The Scary "Let's Talk About Religion" Thread

[xita]

Jenn, I am not understanding, it sounds like it's hard for you to be gay. If you were just Christian it wouldn't be so hard.. it would just be. It's the gay part that adds the tricky part.



And the other part has me confused too, you have a hard time not being judgemental? Is that necessarily a christian trait? I would think that's a universal thing that most people would say they struggle with.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"No more twat. No more twat for me. Twat gets me into trouble!" - Crack Whore Jenny, The L Word

[Jennpurr]

Hey Xita.



No, it's not hard for me to be gay. It's who I am and I accept that. It does make being a Christian tricky because of it, but I know that I was created the way I am for a reason. It's just hard living with the convictions I have for myself and my beliefs and knowing that I'm a lesbian. I do know though, that I won't be faced with anything that I can't handle.



And you're right. Being judgmental is a universal thing. I was just applying it to me. I know that I have my flaws and I've accepted them, just as I know God has accepted them and through my faith, he helps me deal with it.



Sorry if I confused you or anyone else. I didn't mean to. My brain is so full and talk-y tonight, I'm having a hard time keeping up.



Jen

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"And though down here I may not understand; I won't let go of the unseen hand; For It holds the reasons why..." ~ 4 Him, "Why?"

[hot monkey luv 66]

heyy again.



alright, i have typed this three times already, and there has been a mistake each time where it got deleted. so, this is a lot shorter than my original post. sorry. , its 1:36 a.m. and i'm tired. lol



it is 'optional' to get confirmed when you're in ninth grade.

i put it in quotes because it was technically optional for me and the students at my school, but it was implied that you would already take the classes and such. They would pass out the papers for you to sign up, etc.,



the teachers and parents acted like because you went to the school, and you were baptized (both choices made by your parents) that you would immediately get confirmed. they sent the letters TO THE PARENTS OF: students name instead of the student. and your parents signed you up.



In my case, my mother filled everything out for me. and just asked me to sign my name at the bottom. I refused, and she acted like it was my way of 'rebelling', just like when I told her my beliefs when she forced me to go to church with her. (it wasn't the going to church that I had a problem with, I don't discriminate against anyone for their religious beliefs, but she made me do everything as if I was Catholic) and at school, when they didn't get my papers, they called my parents instead of asking me, and my mother told them in her most sarcastic voice that i 'didn't believe in catholcism anymore, but not to worry,it was just a phase and that she would convince me to join the church'



she told me that i needed to join to get married in the church. When I knew I'd never be able to get married in the church, but she didn't know that. She still thinks it's a mistake I wasn't confirmed, and that I'll grow out of the phase where i 'need to rebel, and try to do the in thing'



thanks for listening to my rant at this wonderful hour of the morning, but I'm off to sleep.



--monkeyluv--

Edited by: hot monkey luv 66 at: 3/21/04 10:30 pm

[Gatito Grande]

[Jen - re: 24 and a virgin: you really oughta email me: jcf1962@iwarp.net . It might reassure you, or frighten you, or both! ]



Guys, I didn't mean to suggest we can't have debates about religion on this thread. It's just that when Jen had posted to say "this is what's happening: I'm getting baptized" [decision made, date set], I didn't like seeing her parade get rained on. But I seem to have come on over-strong in my sentiment (Who, moi? ) and for that I apologize.



Let me be clear about one thing: the difficulty I was speaking about in being a Christian (in the U.S., as w/ Jen and I) was strictly internal difficulty, not external (social disapproval). However, if I take my brand of Christianity (gay-positive Episcopal) into much of "Christian America", I can and will run into plenty of social difficulty!



Though I tried to convey that I thought it was difficult to be a member of any religious tradition, I see that some still didn't think I went far enough (any religion or ethical community, 'kay?). I have to admit though---GG about to give offense again alert!---that I don't put a lot of stock in a "I'm just trying to be a good person" non-religion. In Christianity, there's a saying that "One Christian is No Christian", and I think that holds true broadly. To not have any kind of religious/ethical community to which one is accountable is, I believe, a license to cut ethical corners. "Trying to be a good person" is all well and good, but some of the most self-centered people you'll ever know most likely sleep well in their beds at night, safe in the knowledge that they are "trying to be a good person." It's having someone else, bound to you by a common code, who can call you on the carpet, which gives morality the sword of justice: it's a lot harder to be selfish, when there's more than just one's self involved. [An excellent example would be the "sponsor" in AA or some other 12 Step program---a non-(explicitly) religious community most definitely bound by an ethical code.]



It's not a perfect system (duh!): too many religious communities let their members get away w/ murder (sometimes literally, thinking of your stereotypical Roman Catholic Mafia family. Or Billy Graham vis-a-vis whatever Republican is in the White House! ). Moreover, it is of course possible to have accountability w/o an explicit code binding one to another (a good friend will perform that function!). However, I believe that the combination of 1) an explicit code, w/ 2) a re-enforcing community, is the best guarantee that selfishness can be contained. YMMV!



