willow is a B character, definitely not a C or D.

[Dr.G]

Hmmm...Excuse me Xita (hehehe sorry, I almost typed Xena here), I really don't mean to be the first one to answer your posts today all the time . I hope someone beats me to it in the time it takes me to type this long winded response.

First I'm still trying to get over the offense I take at Tapert calling Willow and Tara C and D characters. It sounds derogatory, but yeah, I know he doesn't mean it like that. Blah. Blah.

Anyway, I'm not sure what to make of this. On the one hand he claims to be for a Xena/Gabrielle relationship to show the world it's ok to have an single sex relationship. (BTW did he really say 'single' sex instead of same sex? Doesn't single sex mean sex by yourself? )
Yet on the other hand he admits to catering to the majority of the audience, who apparently prefer X and G parading around with annoying guys. (Guess what *I* think about THAT). This is how he wants to make a TV show?
He can't have it both ways. I don't want him paying me lip service telling us how he's all for a X/G relationship. Then turn around and make a mockery of his words, using ratings as an excuse. I cannot respect him if this is true. I don't believe Joss Whedon would *ever* sell out like this.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited January 01, 2001).]

[Zelda]

There are so many irritating things in this interview that I'm not sure how to respond. I think I need to cool off first. I'll let less impassioned minds address the issues first.

[BBOvenGuy]

In my opinion, the fastest way to kill the integrity of what you're doing is by listening to focus groups and marketing research studies. I know it's all the rage these days, but it gets you nothing but mediocrity. And that's not just on TV, either - look at this year's Presidential campaign, which was largely scripted by marketing people, and you'll see where things can end up.

Joss seems more like the type of person who is going to listen to his artistic vision regardless of what the marketing people tell him. Tapert probably doesn't know what his last episode is yet because the research folks haven't told him what the focus groups want yet. On the other hand, Joss has probably had a general idea of what the Season 5 finale is going to be for the past two years at least.

As for Willow and Tara being "C and D characters," I take that as meaning Tapert considers Buffy to be the "A character," and Riley or perhaps Giles to be the "B character." Everyone else is a "C" or a "D." That might not be true, but that's how he appears to see it.

[april]

ugh, this interview just made my stomach turn. it seems to me that much of this show's plot and character inconsistency can be attributed to paying too much attention to the "research" that tapert mentions.

then again, no wonder that people aren't liking the same-sex plotlines if tapert thinks that x & g should be used to "show people that same-sex relationships are OK". sounds rather soapboxlike to me.

the way that joss has done a good job is not by using "C and D characters" to be the Scary Lesbian Couple, but rather by letting a relationship naturally develop between two people, negative feedback and focus groups be damned. i greatly admire joss for standing up to the WB's restrictions on willow and tara; i doubt that tapert would ever have done that.

and hey, for many of us, willow and tara *are* the A and B characters!!! buffy? buffy who?

[Dr.G]

Argh...Instead of editing my post for the tenth time I'm posting a new reply. Warduke thanks for beating me to that first reply and congrats on becoming a cool monster fighter. I know the feeling.

The reason I had to edit my previous post ten times (not kidding) was because I didn't see all the spelling errors I made, because the steam coming out of my nostrils was fogging up my computer screen. So Zelda, I'm hardly less impassioned.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited January 01, 2001).]

[Warduke]

Hey Dr.G, my fellow CMF
You know I’m a lousy speller too but you would never know that from my post…hehe…because I use MS Word to write my replies, it catches almost all my mistakes and when I’m done, I just copy/paste it and there you go, error free posts

And as for Rob Tapert, he’s a moron, X:WP is his “baby” and to let focus groups and other people’s opinions change is vision of the show is absurd, what I love about Joss is that he seems to be a true artist, he doesn’t care if people love or hate something he does in the show, if he wants to do it, he does it and I think if anyone else was in charge of Buffy, we wouldn’t be here because there wouldn’t be any W/T.

[Hugin]

Rob Tapert is, as my grandmother used to say, tiresome. I usually like to go into long winded responses to stuff like this, but my Xena fandom has been, in a way, worn down over the years to the point that I can't give it the old Hugin rhetorical business. So I'll be briefer and ruder than I normally am. Forgive me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by xita:

If you ask R.J. and Chris Manheim, they never really wrote it. It was more in the playing. There was a sly joke here and there. It was never front and center in their mind, I don't think.

