Gilmore Girls

[Garner.]

I also agree that Emily is very controlling and totally understand why Lorelai would want out and feel stifled. No question there, it's just that her relationship with her parents does not seem to have grown from that point. She assumes the worst even when it isn't always needed. On the other hand there are times, like emily encouraging Christopher, where Lorelai is entirely right. Probably a reconciliation between Lorelai and Emly is impossible and wouldn't be good for the show in the long run. I am just impressed that sometimes Lorelai is in the wrong or makes things worse, it shows more depth to the show and characters.

I also agree on Jess and Rory. Attraction from afar, but once they kiss... You get the idea. I also hope we see a little more of Dean in the future, but am not sure how he'd fit in.

Garner

[Ben Varkentine]

Just a few quick thoughts, but they're gonna give away the ending, so if you haven't seen the ep yet, scroll by quick!



1. I was right (oh, how I do love typing that phrase) about somebody throwing Christopher's absence at Rory's graduation from high school in his face. But not about who would be doing the throwing.



2. Luke & Chris both wanting to tear Logan's head off was great. Dueling father figures!



3. Great acting moments from both Lauren Graham and Kelly Bishop in this episode. Lorelei's body language and tone of voice when she knows Luke is upset, and coaxing him onto the dance floor, was perfectly played.



4. And the look on Emily's face when Lorelei hissed "You and me...we're done" at her...well, I'd be curious to know how the rest of you read that look. I think Emily may know this time she's gone a little too far. The question is whether she'll take steps to make repairs this time, or just nurse her wounded pride as usual.



5. I also want to say that even though Chris is going about things all the wrong way, I'm really impressed by how they're keeping him consistent and sympathetic. From the first time he shows up in the series, he has a pattern of reaching out for Lorelei whenever he seems to be losing his grip. So it's completely belivable that he would be doing so now, with Sherry gone, a kid to take care of, and his father dying. And you can't hate him for it, because he and Lor do have a bond, whether true love or not.



6. And just overall, that was awesome!

Ben



"All progress has resulted from people who took unpopular positions."--Adlai Stevenson

[Warduke]

I don't watch the show, but I saw this at TV Guide...

Quote:

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GREAT GILMORE!: Emmy voters, take note: Gilmore Girls' near-flawless 100th episode on Tuesday attracted the show's largest audience in three years and set an all-time series record among women 18-49. Even more impressive, WB's Girls finished second for the night behind American Idol in key demos. That's right, it beat ABC, CBS and NBC. Now, give 'em some of those gold things!

---

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Firefox: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[urnofosiris]

Great news and well deserved. Wonderful episode. Lorelai´s anger is so justified, but that final scene made me feel sorry for Emily. She was so very happy and then *poof*. I can´t seem to make up my feelings about her. The ones I have for Christopher remain very constant though, what a fascinating guy .

Logan is a bit cocky, but I like him. I look forward to the next episode and how this is going to be resolved.

[seurat]

I didn't comment on this episode earlier because I missed the first ten minutes or so originally and wanted to wait until I'd seen the whole show. Now that I have I pretty much agree with everyone else, it was a fine episode as you'd expect when Amy both writes and directs. I would have liked to see Paris in the 100th ep, and personally I wouldn't have picked Emily/Richard renewing their wedding vows as a centerpiece for such an important milestone. But it was really well done, and I loved chunks of it. The reluctant bachelorette party was great, I enjoyed seeing Gypsy again and I loved Lorelai's reactions throughout. (Did you catch that last drink she poured for Emily?) My fave line of the night has to be Rory's "Third ring of hell- party of one" response to the news that Emily had fired her wedding planner for changing the seating plan. I can't say I'm as sympathetic towards Chris as some people, but he certainly is consistent. Hopefully the Luke/Lorelai difficulties won't last too long and we'll get to enjoy their banter again soon. The new Emily/Lorelai fight will last a lot longer I'm afraid. Emily has, in her usual imperious way, really stepped in it this time.

"Life's complications and frustrations/they disappear when the music starts playing/I found a place where it feels alright/I hear a record and it opened my eyes/do you remember what the music meant?" - Speakers Push Air, Pretty Girls Make Graves

Edited by: seurat at: 2/10/05 2:22 pm

[gspiggott]

I like Christopher but he really is kind of played out as the if only love interest , and I wish Lorelai had taken a stronger stance with him after what he said to Luke at the wedding. He 's a well intentioned screw up with wealthy parents and two kids he doesn't pay a lot of attention to. Luke yelling at Logan and Christopher was perfect. Just when you think Emily has grown a little she does something like this and it's back to square one.

Of course it probably helps that ASP isn't stealing all her plots from comic books or other shows. Plot is definitely not this show's strongpoint as much as character.It's still a good show, but I just don't enjoy it as much as I did the first three seasons.



On the subject of animals , don't forget Babette's cat from season one, and Kirk's cat that attacked him and wouldn't let him inside the house in season three.

[Ben Varkentine]

That is great news about the audience and demo triumphs. I wonder how much of that new audience was, like me, people who'd just finished getting caught up on ABC Family and came to the latest episode just in time.



Replying to more than one post at once...

Quote:

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I would have liked to see Paris in the 100th ep, and personally I wouldn't have picked Emily/Richard renewing their wedding vows as a centerpiece for such an important milestone.

---

I did miss Paris, but I had no problem with the vows being the hub of the episode. First of all, I consider Emily to be a "Gilmore Girl" too. And also, as we saw, it made a perfect place for the characters to come together for their conflicts, perhaps the only place: Where else can we logically expect to see Lorelei and Rory and Emily and Chris and Logan and Luke all at once?

Quote:

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The reluctant bachelorette party was great, I enjoyed seeing Gypsy again and I loved Lorelai's reactions throughout. (Did you catch that last drink she poured for Emily?)

---

Oh, yes indeed.

Quote:

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I like Christopher but he really is kind of played out as the if only love interest , and I wish Lorelai had taken a stronger stance with him after what he said to Luke at the wedding. He 's a well intentioned screw up with wealthy parents and two kids he doesn't pay a lot of attention to.

---

I think that's a good take on Christopher. He's never quite figured out what his place in Lorelei or Rory's lives is, or what he wants it to be. The sense I got is that Lorelei was holding a lot in after what he said at the wedding, trying to get a rein on several different emotions/instincts at once: What was Rory doing with that boy, I have to talk to Luke, Chris is losing his grip and drunk ("Christopher! Coffee!"), my mother is trying to manipulate my life again. I think it was all she could do to get downstairs and renew her own vow against her mother, and I assume she left right after.



I fully expect Chris to hear some strong words from both her and Rory in the next few episodes. I also wonder what Rory will have to say to Emily, as she continues to learn that just because her mother is paranoid doesn't mean Emily's blameless.

Ben



"All progress has resulted from people who took unpopular positions."--Adlai Stevenson

[Garner]

Overall I really liked the episode and it was sort of a mean place to end, audience wise. Now I have to wait till next Tuesday to see what happens next! Boo.



Anyway, I was impressed with Logan's forthrightness, and wonder if he will stick to that detachment only out for a good time sort of outlook or Rory will make him more serious? I could see either happening and tend towards these two not really having a solid future together, but a stormy fling as it were. And I still expect Jess to somehow figure in them splintering apart.



I think Ben raised an excellent point on how Rory will react to Emily's messing with Luke and Lorelai. She's already come down pretty hard on Christopher and I could see her being very upset with her grandmother. It would be nice to see Richard's take on all this. I know he doesn't like Luke much either, but I wonder what his opinions will be?



As for Christopher, well, I do like him and all, but isn't Sherry just off on vacation or work or something? He isn't married to her is he? I don't recall that, but he still has the baby and she should be involved in that, or is this the she dumps the baby on him and is never seen again sort? From what we've seen of her I could see her deciding that the baby was too much and getting scared and pulling out of the relationship, but I think this needs to be made clear. I still say Christopher is Lorelai's past and his time is also past with her. They have close ties and feelings, but realy she's moved beyond him.



I liked the wedding vows as the centerpiece, it showed the family heads coming back together and the chaos of everyone else. Really only Emily and Richard got what they wanted relationship wise that night, everyone else is getting messed over. That sort of gives us a springboard for a bunch of new conflict and eps. I would have liked to have seen Paris in the ep somewhere, maybe the bacherloette party, which was very funny. I loved luke jumping at Babbette waking up on the couch as they left!



