General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 9

[Kendahl897]

Joss is crazy about Willow and Tara , as well as being very proud of what he's been able to create over the past 3 years. He's already said that he has no plans to send Tara anywhere and he loves the chemistry that Aly and Amber have created. Trust that everything will be okay in the end. Do you really think he'd want to have to face his lesbians friends after having destroyed one of the best relationships on Tv, aside from being the only lesbian relationship on TV.

[GODisTigger]

Well Joss wouldn't have to worry about facing his lesbian friends after this because if everything stays this way he probably won't have any left.

D

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They have Dial-A-Prayer for atheists now. You call up but nobody answers.

[AutumnT]

Gotta love our mods. Troll be gone just like that. I guess little Suzie will have to get over it.

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Autumn

I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.

[Rally]

Trolls? Oh...that's what that smell was.

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No, please. I mean, tell me if I said something wrong otherwise I know I'll say it again. Probably often and in public.

[Oz_Island]

quote:

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Originally posted by Web Warlock:

I am not coming from this position, merely an outsider, but if EVERY SINGLE portayal of people like you were punished because they DARED love someone else, how would you feel?

---

To be honest, I don't know why it should effect anyone permanently. I mean, as was stated in Scream, if you have sex in a horror movie, you have to die. It was rule number one I believe. Just because it happened in a movie doesn't mean that every time I have sex, I'm going to expect to meet a horrible death. Why? Because I know it's a movie. The same with a TV show. And I know many people vest a lot of emotion into some TV series, and I know Buffy is one of them. I know I've invested more emotion into this series than any other series. But it's still a TV show, and regardless of how it or any movie protrays gays or lesbians shouldn't effect a person's choices. I realize that it probably does, but it shouldn't.

The fact that so many people do invest so much of their emotions into the show might be a reason why they would kill Tara. I mean, how many of you are going to cry their eyes dry if she is killed. Even knowing before hand (if the rumors are true) I know for a fact that I sill will. Why? Because I have invested emotions into her character as I have with all the character's in "Buffyverse", even Spike (although I still dislike him the most). Even though I know it's a TV show, Tara's death will have an impact on me, but I won't go all depressed for an extended period of time because of it.

And honestly, if a movie can effect an individual to the point of adversely affecting his/her relationship with the person he/she loves you would have to question if that individual truly loves his/her partner.

I guess my point is that even though the gay and lesbian cliche exists, it should in no way, and again I admit that it probably does, effect an individual's preception of those people or of theirself if they happen to be gay or lesbian.

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"I laugh in the face of danger. And then I hide until it goes away." - Xander

"I have a plan. We wait, and Buffy saves us." - Xander

"What's Xander's number? Oh, ya 1-800-I'm-dating-a-skanky-ho." - Willowquote:

[Warduke]

Rally, looks like that smell is back.

[susiebuff]

I wasn't being a troll, I was just stating my opinion. Tara's character has really grown on me this year. I would've like to have seen where her character could have gone. Especially after her new found confidence.
I'm just saying that Joss and the writers aren't killing her deliberately because she is gay.

[Bobo's Mom]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wiccagrrl:

Gets people talking, gets people thinking. If the storyline doesn't cave into the cliche, but does indeed turn it on its head, hey...may not be a bad thing, y'know?

[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited March 15, 2002).]

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I think you hit the nail on the head. After all, isn't this what the show has done from day one. The blond is not eaten by the monster. The beast can have a soul. The geek can be strong, noble, and cool.

If ME does use the W/T story line to address the stereotype, and turn it on it's head, as they have done in the past with so many stereotypes, I will bow to them, and give thanks. So many of the stories that individuals in these pages have shared have spoken about how Willow and Tara, and the story line has helped them come out to friends and family, or at least made that issue a little easier for them. What if ME are raising the bar higher?

Edited because I'm sleepy.
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TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!
ANYA: With yoga?
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BUFFYBOT: That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!

[This message has been edited by Bobo's Mom (edited March 16, 2002).]quote:

[Rally]

*Hands the bottle of Air Freshner around the spoiler board.
*Sprays profusely in the general direction of of the yellow brick road.

