Thank you Roxton for mentioning the Spike/flowers scene. I didn't really get that, could someone please explain. What did Willow mean when she told Xander that there was'nt a card? Did that mean the flowers really were for Joyce?
by Nouvelle » Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:36 am
by tvsurfer » Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:38 am
So tara breaking a sacred wiccan oath would not have been a way to honor her mom, rather it would have dishonored all her mom believed in and taught her. and I can't see tara doing that.
by april » Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:41 am
does that make sense? i'm sure someone can explain it better than i just did...
by Roxton » Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:46 am
[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited April 19, 2001).]
by Warduke » Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:07 am
Oh, btw tvsurfer, it's Brian, not Bob 
by tommo » Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:26 am
Anyway, I'm sure Tara knows how dangerous these spells are from personal experience. Remember, she wasn't that much older than Dawn when her mother died.
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"I like money better than people. People can so rarely be exchanged for goods and/or services."
by tvsurfer » Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:55 am
Tommo, wondering why you think tara knows about the problems with the resurection spell from personal experience rather than from having learned its a no no from mom and wishing to honor the religous tenets and thus her mothers memory?
by rocketdyke » Thu Apr 19, 2001 12:08 pm
so what, maybe dawn as the innocent, thinking shes ready to go do battle with the big bad, but really just setting herself to be in need of rescuing?
also, i kind of took tara's silly "we're witches, we know stuff" line to be more like a really simple, almost condescending (without the bad intent) way of trying to get dawn off the topic. sort of a self-effacing way to get dawn to just give in to what they wanted and drop the idea of ressurection, because w and t know dawn is impressed by the fact that theyre witches. and it only backfired, because dawn was like, yeah you *are* witches... i didnt think tara meant to be all serious about that.
but i loved this ep. i was so seriously freaking out most of the time yelling at the tv to get dawn to not do the spell. *everyone* knows you cant raise normal people up from the dead! didnt she see pet cemetary?
michele
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willow: she's like, this cleavage-y slut bomb...
by Chance » Thu Apr 19, 2001 12:47 pm
I don't want to get hurt for saying this, but I liked Tara's "We're witches, we know stuff." line. Now, before y'all jump up and start yelling, let me explain why. It made me giggle, and I think it was intended to be more of a "hee hee" moment, than a "We KNOW STUFF" moment. Albeit, I think there definitely should have been more of Tara's grief lessons and personal experience in there... For instance, when Dawn says "You don't know how it feels." I kind of wanted Tara to be like "Well, yeah, I kind of do." Not because Dawn was being insensitive, but I think it would have given Tara and Dawn a perspective on each other they haven't had before.
I loved the Spike/Xander fight. You could always tell Spike always did genuinely appreciate Joyce. I also think Spike helped Dawn BECAUSE he doesn't like seeing her hurt, either. Spike definitely loves all of the Summers women, just in different ways. I think he cares about Dawn like a big brother would.
I thought Joel Gray had a one guest appearance shot. A one time only deal. Has there been some sort of evidence that his character is reappearing? Eh... Plus, I don't want to see them make a big deal out of this spell, from Dawn's point of doing it... (Willow and Tara can argue, that's fine) but it would be so cheap to have Dawn's human form at risk due to a spell she did in grief. The girl already has enough problems: She's not human, She's a Key that a powerful God is searching for, and she just lost her mother. I don't want to see anything else happen to her.
I dunno, that's just the way I see it.
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"I look at my bed with longing." -Amber Benson.
(I look at her bed with longing, too. Well, I would... if ever I had the chance to see it.)
by tvsurfer » Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:18 pm
Buffy, Forever
Buffy and Angel, sittin' in a tree...
April 18, 2001
Series
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Episode
Forever
Airing Date
2001-04-17
Buffy and Angel, sittin' in...er, under a tree. K-I-S-S-I-N-G. It's a special moment that marks the beginning of this ep, and it's actually handled in a way that's satisfying (ie, not a dream sequence) without taking over the entire hour.
This is due partially to the fine, mature handling of their relationship and partially to that teary, goth-erotic theme song. Damn, I love me some Buffy and Angel Love Theme. In retrospect, that's what was really missing from Buffy and Backstreet...when B&A smooch and their glorious theme music plays, all is right and sad and tragic in the Buffyverse, and we are reminded of just how hot Angel looks in a leather duster.
Anyway, after that swoony moment, we get good stuff aplenty this week, courtesy of The Noxonator. This is a perfect episode for her writing talents -- heavy emotional stuff coupled with little character things in which our Scoobies reflect on the ways of the world. Without losing their humor, natch.