---

Oh...bullshit Rob. Yes, Lucy and Renee have played little games with the audience with thier line readings and body language and such, giving things a subtexty oomph here and there. But Lucy and Renee don't make the plots. They don't write the dialogue. How many times have they been aligned as two points of a love triangle, where the random boyfriend of the week was quite clearly put in romantic opposition to Xena or Gabby for the affections of the other? How many very carefully worded speeches have Xena or Gabby made to each other (often one to the other while sleeping/comatose/dead) detailing the depth of thier feeling for one another, the strength of thier commitment, etc etc etc. Any writer, or reader, could recognize these speeches as classic dramatic constructions used over and over again for great loves. I'm not saying Xena is classic literature, but the shape of the template for these speeches is inarguable. It's an insult to the viewers of the show, and to the frequently affecting work of the writers, to look back and blithely say "oh, that was just some side stuff, for inclined fans to pick up on maybe." Not to mention the endless manipulations to get Xena and Gabby to kinda sorta nudge nudge wink wink kiss.

quote:

---

Research has told us so specifically that our audience doesn't want this and people turned it off because of subtext. The really hard-core fans like it, and there may be 100,000 of them, but that's only a tenth of a rating point. The lesbian fans really like it and I appreciate that, I really do, but they aren't the majority of the audience. I sat behind glass windows during research as people in Phoenix and people in New Jersey said, "We want them to have more guys. We like guys. We want Xena and Gabrielle to have boyfriends."

---

You soulless hack. Yeah, I recognize you need to make a living. But the casual way you cave in to the lowest common denominator, and dismiss the core fans of what easily could have been a completely fringe, cult show....And if Xena and Gabby having boyfriends was such a good idea, why did you introduce them and then toss them like cans of cheap beer season after season? Why did Xena and Gabby repeatedly blow off suitors to stay together? If you're going to decide to disrespect one segment of your audience in favor of another (and the appreciating the lesbians line is worthy of an ass kicking Rob, which I wish Liz Friedman had given to you years ago), at least follow through for the poor focus group schmucks in Phoenix and Jersey.

quote:

---

It would be wrong, having an opportunity like we have with Xena and Gabrielle, to not find a way to make it publicly acceptable and condone that it's OK to have single sex relationships, it's OK to have interracial relationships.

---

So you'll find the most weaselly, inconsistent way you can, and do a heroic job failing to back it up in your behind the scene's comments.

quote:

---

We don't want to be accused, as we have been, of pandering to the "pink vote" but you also don't want to lose your show.

---

Hack. Ass. And trust me Rob, you pander. I hope you can paint or sing or something, everyone should be able to express a true artistic impulse. It ain't the show, not the way you treat it.

quote:

---

Joss Whedon did the right thing. He's got his relationships with his C and D characters. I'll be interested to see if Tara and Willow end up on a happy or a sad note ultimately.

---

You don't deserve to get to see how they turn out Rob. "Oh, I'm quite impressed and interested in the actual principled stands other people are trying to take...oop, I think I hear some close minded people calling me, I've got to put on my kowtowing kneepads, bye."

I want to chuck a videotape of the episode A Day in The Life at the man's head at high velocity.

For the record, Tapert is being a doofus in the letter category thing as well. Xena is not an ensemble show, Buffy is, which flattens and broadens the character hierarchy. If you had to insist on a ranking, Willow is a B, Tara a C.

Oh, this turned out to be rude, but still long winded. Yay.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited January 01, 2001).]quote:quote:quote:quote:quote:

[Roxton]

What an idiotic way to write a series, base the plot development on focus groups. How do you achieve any type of continuity that way. I hope Tapert doesn't decide to write a novel, it would never get finished.

How can anyone who watches the show think of Willow and Tara as "C" and "D" characters. In fact the Scoobies shouldn't even be regarded as secondary characters. They are just as vital to the show's success as Buffy. Take them away or downplay their roles and what are you left with, a lot of very angry fans who will ultimately stop watching.

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited January 01, 2001).]

[Dr.G]

Len, I don't think you were rude in the least. I was trying so hard to stay polite in my first post, that all I succeeded in doing, was give myself heartburn and hurt my tongue from biting it too hard.

