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US Gov attempts to define gender

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US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Shadowcat » Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:49 am

I found this particularly interesting. If the marriage is found legal, then I'll probably be able to get married some day. If not, then I'll be able to legally perform marriages, but won't be able to marry, myself. Grr.

-----------------
Kansas City Star, March 3, 2002
( http://www.kcstar.com/ )

Kansas case adds to debate on transsexual rights, same-sex marriages
By STACY DOWNS

As questions go, those surrounding the probate case "In the Matter of The Estate of Marshall G. Gardiner" are, in a word, exotic.

Can a woman who was once a man marry another man?

Can she inherit half of his estate?

Can she be a woman in Wisconsin and a man in Kansas?

Should same-sex marriages be legal?

And if so, what would be the impact on society?

On Friday the Kansas Supreme Court is expected to rule on the Gardiner case. While it deliberates, denizens of the political and cultural left and right circle and watch.

The case involves the survivors of Leavenworth millionaire Marshall Gardiner. One is J'Noel Gardiner, 44, who, after years of surgeries and hormone therapy, changed her sex to female. After a brief courtship, she married Gardiner, who, 11 months later, died without a will. Now his widow wants half of the $2.5 million estate.

Standing in the way, however, is her 54-year-old stepson, Joe Gardiner. He contends he should have the entire estate because, under Kansas law, J'Noel is a man and same-sex marriages are illegal.

This week the Supreme Court will decide the narrow legal issue - that is, if J'Noel Gardiner is a man under Kansas law.

But its decision may have a profound impact on the national debate about same-sex marriages and the rights of transsexuals.

Changing gender

In 1994, Jay Noel Ball had sex-change surgery. Later a Wisconsin court granted an order amending her birth certificate. She has a doctorate from the University of Georgia and also changed her name and gender on college degrees and transcripts.

Both sides in the case agree she had gender identity disorder, even before puberty. But they disagree whether she is a man or a woman now.

In 2000, a county district court judge ruled in favor of Joe Gardiner, saying his stepmother was born a male.

Last year, a three-judge panel of the Kansas Court of Appeals reopened the issue. "We can no longer be permitted to conclude who is male or who is female by the amount of facial hair one has or the size of one's feet," the court wrote.

The ruling sent the decision back to the district court with a new set of guidelines to determine J'Noel Gardiner's gender at the time of the marriage. Joe Gardiner appealed that decision to the Kansas Supreme Court.

The legal scrutiny and media zoo that followed have been "degrading and terrifying," J'Noel Gardiner said Friday, and she said she shouldn't have to defend her womanhood or her marriage to the man she loved.

"This would devastate him, that the state and the country that he served are doing this to his widow," she said.

Marshall Gardiner had been a Kansas representative, a newspaper reporter for The Leavenworth Times and a stockbroker. He fought in World War II and had served as executor to several wills, including a $10 million estate. Oddly, he left no will of his own.

Without a will, Kansas law says, the heir gets half and the widow gets half.

When Joe Gardiner - Marshall Gardiner's only child - found out his stepmother once lived as a man, he went to probate court and challenged her claim to half of the estate.

"I thought it was an open-and-shut case," Joe Gardiner said. "But it's become so political and so emotional. Strip that away and it's a common-sense decision."

People are born with an unalterable gender, said Joe Gardiner's lawyer, Bill Modrcin. It's the DNA that counts. Any other definition of gender throws out the traditional values of marriage.

"So could two men go in to get a marriage license and one say, 'I'm feeling particularly feminine today'? I would hate to be the poor clerk at the license bureau dealing with that," Modrcin said. "And if gender is open for interpretation, what limitations do you put on it surgically?"

On the other hand, Sanford Krigel, J'Noel Gardiner's lawyer, says gender is interpreted differently state to state. Krigel asks: How can Gardiner be a woman in Wisconsin and a man in Kansas?

"If she married a man in Wisconsin and came back to Kansas, would they be committing sodomy?" Krigel said. "If she legally adopts a child in Wisconsin, would it be considered kidnapping here?"

One of the Supreme Court's tasks in the case is to review an eight-part test to determine gender. The appellate court accepted the test, which was developed by Julie Greenberg, a law professor at Thomas Jefferson Law School in San Diego. Among other things, Greenberg's criteria requires consideration of chromosomes, genitalia, hormones, sexual assignment and sexual identity.

"Gender is not as easy to define as people think, and it has an effect on more people than one would think," Greenberg said.

Lawyers from the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund say it's encouraging that Greenberg's guidelines are considered.

"They're focusing on medical knowledge and the reality of people's lives rather than old-fashioned, narrow notions of what it is to be a man or a woman," said Jennifer Middleton, a Lambda attorney.

Medical experts say one of every 1,000 to 2,000 people in the United States are born with a mix of chromosomes, genitalia and hormones that makes them neither clearly male or female. That affects up to 2.5 million people, Greenberg said, plus those they want to marry.

About 1,000 adults a year undergo sex reassignment surgeries in the United States, according to the International Foundation for Gender Education. Costs range from $12,000 to $20,000 or more. And there are more than 25,000 people in the country who have had the surgery.

The foundation's position is that the government should be out of the gender business.

"Someday, gender is going to be voluntary rather than mandatory," said Denise Leclair, the foundation's general manager. "When you look at it, it's like having separate bathrooms for whites and blacks when the government decides who you can and can't marry."

And in this country, who can marry whom has a long and varied history.

Institution of marriage

Since the beginning of the republic, the American government has had a hand in marriage, said Nancy Cott, a Harvard history professor.

Early in the nation's history, a married white woman had no rights. The ancestral home, the family mule, money from a job all became her husband's. But between the 1830s and 1870s, states began passing property laws that let women keep what was theirs if they divorced.

It wasn't until 1866 that black people in America could marry at all. And it wasn't until 101 years later that a black person could marry a white person in all 50 states.

The same arguments then, Cott writes in her book Public Vows: A History of Marriage and the Nation, are the same ones that pop up now against same-sex marriage.

"Marriage is a cultural and social issue much more than a legal one," Cott said. "It always has been. It always will be."

Marshall Gardiner and J'Noel Ball married in September 1998. Kansas Supreme Court Justice Robert E. Davis, a friend of Gardiner's, performed the ceremony in Oskaloosa, Kan. (Davis, still on the bench, has recused himself from the case.) The couple, their friends said, shared a love for travel and a keen sense of humor.

"They were happy with each other and seemed to reinforce the best in each other," said Terry Snapp, former vice president of university advancement at Park University. "Through her, he was rediscovering Park."

Marshall Gardiner's first wife, Molly, died in 1984. Both were Park graduates. Ball began teaching finance at the university in 1997, and a year later she met Gardiner at a Park banquet.

Gardiner, 85, was short and stocky and dressed alternately dumpy or dapper. Ball, 40, was tall, slender and a classy dresser. They hit it off instantly and became engaged. One night before a game of Scrabble, she told him she once was a man. She said he shrugged, "looked into my eyes and told me he loved me."

"My time with him was the happiest of my life."

But his son said it's difficult to fathom that his father, a man with traditional values, would marry a transsexual.

Men can't marry men, Joe Gardiner said, and his father was no exception.

Same-sex marriage

Some claim that recognizing same-sex unions would destroy the institution of marriage. Others say nonsense. Others aren't so sure.

National conservative groups think if the Gardiners' marriage is valid, what's to prevent same-sex marriage?

"If transsexuals can marry, then there is no reason to prevent a homosexual from marrying another homosexual in Kansas or to prevent a lesbian from validly marrying another lesbian," said Edward White, associate counsel for the Thomas More Center for Law and Justice. "It would be a step toward the destruction of marriage."

The center filed a brief on behalf of Joe Gardiner because, White said, marriage is the core of society, built around traditional family activities. Because men and women unite to have children, he contends, society grows and prospers.

The same-sex marriage debate reaches from Hawaii to Vermont. In 1993, the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled marriage a partnership status, opening the possibility for same-sex marriage. Three years later, in a referendum, Hawaii voters trumped the court and defined marriage as the union of man and woman.

In 1996, Congress passed the Defense of Marriage Act, defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman. No state, it said, needs to recognize a same-sex marriage performed in another state. President Bill Clinton signed it.

By 2000, all but 15 states had passed laws that do not recognize same-sex marriage. Also that year, Vermont began recognizing "civil unions." The state gave same-sex couples benefits of marriage - claims to estate and medical privileges - but reserved marriage to a man and a woman.

What makes the issue different from women's and African-Americans' marital rights, historians say, is that this kind of partnership is not included in the Bible.

"People with an alternative lifestyle deserve our respect, but we won't encourage their lifestyle," said Gary Kendall, pastor of Indian Creek Community Church of Olathe. "We teach people to appreciate and value the gender they are born with. We wouldn't encourage people toward a sex change and would not encourage this kind of marriage."

But the institution of marriage isn't threatened by homosexuals or transsexuals, said Ann Cudd, director of the University of Kansas women's studies program and a philosophy professor. They already bear children or adopt them and raise them. They already live in every other way as if they were married but without the privilege of uniting in name.

"The institution of marriage tries to normalize to heterosexual lines between a male and female," Cudd said, "something that minds and bodies don't always fit neatly into."

Kansas City psychologist Michelle Kelley said marriage provides stability for children. It's character, not gender, that should decide who marries whom.

Jay McKell, pastor of Grace Covenant Presbyterian Church in Overland Park, sees same-sex couples who want to marry. But "the legal system of both churches and the government prevent some from attaining that sacredness that marriage provides," McKell said. "It's a real Catch-22."

Awaiting the ruling

So what will happen after the Kansas Supreme Court's decision?

Greenberg, the law professor who created the gender definitions, said Kansas can make history if J'Noel Gardiner is considered a woman. It would be a standard for other states when they deal with these issues.

But what if the court says Gardiner is a man?

A Texas court in 1999 invalidated a marriage similar to the Gardiners' when it said a male-turned-female transsexual wasn't a woman. Since then, several male-to-female transsexuals in Texas married women.

"I like to joke that Texas beat Vermont in recognizing same-sex unions," Greenberg said.

And if Kansas goes the way of Texas, Greenberg said, there will be a test case in another state.

Joe Gardiner and his wife plan to pursue the issue. They think it will stay in the courts for a long time. If it isn't decided in his favor, he plans to fight the case with a waiver that he believes relinquishes J'Noel Gardiner's claim to any of his father's estate.

J'Noel Gardiner is still a professor at Park. She remains private about the case and its issues, shunning television and radio requests for interviews.

"I'm defending my husband, my marriage and my human rights," she said. "I'm also doing this for the thousands of families like mine."

The university guards her privacy, Snapp said, and doesn't discuss her marriage to Marshall Gardiner.

"The tragedy is that they never got around to writing a will," Snapp said. "If they had, the things that are issues probably wouldn't be issues."

[This message has been edited by Shadowcat (edited March 11, 2002).]

Shadowcat
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Hemiola » Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:40 am

So, according to Mr. White, men and women unite to have children. Does this mean that heterosexual couples that do not intend to procreate should not be permitted to marry? Does this mean that a marriage of heterosexuals who are unable to have children should now be considered invalid?

As Alice said: "Curiouser and curiouser" .

Hemiola
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Zahir » Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:04 pm

You know, I can understand what motivates some folks in opposing same-sex marriages.

Some people of course just use this as a means of trying to maintain control. But others just find the world too full of change and want some stability (methinks those folks need to refocus on some other issue).

But as Ms. Leclair pointed out, we're not too far from changing sex as easily as we get nose jobs. Wait another century and sex changes will be available from vending machines.

I can hope that the Kansas Supreme Court chooses to advance with the times, rather than drag its heels. Let us hope.

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

Zahir
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby sikarja » Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:26 pm

We just had our first same-sex marriages last week here in Finland, though no adoption rights and no church approval and thus no church weddings. So far law and order haven't broken down, there's been no divine retribution and us heterosexuals are still live and kicking too.

Americans are so funny

sikarja
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Dr.G » Mon Mar 11, 2002 2:54 pm

quote:

People are born with an unalterable gender, said Joe Gardiner's lawyer, Bill Modrcin. It's the DNA that counts. Any other definition of gender throws out the traditional values of marriage.


Well there ya go, it is a s simple as that, as simple as when a person is born with a penis, he is a man, and a person born without a penis is a woman. Case closed. Simple eh? No exceptions to the rules. Nope. Cuz that would require, oh dear, accepting things are not black and white.

So what to do for the person who is born without a penis, who gets a birthcertificate that says she is a woman, grows up as woman, looks like woman, feels like a woman and oh boy, then we find out she has XY chromosomes and more testosterone in her veins than Arnold Schwarzenegger could dream of. What to do? Oh dear, better tell her she can't get married to a man and quickly change her legal gender before someone notices. Oh wait, we can't do that, she does not have a penis. Eh. Well shit. That's a bitch. Hmmm.

I wish people would read about these things, think about it, before they open their mouths. Ah and I love it when I see transgender surgery and nosejobs mentioned in the same sentence. I truly love the implication that it is the same thing: unnecessary surgery, luxury surgery. I do not think about cosmetic surgery this way, but it the reputation it has and I resent that transgender surgery is considered to be that way as well, I resent the implication that it is somehow easy, and oh in a perfect furture we can go to the supermarket and get a sexchange if we feel like it. Yeah, whatever.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 11, 2002).]quote:

Dr.G
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Zahir » Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:25 pm

I wish people would stop twisting my words.

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

Zahir
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Dr.G » Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:35 pm

Was I quoting you Zahir? WAS I? I thought you said Ms Leclair pointed something out by using that nosejob comparison. If you feel like I was adressing you, then that is your problem, if the views I was criticizing were yours then maybe you should consider the infinitessimal small possibility that you are not always right. That maybe you were being offensive on this subject yet again, be it intentional or not. And that maybe *I* am entitled to take offense in this case, because this subject affects *me*.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 11, 2002).]

Dr.G
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby tommo » Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:44 pm

Can I just point out the difference between empathy and sympathy? Seems to me there are a lot of opinions on the board that are sympathetic; that is, people feeling for the others concerned in that situation.

I think however, that the role of empathy only comes into play when you can fully identify with a particular situation or person. That is to say, that you have had a similar, or identical experience.

There seems to be a lot of sympathy on the board for gay/lesbian/transgender issues. And that's why I love it here. Always an open and friendly ear.

Empathy, however, is quite different. It requires that extra distance of knowledge and self-assurance.

Just thought I'd point that out.

------------------
You know I've been through hell...Joss can't you see, there'll be nothing left of me. You made me believe...

tommo
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby TaraWannabe » Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:48 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowcat:
People are born with an unalterable gender, said Joe Gardiner's lawyer, Bill Modrcin. It's the DNA that counts.

So, I am woman after all, because since birth I self-identify as female. I was born with that! (I am MtF). But then they talk about DNA. Your physical qualities are defined by DNA, not your gender. Ah, they don't get it!


quote:
Originally posted by Shadowcat:
One of the Supreme Court's tasks in the case is to review an eight-part test to determine gender. The appellate court accepted the test, which was developed by Julie Greenberg, a law professor at Thomas Jefferson Law School in San Diego. Among other things, Greenberg's criteria requires consideration of chromosomes, genitalia, hormones, sexual assignment and sexual identity.


This doesn't sound much better either. The only category that I qualify in as a woman is the hormones as I am on hormone replacement therapy. So, how is this any better than what the others say? (Okay, I don't know how I fare with "sexual identity," since I am bi. Does that make me a woman or a man?)

I am looking forward to hear how this ruling is turning out. Either way, it probably will cause some follow up and further debate. We'll see...

TW
quote:quote:

TaraWannabe
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby shellybean » Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:57 pm

I don't think this issue will ever really be resolved because there will always be those few out there against all this. I was feeling pretty good one day a few weeks ago because I was out with a girl and people at this restaurant were really nice to us saying we were a cute couple. Then the next day while driving to class I saw a car plastered with stickers saying "Vote YES on Traditional Marriage" and "Say NO to the alternative lifestyle" and stuff like that. It just feels like every time we take a step forward we're taking two back.
shellybean
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Zahir » Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:11 pm

Actually, gender turns out to be much more complex than simply XX or XY chromosomes. Just as there's lots more to sexuality than rubbing genetalia (or what type of said genetalia someone has).

But law tends to be years if not decades behind science.

Good news--it does catch up.

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

Zahir
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Wolfie » Tue Mar 12, 2002 3:22 am

Do you know what? If I had really been aware of all this stuff when I was getting married (I know, I lived with my head in the sand - I didn't really understand (even a little) what it's like for so many people until I came on here), I'm not sure I'd have wanted to go through with it. Why should I be able to do something that others aren't allowed to? Marriage is damaged by excluding, not including people. Its a Goddamn ritual; a public declaration - you perform it to each other, to a deity, to those you care about enough to invite. In what way does that relate to society's well-being? It's personal, not collective. I don't change society by telling Sharon I love her, so why should it matter a damn if I do it in public? That's why I got married - and in what way is, say, two people of the same sex doing the same thing undermining society? Hell, I didn't get married to have kids, or to give meaning to a legal process, or to make our Vicar feel included or vital, that's for damn sure.

The thing that really disturbs me, is the sly, offhand way of excluding a section of the population, of preventing them from being able to live their lives without some kind of threat hanging over them. It's taking a simple process and turning it into a way of saying "you belong", and "you don't". Well, I don't want to belong. What makes me deserving? Fucking nothing. I don't give anything to society: I'm not a teacher (not in a school at any rate), or a health worker, or lawkeeper, or anything else constructive. I just play guitar. Oh, and I happened to fall in love with someone of the opposite sex. That makes me really worthy, I don't think. I look at all the wonderful, articulate, sensitive (occasionally demonstrative, but I like that too) people on this board, and I have to remind myself that for some of you, doing something that I took for granted, like, for instance, getting married, is a technical impossiblity, simply because someone else says so. You're right, Ruth - I do feel sympathy, but I also feel a whole lot more. Being on this board has really - and I mean really - opened my eyes.

I'm ranting, aren't I? Sorry, I've gotten carried away. My toe is itching for an ass to kick.

------------------
I am the sunlight on the sides of houses.

Wolfie
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby siera » Tue Mar 12, 2002 3:42 am

quote:
Originally posted by shellybean:
It just feels like every time we take a step forward we're taking two back.

Things do get better, in my country one of the MPs(like senators in the US) is transsexual and represents a notoriously conservative farming town. People's attitudes can change, it's a process that is glacially slow but it can happen.

siera


quote:

siera
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Dr.G » Tue Mar 12, 2002 6:27 am

Wolfie, I love your rants, thank you. You truly care. Like you, being on this board has opened my eyes about a lot of things as well. Ah and as for asses to kick, I can make a few suggestions.
Dr.G
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Shadowcat » Tue Mar 12, 2002 7:00 am

There are a lot of important cases either in court right now, or going to court, that pertain to gender rights. The government is going to have to redefine gender, one way or another. Sure, it'd be great if it didn't have to, if it just said "well, it doesn't matter, you're human and that's good enough", but it enforces a binary gender system and uses it to control the population. If they allowed everyone to have the same rights, then the government would lose some of it's power of people, over who gets to be in the "group" and who doesn't. We couldn't have that, now, could we?

I was talking to the treasurer of GenderPac the other day (she's actually a founding member of my local group, EON), and she was explaining what it is that they do. This organization is so important, because it fights for the rights of all, not just a small group. If anyone wants to check it out, the link is:

http://www.gpac.org/

------------------
Kitty Trauma Victim #123

Shadowcat
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby WiccanBex » Tue Mar 12, 2002 9:12 am

oh, i *do* love people who think that the law makes even the slightest bit of difference to who a person is...

How can Gardiner be a woman in Wisconsin and a man in Kansas?

that's a bloody stupid question...

the law doesn't matter - gender is an individual thing - just like sexuality.

i keep thinking about how homosexual was actually *illegal* once... like, someone, somewhere, actually thought that by saying "you can't do that! it's illegal!" people would actually *not* be homosexual.

what... like... "oh! it's illegal! therefore i *must* be straight!" bah!

i realise that homosexuality isn't the same as transexuality... but the arguement is kinda the same (in my head anyways, and we all know how crazy my head tends to be...)

i mean... do these people really think that the law can determine what gender a person is? or who that person falls in love with?

bah! bah to it all!

the whole law thing just confuses me anyways... as far as i'm concerned, it's *people* who make those kinda of decisions (i'm pretty sure "decisions" isn't what i mean, but i'm sleepy, so... nevermind), not the law...

i love this board... i never used to think about anything very much before i came here...

wait... that makes me sounds rather sumb... that's not what i mean...

what i mean is that my already wide-open mind (you have to be open minded in my family) is pushed stretched even further everyday because of you guys

so thankyou.

------------------
"if you throw a stone, something's gonna shatter somewhere. We're all so fragile, we're all so scared."
Convention review site

WiccanBex
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby willog » Tue Mar 12, 2002 9:34 am

I attended a conference on medical ethics last week for my philosophy course. We were told about a couple in australia who were having a baby, together despite the fact that they are both female. Basically they remove the DNA from one and insert it into a hollowed out sperm, or something like that. The only thing is that women don't contain the genes required for producing a baby boy, so all lesbian chidlren would be female. I looked it up when I got home and found these realted articles...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health ... 431489.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/te ... 769356.stm

This meanst that the arguement that only a man and woman can be married because the purpouse of marriage is kids is an arguement that can no longer be held justifiably. Any combination of gener in a relationship is now unimportant if wanting children.

It's only logical that same sex marriages should follow now.

kate

willog
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Cipher » Tue Mar 12, 2002 5:20 pm

willog, I love that technology will one day make that possible. Have they actually started with a human trial? I heard that a couple had volunteered, but I had the impression the actual attempt was a ways off still. But it doesn't completely address a M/M couple. You'd still need to make an egg (cloning research probably covers that), and there is the YY problem (or would the lack of any X be a non-starter?). A few years ago it was suggested (not sure how well-studied) that a man could carry a baby to term (doesn't seem as safe, though; fewer layers protecting things), but it certainly seems more complicated than the F/F case.

But the absurdity of the "marriage is for procreating" argument is shown (as Hemiola points out) by the obvious flaw that not only do many opposite-sex couples marry with no intention of having children there are also many couples that can't have children. This generally doesn't invalidate the couple's love and commitment to each other. It's also utterly absurd to suggest that allowing marriages between couples who aren't "procreating" anyway would lessen the "society grows and prospers" aspect that Edward White argues is the reason for traditional marriage. Are straight people going to get have fewer children or fewer straight couples get married because other couples are allowed to get married as well? How the heck does that lessen or "destroy" marriage for anyone else?

The attempt to decide this case on the basis of whether J'Noel is a "man" or a "woman" under the laws of a particular state also points out the absurdity of rejecting marriages on the basis of gender in the first place. They either have to acknowledge the reality of transgender and allow a M2F and a man to legally marry, or they deny the reality of transgender and allow a M2F and a woman to marry. Either way is a nightmare for the dictators of others' relationships. Those with any sense would realize that there is no reason to deny either case of marriage, nor any other, on the basis of gender.

Cipher
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby willog » Wed Mar 13, 2002 9:04 am

Theoretically it's totally possible for two men to have a baby, using a hollowed out donor egg, and there are cavities in the males body which would enable him to carry a baby to term and have it delivered by c-section.
willog
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Dr.G » Wed Mar 13, 2002 11:18 am

quote:
Originally posted by WiccanBex:

the law doesn't matter - gender is an individual thing - just like sexuality.


I know what you are saying Bex, but the law does matter. We live in a society governed by it, and in most countries, by law, transexuals, gay people (and others) are discriminated. Legally. Of course the law will not stop someone from being gay or bi or trans or living their lives, but it makes living those lives so much more difficult.

As for the argument about procreation and whatnot, there are holes that can be shot through that as wide as the Atlantic Ocean, just like it can through any other argument against why gay people should not be allowed to marry or why gender/sex is fixed and cannot be changed. Logic does not govern those who make those arguments. quote:

Dr.G
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby EvilAnya » Wed Mar 13, 2002 1:41 pm

Dr.G, you rule. That's all i have to say.
EvilAnya
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Zahir » Wed Mar 13, 2002 2:03 pm

A source of conflict may lie in how different people view marriage--and often from a logical-enough perspective.

For example, a lot of law vis-a-vis marriage deals with offspring. So its not too surprising that's a big factor when courts and legislatures look at the institution.

