The Lesbian Cliche FAQ

[Coma123]

Does he post there often?

[urnofosiris]

Ok so not only is he saying we are homophobes, and that is EXACTLY what he is saying, but now he is telling people who know more about this than he ever will to read and watch the Celluloid Closet?



That poor man, not only do we homophobes totally not understand what the lesbian cliche is about, we also do not understand his carefully worded and intelligent arguments in which he calls us homophobes and tells someone who already read the book to read it. The smell of ignorant arrogance is wafting over to this side of the world. I hope the wind will turn soon.



I can't wait for the next lesson.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

Edited by: DrG at: 10/16/02 3:25:23 am

[tommo]

Ah, apologies for assuming that Mr Greenberg is a straight man. I don't want to get into a discussion of someone's sexuality, as that's a private matter. But let me just say that if he isn't straight, then that makes what he said all the more hurtful.



Again, I apologise for making assumptions about someone's life.

----------
"I'm not coming back."

[urnofosiris]

Well he isn't a lesbian anyway.

It is irrelevant whether he is gay or straight. He called us homophobes and now he is telling people to read a book they already read, making assumptions of his own. We do not see things the way he does, therefore we are either homophobes or we just do not understand what we are talking about. He is twisting and turning and slinging vile accusations our way to distract from his part in that cliche.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

[Willowlicious]

Okay, stunned again. As if I haven't seen or read The Celluloid Closet! This guy is an ass, plain and simple.



And, Superherofan, you did great. I'm sure having him swoop down from cyberspace and attack your post was jarring. Nice composure. Especially since he was being extremely rude...again.



Amy

--------

"And nobody wants to hear this tale. The plot is cliched and the jokes are stale. And baby we've all heard it all before." Invisible Ink by Aimee Mann

[tommo]

Agreed. Because of course, I know nothing about the hardships of being gay. And neither does anyone else on this board. That's basically what he was saying. Despicable behaviour from anyone, no matter what their sexuality.

----------
"I'm not coming back."

[xita]

Drew now won't own to calling people homophobes, how convenient.



Anyway, you know I don't remember the section in the celluloid closet that says, "if you make a character loveable and sympathetic, you can go ahead and kill it."



It must be in that Revised Edition, edited by Drew.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

[Kieli]

Drew needs a LONG education, replete with direct quotes from the Celluloid Closet, so that he can actually back up his arguments since he didn't do anything but pass the buck.....hmm, I can't wait for Willowlicious to dissect him down to his shorts. Maybe then he and Jane might actually admit to their ignorance and insulting behaviour....then again, maybe not. When you're g-d, strange things seem to happen to your logic; you suddenly find yourself without any need for it apparently.



[edited to add: after paying closer attention to his arguments, not only did Drew commit the Strawman fallacy, his argument was inductively weak (even in the face of the FAQ's causal argument supported by the Celluloid Closet. He also uses the informal fallacies of Ad Hominem (where the argument is an attack upon the person rather than the person's ideas...I'll admit to doing that a time or two in a fit of pique), Red Herring and Begging the Question. It seems that Drew and the Kittens are at odds though because, while Willowlicious and other eloquent others have used Mill's Methods to some degree ( his Method of Agreement, Method of Difference and Method of Concomitant Variation), his attempt to utilize these methods falls flat without anything to back up or support his premises and conclusions.



Similarly, it seems that Drew is accusing us of using us of using False Cause, Slippery Slope and Hasty Generalization fallacies to further our own arguments. While that may be true in the case of individuals presenting their own personal arguments, the FAQ is a thoroughly documented, progressive piece of work that is unfortunately always being taken out of context to attempt to fortify ME's Straw Man defense.



A pity, that.]

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Senses"

Edited by: Kieli at: 10/16/02 8:31:55 am

[sam7777]

I hope that fans keep asking Drew about his remarks wherever he posts. it's obvious that he has contempt for Willow/Tara fans and anyone that does not agree with him. Why can't he acknowledge that there is a different point of view even if he desn't agree with at as David Fury did in his Succubus club interview?: C is the interviewer and D is David Fury.

Quote:

---

"C: If you were going to write off Tara, why was it done in such a cliche' manner. There are other ways you could have written her off without falling into the old lesbian sex will be punished by death or insanity cliche'.