Anyway I just wanted to say I absolutely agree with Roxton here, and with April and Warduke too for that matter, regarding Willow and Tara. You shouldn't downplay or underestimate their role on BtVS.
That's exactly what Tapert does with that C and D remark. Suggesting Joss Whedon was very clever sneaking in a lesbian relationship through the backdoor by using the 'minor' characters. So it won't affect the ratings too much. I know I'm paraphrasing here, but that is what it's boils down to. Bah. If the show had been called Willow the Vampire Slayer Witch, Joss would still have made her gay. The man has a backbone, unlike some people...

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited January 01, 2001).]

[wolliw]

Interesting and rather telling interview -- thanks for posting it here, xita! I don't go to whoosh anymore, now that my Xena ardor has long cooled.

Re focus groups: quite apart from W/T or any "controversial lesbian stuff" (my own scare quotes), would we have gotten the absolutely gutwrenching Becoming I and II as Buffy's S2 finale if plots were determined by focus groups?? I mean, killing off Angel *after* he regained his soul? Or earlier in S2, would Jenny Calendar have been killed off? Or Doyle in S1 of Angel? I think not. They were pretty sharp dramatic turns; but for me, they ultimately worked splendidly, and I applaud from the bottom of my Joss-loving heart that Joss had the courage to follow *his* vision, not the generally mediocre one of the masses.

[LordBowler]

What I want to know is what focus group told him that people actually liked all those "funny" episodes they've been inflicting on the world that last few years.

As for the C and D characters coments keep in mind, the crummy writing the last few years have reduced Xena and Gabby to B characters on their own show so Tapert probably doesn't understand that a show is supposed to have A characters (and stories and plots).

[This message has been edited by LordBowler (edited January 01, 2001).]

[BBOvenGuy]

If Joss had been following focus groups instead of his own vision, my guess is:

-- Angel would never have been allowed to turn evil.
-- Angel would never have been allowed back on the show after having been evil.
-- Angel wouldn't have been allowed to leave all the Wolfram & Hart lawyers to die at the hands of Darla and Drusilla.
-- Not only would Willow/Tara not have happened, but Willow/Oz wouldn't have happened either - bestiality not going over well with focus groups.

On the other hand, if you thought the Buffy/Riley sexcapades have been over-the-top, you would probably be hurling at the amount of blatant exploitative titillation shots that would be thrown in.

I'm reminded of a situation involving J. Michael Straczynski, a writer/producer I'm often reminded of when talking about Joss. JMS tried to do a sequel to Babylon 5 called Crusade, but his network - TNT - was constantly interfering with changes they wanted based on feedback from focus groups. JMS actually walked off the project and tanked his own show rather than submit to TNT's wishes. I imagine Joss would do the same thing if the WB started leaning on him.

[miller]

hmm...
reading this really made me feel like crying. i'm still very much a loyal xenite and was really REALLY disappointed that this was gonna be their last season. but after reading that i'm kinda glad that this is gonna be the last season. the way he answered made it sound as if he was tired of the show not really knowing where to go. as if he just couldn't be bothered. if he was still very much into it he'd would have had the series ender planned out yrs ago!! research groups,ratings,boyfriends..who ever heard of such nonsense....BAH HUMBUG!!! as much as i still love xena and gabby, rob i have pretty much lost the respect that i once had for you. i hope you take some pointers from joss, he REALLY knows what he's doing.. ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY JOSS GOD!!
miller.

[willtara2525]

Having been a Xena fan up until the pile o' crap generally known as fifth season, I feel I must respond to this post (that and I have nothing better to do on this boring Monday night)...

Rob Tapert's use of (and what seems like complete dependence on) research and focus is definitely the route one SHOULD follow if you want to suck ALL the artistic intergrity out of your show and if that was his intention, then he succeeded with flying colors.

In their hayday (second, third and fourth season) Xena and Gabrielle were solid, emotionally complex and pretty interesting characters, but now, they seem like hollow, empty cartoons who change motivation and personality from episode to episode with no explanation. I am not only offended (as a former fan) by Tapert's comments about us 100,000 hardcore fan (and to be reduced to mere numbers on some rating piechart), but I think I'm even more offended that he would even utter Willow and Tara in the same sentence, breath or thought as Xena and Gabrielle.

One of the reasons I became a more hardcore Buffy fan was because I know Joss will always stay true to his characters. They develop. They grow. I was tired of being jerked around Xena's inconsistent characterizations (Xena loves Gabrielle, Gabrielle love Xena, yet Xena is making out with beefcake god Ares...what?!?)