Trickier is the whole idea of marriage as a life-partnership, because it touches legal matters only indirectly. Besides, marriages can end, while parenthood is forever.

Still, I have faith ridiculous exclusions like these will go the way of anti-witchcraft laws. May that process take as little time as possible!

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

Zahir
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby fell » Wed Mar 13, 2002 8:32 pm

While this should be an issue of personal freedom rather than personal views on morality, politicians on both sides find it a convenient way to bash gays. Like the "Defense of Marriage" act it's hypocritical political grandstanding and a way for them to make themselves look tough by attacking minorities (gays, transsexuals, etc.) who have no political clout. Of course, they insist it's not hate speech, it's about "protecting traditional values."

It never ceases to amaze me that those who insist that protecting personal freedom is government's most important job (and that government is also freedom's greatest threat) are always the first to call for laws enforcing their own narrow-minded views.

The same conservatives who rant about "nanny government" interfering with business owners' rights to pollute the environment, rip off consumers and abuse their workers are the quickest to insist that we need laws regulating what people do in bed and with whom, who can get married and have children, and that governments have the right to kill people for breaking laws.

[This message has been edited by fell (edited March 13, 2002).]

fell
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby La » Wed Mar 20, 2002 1:53 am

Well, here's the (unfortunate) ruling:

Mar 19, 2002 11:07am
KANSAS SUPREME COURT DECISION DEFIES LOGIC
by NATIONAL TRANSGENDER ADVOCACY COALITION
Online version: http://www.gaywire.net/newswire/index.c ... 319-110721

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: DATED MARCH 18, 2002

KANSAS SUPREME COURT DECISION DEFIES LOGIC

The Kansas Supreme Court ruled Friday that the marriage of J'Noel Gardiner to her late husband, Marshall Gardiner was invalid. Chief Justice Donald Allegrucci wrote that despite undergoing all the medical and psychological procedures associated with being a transsexual, "J'Noel remains a transsexual, and a male for purposes of marriage under Kansas law. A post-operative male-to-female transsexual does not fit the common definition of a female." He further determined that Kansas has no "full faith and credit" duty to recognize Wisconsin's judicial determination that reissued Mrs. Gardiner's birth certificate recognizing that she is female and that Kansas marriage can exist only "between a biological man and a biological woman."

"It strikes me as the Supreme court trying to bury its head in the sand and ignore the reality of 21st century science and medicine," said Jennifer Middleton of the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund, in that the decision is largely based upon three-decade-old medicine and case law, ignoring modern science and current decisions.

The National Transgender Advocacy Coalition (NTAC) views this ill-considered opinion to be a travesty of justice and clearly in denial of Kansas' full faith and credit requirements set forth in the United States Constitution. "It absolutely defies logic," fumed Yose?o Lewis, Board Chair of NTAC, "that the very same state that created law which allowed for the issuance of a valid marriage certificate to Mr. and Mrs. Gardiner [would] later determine that their own state procedures for marriage could be deemed invalid!

"Judge Allegrucci and the other justices have invalidated their own procedures, their own laws."

Kansas Rep. Mike O'Neal, chair of the state's House Judiciary Committee, said he doubts legislators will deal with the issue. He said he was disappointed by the court's ruling. "As old as our laws are, do we have to anticipate everything in order for common sense to prevail?" said O'Neal, a Republican.

The biological man and woman argument is clearly based in religion and denies, in addition to modern research, medicine, and law, the right of marriage to post-operative transsexuals and intersexed individuals. Indeed, Jay Sekulow, Chief Justice of the conservative American Center for Law and Justice said "this is the first shot across the bow in the war against the scourge known as transsexuality."

"The decision appears rooted in biblical philosophy," said Vanessa Edwards Foster, Media Director for NTAC. "But what I see is revisionism of the teachings of Jesus: What the Lord has joined together, let 'the Courts' tear asunder? This began as a perfectly legal union. It says a lot when any marriage can be suspect, closely scrutinized, and rendered void solely at the discretion of the Court."

"So much for the institution of marriage...."

NTAC calls for individuals and organizations dedicated to civil and social rights to rise up in action as a coalition in support of same-sex civil unions and marriage of which no court may tear asunder. If a court of law, purely of their own initiative, may undo a legal marriage, what rights may be undone by the courts next?