Now, as to infant baptism (or indeed, any infant religious ceremony): as I said, I too was baptized as an infant. While Confirmation as a teen doesn't carry w/ it quite the same level of liturgical drama as getting baptized then would have, I understand the theology infant baptism (Jesus: "You did not choose me, I chose you" John 15:16) and can honestly say I think I benefitted from the "grace" conveyed by the sacrament (there's a bunch of Anglo-Catholicism for ya, but since you asked hot monkey luv! ).



From my time married to a Baptist, I learned a lot about that tradition. I thought they were all noble and principled about insisting on Believer's (adult) Baptism . . . until I found out they have a ritual called "Baby Dedication" that functions almost exactly the same as infant baptism (so that baby gets to wear the christening dress!) ---so it seems we're talking about a distinction w/o a difference. Psychologically speaking, I think that extended families and faith communities like to gather around a new baby to collectively "oooh" and "ahhh", and claim said baby as one of their own. Similarly, there's a psychological need for an adolescent (of any age, in the faith), to mark a passage to adulthood, and adult membership in a religious tradition (hence adult baptism, confirmation, bar/bat mitzvah, the "vision quest" among a lot of indigenous religions, etc. A number of religions circumcise---hopefully just males! ---at adolescence too. Ouch! )



GG Whoo! That's a lot of religious talk---can I get an Amen, somebody? Out

[justin]

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"Trying to be a good person" is all well and good, but some of the most self-centered people you'll ever know most likely sleep well in their beds at night, safe in the knowledge that they are "trying to be a good person."

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But isn't it also true (as I think you imply later) that there are plenty of self centered people who sleep well at night thinking that they're good and that they're doing god's work.

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It's having someone else, bound to you by a common code, who can call you on the carpet, which gives morality the sword of justice: it's a lot harder to be selfish, when there's more than just one's self involved

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But doesn't that imply that part of the reason for behaving in a moral fashion is that you're afraid of being punished.



Also when there is more than one self involved then isn't there the danger that you'll end up living by that other persons moral codes rather than your own. I think the more people there are the greater the danger that people will run their lives by the group ethic rather than being true to their own principles.

Postel's Prescription: Be generous in what you accept, rigorous in what you emit.

[sam7777]

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To not have any kind of religious/ethical community to which one is accountable is, I believe, a license to cut ethical corners.

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GG: Perhaps but I don't agree. Many people with religion also cut ethical corners and many atheists do not. Having religion can also be seen as a license to cut ethical corners in the treatment of others outside your faith. However, that is no more a fair assessment of all religions than your generalization of atheists.



Some of the most moral people of my acquaintence are atheists. I believe in God but their example has shown me that belief in God is not a necessary component to a good life. If people can choose to be baptised, they should also be able to choose their faith or no faith. Society has laws that bind all of us to "a common code" so that the addition of religious rules is not a necessity. There is also a community of humanity with values that we all are a part of. I fear that when people say they are "saved" they are implying that others are not ebcause they don't have the same religion and/or belief system.



The problem with religion for many people is that some of strong faith do make moral judgements based on that. For example if you believe that Jesus Christ is your savior and guarantee for heaven, it's not a stretch to look down on those who don't or just pity them as misguided.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 3/22/04 11:14 am

[urnofosiris]

Again I think Justin and Sam have said it better than I can, but I am still not going to let that stop me.

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that I don't put a lot of stock in a "I'm just trying to be a good person" non-religion. In Christianity, there's a saying that "One Christian is No Christian", and I think that holds true broadly. To not have any kind of religious/ethical community to which one is accountable is, I believe, a license to cut ethical corners. "Trying to be a good person" is all well and good, but some of the most self-centered people you'll ever know most likely sleep well in their beds at night, safe in the knowledge that they are "trying to be a good person."

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Well you put up a fair and appropriate warning that you were going to be offensive so I will put up a sarcasm alert.



Trying to be a good Christian is all well and good but some of the most self-righteous Christians you'll ever know most likely sleep well in their beds at night, safe in the knowledge that they are "trying to be a good Christian. I'll bet Mr Bush sleeps soundly at night believing he is acting according to the will of the god he believes in when he is about to deny a group of people equal rights because they act in a manner not compatible with his religiously dictated ethical beliefs. I am sure our good friend Mr Gibson sleeps extra well knowing he is raking in the millions and offending millions at the same time with his vision of Christ. Maybe for some living according to the ethical standards made up by others is a license to not think for themselves and how their ethics and actions affect others.



None of my family members and friends have any religious beliefs to guide their actions in life. They are not saints but they are good people. They do not cut moral or ethical corners because they do not have a religious or ethical community to put them in their place should they 'stray', they do not cut corners because they don't have to worry about repercussions in the after life. They don't cut corners because they are good people. Trying to live their life not at the expense of others but with others. I will put all the stock I have in them and less in those who would take the moral high ground over them.



Jen, I am glad your day went well and I would like to see pics if you have them. I think I understand what you are trying to say though I may not agree with it all. I definitely do agree with you on the baptism issue. I feel you should be old enough to decide for yourself (don't ask me how old is old enough ). I have been told that my father wanted to have me baptized, not because he was really religious, but I think he had been baptized too and it was more of a just in case thing. My mother said no and I am grateful for that.