I think Hugin said it best..
Mr. Tapert.. you are a soulless hack...

Bottom line.. I refer to this famous quote..
"I know Joss Wheldon. Joss Wheldon was a friend of mine and you, sir are no Joss Wheldon.."

--wt2525 ... i don't really know Joss.. I was just trying to be creative and failing miserably...

[Trickster]

I was going to stay out of this since I no longer watch Xena. Two reasons really, the last season I watched (five or four, can't remember which) wasn't really all that good to me and then the next season my local station didn't show it at all.

But there was something posted that caught my eye, other that the whole double speak. "Grandmum won't eat the double speak." ~ Dru. "No she won't eat that" ~ Originally said by Darla, stolen by Trickster.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugin:
Yes, Lucy and Renee have played little games with the audience with thier line readings and body language and such, giving things a subtexty oomph here and there. But Lucy and Renee don't make the plots. They don't write the dialogue. How many times have they been aligned as two points of a love triangle, where the random boyfriend of the week was quite clearly put in romantic opposition to Xena or Gabby for the affections of the other? How many very carefully worded speeches have Xena or Gabby made to each other (often one to the other while sleeping/comatose/dead) detailing the depth of thier feeling for one another, the strength of thier commitment, etc etc etc.

---

There was even one set in the future where Joxier and Xena were married (only they weren't Joxier and Xena) anyway by the end of the episode he told Xena and Gabby that they were meant to be together! That wasn't the actors, that was the writing. If it was just the actors then that line wouldn't have been in there.

My two cents. And Willow should be at least a B character, but I consider Giles, Willow, Xander, and Buffy all A characters and the others B or C characters.

------------------
I love Buffy The Vampire Slayer!

[This message has been edited by Trickster (edited January 01, 2001).]quote:

[semiramis]

I have been sneakily reading this board while supposed to be hard at work (it's Tuesday here.....) I, too, was a devoted Xenite, completely obsessed....I was so very sure that Rob was a champion, that he would be the first person brave enough to present a real love affair between women on the small screen. But as time went on I began to lose my faith......I began to feel that he would never commit, that the subtext was a cynical ploy to keep me watching, then there was the infamous S5... Now in Oz the show was cancelled part way through S4, so obtaining S5 required the help of kind Americans ......and I cant even bear to watch most of the episodes...I'm enjoying S6, but I simply dont have the passion for the show that I once did......it's like dating again someone who once dumped you......you can never quite trust them , no matter how much they promise that they have reformed......I simply don't trust Rob to treat the X & G relationship with the respect that I think it deserves. He acts in interviews as though he is trying hard to please everyone, but the only people he really wants to please are the marketers and their focus groups. And his reference to W & T as C & D characters is cynical and spiteful.......

Personally I wish they'd let Lucy control the ending of the season.....she seems to have a much better feeling for the subtext and her audience

[fell]

"Soulless hack" definitely sums up my opinion of Tapert. He certainly makes it clear exactly what's wrong with his show. Relying on focus groupsand market studies is a good way to sell garbage bags and toilet paper, not to make art. It's astonishing that he could be aware of Joss Whedon's work and yet be so totally clueless.

There's a huge difference between what Joss is trying to do in creating a worthwhile and entertaining series, and what Tapert is doing- merely trying to sell the 'least objectionable' product. Whedon et al. set out to tell a meaningful story driven by interesting characters and let it find an audience. It's rare to find that kind of artistic integrity in the industry these days. It certainly doesn't exist on the Xena set.

Someone should post a link to this discussion at the official Xena site- maybe someone connected with the show will read it and get a clue.

[Kirk B]

It's interesting.

Being a recovering Xenite myself (there does seem to be a large number of us on this board I notice), I am curious to see that so many people tout season 5 as more or less being the death knell for XWP.

I thought most people, Xenites at least, lay the blame more on seaon 3.

Xena and Gabrielle from S1 and S2 were witty and intelligent, yet still fallible, human characters. They laughed and cried, they could be hurt, and they obviously loved one another a great deal.

Then season 3 came along (the pain!), and in a few short episodes everything changed. And not for the better, either.

Gabrielle lost her blood innocence, was forced to conceive a child, and had Xena try to kill her.