D: Um, the issue had nothing to do with writing Tara off. It had absolutely nothing to do with that. It wasn't a matter of losing the character Tara. It was a matter of finding an event that would send Willow over the edge to become vindictive and scary and sadistic and commit a horrible crime. And what could possibly do that, but the death of someone close to her. Could it have been another character? Possibly. It could have been Xander, possibly. But Tara, ya know was the person very very that she was closest too. Was the woman she was in love with. And as far as it being a cliche' of killing her right after lesbian sex, ya know that was never our intention and I see the point. Now in retrospect I see that, what we wanted to show was Willow and Tara were back together. Happy again. They were happy loving couple, because that would be the most heart breaking thing to lose somebody when you're just getting back together and you think ok, everything is gonna be great now. And the fact that we dramatized their being back together um with them spending a lot of time in bed having sex. Ya know it created the impression, I think in a lot of people's minds, that the event of her death was connected to them having sex. And it was totally unintentional. I do understand it, when people ... I go oh yeah, and I am sure Joss probably would have second thoughts. Going ya know what, we should probably have them have sex in the beginning and through the rest of the show they should just be warmly together. Doing things together and um and in retrospect that might have been ya know less insulting to some people. Those who found uh the cliche' aspect, but it really was not intended. It's a good point, it's a good point. We make mistakes ya know that could be one of them."

---

I see dead lesbian cliches.

Edited by: sam7777  at: 10/16/02 9:51:54 am

[Puff]

Do we have addresses to write to about this jerk? Reading what he wrote has to compelled me to want to take action against him, maybe he can become the second writer to apologise for his rude behaviour

-----------------------
You know, it's a real deal relationship and that's why people can relate to it
Amber Benson

[helpful information perha]

some one needs to remind drew that



tara was presented by ME as a lesbian in a lesbian relationship - and that said relationship was handled as "different" from all other relationships on buffy

as was the PR for the characters/the relationship



Every fan can point to the first on screen kiss, of every significant other a scoobie has had - with one exception.



Unlike every other scoobies first kiss with a significant other ME did NOT put Willows first kiss with Tara on screen - we still don't know when it was - why - because Willow's significant other of choice was "a young woman who was vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on her own two feet" - lesbian



First sex - Every fan knows/saw on screen, the first sex every scoobie had with a significant other - with one exception.



Unlike every other scoobie's first sex with a significant other ME did NOT put willows first sex with Tara on screen - we still don't know when it was - why - because Willows significant other of choice was "a young woman who was vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on her own two feet" - lesbian



Whose dating who

Buffy and Willow always talked and shared their dating experiences until - in season 4 - unlike all other relationships willow had had and shared info on with Buffy, Willow hid her relationship with tara from buffy and the other scoobies - no more living through each others "vicarious smoochie" talks - why - because willows significant other was "a young woman who was vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on her own two feet" - lesbian



On going Screen relationships

Every on going relationship a scoobie has had with a significant other has included in your face kissing and sex - on screen and often - every scoobie relationship that is with one exception - willows relationship with tara - which was cloaked in metaphor and took place off screen most of time because her significant other was "a young woman who was vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on her own two feet" - lesbian



The ONLY on screen first W/T ME chose to show was their FIGHT!



ME gladly accepted the PR the show got from the first long term lesbian relationship in prime time broadcast tv

The actress's were on the cover of lesbian mags - why exactly - because they were playing "young women who were vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on their own two feet" - Lesbians



The characters & their relationship PR were handled with the knowledge that they were "young women who were vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on their own two feet" - lesbians



and



the audience saw them as "young women who were vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on their own two feet" - lesbians



You can not put a minority on screen,

make their minority status an element of the storyline choices and publicity and then

turn around and say no no the lesbian relationship we drew out on screen for two and half years is to be ignored when we culminate the relationship by killing/turning evil the two women in it right after their first on screen sex!



DG has given nothing less than a specious argument to obfuscate what REALLY was presented on screen.



ME presented "young women who were vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on their own two feet" - lesbians

and

Used them to play out on screen the same old tired "cliched ending" to a lesbian relationship - one dead right after sex and the other insane evil no more than 60 seconds later



DG's attempt to vilify those who saw exactly what was presented for what it was -



"young women who were vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on their own two feet" lesbians - being made fodder for a producers cliched vision -



is a pathetic attempt to apply the "blame the victim" strategy to exonerate his/ME's culpability -

in once again sending the message

that lesbians

even "young, vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on their own two feet" lesbians -



have NO CHANCE AT HAPPYNESS BECAUSE NO MATTER WHAT - THEY END UP DEAD/CRAZY EVIL IN THE END.