I have a question maybe you could answer for me, if I read you correctly, you believe that in order to be saved you have to have accepted Jesus as your savior right? I wonder what do you suppose happens to children who lose their lives before they are baptized or people who live in a part of the world where Christianity is not the religion being taught? It always puzzles me how people can believe that others are doomed if they do not believe in Christ or God, it seems rather unfair to those who never got the chance and who still lived a good selfless life.



I am not trying to be a pain in the ass (really). I am just trying to understand some things better. I do wonder whether there is more to life than living and dying and my beliefs -or rather- theories have varied over the years. I never believed in a god, yet at times I have found myself fervently praying (to whom or what I do not know) for something. I have been convinced at times that there has to be something after life ends. I even believed in reincarnation for a while, but not anymore. Whenever I contemplate things like this it raises questions I can't answer or the answers undermine what I believed.

Edited by: DrG at: 3/22/04 2:32 pm

[Diebrock]

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I don't put a lot of stock in a "I'm just trying to be a good person" non-religion. (...)To not have any kind of religious/ethical community to which one is accountable is, I believe, a license to cut ethical corners.

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That must be the reason why people in France, the Netherlands, Germany, Skandinavia are so much more depraved than people in America and have trouble getting their societies to function.



Oh wait... They don't! Strange, isn't it.



PS. I agree with what the three posters before me said so eloquently. Especially DrG's post, as the most remarkable event in my family connected with religion was my Opa (grandfather) throwing his bible at his teacher's feet in middle school (I think he's still proud of that ). To question their morals or ethics because they hold no religious belief is one of the more bigotted statements I have read/heard. But don't worry. I know some Christians just can't help themselves when it comes to infidels or, worse, atheists.

_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

Edited by: Diebrock at: 3/22/04 1:58 pm

[Warduke]

Very well said Diebrock.

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To question their morals or ethics because they hold no religious belief is one of the more bigotted statements I have read/heard

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Didn't you know Diebrock, if you're not a christian, then you're nothing more than a heathen

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Firefox: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[Gatito Grande]

I think that we are having an apples and oranges problem here. I say "religious or ethical community" and some respond "but I'm an atheist!" So? Atheists can't have ethics? Of course they can! But I don't think that they (or anyone else) can avoid the problem that "One ______ is No _______". If one's atheism is disconnected from other atheists---without discussing morality, as a binding component in one's atheist community---uncontrolled selfishness is a constant threat.*



[There are a number of forms of atheistic ethical communities: many forms of Buddhism are atheistic (as are many Unitarians and some Quakers), there's the Ethical Culture Society---just a couple of days ago I was listening on the radio to the founding rabbi of "Secular Humanist Judaism": a atheistic community that still finds meaning in Jewish traditions and the Torah. I'm sure there are many more. I think some revolutionary political movements function in this "binding ethical code" way also. And, as I mentioned before, there are 12 Step program-based communities.]



A suggestion that "the law" can be this binding communal code has been suggested. Hmmm: this may be a difference between Americans and others, I'm not sure. In the U.S., outside of lawyers (and I'm not even sure about them), most Americans are irreverent towards the legal system, That is, they treat laws as nuisances, for which loopholes are to be sought . . . unless a given law "protects me" however! (There's that selfishness thing again). But maybe non-Americans (of democratic countries) have a sense of communal loyalty toward their laws (that is, they don't treat them as "it's not illegal if you don't get caught")?



Finally, I think there may be some prejudice at work here: because so many Kittens have had such horrible experiences w/ Christians, and because I'm a Christian, it's hard to take me seriously when I say 1) I don't believe that non-Christians are going to hell 2) I don't believe there's anything inherently "truer" about Christianity than other religions/ethical systems (once again, including ethical atheism), 3) I don't believe Christians are more moral than others (as I---as well as some of you---have cited, this is frequently not the case) and last but not least 4) Real Christians Know Gay is Good Believe me, no one regrets/loaths more than I do that so many Christians are *ssholes. But that's because they misunderstand and/or fail to live up to the ethics of the Gospel, not because those ethics themselves are lacking. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you": makes sense, no? (and hence, why "the Golden Rule"---in its positive or negative variation---is a part of just about every religion).



Beyond this, we may just have to agree to disagree. It's not that I think that a person w/o a religious/ethical community can't be a good person. But w/o a code, just what does "good" mean, anyway? It's because Dubya is a Christian, that I can be so certain that he is failing to follow the Gospel (in the same way that, because I'm somewhat familiar w/ Islam, I can be certain that Osama Bin Laden is such a sh*tty Muslim).



GG Being held accountable by a fellow believer (of a given code) isn't about punishment, it's about Seeing the Bigger Picture, than is provided by the Almighty Ego. Out



*Because I in no way believe that atheists are necessarily less moral than religious believers, I hope this takes care of the (wrong!) suggestion that I think that more atheistic countries are less moral than the U.S. (No one who thinks that way could possibly have read any of my anti-U.S. rantings on the Politics thread, huh? )

[sam7777]

GG: I think you place too much emphasis on a "code" and a community and less on people's personal responsibiltiy. I don't need commandments or a religious community to tell me that murder or theft is wrong.