Speaking of unresolved issues, is Kirk still with Lulu? We haven't seen or heard anything about her since the night at the inn, have we?



And Kirk's cat problem was really cool, I've liked all the cat stuff on the show, but the ones on the proch were the best!



Glad to see the show is going strong and getting some notice for some great acting! Here's hoping there is at least 50 more eps.



Garner

[Webberific]

I'm one of the fans who was die-hard at the beginning, but stopped watching regularly a season or two ago. But I still read this thread. It's cool hearing about what you guys think. I caught the 100th ep and thought it was entertaining. My favorite moment was after Richard did his spiel to Lorelai about being sneaky about the necklaces, and then Lorelai was, Yeah Dad... and she just marched in, held up both the necklaces and said to Emily, "Which one do you want?"



Garner, I'm not quite sure if Sherry and Chris ever got married. But in a recent show, it was made pretty clear that she had left Chris and the baby, and moved to Paris (the city, not the character! ) for career reasons. So Sherry and Chris were broken up.



As for Lulu and Kirk, remember the re-enactment episode a few weeks ago? Lulu was the one who got the role of the ...erm...lady of the evening, much to Kirk's happiness. But she got sick and he took over for her in the re-enactment. So they're still together.

[Thespia]

Well, welcome to the Gilmore Girls Ben, I agree with you about season 4 and that other stuff being a good basis for comparison. I would like to comment more about this show but am currently too distracted by Gatito´s post. GG, let´s take that to the other thread shall we?



Garfield, I also found it displeasant to watch that scene. But that was sort of a mistake in continuity. I remember the episode in which Richard is committed to a hospital and they are all very worried. Luke is there, and Lorelai, Rory and Emily are there too. Luke and Emily talk some time and then she says, 'I think you're both very stupid', meaning she thinks they'd be perfect for each other.



And now this. Maybe they're running out of ideas for mother-daughter conflict, who knows?



Oh, I don't think I have this quoting thing pegged down...

[Ben Varkentine]

Quote:

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Garfield, I also found it displeasant to watch that scene. But that was sort of a mistake in continuity. I remember the episode in which Richard is committed to a hospital and they are all very worried. Luke is there, and Lorelai, Rory and Emily are there too. Luke and Emily talk some time and then she says, 'I think you're both very stupid', meaning she thinks they'd be perfect for each other.



And now this. Maybe they're running out of ideas for mother-daughter conflict, who knows?

---

I remembered that scene too, but I didn't read it as meaning Emily thinks Luke & Lorelei are perfect for each other. I think it just meant she knew they were kidding themselves about being "just" friends but were in fact attracted to each other. Which everybody in town seems to have known except them.



And remember, since then, Emily's told Lorelei on more than one occasion she thinks it's her destiny to be with Chris. What scares her is not that Luke & Lorelei are finally acting on their attraction, but that it hasn't petered out the way all of Lorelei's previous relationships have. And may in fact be getting serious, with Luke potentially Lorelei's husband and Rory's stepfather.

Ben



"All progress has resulted from people who took unpopular positions."--Adlai Stevenson

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

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I remember the episode in which Richard is committed to a hospital and they are all very worried. Luke is there, and Lorelai, Rory and Emily are there too. Luke and Emily talk some time and then she says, 'I think you're both very stupid', meaning she thinks they'd be perfect for each other.

---

Good call, I had forgotten about that. I think that she does know they are perfect for each other, but she does not want to accept it. When Lorelai replied to Emily that she would like to be married and got that dreamy smile on her face, she was not thinking about Christopher and Emily clearly knew it because she turned as cold as ice. She is willing to sell her daughter short, to have her settle for what I can only see as less, simply because Christopher just happened to be born into the "right" family.



I wonder if Lorelai is going to compare Emily´s behavior to what Richard´s mother did to her. That woman was hideously nasty to her and Richard did nothing to stop her and protect his wife. I think he should have, just like I think Lorelai should have defended Luke from Emily´s mockery. She did not, but unlike Richard, I do not think she will let it go unchallenged again.



I still have a hard time believing that Emily would go this far. She must know that this could cause her to lose her daughter forever. Having her marry a man like Christopher could not be worth that risk. I´m interested to see how this will play out.

