Location Shoot Report 3/22 - CONTAINS SPOILERS!!!

The Godfather · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 12:55 pm

All I'm saying is that it just seems like a collosal waste of my time if after eps of pain and agony, we just skip backwards and nothing is learned because nothing is recalled...

They need to actually KNOW that Wills can come and unglued.

They need to actually understand how precious life is and how quickly death can come. And sometimes even how terribly horribly permanent it can be.

They're already existing with a demented Superman Complex...and I don't think they're gonna reinforce it by cheapening up the consequences..

-Shawn

Epicurus · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 12:56 pm

quote:
Originally posted by The Godfather:
Epicurus: Welcome to the world of the B/Aer. We've been told for three years to get over it while the writers make comments like.."they're soulmates". The same thing is true of W/T in every sense of the word but people don't care and are often intolerant lil'..trolls.

Sorry, I don't quite see the similarities between the current W/T shipper situation and the B/A shipper situation...

No matter what way the writers are headed, it looks as if there is going to be some really pissed off fans. Hopefully, in the end, I’m not one of them

[This message has been edited by Epicurus (edited March 24, 2002).]quote:

The Godfather · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 12:59 pm

Ok..I see B/A and W/T as the two true soulmate couples of the entire BuffyVerse.

As of late, due to other shipper reasons usually, B/A has been slammed, dismissed and often degraded to support the new.

w/T is amazingly poignant and beautiful but those are those who because of blindness or bigotry or other sad issues refuse to accept it as love and have from day one stampeded to have Tara exterminated.

Any more sense now?

-Shawn

Epicurus · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:17 pm

I see what you are getting at.
My view...
The people who come here and say get over it always claim to be W/T fans but say her death is good for the story. Those are the people I have a problem with.
Do B/A fans say such things as "I'm glad Angel got his own show even thought B/A will never be together because it's better for BTVS"?
Right now there is no issue of someone new for Willow. That story is far in the future. The issue is Tara’s death. Angel didn’t die (for lack of a better word, it’s hard to describe vampire lifes/unlifes)
If Tara were to just be written out of the show then I could see the W/T and B/A comparisons.

Now if I go to a general board (BC&S for example) and see posters say things like "Good, Tara is gonna die" I couldn't care less because I know that there are fans that don't like her. I have learned to accept it. Mind you, I still might type up a response if I feel so compelled but usually if I want to talk shop I head to the place where I feel safe. Here.

It's when the discussions bleed onto this specific forum that upset me and make me defensive.

xita · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:20 pm

quote:
Originally posted by The Godfather:
All I'm saying is that it just seems like a collosal waste of my time if after eps of pain and agony, we just skip backwards and nothing is learned because nothing is recalled...
They need to actually KNOW that Wills can come and unglued.
They need to actually understand how precious life is and how quickly death can come. And sometimes even how terribly horribly permanent it can be.
-Shawn

My problem with this is, didn't they learn that with Joyce? They all thought she was better, then she just died anyway. And it is permanent. What is the point of this repetition? The Body and Tough Love. I have been there, this is boring.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 24, 2002).]quote:

The Godfather · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:23 pm

Xita: I guess I feel like they forgot when they were able to resurect Buffy..

Ah but the similarity would be that many of the B/Aers say that we can understand Angel going to ANGEL because it helps him to grow and hre to grow so they can be reunited as adults. What has happened to ANGEL in that it seems to have no connection to the BUFFYVERSE..it's the same as death.

Do I think Tara dying is good for the show? No..to me she is the moral center of the show and thus is fundamental..

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 24, 2002).]

Epicurus · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:29 pm

Well obviously it’s not the same as death because you get to hold on to that glimmer of hope that they will reunite as adults. The will be no glimmer for us. Just emptyness.
Man, that was a bit sappy, even for me.

I don’t mean to imply that you think that Tara’s death is good for the show. It was a reference to my initial post/opinion.

The Godfather · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:31 pm

Hey..I'm one of you...

I'm on board with you...I've even written fic..

You have to understand..maybe it's my well nurtured denial but I don't for a moment actually believe that Tara will be dead when the credits roll on 22. I still think it will be Anya.

-Shawn

invisigoth · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:36 pm

I don't understand the whole "grow-up" theme for this season in the first place. While Buffy, Xander and Willow each have messed up in their own ways, these are possibly the most mature 21 year olds on the planet. They have for 6 years taken on enormous responsiblity that would make anyone crazy. They've handled death before. They've each had to make their way on their own with minimal parental involvement. And they've saved the world. A lot. When I first heard that the theme this year was about growing up, my first thought was, "huh?" I thought they already were. I don't care if they might now "grow" if there is a reset. They've grown enough. Now they need to learn to have fun, because God knows they need it.