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No, please. I mean, tell me if I said something wrong otherwise I know I'll say it again. Probably often and in public.

[xita]

Susie No that is not what you said. You are an unregistered person coming in here telling us to get over it. It wasn't just stating your opinion, it was telling us how we should feel and that is not going to fly. And that is the last I will say about that to you. Take that as a promise of further action.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 16, 2002).]

[The Rose]

Go Mods, Go Mods, Go Mods!!!!

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Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[judy]

Susiebuff darling, I think coming into a messageboard with a very clearly stated purpose (being for W/T shippers) and telling members of the board to get over it is not exactly a shining example of politeness, respect, or tact, is it?

And may I respectfully suggest to the mods that this board is changed so that only registered users can post??? I don't know if that's technically difficult and I KNOW it won't solve all the problems, but I have a strong feeling that it may discourage some hit and runs. The coming weeks will be hard enough as is.

Oz_Island, did you know that Joss Whedon has stated that a reason he created "Buffy" was to turn the stereotype of the blond helpless girl who gets killed in a dark alley in horror movies on its head?? This statement in and of itself shows the power of media and how you can harness it to tell a really good story without resorting to sexism or homophobia. Telling a good, rich, complicated story and not relying on tired HISTORICAL cliches of traditionally marginalized and denigrated groups of human beings are not mutually exclusive as many fans seem to believe. (oh my god, how boring to give a crap about LESBIAN cliches and stereotypes... it will get in the way of DRAMA!)

[This message has been edited by judy (edited March 16, 2002).]

[GODisTigger]

:: sniff sniff ::

Eww.

:: opens a window ::

D

[Lisa of Nine]

quote:

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Originally posted by Oz_Island:

And honestly, if a movie can effect an individual to the point of adversely affecting his/her relationship with the person he/she loves you would have to question if that individual truly loves his/her partner.

I guess my point is that even though the gay and lesbian cliché exists, it should in no way, and again I admit that it probably does, effect an individual's perception of those people or of their self if they happen to be gay or lesbian.

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Okay, I COULD go into the long history of the effects of media on self-image. I could list the SCORES of studies done that show that images in media have adversely effected gays (shown that they cannot ever be happy...a complete crock); African American males (Shown that they can only be criminals, or that they abandon their women... also a complete crock)... but why?

You obviously are invested in being right. You obviously are invested in telling us silly lesbians that we shouldn't let a TV show effect us.

Perhaps it is because you are not capable of comprehending the lasting effects of prolonged exposure to negative images in media. Perhaps you are not willing to admit that a life of abuse in the media could possibly effect one's self-image.

I suppose victims of child abuse are just being naive and immature for letting past events effect their ability to bond as adults. Yeah, THAT makes sense. *note the sarcasm*

Lisa
*Bitter? You bet my crazy, evil, dead lesbian ass I am*quote:

[Hugin]

Oz_Island, by your logic no depiction of any group in TV or a movie could be offensive or dangerous, because it's make believe. Go ahead and make all the black folks criminals or drug addicts. Make all the latino folks drug dealers. Make all the women dependent on men and subservient to them. And kill all the gays. Who cares, it's just TV, no one should be affected by it. Oz_Island, a few posts ago you admitted you weren't even aware of the well documented way in which gays and lesbians have been treated in media history.

Here's something else you seem to be ignorant of: The way people are depicted in the media affect they way viewers percieve those people. If you don't think the images we grow up with affect our assumptions and attitudes you're fooling yourself, many many people think TV and movies reflect reality in ways they absolutely do not, in the way science works, in the way politics work, in the way law enforcement works, in the way cars work, in the way minorities behave, it goes on and on.
To say that it doesn't matter how folks are depicted, that no one is affected by it is either dangerously naiive on your part, or amazingly obtuse. There's serious scholarly work produced about this, as it relates to an endless range of subjects, not just the depictions of gays and lesbians. You're simply very incorrect.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited March 16, 2002).]