I also don't believe there is a prejudice against christians on this board. No one is denying anyone's faith that I can see and I think most of us are christians reflecting the demos of the US. I took to task your statement that atheism is "a license to cut ethical corners" which I think is an unfair general statement about atheists as is this statement:

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It's not that I think that a person w/o a religious/ethical community can't be a good person. But w/o a code, just what does "good" mean, anyway?

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The atheists that I know have never been raised in any religion yet they know what is good and bad with a "code" or community. I disagree with you but that does not mean that I am saying that all christians are anti-gay (I'm not) nor that christianity is all bad (especially as I am a christian).



The problem with religion is that when your faith is strong and you know the "truth" you can't help but feel prejudice and in extreme cases heresy if people question your religious ideas.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

[darkmagicwillow]

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I say "religious or ethical community" and some respond "but I'm an atheist!" So? Atheists can't have ethics?

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I suspect it is the other word--community, not ethics--that is the primary issue here. As your post indirectly hints at, there is no unity among atheists, because atheism isn't a belief; it's a lack of a belief, and in much the way that Christians don't define their community or ethical beliefs by their lack of belief in Thor or Wotan, atheists don't define their community or ethical beliefs by an absence of belief in Yahweh or any other deity.



Atheists, as a tiny minority in the U.S. with no shared belief to unite them, are much less likely to have a shared community of the type you discuss, though as you mention, some atheists have non-religious beliefs such as Buddhism which can unite them and find a community of the type you suggest.



However, the majority of atheists that I've met do not want to belong to such a community. They tend to be of an independent mindset, viewing ethics as a personal issue into which they've put much thought, and find it offensive to suggest that an external community is important in order to have or follow an ethical code. While you're right that communities are effective in enforcing conformance to a code of behavior, the problem many of us have with them is that we don't agree with the codes of behavior supported by such communities around us and don't want our ethics dragged down by theirs, and thus find communities of the type you discuss more of a hindrance than an aid to living an ethical life.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 3/22/04 6:24 pm

[Jennpurr]

Garfield,

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Jen, I am glad your day went well and I would like to see pics if you have them.

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Thank you, sweetie. Well, some pictures were taken, but I'm not sure how they turned out. I don't have them developed yet. Um... I'm going to the zoo tomorrow with my family. The two cameras I had, still have some pics left on them. I'm planning on using them up tomorrow and I hope to have my pictures developed this weekend. Should I post a link to them here? I'd be happy to share them.

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I think I understand what you are trying to say though I may not agree with it all.

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That is perfectly fine. I didn't want anyone to think that they had to agree with anything I said because you don't. What you believe is unique to you and I respect that.

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I definitely do agree with you on the baptism issue. I feel you should be old enough to decide for yourself (don't ask me how old is old enough ).

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Hee... I'm not sure how old is enough. I think you're never too old to be baptized. I wanted to do it for a long time, but I could never find the right church, but I have found it now and I jumped at the opportunity.



Being baptized is a very personal decision. It's certainly not for everybody and it shouldn't be. There's alot of responsibility that follows the decision. It's one that I am glad I made and for me personally, the responsibility that is following me doesn't frighten me, but it has left my heart heavy. It's a good heavy. I feel overwhelmed with love and I feel so much different today. I'd do it over again if I could.



Now, for your question:

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I have a question maybe you could answer for me, if I read you correctly, you believe that in order to be saved you have to have accepted Jesus as your savior right?

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I want to be careful with how I answer this question because I don't want to offend or upset anyone. Just bear with me and feel free to yell at me if I do something wrong.



I think, everyone's definition of being saved is going to be different. For me, when I was saved and I got on my knees and asked God to come into my life and bless me, that was the right way for me. My life isn't in my hands anymore. It never really was. I gave it to God and that decision is a humbling one for me and one I would make again, 100 times over, if need be.



I don't really know how to answer your question any better than that. To you, what you feel is right... that's what you should do. No one can make that decision for you.



But, for me... for me to be saved, that's what I had to do. I place my trust and my life in the hands of a man I have never seen because it is right for me.

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I wonder what do you suppose happens to children who lose their lives before they are baptized or people who live in a part of the world where Christianity is not the religion being taught? It always puzzles me how people can believe that others are doomed if they do not believe in Christ or God, it seems rather unfair to those who never got the chance and who still lived a good selfless life.

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To be completely honest, I can't answer that question and I don't want to know the answer for it. There's only one person who has the answer and his wisdom is beyond my comprehension. God is love, that's all I know. His perfect love... it's in his decisions. I don't question him.



I don't know what else to say, except that. I don't have an answer for you. Sorry if I disappointed you.



I'll let you know when I get my pictures back. Thanks for asking and your interest.



*HUGS*



Jen



ETA: GG, I sent you an e-mail.

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"And though down here I may not understand; I won't let go of the unseen hand; For It holds the reasons why..." ~ 4 Him, "Why?"

Edited by: Jennpurr at: 3/22/04 8:01 pm

[Gatito Grande]

dmw has reached the crux (pardon me! ) of the issue (I think the "individual mindset" is problematic), so I don't want to say too much more, except this:

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I took to task your statement that atheism is "a license to cut ethical corners"

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I emphatically did not say that. It's lack of communal accountability which I see as the problem (and not all the hyper-individualists w/ the license "make the cut" as it were, just that there's a greater danger of it).