Has anyone read the interview with Marti Noxon in this month's Dreamwatch? In the interview she said that her mom was a lesbian and that she was raised by two women during her teenage years. That gives me some hope that ME won't go down the tried and true dead lesbian cliche route. However, in the same issue Noxon says her mother can always tell when Noxon has written an episode because of its down-beat. That is a less than encouraging sign.

[This message has been edited by invisigoth (edited March 24, 2002).]

Epicurus · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:38 pm

Not trying to be exclusive here, that "us" encompassed you too

and don't worry, Denial is my first, middle and last name.

EDITED TO ADD
oooh I've been graced with the touch of Willowhand.
Me excited.

[This message has been edited by Epicurus (edited March 24, 2002).]

Blue77 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:51 pm

quote:
Originally posted by xita:
BTVS already took the cheap way of driving plot, a reset button is not above them, anymore than killing the dyke for drama.

I completely agree, and frankly it annoys me when people constantly say how much it will worry them or distress them if there's a reset theory ... hello? Why worry when we'll get what we want!!!

I don't understand it, I love Tara and I don't care how she stays alive as long as she does stay alive!!

Objectively, I still find the attitude ridiculous because we don't know how they will do it. Everyone speculated about how bringing Buffy back to life would be lame, but it wasn't!!! I think we need to trust Joss here, I don't know what is going to happen and I don't know how, but I think it will be different to what we're all imagining, even if it's similiar.

Willow may well redeem herself before the end by saving lives even though she's the big bad and that way she'll have grown up blah blah. Although, I agree with the theory that she has already grown up and it's just cruel circumstances that tip her over the edge - I think that would happen to anyone with that power!!!

So, can the people who think it's better for Tara to die than for BTVS to lose some writing credibility ... please shut up!

Tara must be in Season 7 or there's no point watching, and then BTVS will have lost all credibility!!!

------------------
"We must have kissed a hundred times ...It was very nice." ~ Amber Benson

"After one take, [Buffy creator] Joss [Whedon] did say, 'Can we have one [kiss] that's less like you're going to sleep together in about five minutes?' " ~ Alyson Hannigan
The Bodyquote:

The Godfather · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:59 pm

Ok, playing devils advocate here..

Nothing should ever be done just because people want it done like that. Just because Tara will be alive..doesn't automatically make me happy. It has to make sense. It has to work. Tara and Will shouldn't exist within a vaccum in the BuffyVerse..

Story should always drive plot and everything should be logical and sensible. Nor should any of the writers be cowed in their actions..that illegitimizes the show grossly.

Now, for the sake of the story..killing Tara is illogical..but the writers shouldn't simply have their hands tied..

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 24, 2002).]

The Rose · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:06 pm

Amen Blue!!!!!

------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

Willow: Hi, um Tara. How are you? I was wondering maybe you want to go out sometime for coffee? food? kisses and gay love?

Epicurus · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:07 pm

Can I just say that these arguements will go NO WHERE.

quote:
Originally posted by The Godfather:
Just because Tara will be alive..doesn't automatically make me happy. It has to make sense. It has to work. Tara and Will shouldn't exist within a vaccum in the BuffyVerse..

That's where our opinions head in different directions.

[This message has been edited by Epicurus (edited March 24, 2002).]quote:

Ange · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:09 pm

I don't care of what they do with the end of the season. As long as Tara is back and alive. And if she is with Willow, even better. That's all.

Ange.

------------------
"Things are not always what they seem to be...." Shakespare.

Dr.G · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:11 pm

Uhm Shawn what would be an acceptable solution for you? For me *anything* that will give me a living Willow and Tara will do. The show has had it's ups and downs, brilliant episodes and shitty ones.

I agree that I would want the scoobies to remember, otherwise what would be the point? It will just have been to torment us. Not that I want the scoobies to suffer like they will. I agree with Invisigoth, they are more grown up than most grown ups, and they deserve some simple joy. Hopefully they get it next season, but they have to be alive to get it.

Anyway, even if they undo it all without them remembering I can live with that happily ever after because it wil mean Tara and Willow are alive.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 24, 2002).]

xita · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:13 pm

Yes for the sake of not going in circles, let's drop this conversation because we won't agree. There is a contigent that will be happy with Tara at any cost (me included) and some that need it to make sense.

If Joss is still involved with the show at all, perhaps we will all be happy.

Blue77 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:16 pm

I'm playing devil's advocate too ...

How can you say something's stupid or won't make sense when you haven't read it?? (Which by the way was my point, although personally I don't care how because I think BTVS will be seriously lacking without Tara!!)

Are you psychic? Or have a really low opinion of the writers?

I think Tara will be alive at the end, but I don't presume to know how this will happen, I don't think anyone can. The writers could easily come up with something plausible (it's their job, I've read some excellent theories on this board, so I'm guessing that Joss has a much better alternative!!) and I'm just sick of people trying to scully a happy ending all the time!!

And like I said I won't watch if Tara stays dead because that's not sensible, Tara is the only one who could ever teach Wil to use magic again safely and I really don't think Willow will be stripped of that power forever. I think the whole point was that she had to be powerful enough to get Tara's mind back and bring Buffy back to life, but then she couldn't be more powerful than Buffy in the end ... because Buffy's the slayer!! The intention of the plot is clearly to reign Willow's power in and return Buffy to hero status as main lead in the show.

*sighs* 'Look not for the donkey you are sitting on'

LOL *Sam*

Sorry Xita I was already posting - I'll be quiet now, I promise.

[This message has been edited by Blue77 (edited March 24, 2002).]

Pudds · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:17 pm

I'm with Scarecrow on the whole "already grownup by episode 19 business" and no I don't think its absolutely necessary that they remember everything going wrong.

Willow is very fragile, coping with her addiction and then just getting Tara back. To then lose her would tip anyone over the edge. Especially if it turns out to be totally senseless and unworthy of Tara.

The Godfather · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:20 pm

I think I'm being insulted and just not getting it. *laugh*

Ok..last bit on it and I'll drop it..

Dr.G- I want Tara alive. Period. Period. But for me, it MEANS more if it's down with great sacrifice. It means more if because of it..Tara has her own mission in life. It's more poignant if she realizes how important life is and is willing to forgive Will no matter what because death makes her realize this. There is, to me, an unspeakable beauty in this. One that births from horrible tragedy. Will sees what she can become and is disgusted by it..she knows gets the worse she can be..and has learned her lesson. Rock bottom. And her beloved is still there. That to me..is epic.

I can accept her alive no matter what but I find I'd be far less moved and affected if it's a simple reset back to the badroom..bad dream and all..I think some of the ties that bond wouldn't be as strong. Just..not so epic..

Just me.

Shawn

[This message has been edited by The Godfather (edited March 24, 2002).]

ArgyleAlex · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 3:41 pm

I like the idea of Anya using her powers to reverse recent events. Or maybe the last few episodes this season are an alt wish-verse and we don't know it, only one character knows, the one who made a wish(maybe Tara to see what Willow would be like without her around?), and somehow we get back to the real Sunnydale in the end when Tara is alive. Just an idea but the more i think about it the more i think it makes sense, this would keep all the characters for season 7 and keep Tara alive, thoughts, comments?

amberisadamngoddess · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 3:54 pm

Now i may be stating the obvious here, but i think most people who are wanting the reset to happen is because they dont want Tara to die, or all of the other bad things to happen.

Now dont get me wrong, im a W/T shipper of the strongest kind, and i am deadly praying night after night for a reset, but one thing strikes me...

It is so out in the open

Joss and co know how much people use the internet to convey their opinions and spoilers, and when i was at a Mercedes McNab signing today (like how i slyly put that in) i was re-reading this interview with joss in the watchers guide. It said that even when the entire story line has been broken, there can still be last minute changes - literally last minute - due to the extent of what people know on the internet.

Now im all totally for a reset, but if it gets so hyped up, Joss and co might scrap it all together... imagine the havoc

------------------
Amber is a Goddess

mariacomet · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 3:56 pm

I still say...

Willow out of power. Willow falls down on back of truck.

WHO is driving the damm truck?

- Brought to you by Willow's Truck driving institute and Beauty Salon -

IP: Logged

amberisadamngoddess · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 4:02 pm

quote:
Originally posted by mariacomet:
I still say...
Willow out of power. Willow falls down on back of truck.
WHO is driving the damm truck?
- Brought to you by Willow's Truck driving institute and Beauty Salon -

Maybe Willow is magickally driving the truck

P.S - Im not a wannablessedbe anymore. YAY!!!

------------------
Amber is a Goddess

[This message has been edited by amberisadamngoddess (edited March 24, 2002).]

IP: Logged

The Godfather · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 4:04 pm

But she's out of power..hey...maybe Tito..

Sorry sorry..actually it wouldn't shock me if that's the other reason they get away..because when her powers fail..the vehicle crashes..

-Shawn

BBOvenGuy · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 6:26 pm

quote:
Originally posted by mariacomet:
Willow out of power. Willow falls down on back of truck.
WHO is driving the damm truck?

Well...

(a) The truck stops when Willow runs out of power, and

(b) there's a guy inside the cab, who was driving the truck before Willow hijacked it.

Now, let me say just a few words about all the... shall we say "intense discussion?" ... that's been going on while I was off watching the Indy cars today. (And wow what a great race that was, too... )

One of the problems I think we're having as a community - and I think other boards will have the same problem once more of the news about their favorite characters gets out, too - is that there's no acceptable solution to where we are right now. The Buffy writers have already blown it. They've destroyed just about everything that anyone watches the show for - and they've been especially destructive toward W/T fans.

What's the solution? There isn't one. Either they're going to take everything back with a reset, or they're going to let what happens stand. We'll either have to settle for a reset that leads us to ask why they put us through all the torment, or we'll have dead and/or evil lesbians forced on us.

In that light, let's not squabble over the situation. There is no right answer. The only thing left for us to hope for is an outcome that's the least wrong.quote:

Casandra · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 7:14 pm

Hey guys. I wanted to apologize if I came off sounding negative in my earlier post. I honestly don't come here much because honestly I'm not that big of a W/T shipper. But I'm in no way against them either, and I've really been starting to come around to the relationship this season. Which is ironic, I start liking a ship just when it's about to go through its worst time

Anyway, I read thru and saw that you weren't really receptive to people who don't register, so I just wanted to say that I wasn't at all trying to sound negative about you guys or the ship.

As for what's happening:

quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:

What's the solution? There isn't one. Either they're going to take everything back with a reset, or they're going to let what happens stand. We'll either have to settle for a reset that leads us to ask why they put us through all the torment, or we'll have dead and/or evil lesbians forced on us.

And therein lies the problem. There isn't a good way to resolve this anymore. A reset would fix the things that happen, but what would having the things happen in the first place acomplish if they do that. Personally if forced to chose I want the reset, cause the alternative really worries me. If they let what happens stand, we most likely have Evil Willow going into season 7 and Tara dead. That's pretty much as sucky as it gets.

So the writers I think have basically backed themselves into a wall. And I have a feeling however they try and get themselves out, things are never going to be the same again

Casandra quote:

Caesar · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:18 pm

Lets see if we can get an accurate score for all of this.

1. Tara gets killed.
2. Willow goes evil, kills Warren and perhaps may cause the death of innocents.
3. Anya becomes a demon again, and is dead set on retribution.
4. Spike turns evil, he tries to rape Buffy and then gets his chip removed.

Now I can’t really see a single way they could possibly end this season without a major reset.

The Rose · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 9:51 pm

quote:
Spike turns evil

Spike has always been evil. Why can't some people see that?

------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

Willow: Hi, um Tara. How are you? I was wondering maybe you want to go out sometime for coffee? food? kisses and gay love?quote:

Firewalker · **Posted:** Sun Mar 24, 2002 9:55 pm

Yeah I'm unregistered what about it
Now it might just be me, but didn't anyone catch the part where Jonathan and Andrew are in the car with Buffy and Xander. Think about how the writers have been showing Jonathan in the last few episodes, getting more and more uneasy with Warren. Now what part do Jonathan and Andrew play in the nerd pack, they do the magic. Now at what point does Willow go Bad Black Willow, when Tara dies which is suppose to be in episode 20 of a 22 show season. Why would they have to do a major reset that cancels out the whole season when all they have to do is change that one event. And don't forget how many times they showed Jonathan playing with time with his spells. I like my theory alot better then pretending the whole season never happened.
Episode 20: Tara dies
Episode 21: Black leather-wearing Evil Willow
Episode 22: More Evil Willow goodness, until the last 15 or 20mins of the show where Jonathan and maybe Andrew folds time to the point right before Tara's death. Buffy saves Tara, stops Warren. And more W/T goodness.

Please feel free to pick apart my theory, thats just how I see this playing out.

The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe - Willow & Tara Forever

Location Shoot Report 3/22 - CONTAINS SPOILERS!!!

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