[Oz_Island]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa of Nine:
Okay, I COULD go into the long history of the effects of media on self-image. I could list the SCORES of studies done that show that images in media have adversely effected gays (shown that they cannot ever be happy...a complete crock); African American males (Shown that they can only be criminals, or that they abandon their women... also a complete crock)... but why?

You obviously are invested in being right. You obviously are invested in telling us silly lesbians that we shouldn't let a TV show effect us.

Perhaps it is because you are not capable of comprehending the lasting effects of prolonged exposure to negative images in media. Perhaps you are not willing to admit that a life of abuse in the media could possibly effect one's self-image.

I suppose victims of child abuse are just being naive and immature for letting past events effect their ability to bond as adults. Yeah, THAT makes sense. *note the sarcasm*

Lisa
*Bitter? You bet my crazy, evil, dead lesbian ass I am*

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I'm sorry Lisa, but Child Abuse is something that is real...someone dying on a TV show is not...they are two totally different things, and to compare them is down right silly. Comparing something occurs in real life to something that happens in a movie or a TV show is ludicrous.

And again, I admitted that what is protrayed on TV (as is fictional television, not the news and such) does adversely effect an individual...what I am saying is that it shouldn't. To allow something that is not real to affect your judgement and your life...I don't know, to me it seems silly to allow such a thing to happen.

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"I laugh in the face of danger. And then I hide until it goes away." - Xander

"I have a plan. We wait, and Buffy saves us." - Xander

"What's Xander's number? Oh, ya 1-800-I'm-dating-a-skanky-ho." - Willow

"The hardest thing in the world is to live in it" - Buffyquote:

[maudmac]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wiccagrrl:
Gets people talking, gets people thinking. If the storyline doesn't cave into the cliche, but does indeed turn it on its head, hey...may not be a bad thing, y'know?

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I can only guess at what ME have planned or what their intentions are, but this makes total sense to me. I'm seeing it happen right now. (But why, oh why, do people who are not W/T shippers even come to a W/T shipper board?)

Not only are we obviously debating the issue of Tara's murder and Willow's descent into BigBadness, but we're seeing the big picture. We're talking about how Tara and Willow, as a couple and individually, fit into the show. We're interacting. Thinking. We're also discussing their larger role in pop culture and the ramifications of their relationship (and its possible demise) to society as a whole.

Kittens aren't the only ones discussing these things. I know some of you don't frequent other boards, but, trust me, everyone's talking about it.

Furthermore, also consider what the other shippers are dealing with. Xanya fans are as distraught as we are, and endlessly debating issues like love, maturity, sacrifice, betrayal, redemption, etc.

The Spuffy fans are flipping out about as bad as we are. Every new tiny little bit of spoilage/speculation that comes down the pike is dissected. Buffy and Spike have/had an extremely complex relationship that lends itself well to discussing many larger issues.

If any good comes of this ep 19-20 trainwreck, it might be that it will get the show's viewers to talk less about the minutiae of the show (Willow's hair, Tara's butt, Spike's cheekbones, etc.) and more about the really huge issues that those eps will bring to the fore. Cliche's, the nature of evil, vengeance vs. justice, redemption, etc. It makes us part of the show, active rather than passive.

Just for the record, I love discussing the minutiae, too. But hasn't Joss said that he wants BTVS fans to be actively engaged and using their noggins? Well, the Trainwreck absolutely guarantees that that's what we'll be doing.

(OMG, I think I made this sound a little bit like an argument against the Reset. Of course, there has to be a reset, and I don't give a damn how stupid/lame/cheesy/overused it is if it brings Tara back, but it's gonna have to be done in such a way that the Scoobs learn and grow from what's happened.)quote:

[Rally]

Oz, sorry for my clever and confusing posts earlier...let me make things clear. You are a TROLL and your obvious bias against W/T is not welcome here.
No one needs you telling them how they should or should not feel. So stop trying to get the last word in, because the sand is running out on you very quickly.

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No, please. I mean, tell me if I said something wrong otherwise I know I'll say it again. Probably often and in public.

[tommo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Oz_Island:
And again, I admitted that what is protrayed on TV (as is fictional television, not the news and such) does adversely effect an individual...what I am saying is that it shouldn't. To allow something that is not real to affect your judgement and your life...I don't know, to me it seems silly to allow such a thing to happen.