------------------
~La

"No good sittin' worryin' abou' it. What's comin' will
come, an' we'll meet it when it does."
~Hagrid, from "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire".

La
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Dr.G » Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:02 am

quote:

Sekulow, Chief Justice of the conservative American Center for Law and Justice said "this is the first shot across the bow in the war against the scourge known as transsexuality."

Oh goodie, I am part of a scourge. Do I get a card? My father would have been so proud.

*sniffs*

Now if only they would kindly define a biological male and female for me. I think I was asleep during that particular lesson in medschool. Ah yes I am sure this is all perfectly logical, from their narrowminded, bigoted perspective.quote:

Dr.G
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby EvilAnya » Wed Mar 20, 2002 3:09 am

Now if only they would kindly define a biological male and female for me

I think they're folks who like to dissect frogs and look at living organisms under slides and stuff. Lab coats are optional.

Yeah, the terms bio-male and bio-female(as well as "genetically" male or female) drive me up a wall. What the hell does that mean? sigh.

EvilAnya
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Shadowcat » Wed Mar 20, 2002 7:18 am

quote:
Originally posted by EvilAnya:
Yeah, the terms bio-male and bio-female(as well as "genetically" male or female) drive me up a wall. What the hell does that mean? sigh.

Bio refers to someone who was born, genetically, male or female. I've also seen bio-male substituted with g-boy or g-male, for genetic. It's actually a useful term, especially when dealing with all the different flavors of gender today.

I must say that I find this ruling extremely depressing. Let's hope that the other gender cases fare better. I'm anxiously awaiting the conference in Albany, where I'll be able to raise a political howl with my TG brothers and sisters.

------------------
Kitty Trauma Victim #123

[This message has been edited by Shadowcat (edited March 20, 2002).]quote:

Shadowcat
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby Dr.G » Wed Mar 20, 2002 7:48 am

quote:

Kansas marriage can exist only "between a biological man and a biological woman."

It may be a useful term but it is impossible to define. Most who are born with male genitalia or female genitalia identify as male or female, but even then it is not certain they are what is considered to be genetically male or female. To say that only a biological man and woman can marry is offensive enough as it excludes same sex marriage, but if they say this then let them define it. I'd like to see them try.

I am willing to bet that had Mrs.Gardiner been a lesbian and had she wanted to marry a woman, someone would have stood up and said "you can't do that".

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 20, 2002).]quote:

Dr.G
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby EvilAnya » Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:36 pm

It may be a useful term but it is impossible to define. Most who are born with male genitalia or female genitalia identify as male or female, but even then it is not certain they are what is considered to be genetically male or female.

yeah, that's exactly what i meant. I know the bio- or genetic-prefix reffers to non-trans, but are there chromosome checks before marriage? I know there is a blood test required in most of the united states before marriage, is that what it's for? All i know for sure is that the majority of my trans friends are really offended by the terms which is why i stay away from them.
( edited to add that by 'them' i meant the terms, not my trans friends )

[This message has been edited by EvilAnya (edited March 20, 2002).]

EvilAnya
 


US Gov attempts to define gender

Postby SlayerTazz » Wed Mar 20, 2002 4:02 pm

quote:
Originally posted by willog:
I attended a conference on medical ethics last week for my philosophy course. We were told about a couple in australia who were having a baby, together despite the fact that they are both female. Basically they remove the DNA from one and insert it into a hollowed out sperm, or something like that. The only thing is that women don't contain the genes required for producing a baby boy, so all lesbian chidlren would be female. I looked it up when I got home and found these realted articles...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health ... 431489.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/te ... 769356.stm

This meanst that the arguement that only a man and woman can be married because the purpouse of marriage is kids is an arguement that can no longer be held justifiably. Any combination of gener in a relationship is now unimportant if wanting children.

It's only logical that same sex marriages should follow now.

kate


willog: That is a very very intersting article. Thanks for sharing.

------------------
A dream is a wish the heart makes.

Willow: "You had two eggs, sunny-side-up. I remember because they were wiggling at me like little boobs."
Tara: Sassy Eggs.
quote:

SlayerTazz
 

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