by Hugin » Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:04 am
-len
by Dr.G » Wed Feb 07, 2001 12:15 pm
by xita » Wed Feb 07, 2001 1:10 pm
Duh, I just saw them! YEAH! Thanks nick! Expect wallpaper folks
[This message has been edited by xita (edited February 07, 2001).]
by xita » Wed Feb 07, 2001 1:29 pm
I don't agree about the finger lick. The finger lick is a sexual response and we have seen very little of this.
by tvsurfer » Wed Feb 07, 2001 1:29 pm
The dance was nice but they still haven't kissed on screen and half the eppies this season made me wonder if they hadn't decided to just be friends rather than lovers afterall.
words are nice but I need pictures to believe
so I'd rather the writers work on making me feel like they are really a couple head over heals in love with each other, before they start messing with them.
heck let them go mess with anya and xander they've been a couple a whole lot longer and there hasn't been much angst in that relationship just one liners about sex
by tvsurfer » Wed Feb 07, 2001 1:32 pm
by BBOvenGuy » Wed Feb 07, 2001 1:40 pm
****
Whew! I finally get enough of a break from quelling the rumor-insanity among my minions (see my rant on another thread) to comment on the episode.
And what did I think? It was GREAT! I've never seen Michelle Trachtenberg do anything really dramatic before, and she was fantastic. I like how Spike has bonded to her, too. Do you suppose he started calling her "niblet" while they were staying at his place?
Another thing I liked was that we once againn had Joss using the supernatural horror as a metaphor for a real horror. How many teenagers haven't had a moment where everything seemed like a sham and they didn't know who or what they really were? Dawn just has a more tangible source for her problems, that's all.
There were some good Willow/Buffy moments in this ep. In the beginning, Buffy was trying to rationalize her keeping Dawn's identity a secret as she has rationalized things in the past, and all it took was one look from Willow to make her realize she was wrong. There were good W/B moments at the birthday party, too, right up to the hug as Willow and Tara left.
And of course there were good W/T moments. A lot of them. Not as many as some would like, but until they rename the series The Witchy Twosome Hour I don't think there will ever be as many good W/T moments as some would like. And that's okay. There are enough good W/T moments now to demonstrate that the couple has the respect of the Buffy writers and directors, and that's a good thing. Plus Aly and Amber seem to be able to create good moments themselves out of thin air.
So, all in all it was a good time. I wonder what happens next week, though... the trailer was all about Buffy and Spike. Will the other couples get some Valentine goodness too?
by xita » Wed Feb 07, 2001 1:45 pm
BOb, I may have deleted your post. I was trying to delete your double post and i deleted the oldest one and came back and saw that both were gone. My policy in deleting is to delete the oldest post. So if you are deleting your double post delete the oldest one. That way we don't delete both of them accidentally. And that's advice for everyone.
I loved how Buffy didn't dismiss Willow. She actually stopped making excuses and agreed with Willow. This was very nice to see.
by calliope » Wed Feb 07, 2001 2:59 pm
by Kalita » Wed Feb 07, 2001 5:11 pm
Better prove I'm worth my new Floating Rose rank.
The Cut Scenes:
Let's talk Hollywood reality. Writing a script is an inexact process; you will generally get a pages-to-minutes ratio for a given writer (or team), but that's still just an average. To be on the safe side, EVERYONE over-writes by a page or two. If it's too long, fine, we can trim a shot or few. If it's too short, you're in trouble. You have to go back, weeks later in the process (remember, this is after most of the editing has been done that they'll know), and shoot a couple new scenes. If actors have changed hairstyles in the meantime, they'll have to use other characters and force things. They'll have to match costumes and set designs to an episode that wrapped over a month ago. This is annoying and costs time and money.
I think you can see why trimming non-plot-crucial scenes is the more logical approach. And, having seen the shooting script, the walk-in-the-woods bit is about as non-plot as scenes get in this one. I even say that as a W/T fan.
As for the knife? There's no excuse for that one.
On to other matters: I've been thinking a lot about the Ben/Glory stuff and I'm still trying to make a final decision. My gut decision, when I first saw it, was that yes, they're the one and the same entity. One displaces the other (when? is this regular or spontaneous?), and they need to change clothes (as we saw) and will not retain memories. Those who witness the transformation end up with cloudy memories (that's in the script, so we know that much).
However, it's possible that the two can merely swap places under certain circumstances. Ben may have found himself in Glory's room wearing a sinky number just as she appeared before Dawn. I'm not as certain of this, but you never know. (How Glory keeps a mini-wardrobe in Ben's locker is another matter entirely.)
Then, there's Ben's nature whatever the case above. Is he evil?
Case for Yes: He summoned the Queller demon and killed off those lunatics, and almost got Joyce killed. He cleans up after Glory, doesn't actively work to stop her.
Case for No: The demon put those guys out of their misery. He didn't expect it to escape the hospital. He may have a 'cosmic deal' (a la B5's Vorlons and Shadows) with his sister not to interfere directly in what she does.
I'm completely undecided at the moment on this one.
Then, finally, The Key. How does Dawn fit in the equation? Glory wants her to open the door to her dimension (I presume). Ben wants her to run and keep Glory from succeeding. The Knights of Hack-n-Slash want simply to destroy her.
But which is the right answer? If Dawn runs, will that solve anything? If she is destroyed, will that only make things worse? Can Dawn come out of this alive? As a normal girl?
I gotta say, Joss keeps me guessing... and I kinda like it that way.
------------------
Kalita
Maquis operative and fanfic sponge
"Like Tara. She and Willow are both witches. They do spells and stuff which is so much cooler than slaying. I told Mom one time I wish they'd teach me some of the things they do together, and she got really quiet and made me go upstairs. I guess her generation isn't cool with witchcraft."
-Dawn, "Real Me"
by eekiboo » Wed Feb 07, 2001 5:24 pm
quote:
Originally posted by newmoon07:
---you can see clearly see Tara's love through her immediate expression. The girl wears her emotions on her sleeve. Just in her voice, her eyes...you just KNOW that Willow IS her everything.
that IS so true! as often mentioned, Tara looks at Willow all the time, in a "i-love-u-you're-mine-i'll-do-anything-for-you" manner... plus she THINKS abt Willow all the time... even when she's with others like Buffy in Triangle she says: "Willow says things always happen for a reason," and of course all the WORRIED looks she makes when Willow is in danger or is hurt. now if we could have seen that *deleted* scene... that would have been nice but no sir, they want us to feel deprived of W/T loving moments. (which has been the 3rd time, if i'm not mistaken: deleted scenes too in 1) NMR then 2)Triangle. any more i missed?) how rude! so unfair! the nerve! freakin' bloody hell! ranting ends. pax.
by newmoon07 » Wed Feb 07, 2001 7:09 pm
by BBOvenGuy » Wed Feb 07, 2001 7:48 pm
by judy » Wed Feb 07, 2001 8:15 pm
quote:
Originally posted by tvsurfer:
regarding willow tara angst in their relationship. No thanks. we haven't even seen them hugging in front of the scoobies yet, even when we've had tara facing off with her dad or willow hurt.The dance was nice but they still haven't kissed on screen and half the eppies this season made me wonder if they hadn't decided to just be friends rather than lovers afterall.
words are nice but I need pictures to believe
so I'd rather the writers work on making me feel like they are really a couple head over heals in love with each other, before they start messing with them.
heck let them go mess with anya and xander they've been a couple a whole lot longer and there hasn't been much angst in that relationship just one liners about sex
tvsurfer, I appreciate where you're coming from. But I have to say that I find WIllow and Tara entirely believable as a couple even without the kissing and hugging. Of course I want a kiss and more physicality. I'm certainly not sending letters to Joss demanding an onscreen full-on fight whereas I have campaigned for a kiss.
But I also think defensive representations of same sex relationships are boring and stifling. (And I dislike corny sentimentality in any romantic relationship). Sweetness only takes me so far. So you're right to point out the need for a kiss. I don't think any non-homophobes would argue against it (OK probably somewhere in the world a lesbian or lesbian friendly person doesn't think they should ever kiss onscreen). As much as I want a kiss I also want angst and I think both are important in terms of creating and showing a fully fleshed romantic (same sex) relationship in all its complexity. The kiss ain't happening anytime soon. But there is a solid enough history behind them that could stand -- even benefit from -- some angst. I truly respect Joss and co. for being so sensitive and careful. But that can also breed staleness so I worry.
Alas, neither of us is getting what we want.
ANd watch me eat my words when something horrible happens between Willow and Tara and I wish for nothing but syrup.
***************
OK, I'm feeling guilty because this is a thread about last night's ep and I've sped off on another tangent. My apologies.
[This message has been edited by judy (edited February 07, 2001).]
by xita » Wed Feb 07, 2001 8:47 pm
Len, rewatching that scene I agree. Willow was clearly hit by the shockwave, Tara wasn't. I agree with you.
by Jon@han » Wed Feb 07, 2001 9:53 pm
Repeated gag- When Xander is tickling Dawn, she asks him if he got into the sugar again. Clearly, this is reminiscent of Buffy asking Willow if she was drinking coffee again. (Lie to Me, 2.7)
Exercise in Hopelessness- Dawn's homework is to write a letter to her future self. Since Dawn has no future, I expect we'll be reading this letter later on in the season. (a la Doyle's television commercial)
Metaphors Abound! - So, in season two we saw that slaying == gay (Buffy's mom has tried to march in the slayer pride parade), and in season four that witchcraft and spells == sex. Now we get to see some extended metaphors for The Key == adoption.
More Pain! I agree that things are going entirely too smoothly relationshipwise. There was a mild hiccup between W/T in Family, but other than that, they are kinda the model couple. I think it would be dreadfully ironic and wonderful if we had a scene where W. complained about Tara's rather clingy nature ("She's always so, so... there! Staring at me so adoringly! It makes me wanna scream!") That would be painfully funny.
Very oddball thoughts - Wouldn't it just be hilarious if all those alternate dimensions were different TV shows? Like, E.R. is the World without Shrimp. And W/T sent the troll to Charmed. I can definitely see Dawson's Creek being the Hell dimension that Glory rules over....
Little Miss Drama - Dawn with a knife. Yowza. Scary stuff. But in a good way, you know youknow?
Another set of Random thoughts - Was Giles making tea significant? Or just killing time? Glory's minions are called that and in caps) in the script, which I think is funny. Glory and the Minions, headlining tonight! What happened to Spikes box o' choc-lats? Spike stole a crystal from the Magic Box. Significant?
Ben the Evil Intern - is one hot Boyo! What a cutiepie! I also thought that Anya was looking pretty cute, too...
Fight Club - Nice to see the scoobies working togther to kick some bottom. We haven't seen a rumble like that for quite some time.
And to conclude:
We have a tie for the most interesting stage directions. Which one is cooler?
-Glory reaches for Dawn's head. Time for a cool, refreshing brain-suck.-
or
-Buffy pounds Glory like a hay thrasher set on puree.-
Gooood night everybody!
--
rev.Jon@han
[x] I caught the Tim the UNSPOILED stream of conscious virus!
by Corana » Thu Feb 08, 2001 5:25 am
This scene may have been cut for something other than time. If Joss and Co. had to fight the WB to get the girls shown in bed together (Family), then something as sexually overt as finger licking would probably be a fight as well.
Just a thought. . .
-c
by xita » Thu Feb 08, 2001 5:31 am
by eekiboo » Thu Feb 08, 2001 3:44 pm
quote:
INT. BUFFY'S LIVING ROOM - CONTINOUS - NIGHTBirthday presents are strewn across the coffee table, some weapons, some clothes, a few books…
Willow and Tara are at the coffee table, cutting Buffy's birthday cake with a sharp, gleaming knife. WILLOW LAUGHS, LICKS A BIT OF STRAY FROSTING FROM TARA'S FINGER.
i'm just imagining it and wondering what Tara's expression as Willow licks her finger... a naughty grin perhaps? which finger could it be? left or right hand? what abt Willow's expression? she's probably lookin' straight at Tara's eyes as if she's saying "i want you.." heh.heh.
------------------
Willow to Buffy: "we have to face it, you can't handle Tara being my girlfriend..." The Yoko Factor
by BlackLab » Thu Feb 08, 2001 5:42 pm
by Dr.G » Fri Feb 09, 2001 6:48 am
------------------
"Hello! Tarasexual now..."
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 09, 2001).]
by BBOvenGuy » Fri Feb 09, 2001 7:14 am
I've seen comments of people who think she's going to die or revert to her natural form or something by season's end, but I don't necessarily buy it. Dawn has her own unique qualities that she brings to the Scooby mix, and I don't necessarily see Joss wanting to give that up. Plus killing her off would go against the "building the family" theme of this season.
Here's an interesting question, though - suppose Dawn remains human, grows old and eventually dies. What happens then? Would she revert to her natural blob-of-energy state? Or would the door to Glory's demon dimension be closed forever? I wonder...
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited February 09, 2001).]
by eekiboo » Fri Feb 09, 2001 7:17 am
by Roxton » Fri Feb 09, 2001 7:36 am
[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited February 09, 2001).]
by tvsurfer » Fri Feb 09, 2001 8:35 am
When it comes to willow nothing tara has done has been stiff/mechanical/routine or
indifferent. If the back rub or finger lick got cut, I'd say it was because it came off to "hot" for the kiddie audience that the WB is constantly trying for.
by BBOvenGuy » Fri Feb 09, 2001 10:53 am
by tvsurfer » Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:13 pm
by xita » Fri Feb 09, 2001 1:05 pm
by tvsurfer » Fri Feb 09, 2001 2:44 pm
thanks for the info xita. I have to wonder what JW was thinking then.
by Roxton » Fri Feb 09, 2001 4:25 pm
quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
The monk in No Place Like Home said that Dawn was "completely human,"
Although the monk said that Dawn was "completely human," her core energy still has to exist as a basic element within her. Given that the key has existed for thousands of years this leaves two alternatives. Dawn can grow old and die at which time she reverts back to her original state, or she can reach physical maturity at which time her core being prevents any cellular degeneration from taking place, in effect stopping the aging process.
Regardless it's an interesting discussion.
[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited February 09, 2001).]
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