The ep deals mostly with the aftermath of Joyce's death -- Buffy has to deal with all of the formalities, while Dawn is still in heavy denial. While Buff canoodles with Angel, Dawn asks Willow and Tara to help her with a spell to resurrect Ma Summers. Meanwhile, stupid BeN' Sync lets slip a crucial clue about The Key (that it is "an innocent"), prompting Glory to get all jiggy and mix up her slinky red stuff with an excellent zebra print dress.
The Glory stuff is fun (I love it when she goes marginally psycho and rips out her hair), but the real juice is in Dawn's dogged quest to bring back her mom. She manages to enlist the aid of Spike, whose motivations are hazy (though I suspect they're trying to hint that Spike's "human" weakness goes a bit deeper than mere Buffy lust), and he takes her to a crazy old coot played by the divine Joel Grey (and I'm going to smack the next person that refers to him as "Jennifer Grey's dad." The man won a freaking Oscar for Cabaret!). Joel is appropriately impish, creepy, and sports a tail, so you know he's gonna be key later. I like that!
Per Joel's advice, Dawn and Spike get all Jurassic Park, venturing into the lair of a pretty-good-lookin' Monster O' the Week (way better than that snake thing from earlier in the season, anyway -- Dino Boy has three heads!) in order to nab an essential spell ingredient. The scenes between James and Michelle have a nice, easy flow to 'em -- good Spike/Dawn buddy chemistry.
Red is soooo last episode...
The most effective sequence by far, though (and the scenes wherein The Noxonator really shines), is the ending passage, which contains a slight homage to the classic short story The Monkey's Paw. Dawn resurrects Joyce, Buffy breaks down, The Sisters Summers have some great, frantic moments together (Buff even slaps Dawnie...whoa, Dynasty!), and in a final, spine-tingling moment, Dawn breaks the spell just as Joyce is knockin' at the door.
It's good and creepy, but infused with rich, scary emotion. No mean feat, that. SMG and Michelle do fine work together -- it's nice to see how their dynamic has developed into a deeply felt sisterhood in less than a season. Hell, I'm starting to believe that Dawn's been around this whole time.
A couple of final things that bear noting: Anya's scene wherein she feels threatened by Dawn is hilarious (Anya has really become the master of quick, funny throwaways like that), but the Willow/Tara stuff is slightly off. I know that in the moment, Tara is mostly worried about Dawn, but it seems false that she could not know Willow's lying since Willow is quite possibly the WORST LIAR EVER. Seriously. Never become a master criminal, Will, you'll be wearing cement shoes faster than The Sopranos can rack up another boatload of Emmy nominations.
--Sarah Kuhn longs to wear zebra print.
by Warduke » Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:25 pm
by Dave V » Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:34 pm
The last scene of the Tuesday's episode was both chilling and heart-wrenching. Seeing zombie-Joyce pass in front of the window made me jump. SMG and MT were great, they're really pulling out all the stops in their acting.
AH and AB have such great chemistry together - I thought the whole "sassy eggs" exchange was very touching.
My wife was appalled at what Willow did, showing the book to Dawn. I impute less sinister motives to Willow's character than my wife does, but this does point out the difference between Willow and Tara. I agree with Warduke and tvsurfer that Tara did not try to resurrect her mom. Magic for Willow seems to be just another way of exercising her intellect, not the life path Tara seems to take it as.
Re: Willow's inability to lie convincingly - I think Tara had to know Willow was tapdancing around the truth, but the important thing was to call Buffy right away. The confrontation between our favourite witches may come soon, though.
by Kieli » Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:37 pm
quote:
Originally posted by tvsurfer:
IGN's review of Forever is up
they had problems with tara and dawns stuff too
___________
from IGNBuffy, Forever
Buffy and Angel, sittin' in a tree...
April 18, 2001
Series
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Episode
Forever
Airing Date
2001-04-17
(RESPECTFULLY SNIPPED)
*ROTFLMAO* That is SO true. I know that I'm a hideous liar (due to my total lack of imagination) but Will was really pitiful. I laughed so hard and I started to feel bad b/c Will was so obviously uncomfortable with having to deceive Tara (for whatever reason). Really dead on analysis of the ep.
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"I withdrew from the world, not because I had enemies, but because I had friends. Not because they did me ill turn, as is customary, but they thought me better than I am. It was a lie I could not endure."---Albert Camus
by tommo » Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:41 pm
tvsurfer - I was summising that Tara had perhaps attempted, or at least, *wanted* to attempt a resurrection spell. I know that she is the 'head' of the craft whilst Willow is perhaps the 'heart' or 'hand' of the craft.
It was just a thought; when Dawn told Tara that she didn't know how it felt, it made me wonder if Tara *did* know, and if she'd ever tried to quell her grief by bringing her own mother back....something like that...