GG dmw: if you don't like the codes of any existing (atheist) group, can't you found a new one? I'm sure there's at least one other atheist out there who'd love to compare notes w/ a brainiac like you! Out

[sam7777]

GG: Thanks for the clarification. I disagree with you on atheists lacking "communal accountability" or needing a "code". They are not living in a vacuum but with other people in a community. In the end, morality and good behavior is up the the individual not matter what religious/ethical community they belong too.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

[Diebrock]

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If one's atheism is disconnected from other atheists---without discussing morality, as a binding component in one's atheist community---uncontrolled selfishness is a constant threat

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You know for an atheist god is no big deal. Sounds logical. So not believing in god is no big deal either. Which makes me believe that members of an atheist community would really have nothing in common with each other only because they are atheists. Unless they want to define themselves against religion. But for me that would give religion a place in my life which it doesn't deserve.

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dmw: if you don't like the codes of any existing (atheist) group, can't you found a new one? I'm sure there's at least one other atheist out there who'd love to compare notes w/ a brainiac like you!

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You don't seem to understand why people wouldn't want to found a group. An atheist group. A group of people who have nothing in common except not believing something ("and every tuesday we meet and don't believe in god together" ). That's not really something that brings people together. I don't see a difference to founding a group of people not blond, or a group of people who are indifferent to Xena: Warrior Princess or a group of people who just don't play tennis. Being an atheist is a very unimportant part of who I am. I don't walk around thinking 'I don't believe in god', any more than I walk around thinking 'I'm not left-handed' or 'I have two legs'. Why should I? It's a fact. There is no conflict inside, no questioning, no nothing. It doesn't in any way, shape or form impact my life. I understand that being religious is a big part of people's lives but the only time it becomes an issue to me is when I talk about religious matters with other people. Anytime else it's non-existent.

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But w/o a code, just what does "good" mean, anyway?

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For me the Wiccan "An harm ye none, do what ye will" pretty much nails it. It's not a code, it just tells you to let people be as long as what they do doesn't affect others (incl. animals, nature).





And last but not least, I'm having trouble connecting your statement that "I in no way believe that atheists are necessarily less moral than religious believers, I hope this takes care of the (wrong!) suggestion that I think that more atheistic countries are less moral than the U.S" with the constant threat of uncontrolable selfishness that we are under.



Because I really don't believe that you are saying that, as the moral level in Europe is not lower than in the US even though we have considerably more atheists, atheists are much better at controlling their selfishness themselves than religious folks who need the constant supervision of their community.

_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

Edited by: Diebrock at: 3/23/04 12:16 pm

[Gatito Grande]

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Because I really don't believe that you are saying that

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. . . and this is the problem I have been having on this thread of late (ever since I spoke up in defense of Jen). sam says that it isn't prejudice, but I don't know what else to call it. Every statement I make saying that I don't believe that atheists are in any way inferior to religious believers has been consistently disbelieved (by those who've responded).



It seems I am being called to declare that atheists are better people than religious believers (or at least better than Christians). I'll meet you this far: atheists (self-identified, who seek to be good people) are usually more moral than your average American Christian.



GG Does that work? Out



[Diebrock, as you are not American, maybe you could speak to my query as to how people of your nation view your laws, generally speaking? Are they actually respected in and of themselves, as opposed to how I believe Americans view laws (as annoyances, unless they're in one's personal self-interest)? It seems to me that the European model of the "social welfare state" does in fact embody a greater collective morality---an implicit code---than does the (increasingly) laissez-faire American model.]

[urnofosiris]

I take that rolling eye smilie to mean you are exasperated at people apparently misunderstanding you. I apologize in advance if I continue to do so.

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Every statement I make saying that I don't believe that atheists are in any way inferior to religious believers has been consistently disbelieved

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I'll take your word for it. It just did not sound like that when you said:

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To not have any kind of religious/ethical community to which one is accountable is, I believe, a license to cut ethical corners.

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It is a bit hard to translate that into something other than a slight against atheists, and seeing as you preceded that with a warning that you were going to give offense it can hardly surprise you that I and/or others actually took offense. How was I to read that. How am I to read that? My family and friends, and myself included are not part of a religious-atheist-ethical whatever you want to call it community. Does that mean we are more likely to cut ethical corners? Are their own moral standards not sufficient to keep them from acting in a questionable manner. Do they need to have a moral/ethical/religious community looking over their shoulder to protect them from becoming selfish unethical beings?

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If one's atheism is disconnected from other atheists---without discussing morality, as a binding component in one's atheist community---uncontrolled selfishness is a constant threat.*

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Also not easy to not take a teeny tiny bit of offense at that. Like others have pointed out, I don't think there is really such a thing as an atheist community, or if there is, I am unaware of it and not a member of one. A lot of my countrymen are atheists, but that does not make us a community. We did not decide to go live here so we could all be atheists together. I also don't generally go around discussing morality with my 'fellow atheists'. If I start doing that will I be better protected against that uncontrolled selfishness? I don't think it has really been a problem for me and my friends, family and colleagues (who work their asses off to help others) so far, and I do not feel more at risk than anyone else, not that I know what anyone else feels, but I don't understand why this would be a constant threat for me specifically.