[Garner]

Thanks Webberiffic for those reminders. I do recall the deal with Lulu and the re-enactment. So she's still around. As for Paris, I took it that Sherry was just in Paris for a while, not permanently there or that they had broken up. That could have been a bit clearer as far as I am concerned.



I think any show that relies on soap operaesque situations has a limited lifespan before the characters start acting unreasonable or out of character. There is only so much back stabbing and sleeping around and all this crap that one person can do. Most lives are mostly dull with a few problems here or there. They might seem big, but they usually don't repeat in an endless cycle. Maybe Gilmore Girls is hitting that time frame now. I do think that Rory has more potential still to explore due to her age and being in college. There is a lot that could be done there. But as for Lerelai and Emily, they seem like they should either end up somewhat reconciled or not speaking again. Given what happened, I would go with the latter.



I did recall the hospital thing and I figured like Ben, that Emily just meant they weren't fooling anyone but themselves. I don't think she liked Luke then. She sees him as the pool boy or handyman around the house, fine for a fling but that's it. That point where Lorelai clearly thought about Luke and marriage was very well done and may have galvinized Emily's feeling that something needed to be done and that Lorelai obviously didn't know what was best for her. Part of Emily's world is that appearances and propriety are way more important than true love. For her anything short of Christopher, or someone like him, would be slumming and not in Lorelai' nor the family's best interest. Keep in mind that rich people also see things multi-generational, who will carry on the family name and fortune? That is all very important to that mindset. Luke is not fit for Lorelai from that viewpoint. I really like how the show has juggled the two views, Lorelai's and Emily's. I also am very interested to see what happens this week. I am definitely a Luke/Lorelai fan, which means that should be doomed too. Ah well.



Garner

[seurat]

Garner, I liked your point about the lifespan of shows although I think GG is less of a soap opera than most. Still I think it's true that they can only play this Emily vs. Lorelai card so many times. I expect Emily will learn some serious lessons this time, and none too soon. Her behaviour towards Luke early in the last episode when he was outside working on the boat was unforgiveable. Although I haven't seen any offical word that the show will be back for a sixth season it does appear to be a near certainty. Hopefully both Lorelai's relationship with her mother and with Luke will be repaired before then. I don't think that Luke/Lorelai is doomed, but they won't be back together right away either.



Logan/Rory is a whole other matter. For one thing, we haven't seen the last of Marty yet, and maybe not the last of Dean either. I kind of like Logan too, it would be good to have him around for awhile. But I'm not too concerned about who they try to match her with, as long as it isn't Jess.



Not to belabor the point about Season 4, but I thought the biggest problem was that Amy was spending a lot of time trying to get the ill-fated Jess spin-off going. Once she set her sights on GG again the show bounced back.

"Life's complications and frustrations/they disappear when the music starts playing/I found a place where it feels alright/I hear a record and it opened my eyes/do you remember what the music meant?" - Speakers Push Air, Pretty Girls Make Graves

Edited by: seurat at: 2/14/05 7:54 pm

[Ben Varkentine]

It's also good to remember that Emily hasn't seen as much as Luke as we have, and as Garner points out, she lives in a world that sees no problem with judging by appearances. He's just a guy who owns a diner and works with his hands.



I have a feeling that any chance she has of making up with Lorelei is going to depend on her realizing how much more than that Luke has been. He's been there in so many ways for both Lorelei and Rory, and I wouldn't be surprised if Rory had a hand in helping Emily realize that.



One of the things that keeps Emily likable in spite of it all is that, in her own twisted way, she does want what she thinks is best for the girls. It's just that her view of what's best is so narrow.



I hope you're wrong about Luke/Lorelei being doomed, Garner...

Ben



"All progress has resulted from people who took unpopular positions."--Adlai Stevenson

[Ben Varkentine]

Quote:

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Not to belabor the point about Season 4, but I thought the biggest problem was that Amy was spending a lot of time trying to get the ill-fated Jess spin-off going.

---

A show having problems when its creator is spread too thin and putting their attention into an ill-fated project?



Nah, that never happens.



(Good lord, does this mean we can expect Jess: The Movie?)

Ben



"All progress has resulted from people who took unpopular positions."--Adlai Stevenson

[urnofosiris]

With some shows it are the creators that ruin it, in which cases it would be best if said persons had stayed away from their own creation as far as possible. This clearly is not one of those shows. The episodes that she actually writes almost always stand out in a positive way.

I have to wonder what they were thinking when they came up with the idea of a Jess spin off. Did they get tons of fanmail begging for one? I can´t imagine that happening, but I can´t think of another reason to even consider making a spin off about that character. They gave Jess plenty of potentially humorous sarcastic lines and interesting storylines, yet to me he seemed as humorless as a rock and his misunderstood angry young man routine failed to interest me after two minutes. I really can´t imagine a show based around him ever standing a chance.

Edited by: DrG at: 2/15/05 1:04 am

[Ben Varkentine]

Quote:

---

I have to wonder what they were thinking when they came up with the idea of a Jess spin off. Did they get tons of fanmail begging for one? I can´t imagine that happening, but I can´t think of another reason to even consider making a spin off about that character. They gave Jess plenty of potentially humorous sarcastic lines and interesting storylines, yet to me he seemed as humorless as a rock and his misunderstood angry young man routine failed to interest me after two minutes. I really can´t imagine a show based around him ever standing a chance.

---

In the recent EW interview with ASP, she says that she thinks the WB never really expected to go forward with a Jess series. She feels they okayed going ahead with the pilot to flatter Milo and "keep him in the stable," as it were.



It's also to do with the WB wanting a spin-off and Jess being one of the only characters who "lifts out." She says they originally wanted her to spin off Luke, taking him out of Stars Hollow. Which she refused to do, because she knew Lorelei was going to fall in love with him. Jess, on the other hand, she knew had to leave Stars Hollow eventually because he hated it there so much.



I don't think I'd have lined up for a show based on him either, but to see Sherilyn Fenn on a weekly basis, I might have put up with it for a while...



ETA: Can I just say, about tonight's episode, Rory, couldn't you have stayed in Stars Hollow long enough to give a couple of people a much-needed slap?

Ben



"All progress has resulted from people who took unpopular positions."--Adlai Stevenson

Edited by: Ben Varkentine at: 2/15/05 10:05 pm

[urnofosiris]

Ugh, Luke and Lorelai both need to get their pride surgically removed, Luke especially. I would have expected Rory to say something to him. She told her own father off several months ago, and rightly so, she could have knocked some sense into Luke. What has Lorelai done that was so insurmountable and unforgivable. Nothing. If he lets her go over this, he´s an ass. If after that message she left he has any doubt at all about the depth of her feelings he´s an even bigger ass.

I loved the scenes with Paris, she never fails to crack me up. She provided the much needed comic relief.

[Munchkin]

Quote:

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I loved the scenes with Paris, she never fails to crack me up. She provided the much needed comic relief.

---

I'm with you on that one DrG. As a matter of fact, Paris (and the awesome Liza Weil) is pretty much my main reason to tune in to GG since.. forever. She's cranky, mean, neurotic, scary, and all-around cute, and I'd rather have a spin-off centered around her instead of Jess .



Added to which, I've finally recognized LW from the various guest appearances and am in awe of her enormous talent. As the distraught wife of the lunatic who stabbed whiny-jerk Carter and the hapless Lucy in ER, LW's successful conveyance of heartbreaking disbelief made me feel sorrier for her rather than the two regulars I was expected to care about (one of whom died, which unfortunately wasn't Carter).



In the Law & Order: SVU episode where she played the young mistress of some rich married older guy who was killed by her neighbor who later raped her before she shot him dead, her crying scene in the interview room actually had me on the verge of tears, even before she was revealed to be the Eeeevil mastermind behind the botched plot to only kill her rich boyfriend's wife.



And in Paris's first-ever episode of GG, when Rory 'accidentally' broke Paris's lovingly-constructed model before the class presentation, instead of worrying about how Rory was going to fix the problem and salvage her precious First Day at Chilton, all I thought was how horrible she was because "she made Paris CRY!"



So if you'll excuse me for not mentioning anything else about the show (Luke/Lorelei, Rory/Logan, etc.), its simply because I don't really care. All that matters is Paris. At least, to me.

______



Dave C.

[urnofosiris]

You are absolutely right. I thought a GG spin off would never work, I can´t believe I did not think about Paris. She has the presence, the humour, the looks, just everything needed to carry her own show. If only.

[Ben Varkentine]

LW also had a small but memorable part in an episode of West Wing. She plays a low-level White House staffer who leaks the fact that the chief of staff, Leo, spent time in rehab for an addiction to alcohol and pills. She's fired at first, but he rescinds it after he meets with her and learns the reasons for her actions. She truly thought it was dangerous for him to be in his position; her father was an alcoholic. It's a nice little scene.



If you have good video stores in your area, you might want to look for a terrific independent coming-of-age film called Whatever, in which LW stars.

Ben



"All progress has resulted from people who took unpopular positions."--Adlai Stevenson

[seurat]

It was a fine ep, not the wittiest perhaps, and not written by Amy but very good anyway. Lorelai's call to Luke was heartbreaking and Lauren played the scene note perfect. It almost makes me wish I had actually managed to sit through all of The Way We Were so I could get the references. And you'll notice that Luke did rush over, and would have stayed and talked to her if Lorelai had asked. Which she didn't of course. Hopefully someone will give one or both of them a swift kick soon to make them smarten up. Meanwhile the Rory/Logan thing is still looking good, for a little while longer at least. I liked the doll party bit and would have liked to see more of Michel in that situation.



Paris was great, loved the demand for a Boggle game and the love advice scene. Did make me miss Madeline and Louise though, no one could play that scene funnier than those two. Would Paris make a good spin-off? Well, sure , but she would need a good ensemble to surround her. Would be fun to see them try, but I think it's highly unlikely.



I also like that they left Emily and Richard totaly out of this ep. There's no way Lorelai would want to talk to them now, doubtless Emily will try to approach her first. Does Rory know what Emily did yet by the way? Lorelai must have told her something of what happened, but would she have spilled that part?

"Life's complications and frustrations/they disappear when the music starts playing/I found a place where it feels alright/I hear a record and it opened my eyes/do you remember what the music meant?" - Speakers Push Air, Pretty Girls Make Graves

Edited by: seurat at: 2/17/05 2:37 pm

[Ben Varkentine]

1. I'm just wondering how long ASP can keep Luke & Lorelei saying everything to each other except what they need to say. There's drawing out the emotional suspense, and then there's just screwing with your audience.



2. My biggest problem with Rory/Logan, Rory/Marty or Rory/anybody at this point isn't even that I like or don't like any of them with her at this point. It's that I don't care about them while Luke & Lorelei are broken up, and almost all the time they're onscreen, something in me is saying "You're taking up valuable screen time from Luke & Lorelei!"



3. Kirk singing the love song to and with the third grader was just this side of creepy, but redeemed by L&L's reactions.



4. The Harpo Marx look worked disturbingly well for Rory.



5. I'm still expecting Rory to have something to do with reuniting Luke & Lorelei, and maybe even (god knows how) restoring peace to the Gilmore family. All the parties involved need someone to--metaphorically--slap some sense into them, and Rory's the only one they all respect and care about enough to let that happen.

Ben



"All progress has resulted from people who took unpopular positions."--Adlai Stevenson

[urnofosiris]

I would have expected Rory to give Luke some serious talking to earlier and given that she had told her father to stay away from Lorelai, I felt her half hearted defense of him this episode was somewhat inconsistent. Christopher really is a total wanker. Anyway, I don´t think she will get involved now that she is a bit distracted by Logan. It is pretty clear that neither Luke nor Lorelai are moving on, no matter how hard they try to convince themselves, surely they can´t keep going like this for long.



This week they started to air the first season again. Once episode every weekday. It has been a while since I´d seen them. Episode already made it clear that Luke and Lorelai would one day be a couple. I am impressed at how well established these characters were from the very first episode. The only person who dramatically de-evolved would be Dean. He changed from a nice, reasonably well spoken and well groomed guy who used to walk erect, into a mumbling slouching cave dweller.

It was especially fun to see Paris´ first appearance. She has not changed much either and that is a good thing. I had not realized she is rather short. I guess that´s because when she is throwing one of her angry fits she seems to be towering over whoever is near her.

Edited by: DrG at: 2/23/05 2:49 pm

[seurat]

Great post Garner. To start with your last point first, I still like this season better than S4 so far. I agree that there's lots of serious material this season, but you'll recall last season there was also only then both Lorelai and Rory were in the dumps at the same time. I much prefer if at least one of them is not miserable. And as I'm sure I must have said somewhere far back in the early days of this thread, Season one was and still is my favorite. The characters were established, the show was hugely funny and the dialog was inspired. Still is, but not as consistently. Paris is a secondary character for me too, but a beloved and irreplaceable one.



I actually really liked this ep. I'm taking it on faith that this rift between Luke/Lorelai is the last major one we're going to have to go through. The acting between the two of them as they listened to the song was stunningly good. And as for the Fiddler On The Roof show, who in a million years would have believed they could pull that off? Kirk was actually just good enough to make it bearable but not so good as to make it absurd.(That is to say, the whole idea is absurd, but if Kirk had turned out to be a potential Broadway star it would have been too much) And I absolutely loved Lulu in this ep. She is a major scene stealer. I'm glad you warmed up towards Marty a little bit, because I could identify with his situation with Rory and thought he handled it pretty well. I liked that Rory was straight with him about the situation too, which doesn't mean that she doesn't like Marty or that things might not change in the future. I expect that all of you might be right about Emily, her road to redemption with Lorelai may involve Luke. She needs to make things right with Luke and try to help them to get back together. Whether she's capable of pulling that off I have no idea.

"Life's complications and frustrations/they disappear when the music starts playing/I found a place where it feels alright/I hear a record and it opened my eyes/do you remember what the music meant?" - Speakers Push Air, Pretty Girls Make Graves

Edited by: seurat at: 2/23/05 5:05 pm

[Garner]

I didn't get a chance to post last week so here are thoughts on both recent eps.



Last week: Lorelai was about as devastated as I expected, but she hit rock bottom with that call to Luke and she realized it. She is a very strong, idependent and tough minded woman and her stubbornness kicked in. I would not be surprised to see that no matter how much she wants to be with Luke that she denies it as a self defense mechanism. I think overwhelming this defense mechanism is going to be hard and will require outside intervention to get them back together. I liked that we didn't see Emily or Richard in this ep, but it was great to have Paris back. I do like her, but she is just another great supporting character for me, not the be all and end all of the show. I like Lorelai, Luke, and Rory much better. I don't think a Paris spinoff would work without some very good contrasting co-stars. That being said, she is a great coutnerweight to the show. The parts with Logan were interesting. Again he his sort of an asshole, he could have just told Rory he had people over and they would be in a group situation, but he didn't. That is one of those TV situations where a simple sentence, hey come on over and hang with us would have solved everything but isn't said. I liked how he instantly came to Rory's aid without asking for anything and with no hesitation. The character seems more layered than either Dean or Jess.



This week, for an ep from ASP, it was mildly duller than the norm. Maybe the Luke/Lorelai stuff is too serious and overwhelms some of the other funny bits, I don't know. I did like Paris and Doyle, that was fun, I liked the Marx Brothers stuff and the look on Rory was priceless. Marty was more interesting than normal, I almost liked him. I was suprised they had Rory state she liked Logan so blatantly and dismissed Marty. She didn't do it badly, I just thought they would leave that issue more complicated between the three of them. I liked how Logan offered to pay and was not condescending about it and pretty charming actually, but I found his fondling of Rory's hair at dinner sort of inapporpriate given the circumstances. Maybe that was just me. Personaly I like the Rory/Logan stuff and it is a nice counterpoint to Lorelai and Luke's problems. Speaking of which, boy can they fight! We've seen that before, but the boat incident was neat and shows the passsion between them is still there. Of course the whole Fiddler night was great for that too. Who has elementary kids do Fiddler on the Roof? The Kirk part was very funny and the love song was indeed sort of scary.

Acutally for me the high point was the previews for next week. Finally we get to see the affect of all this on Emily/Lorelai's relationship. I tend to think/predict that it will take Emily to bring Luke and Lorelai back together. As someone else said, Rory is distracted and I think it will take Emily to manage this. The cold shoulder shutout and lack of interaction and maybe a bit of Rory pressure on Emily too could really lead to that. It might not happen next time, but we'll see.



Just a comment in general as I also have liked the first season again on ABC Family and agree Luke and Lorelai were set up from the start, but I find this season so far a bit less funny and amusing than season 4. This season has been good, and a bit more serious, but I do miss some of the quirky humor, we've seen some of that, but the older stuff seems funnier, even season 4. Again, that might be show age and life cycle more than anything else. Or where we are at now.



Garner

[Ben Varkentine]

Quote:

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I would have expected Rory to give Luke some serious talking to earlier and given that she had told her father to stay away from Lorelai, I felt her half hearted defense of him this episode was somewhat inconsistent. Christopher really is a total wanker.

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I don't know if Rory feels comfortable enough with Luke to give him a serious talking to, as much as she likes him--plus we don't know how much they've seen of each other since the breakup.



As for Christopher, her attitude may be a little inconsistent--but it's her dad, for pity's sake, a little inconsistency is expected.



I'm not ready to dismiss Christopher as a total wanker yet, but like Emily, he could stand to make a big gesture to get back in the Girls' good graces.



BTW: I've seen one or two people make the point that Emily is treating Lorelei just as badly as Richard's mother treated her, what with the letter and all. But it occured to me that in a way she's also treating Luke just as badly as...Luke treated Dean. He was convinced that Dean wasn't good enough for Rory, just as Emily is convinced that Luke isn't good enough for Lorelei. Just another example of the kind of layers I really like about the GG writing.

Ben



"All progress has resulted from people who took unpopular positions."--Adlai Stevenson

[Garner.]

Ben raised an interesting point about Luke and Dean. Though I happen to agree with Dean not being up to Rory intellectually, she did seem to be the one getting him to expand his universe and it was only his marriage to Lindsey that dragged him down. I hope we do get to see a little more of Dean later this season just to see what he is doing now. On the other hand, Luke and Lorelai are much better suited for each other, seem to understand each other, and work well together. Do they have a lot in common? Maybe, I would say they have enough that they should be able to last. Whereas with Rory and Dean, I think her time with Jess showed that intellectually she would stagnate with Dean, always be looking for more stimulation, and eventually become frustrated with him, no matter how nice he is. Which is too bad, because I do sort of like Dean, but I actually like Logan a lot better and think he could fit in long term with her better. Big emphasis on 'could' though.

Seurat, I tend to agree the first season or two were the best, but I found parts of the last one very funny, whereas this season has been a bit more soapy and arc-based. Either Rory dealing with Dean, or Luke and Lorelai. Where last year there were more stand alones especially at the start and end with a bit more humor. Not that I don't like this season, and the humor is still there, but it feels a bit different somehow. Maybe watching them each day as opposed to once a week makes a big difference? The stuff with Jason last year was interesting and I didn't think Lorelai was that down in the dumps. The weight from last season was Richard and Emily's breakup and that did cast a bit of a pall on the show. When people who have been together as long as they have break up at such an advanced age, and when they really are right for each other, I think that is sort of depressing and unsettling. You could be in a relationship for 30+ years and it could still fall apart. That is a chilling thought.

Anyway, I greatly look forward to seeing Emily this coming week and what she is going to say to Luke, how this is going to play out.

Garner

[Ben Varkentine]

I don't trust Emily's motivations in talking to Luke. She didn't do it because she suddenly thought of all his good qualities, she did it because she knew he's who Lorelei wants, and Emily wants to take the shortest path to getting things back the way she thinks they should be.



It is interesting to note one of the things Lorelei and Emily have in common is that neither of them can seem to help themselves from pushing. Think of Lorelei in "Say Something" and contrast it with Emily in this episode. The men in their lives tell them to give something time, but they just can't. They have to try to make everything better right now.



I don't think Emily really gave up as much as gave in, albeit probably only for the time being. I see one of her defining drives, at least as far as Lorelei is concerned, as the terror that Lorelei will "run away" again. I think the reason Rory's behaivor at dinner upset her so much is that she saw (or at least sensed) she was creating the same feelings in her granddaughter that she had in her daughter.



I think, or at least I hope, that for both Lorelei and Luke the time apart will have shown them that they are stronger together. I don't think the kiss was a "happy ending/happily ever after" thing--they still have a lot of the same problems. But together, with problems they can work on, is still better.

Ben



"All progress has resulted from people who took unpopular positions."--Adlai Stevenson