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"I like money better than people. People can so rarely be exchanged for goods and/or services."
by tvsurfer » Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:58 pm
another review of Forever is up. Its not a very pos review and I have to say I disagree with most of it. If interested its here.
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/commentary/ 0,6115,106756~3~0~buffysheroinecopeswith,00.html
by Halcyon » Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:09 pm
oooh-kay...this is one reviewer who sounds like he doesn't really know what the show's about. especially :
quote:
Despite the much hyped ''Buffy''/ ''Angel'' crossover, the focus was on the heroine's little sister, Dawn (Michelle Trachtenberg) who actually isn't Buffy's sister, but -- ready for this? -- the incarnation of a mystical key, hidden in our universe by monks trying to keep it from its owner, a deranged, demigoddess diva named Glory (the flame haired Clare Kramer). I think.
if he isn't sure, why is he even commenting? There were no specific point, just a generic sweeping statement of how cliches were used. Negative reviews are fine by me, just get more substance behind it.
by rocketdyke » Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:27 pm
just wondering.
michele
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willow: she's like, this cleavage-y slut bomb...
by Dazey » Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:29 pm
by tvsurfer » Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:53 pm
One thing did set off bells for me in Tara's speech to dawn, about not using magic to alter life and death.
TARA
This is different. Magic can't be
used to alter the natural order of things-
DAWN
All you do is mess with the natural
order of things! You make things
float and disappear and, and-
TARA
(interrupting)
But we don't mess with life and death.
TARA
Because witches can't be allowed to
alter the fabric of life that way, for
selfish reasons. We'd manipulate the
world until it came unglued.
Tara was directing those comments to a girl whose very life was magicly created!! Dawn's very presence upsets the natural order of things! So how can dawn relate to a world where magic is suppose to have rules and boundries, when she herself is breaking the rules by her very existence ?
[This message has been edited by tvsurfer (edited April 19, 2001).]
by Warduke » Thu Apr 19, 2001 4:18 pm
I just loved the way Willow was holding on to Tara during the whole burial scene, it was just so sweet. by Beautiful Tara's Girl » Thu Apr 19, 2001 4:22 pm
quote:
Originally posted by rocketdyke:
any thoughts about why tara is wearing that bright red leather jacket at the funeral, when everyone else is so subdued and wearing browns and black? maybe it doesnt *mean* anything, but looking at the screen caps just now, it struck me as odd. wouldnt you think about wearing something so obviously red to a funeral and then think, well maybe not...just wondering.
michele
It's not red! It's burnt orange! Burnt orange, damn you! I have the same coat! 
...and in my case, it's the only long coat I own...
...so there's an excuse right off the bat.
~BTG
(agog and aglow that she owns something that Tara does!)
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"What part of punching you in the face didn't you understand?" -Buffy
by calliope » Thu Apr 19, 2001 10:45 pm
by Wiccagrrl » Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:06 pm
I see the colors (white, red, black) as representing the life cycle. (This is pretty standard in traditional Wicca, btw, not that that has much to do with wicca in the Buffyverse, but those three colors represent the three faces of the goddess)
White- youth/the maiden (Buffy's childhood ending?)
Red- middle life/the mother. Nurturing. (Tara emotionally supporting Buffy, Dawn, Willow)
Black- Old age/the crone. Loss, grief (Dawn and Willow focusing on Joyce's death, dealing more directly with the grief. Besides them just being in the more traditional clothing for a western funeral.)
Like I said, I know I'm reading way too much into it, but hey, it worked for me, and it stopped me wondering why they were wearing those colors.
Or, they could just have been the only coats they had. (But in Tara's case, the shirt underneath the coat was red too)
[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited April 20, 2001).]
by BBOvenGuy » Sat Apr 21, 2001 11:49 pm
It was worth the wait, too. Lots of good things. My head is spinning with new W/T thoughts - a lot of stuff about how the relationship works, or how it should work, or how I think it works, or something... anyway, they're still swirling around a bit. I'll probably write a bunch of them up in a separate post later.
More once I've had time to ponder for a bit... 
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"To hope is to risk frustration. Therefore, make up your mind to risk frustration. Do not be one of those who, rather than risk failure, never attempts anything." - Thomas Merton
Remember the Official Kitten Board Mantra - "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
by Kabuki » Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:53 am
by Wiccagrrl » Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:06 am
by Roxton » Sun Apr 22, 2001 3:20 pm
If Willow had read this book, and knowing how bright and perceptive Dawn is, was she in a way giving tacit approval to Dawn's plan.
[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited April 22, 2001).]
by Wiccagrrl » Sun Apr 22, 2001 3:27 pm
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