The Lesbian Cliche FAQ

[drlloyd11]

Steve,

Thanks for coming here, and thanks for saying what you did. It's hard for me to say how much this means to me. But it means alot.

Please feel free to come back anytime,

and thanks again.

drlloyd

-extending the *virtual* hand of friendship

[BBOvenGuy]

Mr. DeKnight,



Thanks very much - for apologizing, for coming here to talk directly to us, and for understanding that we're all still somewhat wounded and wary. It's been a rough past many months.



Still, I think you'll find that most of us here don't like to nurse grudges. Once the healing process is allowed to begin - and you've given it a good start - I think we'd rather hope for better times to come. That's how I see it, anyway.

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

[Dumbsaint]

Apology accepted, Steve. It does mean quite a lot to hear that. Thanks.

"And never let it be said that I left a Tara craving unsatisfied." Willow, Wilderness Pt. 1

[tommo]

And it's appreciated. As for your future actions, well you're only one man among others, but you appear sincere. Thanks for this.

----------
"You exquisite little tart!" ~ Diana Lethaby

[urnofosiris]

To add to my first hasty response which was more meant to prevent "is he or isn't he" questions:

It does mean a lot that you posted here, saying sorry is not one of my better qualities, but fortunately I am never wrong.

For what it is worth coming from a total stranger living in some teeny tiny country halfway across the world: I do believe you to be sincere now and that makes part of the season 6 aftermath better for me.



We lost something unique, something that cannot be replaced for me, my feelings of anger won't fade easily. I just hope that one day I will be able to watch something that will be half as good as I once considered Buffy the Vampire Slayer to be and to be able to take joy in watching Willow and Tara again, but right now I still cannot.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

Edited by: DrG at: 10/21/02 4:23:28 pm

[AutumnT]

Wow. I have to admit to a bit of a start to seeing "Our Newest Member - Steve DeKnight" on the main board.



Thank you for your apology. And thank you for doing it here.

Autumn

-----------

BUFFY: I could wrestle naked in grease for a living and still be cleaner than after a shift at the Doublemeat.

WILLOW: Plus, I'd visit you at work every single day.

[emma peel]

Thanks for coming by here to apologize. I appreciate your comments.

Janice

[roamin]

Steve,



Thank you for coming by and following up on your apology at the Bronze, and for your apology. It means a lot.



I know it takes a certain amount of courage to step into the "lion's den" so thanks for taking the time to do it.





So apology accepted - and I am more than happy to bury the hatchet (and not in anyones back).



Now - can you do something about bringing back snarky Cordy?!!!

[urnofosiris]

Oh hee Autumn, that is amusing, that will draw some attention alright. Bless our nice and automatic friendly EZ board welcoming system. I fondly remember that lovely feature at Novogate which said "thank you for posting" whenever anyone made a post no matter how horrible.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

[famer]

Steve,



I occassionally lurk on the BB and was present for your first apology.



Thanks very much for posting your apology at the BB and doing the follow-up by posting on the Kitten.



The extra effort is telling in its sincerity. And the grace of which you admit your mistakes reflects well upon your character. Good luck on your future projects. I look forward to the possibility that they may include realistic and ethical depictions of honest and healthy lesbian relationships.

Edited by: famer at: 10/21/02 10:49:51 pm

[WebWarlock]

Steve,



I a am running to work now and do not have the time to craft a proper reply. But allow me to say this.



It takes a rare courage and strength of character to come here to post an apology. Fot that, I am greatful.



If you are true to your words then I welcome the chance for your to prove yourself. If nothing else this community has shown an unyielding loyality to those we believe in.



I cannot forgive what happend to Tara, Willow and this fine group of people here that I call friends. But I can forgive you in the part you played for your display here.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side, home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

"What is it with you and witches anyway?" - My Mom.