To me, I don't think the show ever recovered from all the crap done to it, and to its two characters, in season 3.

That, and I swear RT just lost interest in it somewhere along the way. He's just going on autopilot now, waiting for someone to tell him which way to turn.

Whedon, on the other hand, is a genius who's aware of everyone and everything around him, and uses that to his advantage. He knows the characters intimately, and has plans for the future, and when something traumatic happens to them (ie Angel turning bad, Miss C being murdered, or Buffy running away) it radiates throughout the following episodes, instead of never being mentioned again.

In short, I think Whedon is the best Writer/ Producer on TV. JMS, W/P of another of my all time favorite shows (B5), comes in a close second.

------------------
Kirk B

"Even when I'm at my worst, you always make me feel special. How do you do that?"

"Magic."

[xita]

Kirk, yes I abandoned ship back in season 3 and I really didn't watch till this season again. I am not doing it for me, though I might have tuned in for that non-kiss anyway.

I can't believe that Tapert admits to running his show like this. It's an embarassment and his offensive mention of w/t shall not be forgotten.

I want to echo Kirk's praise of Joss and JMS.

[mucifer]

that tapert guy really is an idiot. why would he go in front of the public and admit he doesnt care about his own show? also, he says nothing interesting or clever. give joss 2 seconds to ad lib an answer then dozens of people have a new silly tagline. not to mention the intelligent ways he attacked the homophobes on the posting board. i saw him do a question and answer thingy here in chicago and he was wearing a t shirt that said "hack" on it. very cute!very joss. he was answering questions in willow or xander style that's just how he talks when he's in the mood for it. the other interesting thing he said is he likes to piss people off! he stood up for tara and riley even tho they arent the most popular. tho im glad he had the sense to dump riley. when the censors get stupid he just gets more thoughtful.

[drlloyd11]

I had a long diatribe about this, but instead here are the facts.. Xena is ending, Hercules is over, Jack of all trades/cleopatra 2525 are gone.
What else is there to say. In 1998 Xena was a cultural phenom . Now its just a afterthought..
wonder when they started getting careful?

[Hugin]

I heard somewhere that Cleopatra was being split off and expanded into it's own hourlong show following the death of Jack of all Trades. I'd like to like it more (women leads, black woman lead, sci-fi setting)

But Cleo herself is so annoying. She's only fractionally better than Joxer. Why Sarge and Hel put up with her..

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited January 02, 2001).]

[eekiboo]

goodbye xena and gabby...
hello willow and tara...

goodbye xwp...
hello btvs...

goodbye rob...
hello joss...

goodbye subtext...
hello maintext...

peace!

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Willow to Buffy: "we have to face it, you can't handle Tara being my girlfriend..." The Yoko Factor

[EvilAnya]

To me it seems like Tapert is trying to passive/aggresively defend X/G and at the same time blame them for the faltering of the show. It's obvious to any Buffy watcher that Willow is not a "c character", to me, and i think most Buffy fans, the original Scooby Gang is the A set of characters, B is reserved for Big Bads, Signifigant others and just about anyone who isn't a one shot. It's like Tapert is saying that the reason Joss succeeded with having a same sex relationship was because he didn't use the most "important" characters. That's pure bull. Willow is a main character and because Joss has stones and a great sense of where he wants the plots and characters to go he consistantly manages to please his fans (even when they're not always thrilled, they are always entertained).

Sorry Rob, i loved Xena but this interview made me lose so much respect for you.

[Tara]

Add me to the list of recovering Xenites who lost respect for Rob in this article. For me, things went downhill in Season Three with the whole 'hate rift' (the horse drag was the worst..). After that Xena was never really the same, but I still watched it religiously. When Channel 10 here took it off, I was upset, but when I saw the developments of Season Five (which started so great with Fallen Angel) I realised I didn't love the show as much anymore. Buffy filled that big void for me (I'd always loved Buffy, just liked Xena a bit more. Silly me). Xena just didn't know what it wanted to do, it tried to please everyone but pleased noone, and it had a run of horrible episodes (dare I mention Married with Fishsticks, possibly the worst episode ever made). Season Six does seem to be a bit better, but I could honestly care less now. Buffy has the consistency Xena doesn't, and isn't afraid to do something that isn't mainstream. In the long run, Buffy will be remembered as the better show, not Xena. Long live God Joss, and Willow and Tara

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Caleb Ross Online