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Perhaps it shouldn't, but it does.

Perhaps it seems silly, but you know what? I don't care. I don't friggin' care. I've become involved in something special. And honestly, nobody is going to take that away from me, the laughs, the chats, the community here. It's so much more than just a tv show.

I think maybe you'd better reconsider telling us all to "get over it" as I personally consider that a real affront to my intelligence.

And I'm really clever. Ask anyone.

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You know I've been through hell...Joss can't you see, there'll be nothing left of me. You made me believe...quote:

[judy]

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*

[BBOvenGuy]

quote:

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Originally posted by Oz_Island:
To allow something that is not real to affect your judgement and your life...I don't know, to me it seems silly to allow such a thing to happen.

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I suppose that's what Harriet Beecher Stowe should have said when people credited Uncle Tom's Cabin for its role in starting the Civil War.

What you're saying here is absurd. Of course people are affected by fictional stories. That's usually why writers write them. Fiction allows people to look at societal, emotional, political... human issues in a way that they couldn't do if they restricted themselves to cold hard reality alone.

Affecting people is the name of the game, and it always has been. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited March 16, 2002).]quote:

[MoMack]

Oz - She is rather clever...in fact, so are most of the folks on this board. I'd suggest keeping your mouth shut before you find you're chewing on more than just your own shoe-leather.

Consider it a charitable piece of advice.

[This message has been edited by MoMack (edited March 16, 2002).]

[maudmac]

*raises hand tentatively*

Bitterness...um...is kinda sexy. Some people just need a smackdown. And Lisa, Ruth, Xita? Y'all are the ones to do it. I feel safe and protected.

*fervently hopes the bitter eyes are never upon her*

[yaya]

ive listened to the loveline thing three times now trying to get a feeling for amber's tone of voice when shes talking about buffy....i have to say, if shes left the show shes putting on the best poker face...i also just bought the U.S. buffy mag trying to assess her tone there...i just keep going back to when she laughed when asked about the BSD...although that could just be part of the poker face routine..btw if anyone has the mag do u know which ep the pic on the top of page 32 is from?...this is so insane...i just wish we knew the end of the season one way or another...even if it is bad news :'(, at least we will finally know for sure

[aynaia]

I understand how you feel about unregistered people. Yes I am unregistered although I may change that very soon, however I don't believe in going to a board that is dedicated to a certain theme & bashing them or their theme, it's rude, selfish, & childish. That said I want to try to offer a little hope cause I am a huge fan of W/T as well as the people who portray them so beautifully each week.

I know this sounds strange with all of the confirmations about Tara being the BSD but I have had this whole theory based on forshadowing in TR & part of it is coming out to be right on the money according to the latest spoilers. That said.....
I will take the part that refers only to the BSD & hopefully it will make some sense. The grouping in TR seemed to be very important, it was in the foreshadowing of Anya & Spike sex in the Magic Box being recorded, it was actually quite obvious once the spoilers started coming out about Anya.
Group # 1- Buffy & Spike
Group # 2- Willow, Tara, Xander, & Dawn
Group # 3- Anya & Giles
Now I hope I can make this make sense without going into the whole thing but basically it boils down to the Anya/Giles pairing was important because Giles was leaving, now if they are reflecting each other then we can assume that it would also mean Anya is leaving. Also just for a little extra clue in the halloween ep Anya is dressed as a "Charlies Angel" obvious angel=death parallel there!
Now take into account that TR forshadowed practically the whole end of the season. I will list what it did forshadow but not the specifics unless you really want me too. The specifics are listed in my post at fan forum B/S thread under this same name if you are curious.
1- Anya going vengeance demon
2- Xander leaving Anya
3- Spike & Anya sex at Magic Box
4- Spike & Anya secretly recorded in the act
5- Spike chip removal
6- Spike & Buffy starting a second more healthy relationship
7- Buffy's emotional separation from family & friends
8- Willow's return to magic
That's just what I could pick out there could be even more & probably is. I am trusting the story here, not what the spoilers would appear to be telling us or the writers. Trust in what they have so obviously shown us each week, not what we are hearing. You know the old adage "Don't tell me, Show me" go with that & have faith! Cause I believe that they have shown us W/T is pure & destined to be forever.

[Lothar]

Im sorry, I am not a registered poster but I do lurk here on occasion. I am a fan af Amber Benson and do enjoy what Joss and Co have done with the W/T relationship.

It does grieve me to hear these spoiler about the demise of Tara. However, I have learned to not believe anything until you see it, and even then take it only with a grain of salt.

I did want to ask a question to Willowicous and I hope you read this. You stated this

Just for a bit of levity, I was just at the UPN Bronze and there is a thread from one of the more annoying, homophic, actively Kitten and W/T-hating posters asking in all seriousness...

"Who is Tito and why should Xander be with him?"

It is followed by a bunch of "I was wondering that, too!" posts.

I am a regular poster at the UPN and Beta Bronze, more so at the UPN. I must of missed those comments or scrolled overthem. But you made reference that this was a regular poster. Do you remember the name of this poster? I would like to know so I can keep an eye on them to make sure rude they keep from making rude comments.

Thanks for your help

Lothar

[mariacomet]

I think the question of how lesbians have been potrayed in film and television is a very valuable one and I don't want to minimize that.

But I can't bring myself to believe that Josh and Marti are homophobes. And right now, I am not at a place mentally where I can analyze all the implications about how postive the interactions between these two characters has been for society as a whole or for hollywood.

The thing is...I let myself get attached. I let myself get attached partly because I believed that Joss knew the sterotypes and would never let them run rampid on his show. I believed his interviews where he stated that Amber was not going anywhere. I believed him and I believed in him. And if Tara stays dead the fact remains that he lied. I know he plans his moves a year or more in advance. So then, was he purposely building a false hope? Because if he was for the sake of ratings, that seems cruel.

I know a lot of people are saying to take comfort in what we have been given. And to an extent, I agree. But all I can think is - there are a million ways to give a character the freedom to leave a show. And beyond that, a million ways for a character to die.

Oz left. Angel left. Faith left. Wesley left. Giles left. Riley left.

But Tara has to die??

And die pointlessly at that.

If Joss has known what he is going to do this season for a long time, why not give us W/T lovemaking at the beginning of the season instead of in the same that they kill Tara?

I'm sitting here kind of lost in my thoughts. I don't know what Joss and ME will do. I still want to believe in him and the show. And yes, a major character going bad is this big dramatic twist that noone has ever done.

But then...where is the redemption? Where is the hope?

I'm finding it really hard to find the hope.

[Wiccagrrl]

quote:

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Originally posted by aynaia:
I am trusting the story here, not what the spoilers would appear to be telling us or the writers. Trust in what they have so obviously shown us each week, not what we are hearing. You know the old adage "Don't tell me, Show me" go with that & have faith! Cause I believe that they have shown us W/T is pure & destined to be forever.

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Great thoughts. And I agree, TR was big in the foreshadowing department. And all season we've had evidence that W/T were meant to be together and would "always find each other". So, I'm holding out for things to get better (after getting really, really bad of course.)

Now, see...unregistered posters with coherent and non-insulting thoughts like yours, aynaia? Those I don't think most of us have *any* problem with Although feel free to register, we can be a friendly bunch, honestly.

quote:

[GiftofAmber]

The hope is in the cheese....I just rewatched Restless. The guy with the cheese...nothing has been done to this point with cheese...maybe it is a reference to a cheesy reset??

[judy]

Oh dear... sorry if I made the unregistered posters who are respectful feel badly with my suggestion that this board only allow registered posts. I am well aware that there are people who don't register because you don't feel like it or you see a post and want to respond in a thoughtful way w/o necessarily becoming a member... etc. There are many different valid reasons. But I know that it's easier for a troll or homophobe to post something nasty if they don't have to go through registering. Since we are entering a tense period (hell, we're in one!) I wanted something that could deter some trolls and homophobes. But fear not, I am not a mod and have little power.