[Willowlicious]

Mr. DeKnight,



I truly thank you for coming here and posting your apology. Despite the numerous reports to the contrary, we're actually a pretty forgiving bunch. We also appreciate humor. Even twisted humor. Unfortunately, the subject we had a disagreement over--the representation and fate of a rare, beloved lesbian character--held so much hope and bore so many real life consequences (including life/death) for us, that your "humorous" comments cut us to the bone.



Your apology is both kind and courageous. It is also deeply appreciated. I, too, wish none of this had happened. It's been awful. But your comments are helpful.



Thank you.



Amy

Edited by: Willowlicious at: 10/21/02 4:08:10 pm

[Zahir al Daoud]

Mr. DeKnight,



None of us fails to make mistakes. What most of us fail at is learning from them. Even rarer is when some one publicly owns up to error.



Well done, sir.

"O Let my name be in the Book of Love!
If it be there I care not of that other Book above.
Strike it out! Or write it in anew, but
Let my name be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kayam

[sam7777]

Mr. DeKnight,



Thanks for posting the apology here. Many of us don't go to the other boards because of what is said. I feel we lost alot when Willow/Tara was ended in such a brutal manner. I appreciate that you want to make things better and I hope you get the opportunity.



Sam7777

I see dead lesbian cliches.

[Kendahl897]

Steve,

Thank you for taking the time to come here and apologize. It does mean alot..We realize that it was not your decision to kill Tara off and at the time of the Succubus interview, you may not have realized the impact it was going to have on the lesbian community..It may sound silly, especially when other boards are always saying ''it's just a TV show'', but for alot of us it was more..I'm somewhat older now, but I remember when I was a teenager with alot of feelings that I didn't fully understand. I would look desperately for some mirror image of myself on TV to try and help me deal, but unfortunately, there were none..That's why Willow and Tara were so important..they represented something that is so rare on TV, a happy, healthy lesbian couple..Joss wanted DMW so much that he didn't care what it took to get there..And that is a real shame. Not just for me but for him, too...I'm a Neilsen household and I show my anger the only way I know will have a real impact..I don't watch..when TARA is back, I'll be back. I'm only sorry that the power to rectify things is not in your hands, cause I just don't think Joss has a real clue to the damage he has done, to us and to BTVS.

Again, thank you for the apology. I just wish the other people at ME were interested in a real dialogue..

[helpful information perha]

Steve,



You work in a biz with tremendous power to affect the way the world sees itself/public conscience.



What you put on screen and what you say about it after is seen/read world wide, - and -

for better or worse, it affects millions of lives.



I for one am glad you have apologized for your behavior, and that you have made the effort to make your apology here.



I realize you can only apologize for yourself and your actions

-and -

I think you realize, your apology doesn't change what ME put on the screen and the great damage that Whedon's story did.



(Take 10 mins to scroll through the BB and see how the "faithful" now feel they have been given license by ME, to belittle, demean and chase away, with very personal attacks - any and all who even mention Tara, W/T or appear sympathetic to gay issues - then multiply that by the millions of others who don't post there but saw, and took their cue from the implicit "message" sent via another lesbian couple ending up dead/evil in the end. ME made it VERY clear that no lesbian couple, even normal, intelligent, caring and loving lesbian couples, can end up anything but dead/evil)



You're working on a show that targets youth. Youthful audiences don't need running gags/pants less jokes; stories like spiral that define taking a life as a 'rite of passage to adulthood;' or clichéd endings for minorities (Seeing Red). Youth need adults with vision, who can mentor and lead, via compelling stories - to affect a better and more tolerant world - where the cycle of hate and vengeance is broken, by honorable characters with intelligence and respect for life/others. I believe "Smallville" reflects youths thirst for such stories



I thank you for your apology.



I only wish it hadn't been necessary in the first place.

Edited by: helpful information perhaps at: 10/22/02 7:59:44 am

[VampNo12]

Mr. DeKnight, I just want to add my thanks for taking the time to come to this board to apologize, it's greatly appreciated. Your apology may be a little late, but it doesn't negate the fact that I believe you are sincere with your words. Yes, there has been a great deal of hurt, but I am glad this can help us in healing some of that hurt. Without bringing back Tara alive, you can't "right the wrong" in the fullest sense, but by taking the lessons you learned from all this, hopefully in the future you will have the opportunity to show we all learn from our mistakes. Thanks again for stopping by .

[Wiccagrrl313]

Mr DeKnight, thank you. Your apology is very much appreciated. The fact that you came here to give it means a lot.

[La]

Mr. DeKnight,



Thank you for taking the time to apologize to us. As others have said before me, it helps, though it is late, it is definitely better than not saying anything ever.

~La

When we think of the Lord as our shepherd, we often overlook that eventually the shepherd eats the sheep.
~Prof. Levenson, my Jewish Studies professor.

[the kat whisperer]

SDK,



I'd also like to add my thanks for your apology. However belated, I do believe in its sincerity, and that you came here to apologize "face to face" to the people who were hurt the most is also much appreciated.



kw

Xena: "Always looking out for me, huh?"
Gabrielle: "Always."

[friskylez]

Mr DeKnight, Im glad you took the time to come by the kitten board and apologize...The hurt and pain that was caused by your original comments and by what transpired in the final eps of last season, all for want of a shot of a blood spattered shirt, have been along time healing..Your apology is a step in the right direction..



This board is home to a rather large group of fans who appreciate and love what W/T represented and what Amber and Aly brought to the screen, their wonderful chemistry together..That chemistry is what enamored this wonderful couple to a very diverse group of people..There can be no replacement for Tara since the chemistry was between Aly/Willow and Amber/Tara, that "chemistry" cannot be duplicated...



Maybe one day Joss will take note of the courage it took to visit us and apologize, swallow his pride and do the same...What comes around goes around..

"Live everday as if it were your last cause one of these days, it will be"

Edited by: friskylez  at: 10/22/02 12:58:38 am

[Katharyn]

Thankyou SDK, we have all (and will all) make mistakes - it is simply that some of yours are in a public arena due to the nature of your job. You are not, and will not be, the last person to do that either.



I appreciate the time and effort to make an apology for your comments and actions prior to and in the immediate aftermath of what was (for members of this board) an extremely hurtful time.



Strangely I am also glad that you make (and have made) no attempt to apologise for the story itself (though clearly that was JW's vision rather than your own.) Not only wouldn't have been your place to do so, but also if the story was a mistake to those who told it it would make the sacrifice of the character even more pointless (not that I think there was alot of point there anyway - but that is another discussion.)



It is simply a shame that where one person recognises what they did that could have caused offence and pain, two others at ME stand up and cause offence and pain all over again - but once more that is not your responsibility and is the nature of life it seems.



Thankyou SDK - by the way you wrote some wonderful stories that I enjoyed very much in the time I was watching BTVS. Unfortunately that is now past tense for me.



Katharyn

-------------------------


If I want a little pussy, I got my own to play with.
Chance in Chance.


------------------------

[Lisa of Nine]

Mr. DeKnight,

You said, "I know a lot of you feel that my recent apology on the Bronze was far too little and way too late, and I apologize for that, too. But it was sincere. There were no ulterior motives beyond the need to express how sorry I am that my insensitive remarks hurt so many of you. That’s really all there was to it."



I was one of those who yelled too little- too late, (as well as a rather heated "wrong board"). Now, let me say thank you for coming here and following up. I accept your apology. As for too little? Coming here shows a great deal of personal integrity. Too late? Better now than never. I applaud your willingness to extend the olive branch at the BB, and then realizing many of us might not be able to reach it over there.



I will NEVER get over the pain losing what Tara represented caused, but I have NEVER blamed you for doing your job in writing that episode.



I CAN get over my anger at your comments on the SC. I hope you understand that many of my own comments here were as misspoken as your SC comments.



I hope you are sincere about having a positive lesbian couple in a future show. Just remember, this segment of society is maligned, abused, and mocked. We are beaten and killed in real life for being who we are, for loving who we love. We don't need that in our entertainment. If you are blessed to be able create something truly special like the Willow and Tara relationship, please don't throw it away. You can create hope, or you can cause real harm. I hope you've seen that taking the "Whedon road" is the cheap, easy way, and it leaves many shattered, bitter former fans. I hope you take the high road instead.

Best of luck.

Lisa of Nine

[kyraroc]

Mr. DeKnight -



I'd like to add to the chorus thanking you for your comments both here and at the Bronze. The events at the end of season 6 struck many of us here on a deeply personal level, since we feel something unique and important to us was destroyed, and I sometimes think this isn't always fully understood - many people note our passion about the subject without sharing our sense of loss, and come to the conclusion that, one way or another, we're overreacting. While many people have also said they understand and agree, or at least think our reasons are real and rational, enough have treated us like we're just insane to make us sometimes feel that we're shouting into the wilderness. So what you've said means a lot to many, many people.



Real social change always starts with people wanting to make a difference. The knowledge that there are writers out there who understand where we're coming from gives me hope that one of these days we really will achieve equality in the way lesbians are portrayed, regarded, and as a result, treated.



Thank you for adding to that hope.



--- KR

Lost in Ecstacy

[June Leigh]

Dear Steve DeKnight,



It takes courage and compassion to admit one's mistakes, and I admire you for coming here and apologizing. For me, your comments hurt more than the actual episode, because it seemed as though the people at Mutant Enemy had little or no respect towards us, the fans of Tara. After the painful loss of a beloved character that meant so much to us, all we wanted was a little understanding and compassion, but we got little of that. However, I accept and appreciate your apology now.



You're probably a busy man, but I have one humble request. Please try to include more unstereotypical, realistic, and fair representations of minority characters in your future shows. It's because we have so little of them that we love the ones we have so much. I'm not sure if TV producers and writers realize the power they have to affect people's lives. I, for one, would appreciate it very much.



Thank you,



June Lee

Edited by: June Leigh at: 10/21/02 11:44:47 pm

[feena191]

Thank you Mr DeKnight. For apologising, & for coming here to do so. I do believe you're sincere, & we all appreciate that it did take guts to do this.



Feena

-x-

--------------------------

"Run, flee, maybe skedaddle. We're not here to engage, this is strictly recon......what?"

"You said recon, you're like cool monster fighter."

[Pipsqueak]

Steve,



There's not much I can say that hasn't been said already (and much more eloquently) by other Kittens, but here's my $0.02 anyway. Thank you for your apology. Really. It meant a lot to me that you were willing to own up to your part in all this, no matter how small. And coming to this board in particular took a LOT of guts. Thanks for having the courage to speak to us directly.



I don't know if I'll ever get over the loss of Tara, and maybe there's nothing that can be done to completely erase the hurt. But I don't blame you for her death. You're a writer, and you did what you were paid to do. I get that. And no matter how you may have felt during the SC interview, it appears that you understand now just how much the W/T relationship meant to a lot of us. It's nice to know that someone on the ME staff "gets it." Especially now that some of the other writers have insulted us, and Joss and Marti are avoiding the issue altogether .... sometimes it feels like no one is listening. But you obviously have listened to us, and made an effort to understand where we are coming from, and that means SO MUCH.