To avoid any further misunderstandings, maybe you can define an ethical community for me so I might understand you better and not give you the feeling that I am prejudiced against all Christians by questioning and not agreeing with you, though I don't think that calling you upon your statements equals prejudice against Christians. I do not disagree with you because you are a Christian (if that were the case I would always disagree with you, it may seem that way now, heh, but I don't) or any past experiences I might have with Christians. I would be very careful to accuse other posters of prejudice. It is not a minor accusation to make.

Quote:

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It seems I am being called to declare that atheists are better people than religious believers (or at least better than Christians).

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It seems to me like this is calling me (or others) to declare that atheists are not better people than religious people. I don't have to do that because I never said atheists are better people than anyone. I think it is safe to say that any one person, regardless of religion or lack thereof is capable of being selfish, prejudiced, mean, unethical, good, caring, honest etc.



Jen, thanks for trying to answer my questions. I think I understand what you are saying. I am happy for you for the strength and joy your faith brings you. Myself, I believe that if there is a god and if that god is going to judge me it will be for everything other than my not believing in a god. Time will tell whether I am right.

Edited by: DrG at: 3/23/04 4:11 pm

[sam7777]

GG: I don't think it's prejudice. Prejudice to me is someone dissing you just because you are christian not disagreeing with what you have to say about atheists. I don't want you to declare that atheists are better people because they are not. They are just people. However, what I do disagree with is your saying they should have an "religious/ethical community" whether religious, atheist or not. This sounds to me like you are trying to tell them what to believe. I don't think that's the point you are trying to make but it does sound like it.



Diebrock and DMW from what I read are trying to give you their point of view from the atheist side. This sounds more to me like a discusion of the issue of whether or not a "religious/ethical community" is required to be good with pros and cons. I think it's an interesting discussion and one worth having. I'm certainly learning alot. The difficulty with religious discussion that I find is that when you have a strong belief system, it seems bad when people question or disagree. This is why religious discussions are so difficult to have.



I am happy for Jen that she got baptised. As a Catholic, I got baptised at birth and I agree it's better to do it when you know what you are doing. Choosing to be baptised certainly would tie me to a church more than having it doen at birth has. I appreciate that Jen is willing to post here and talk about her faith. I'm certainly learning alot from what she has to say. This is a thread to discuss religion. People will agree and disagree and the moderators will certainly step in if anyone is dissing another person.



I'm done now. Once people start talking about prejudice and being attacked, I don't want to participate in the discussion any longer. I'm not out to hurt anyone. I simply believe in what I say and like to discuss it. I certainly don't take it personally when folks disagree with me but if the discussion is hurtful to you, GG, I don't want to be a part of it. Thanks guys for all the info. I can't believe all the areas that Kittens know about.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 3/23/04 3:41 pm

[Jennpurr]

Garfield,

Quote:

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Jen, thanks for trying to answer my questions. I think I understand what you are saying. I am happy for you for the strength and joy your faith brings you. Myself, I believe that if there is a god and if that god is going to judge me it will be for everything other than my not believing in a god. Time will tell whether I am right.

---

You're very welcome. I'm sorry I couldn't give you a direct answer to one of them, but the simple reason for that, as I said, is because I don't have one.



Thank you for your kind remarks regarding my faith and what it means to me. I appreciate you saying that. And, all we have is time. Although, that time seems way too drawn out for me right now. I guess I'm just anxious. I know that there are better things that await me that are not on this earth and I guess I'm trying to rush them. I have to learn to have better patience. I'm work in progress, I tell ya.





Sam,



Thank you, sweetie.

Quote:

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I appreciate that Jen is willing to post here and talk about her faith. I'm certainly learning alot from what she has to say.

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I'm always willing. I think I was born to be. I'd be curious to see what you have learned from me? If you would be willing to post about it? If you'd rather not here, please feel free to e-mail me. My e-mail is in my profile. I look forward to hearing from you.





GG,



Thank you for sticking up for me. I appreciate it.



Jen

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"And though down here I may not understand; I won't let go of the unseen hand; For It holds the reasons why..." ~ 4 Him, "Why?"

[Jennpurr]

Sam,



You probably didn't count on this when you wrote that, but you made me cry. It's okay. I just... no one has ever said anything like that to me. Thank you, sweetie.



God has blessed me with many things in my life, his love being the greatest of them all. It's easy for me to project it and give it freely. I think that's why he blessed me with it in the first place. It's in all of us... you just have to know where to look to find it.



Thanks again, love.



Jen



ETA: Bob,



Forgive me? I just now saw that you had asked me a question that I must have missed some how.

Quote:

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So Jenn, are you still planning to share the photos from your baptism?

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Yes, I am. As soon as I get them back. I'm going to drop them off Thursday after work and I should have them back on Friday or by this weekend at the latest. I'll post them then. Thanks for asking.

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"And though down here I may not understand; I won't let go of the unseen hand; For It holds the reasons why..." ~ 4 Him, "Why?"