I for one wanted to believe that ME's use of the cliche was a simple a thoughtless mis-step as opposed to a calculated act, but - DG's comment "We wanted you to love her so that when we took her away, the audience would feel her absence as something painful" - leaves no doubt that this storyline was a conscious and willful act to hurt all those who cared for the "young, vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on their own two feet" lesbians



In essence Tara was from the get go mere fodder for a well laid plan to hurt any and all viewers who would come to care for her and willow's relationship. ME set out to make a lesbian relationship so as to hurt those drawn to its portrayal on screen.





Besides the Big screen - celluloid closet book & movie there are now at least two books cataloging gays/lesbians and use of the cliche on the little screen - The Prime Time Closet:

A History of Lesbians and Gays on TV By Stephen Tropiano and Alternate Channels by Steven Capsuto.



I dare say ME has no doubt added a chapter to each for their next edition





(edited with thanks to Ben)

Edited by: helpful information perhaps at: 10/17/02 4:58:15 pm

[emma peel]

Brava, hip. So well stated! Thank you, as always.

Janice

[mscheckmate]

Maybe this is going too far OT, and perhaps it's inappropriate for me to discuss Drew's sexual orientation, whatever it may be. But, so what if he's a gay man? He's still not a lesbian, and lesbians are the group in question, not the gay community as a whole.Gay men and lesbians in general often have different experiences regarding homophobia, and different stereotypes attached to them. We're talking about a cliche' that has colored society's perception of lesbians, not necessarily the entire homosexual community. So, I still think that, gay or not, he should take a step back and listen to what those who have been specifically and directly affected by yet another example of this cliche' have to say.



eta: and if the man who signs your paycheck tells you how to spin this particular controversy, are you, even if you are a gay man who understands our position, going to go out and publicly align yourself with the lesbian community and their supporters, at the risk of contradicting (and pissing off) your boss?

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 10/16/02 12:23:56 pm

[sam7777]

What Drew Greenberg did wrong is to say that folks who see the lesbian cliche are ignorant and showing their homophobia because they don't agree with him. He doesn't acknowledge that there are other ways to look at the storyline. This insults all the fans who saw the lesbian cliche in Tara's death last season. Whether he's gay or not is irrelevant. What he is is narrow minded and unwilling to let people have a viewpoint that differs from his.

I see dead lesbian cliches.

Edited by: sam7777  at: 10/18/02 4:42:29 pm

[Garner]

Blue Pariah I think you have a very excellent set of points here. Nothing like a common enemy to bring people together. The hysterical lesbians approach seems to have failed, so why not go out and try and make them so mad they'll hang themselves. I hope everyone who posts abroad keeps this in mind. We can take the high road as THEY'RE the ones blowing it. All you have to do is watch an ep and you'll realize that. Nothing we say will or won't change that fact.



Garner

[Ben Varkentine]

"Besides the Big screen - celluloid closet book/movie

there is now a book cataloging use of the cliche on the little screen - The Prime Time Closet:

A History of Lesbians and Gays on TV By Jesse Monteagudo



I dare say ME has no doubt added a chapter to it for the next edition"



I missed this on first reading--the author of The Prime Time Closet is Stephen Tropiano, not Jesse Montaegudo.



www.ink19.com/issues/july...loset.html



And Alternate Channels by Steven Capsuto is an even better book on the same subject. But it will be interesting to see what future editions of these books and others like them will say about all this...

Ben Varkentine

"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."--Dorothy Parker

[helpful information perha]

thanks for catching that Ben

I'd pulled the title and name off a website - must have cut and pasted the wrong name.

[Spice Faerie]

LOL Garner. I'm with you on this one.



Spice

"No candles? Well, I brought one. It's extra flamey..."

[superherofan]

In this week's TV Guide, Joss was talking about the international academic conference about "Buffy":

Quote:

---

Zeroing in on this session linking Buffy's last season to the W.B. Yeats poem "The Second Coming", he says, "I'm psyched because [last] season is the bastard child that everyone's mean to. We had a purpose. And for people to take it seriously and not just to say, 'That season was depressing and the villains were nerds,' makes me feel good."

---

Season Six is the bastard child, because people took the images presented in it very seriously. And to say that people are "mean" to it, just makes me want to laugh. But I do notice some similarity between this and Drew Z.'s statement. They're both very reductive about the reasons behind the criticism, i.e. seeing Tara as only just a lesbian, in comparison to seeing her simply as a lesbian, vs. "it was too depressing and the villains were nerds", in comparison to the production quality taking a nosedive and presenting misogynistic and homophobic images. And then, making the emotional charges that the people are being mean or homophobic and prejudiced. And, of course, the insinuation that people just didn't understand what they were doing.



Is it just me, or are the people who are very critical of last season not taken very seriously?

Edited by: superherofan at: 10/20/02 2:49:03 pm

[the kat whisperer]

It's not just you, I got that impression too.



And is this a recent interview, or does JW seriously feel good that a lot of fans hated Season 6, and that as a result he's driven most of them away from watching Season 7?



kw

Xena: "Always looking out for me, huh?"
Gabrielle: "Always."

[superherofan]

It's in this weeks "TV Guide", and he is said to be looking through the schedule of lectures. So, I assume that it's a fairly recent interview.



ETA: Stop being "mean" to Season Six, everyone. You'll make it cry.

Edited by: superherofan at: 10/20/02 2:45:39 pm

[Ben Varkentine]

It's definitely not just you. The consistent theme of the response from JW and Co. has been, if you didn't get what we were trying to do, it doesn't represent a faliure on our part to get our ideas across. And if you hated season 6, its because you didn't understand it.



Does anyone remember that JW quote to the effect that he would rather have 100 viewers who *had* to watch than a million who just kind of *liked* to watch?



He's testing that theory, isn't he?

Ben Varkentine

"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."--Dorothy Parker

[feena191]

Just FYI, the link to the conference site www.uea.ac.uk/~r036/buffy_conference.htm



I'm sure he's very flattered by all this, giving him the academic recognition he knows he deserves [/sarcasm]



Feena

-x-

--------------------------

"Run, flee, maybe skedaddle. We're not here to engage, this is strictly recon......what?"

"You said recon, you're like cool monster fighter."

[Kendahl897]

I'm quite sure that UPN doesn't share Joss' view.. Maybe they can convince that Jerk that ratings do matter, though I'm sure he'll figure that out once Firefly is cancelled....

[Steve DeKnight]

I know a lot of you feel that my recent apology on the Bronze was far too little and way too late, and I apologize for that, too. But it was sincere. There were no ulterior motives beyond the need to express how sorry I am that my insensitive remarks hurt so many of you. That’s really all there was to it.



I know it’s going to take more than words to heal the wound that I so insensitively aggravated. I learned a valuable lesson from my mistake on the Succubus Club, and I hope my actions in the future will balance the understandable feelings of ill will I’ve garnered from so many of you.



- Steve DeKnight

[LostSoul]

Hey DeKnight,



If that's actually you, please pop into the bronzebeta now so we can tell for sure. They have the font to differentiate there.



Thanks,

LostSoul


_____________________________


Thinking of giving Amber a B-day present this year? Check out http://www.geocities.com/ambers_bday_charity/Amber.html

Edited by: LostSoul at: 10/21/02 2:28:57 pm

[urnofosiris]

Lostsoul, judging from his IP he is who he says he is.

Quote:

---

I know it’s going to take more than words to heal the wound that I so insensitively aggravated. I learned a valuable lesson from my mistake on the Succubus Club, and I hope my actions in the future will balance the understandable feelings of ill will I’ve garnered from so many of you.

---

I really hope so. Anger and hurt are emotions I'd rather do without if at all possible. I wish none of this had happened and I don't just mean what happened to Willow and Tara.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

[LostSoul]

Good to know DrG.



But, it seems odd since we've heard the quote before.



I'm hoping that things will improve. I haven't been thrilled with the treatment of Willow thus far this season.



DeKnight - Thanks for popping in. I disagree with how things were handled. But, the only posititve thing is to move on and go about fixing the situation.



I could go on. But, i'm sure it's not anything that hasn't been said. If you truly want my opinion feel free to email me at lost_soul_832@yahoo.com



Thanks,

LostSoul


_____________________________


Thinking of giving Amber a B-day present this year? Check out http://www.geocities.com/ambers_bday_charity/Amber.html

Edited by: DrG at: 10/21/02 2:40:54 pm

[xita]

Thank you for coming here. I appreciate the effort and this shows a great deal about you and your sincerity. It is late, but a lot better than never. I think we've all learned a lot from this experience. Like Dr.G I wish this hadn't happened but it has and I hope we can all walk away better people.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

[LostSoul]

xita - Well put. And I concur.

LostSoul


_____________________________


Thinking of giving Amber a B-day present this year? Check out http://www.geocities.com/ambers_bday_charity/Amber.html