Again, thanks for your apology. As far as I'm concerned, the slate is wiped clean. And hey, don't post and run! You are welcome here anytime. Good luck on all your future endeavors.

~~~~~~~~~~

"Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions.
It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference.
We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be." -- Angel

[tyche]

I do appreciate your coming here and apologising. I know it can't have been an easy thing to do, especially considering that we're a rabid bunch of evil lesbian homophobes.

I was very offended by your comments on the Succubus Club, and I think that most of the members of this board were too. However, when it comes to apologies, I tend to think better late than never. I appreciate your courage in coming here, and in recognising that your comments did upset people. I realise that you were using sarcastic humour as a defence mechanism in your interview with the Succubus Club, but unfortunately you came across extremely badly as a result.

I don't in any way blame you for Tara's death, because although you were handed the assignment to write the episode, it ultimately wasn't your creative decision. I hope that you and the other writers of Mutant Enemy realise that this particular storyline - and other unfortunate public comments - have hurt a lot of people. Tara probably meant more to me than any fictional character has ever done, not only because of Amber's brilliant acting, but because of the way she was written. And above all, it makes me incredibly sad to have a favourite character taken away for no reason other than to manipulate Willow into a dark place.

Don't get me wrong: I defend absolutely your right, and the rights of Mutant Enemy, to tell your story however you like. I also think that we've got a right to criticise that story, and to tell you the negative impact that it has had on people in this fan community. (In other words, there's a bloody good REASON that we're all really pissed off.)

I have never been able to watch 'Seeing Red' in full - I have seen screen captures of the death scene, and watched a video file of the last 2 minutes of the episode without any sound. But that's all I'll ever be able to do, and I know that I'll never be able to watch BtVS again. I hope that some fans got some entertainment out of the storyline: it was just the last straw for me as a viewer and as a long-time fan of the show.

And finally, as others have said, the Dark Willow/death of Tara storyline has had the unfortunate effect of helping to legitimise homophobic behaviour among fans. Things had calmed down since the furore caused by 'New Moon Rising' - people who were really offended by the W/T relationship had either stopped watching the show, or just quietened down and, perhaps, begun to accept the relationship as an integral part of the show. Now, sadly, homophobes in the online BtVS fan community have a storyline which pandered to their worst prejudices that they can use to advance their arguments. And that, for me, is almost as upsetting as Tara's death. I know that this negative fallout isn't something that Mutant Enemy intended, but it's a consequence of the storyline nevertheless.

If you have got to the end of this post, thank you for reading. I wish you luck with your writing on 'Angel', and for your future career. And I hope this experience will perhaps be a lesson to writers on TV shows: treat fans with respect, and they'll treat you with respect.

Willow worries that the gang won't like her anymore. Maybe she could try to rape one of them, leave a fiance at the altar, and tie up her friends so a demon could kill them. Then she'd fit right in. - My fiance's review of Beneath You.

Edited by: tyche at: 10/22/02 11:43:44 am

[IvanovaDV]

Hey, I deleted the "idiot" in the subject line.



Mr. DeKnight,



I usually try to assume the best on any individual unless proven otherwise, so I have no reason to assume your apology is insincere. Late, yes, but insight or epiphanies don't stick to a schedule.



As to your future work, whether you are "helming" a show or not, you will be judged for your deeds, for how you will depict lesbians...or other minorities, for that matter. I hope for the best.



In your first apology at the BB, I especially liked your appeal to the posters not to pick on the people who criticized you/tptb on these issues.



It is not your fault that shortly after, in the very same place, one of your colleagues stated that a poster who saw the dead/evil lesbian cliché in the ending of the W/T storyline, thereby proved to be a homophobe himself.



I wish they had read your post.



Yours sincerely,

Ivanova

Your sisters are underserviced and we can fix it! - Romano, ER s8e19
I guess i'll just stick with it for a while... as opposed to other people.
Ellen

Edited by: IvanovaDV at: 10/22/02 1:01:58 pm

[Garner]

Mr. DeKnight,



I would also like to add my thanks to you for coming here and apologising. That must have taken some degree of courage and it is appreciated. I still believe, and will always believe, that killing Tara, especially in the way Joss wanted, was the wrong thing to do and socially very irresponsible. However, I never blamed you for that, though I do wish you could have objected more forcefully, and with more effect, at the time this storyline was being discussed and decided on. Be that as it may, I think you more than any of the other ME writers may have a chance to see what W/T truly meant to those here, if you explore anymore of this site.



I wish you the best of luck on Angel. I hope that you are willing to remember that unrelenting darkness and despair are not entertaining, and that if a similar situation should arise on Angel, that you will be in a position to argue more effectively against leading the show into the depths that Buffy has currently sunk to.



Thank you for coming here and for your sincere thoughts.



Garner