Edited by: Jennpurr at: 3/23/04 8:24 pm

[xita]

I am not sure it really matters if you're babtized or not when you are too young to know what is happening to you. I think if you are raised to have freedom in your life that's what matters. I was babtized but I was also raised to choose what I could do with my life. The babtism means nothing to me, and I don't really care that I had it because I don't believe in it. In order for me to resent having had it, I would have to believe that there was something holy in it, which I don't.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"No more twat. No more twat for me. Twat gets me into trouble!" - Crack Whore Jenny, The L Word

[sam7777]

Jennpurr: I simply admire the beauty of your faith and feel priviledged that you are able to share such an intense experience with the rest of us. You just remind me of the things that I do admire in religion: the love, charity and reaching out to others. Everyone finds their own path in life and there are many roads. Thanks for sharing yours.



I'd like to take a crack at the question that DrG posed that you couldn't answer:

Quote:

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I wonder what do you suppose happens to children who lose their lives before they are baptized or people who live in a part of the world where Christianity is not the religion being taught? It always puzzles me how people can believe that others are doomed if they do not believe in Christ or God, it seems rather unfair to those who never got the chance and who still lived a good selfless life.

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This has always been a thorny issue in the Christian faith. Even in the middle ages this has been a moral dilemma. The Catholic church invented purgatory because they could not deal with people being damned if they repented as christians. The harrowing of hell was invented to get the old testament elders out of hell. When Dante wrote his Divine Comedy, he had to contend with the problem of the virtuous pagans who could nevr know Christ. He put them in a nice part of hell. The answer for me is that all others are not damned though the church has taught that and that the church teachings are wrong.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

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posted by Jennpurr

And, all we have is time. Although, that time seems way too drawn out for me right now. I guess I'm just anxious. I know that there are better things that await me that are not on this earth and I guess I'm trying to rush them. I have to learn to have better patience. I'm work in progress, I tell ya.

---

Gotcha, but don't start smoking or something to get there sooner.

Quote:

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posted by Sam



The answer for me is that all others are not damned though the church has taught that and that the church teachings are wrong.

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Thanks for sticking around Sam. That's what I believe too, sort of ironic me believing something about who is not damned when I don't believe in god, heh.



As for being baptized. I think if my father had persisted and I had been baptized I would not have resented it, but given the choice between being baptized and not being baptized I am thankful that I have not been.

[Jennpurr]

Quote:

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Gotcha, but don't start smoking or something to get there sooner.

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ICK! No thank you. Smoking is nasty, so I won't be doing that.



Jen

||My Fan Fiction and More!|| ||My Yahoo Group||
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"And though down here I may not understand; I won't let go of the unseen hand; For It holds the reasons why..." ~ 4 Him, "Why?"

[jsr]

I've been reading through these posts, and as usual, I feel obligated to drop in my two cents. First I suppose I should provide ya'll with some background on my ideas about spirituality. My ideas (as many of you already know) are very post-modern. This means that I feel my history is as important to my identity as my own personal beliefs. Although I do not practice the religion with any regularity, I still consider myself Jewish. To deny that I am such, simply because I do not believe in a portion of the religious doctrine, would be a slap in the face to all the millions of Jewish people who have died simply because they carried the label "Jew". If Hitler were to tramp through my neighborhood now I'd be gassed twice. Once for being gay, and a second time for being Jewish. It wouldn't matter to him that I hadn't been to synagogue in two years. I'd still be "a Jew". So that is what I am and I am as proud of this part of my heritage as I am my gay identity.



When it comes to actual spirituality, or what "I believe in" my thoughts are very Unitarian. I do believe that some force is out there and that there is some higher order behind all the chaos. Some like to call this "God." I don't really know what it is -- I do know that life is made up of seemingly incomprehenible systems that some how work together to accomplish beautiful things. Such as the human body and the cosmos. I don't think spirituality has anything to do with morality or ethics. It is how one makes peace with his/her existence in this crazy world. This world is so full of experience and ideas that it is up to each one of us to determine what makes the most sense to each of us and carve out our own paths. I try to extract what relevance I can out of many different religious teachings (including Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, and Wicca, to name a few) and disregard the rest. I don't follow tradition merely for tradition's sake -- and I also believe there is a distinct difference between faith and blind faith. I also think that "right", "wrong", "good", "evil", "sin", "holy", "heaven", and "hell" are subjective, constructed concepts that are problematic when used in an absolute sense.



That being said, I would like to probe Jen further on the statement she made below. I'm not trying to offend or preach -- and if mods think this would be better addressed offline, please let me know (jen you can e-mail me at jsreisfeld@hotmail.com)

Quote:

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I'm not trying to preach and I'm sorry if I have come across as doing that. I have one more dilemma and I'll share it now and say I'm sorry up front if I offend anyone. I try to live my life by the Bible. I haven't read the whole Bible, but the morals that I have and know, I try to stand by. Do you know how hard it is to be a 24 year old virgin? Okay, let me ask you this. Do you know how hard it is to be a 24 year old virgin, lesbian, Christian? It's very hard. I want to have a relationship and be happy, but I don't know when or how that will ever happen. Most of the girls that I have met, don't want to save themselves for commitment or marriage. That's what I'm trying to do. I believe in that. I don't want to have sex until I'm married, but I don't see when that will ever happen unless George Bush drops this ban thing he's so adamant about.

---

Jen, I don't know if this will help you in your dilemma at all but here are my ideas on love, marraige, and commitment. I see "marraige" as more of a melding of hearts than a signing of documents. To me that is the spiritual definition of marraige -- when two people fall in love and commit to always care about one another in some capacity. When you feel this in your heart you will know it is right and will not need outside validation to act on it. Do not let the misguided renderings of GW Bush stop you from experiencing this kind of love. True, from a political sense all people should have the right to marry, as it affords rights and priveleges. But this issue is separate from the idea of love. I think you can still be married in your heart.



Jill

[Diebrock]

GG

Quote:

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Every statement I make saying that I don't believe that atheists are in any way inferior to religious believers has been consistently disbelieved (by those who've responded).

It seems I am being called to declare that atheists are better people than religious believers (or at least better than Christians).

---

I haven't seen anyone who would have wanted you to declare one over the other. DrG pointed out the statements where it sounded (to me as well) as if you had, so I leave it at that. I certainly don't want you to do it one direction or the other. On the contrary, that was why I said I had trouble combining your two statements (the passage you are quoting from) because the only logical conclusion I could draw was that atheists would come up on top if your community thesis held up. As I don't believe the religion or non-religion of a person determines if they are good or bad or moral or what have you, atheists can't be inherently better. So the enforcing community thesis has to be not quite right. I was just continuing to pounce on the community issue, not on you!

Quote:

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I'll meet you this far: atheists (self-identified, who seek to be good people) are usually more moral than your average American Christian.

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How about atheists (self-identified, who seek to be good people) and (American) Christians (self-identified, who seek to be good people) are usually on the same moral level?

Quote:

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Diebrock, as you are not American, maybe you could speak to my query as to how people of your nation view your laws, generally speaking? Are they actually respected in and of themselves, as opposed to how I believe Americans view laws (as annoyances, unless they're in one's personal self-interest)? It seems to me that the European model of the "social welfare state" does in fact embody a greater collective morality---an implicit code---than does the (increasingly) laissez-faire American model.

---

I don't know if I can, really. I can give you a few of my impressions and how I feel about it but I won't speak for every or even the majority of Germans. I have no idea if my views are widely shared and maybe I'm projecting.

To be honest until you brought it up I never really thought about respecting or disrespecting the law. I mean...it's THE LAW. And that probably says something already, doesn't it? I think the cliché that Germans love order has probably some truth to it. And to have order and justice and equality and to keep the society functioning you have to respect and follow the law. Or else there would be chaos. Something I don't see in America either, by the way.

So, I guess I'm not totally sure what you're getting at.

Of course most of us respect the laws but that doesn't mean that some laws aren't viewed as annoyances.



A few random thoughts, as I'm not sure what exactly you were asking for...



We had a ca. 40 year old cedar tree in our garden and we really wanted to get rid of it. Our district had an ordinance that said you couldn't cut down cedar trees on your property that either were above a certain height or trunk width; I can't remember which. Now it's not as if they were valuable, native trees and really worth protecting, because if they had been then the neighboring districts would have had such an ordinance as well. But most of them didn't. They finally threw this ordinance out. You won't believe how many cedar trees were gone as soon as it was permitted. So a lot of people didn't like this law but they respected it.



After issues become laws they are pretty much left alone, I think. There was a big debate in the 90s before abortion became legal. Well, it's still illegal, it's just exempt from punishment when done in the first three month and you have attended a counselling session beforehand.

The same goes for the registered partnerships law in 2001. Big debate and attempts by the opposition to not have the law passed and then enacted. But now that it is law you really don't hear much about it anymore (well Ratzinger and his buddies might still make noise but since I ignore them I can't say for sure). And that could be due to an attitude that law is law and thus has to be respected. They might hate the content and they might be convinced that it should never have been allowed to be enacted but it was duely passed in parliament and the Federal Constitutional Court pronounced it to be not in violation to the Basic Law and that's that.



One of the more bizarre reports and images I have seen coming from the US are these protesters in front of places where abortions take place. I don't believe that would happen here. But whether that stems from the acceptance that nothing illegal happens in there and thus they should be able to carry on without haressment or if it's just an attitude of 'you mind your business and I'll mind mine' or something different I can't say.



You know, come to think of it we love laws.

How else would you explain that the Reinheitsgebot (German Purity Law)* is one of the most sacred things in German culture





*A law first enacted in 1516 in Bavaria stipulating that beer can be made only from barley, hops, water, and yeast, and now applied to all German brewers making beer for consumption in their own country

_________________

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[sam7777]

Ah the the Reinheitsgebot, truly a great thing. I lived for 3 years in germany and never had beer as good. The export stuff is just no the same. I miss all of the local varieties.



Thanks DrG. I haven't left the thread just the discussion.

Edited by: sam7777  at: 3/24/04 9:02 pm

[Gatito Grande]

Just stopping by to note that I believe that the furkin' "Pledge of Allegiance" is bad enough without "under God." With it, it's absolutely an Unconstitutional Outrage.



GG Let's hear it for atheist fathers who can argue their own case before the Supreme Court! (All the legal reporters were saying he did a *great* job) Out

[sam7777]

GG: Glad to see you back. Yeah the current government seems to think that separation of church and state is what happens to other people.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches