by Popje » Fri Mar 15, 2002 7:42 pm
by Suspect » Fri Mar 15, 2002 7:52 pm
by Kendahl897 » Fri Mar 15, 2002 7:53 pm
by Ghostwriter » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:02 pm
by with catlike tread » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:04 pm
"an idea so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel". Actually it isnt all that subtle, but its the kind of question that might get answered without ulterior motives being suspected. Unless AB reads this board and then I have spoiled the chance of all the other people who have thought of this and kept it to themselves.
(edited because you would think as a lawyer I could spell 'weasel')
[This message has been edited by with catlike tread (edited March 15, 2002).]
by Oz_Island » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:05 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Eric tr:
Ok, that's perfect then. Here's my idea.I know that Amber can't discuss anything really about upcoming episodes for fear of the wrath of Joss. She isn't allowed to tell if Tara comes back to life or not.
Another thing we know about Amber is that she just filmed the scene where Willow finds Tara's body and it was supposed to be her last filming of the week (and possibly the season).
I was wondering if someone who was going to the convention could ask Amber how long she's been away from filming Buffy. If her answer indicates that she's done some additional filming since this past Monday, then that might be a very good sign.
[This message has been edited by Eric tr (edited March 15, 2002).]
I'm sorry, but isn't this statement like saying that it was heterophobic(don't know if this is a word, but) when Angel became evil again after he and Buffy had sex.
------------------
"I laugh in the face of danger. And then I hide until it goes away." - Xander
"I have a plan. We wait, and Buffy saves us." - Xander
"What's Xander's number? Oh, ya 1-800-I'm-dating-a-skanky-ho." - Willow
quote:by Wiccagrrl » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:08 pm
by Eric tr » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:15 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I'm sorry, but isn't this statement like saying that it was heterophobic(don't know if this is a word, but) when Angel became evil again after he and Buffy had sex.
I'm sorry, but huh? What statement are you refering to? All I was talking about was a way to figure out if Tara is going to film any additional episodes.
EDITED TO ADD: Oops, sorry. I was being quite dense there. As for you're statement, I'd have to agree with Xita, Web Warlock, and BBOvenGuy in their below posts.
[This message has been edited by Eric tr (edited March 15, 2002).]
quote:by xita » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:16 pm
Also, it shows a profound misunderstanding of the word and the social implication of it. It is because there has been very little represantations of lesbians that the ones that are out there make profound deep impression. I don't think you've hung out on the board. W/T have affected people in deep personal ways. Why? There is no other and there has never been before a long term lesbian relationship on network TV. Angel/Buffy? Tons, a dime a dozen.
So you have this unique relationship helping young women and men to come out to be who they are and confront the harsh reality of life for homosexuals because they provided hope and an example. We have had countless coming out threads here that have proved that exact point. Teens can look to them and see what the future can hold for them. Now they'll be gone, in the worst imaginable cliche. You may not know it but movies and shows have historically shown homosexuals dying and being evil (killers, psychopaths). And no, not because of story telling, but because the creators had an agenda of showing that the lifestyle could lead to no good.
So here is the message again. And I don't care how much they hide behind the "we didn't mean for them to be role models" mask, they are. They simply are. I wish I had the luxury as a teacher to say my actions did not influence the children I teach. They do and whether I like it or not I have to take that into consideration in my public life.
So now, w/t will be destroyed and where can people turn to see a better reflection of themselves? NOWHERE! NOWHERE! And that is the difference between w/t and b/a.
The worst part is that the writers know this, they are aware of the cliche. So personally, I can't believe that will be it. I have to believe that they will be better than that and show a different story, something new, something for a new millenium. That is Joss' way. Not this crap.
by BBOvenGuy » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:25 pm
But...
Do I think the scenario they're giving us looks homophobic? You bet it does. Even if it's not meant to be that way (and I can give you a dozen examples of how it's not meant to be that way), you still end up with one dead lesbian and one evil lesbian on your TV screen.
And the thing is, Joss & Marti did it on purpose.
If they needed to have Tara be dead, they didn't have to do it right after she and Willow had had sex. They could have done it before the sex, as they did with Giles and Jenny. They could have done it completely apart from the sex. Do you think Willow would go any less ballistic if Tara was shot while waiting for a bus? I don't think so.
And surely Joss & Marti know what it looks like. Joss majored in feminist film theory! He's got to know what kind of impression this turn of events is going to leave. So why is he doing it? That's the great unanswered question.
There has to be a good reason, and that reason has to come in Episodes 21 and 22. We just need to keep looking for it.
by Web Warlock » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:27 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I'm sorry, but isn't this statement like saying that it was heterophobic(don't know if this is a word, but) when Angel became evil again after he and Buffy had sex.
No. Here is why.
Angel began as evil, he always was, but he was later given a soul. Now fast forward to Buffy's time, Angel turns back to the evil SOB he always was. The key point. Willow was never evil.
Look at the metaphor here as well. Joss has spelled this out so many times that people should be able to do it by rote. Ready.
"Angel turning evil is a metaphor for the guy you sleep with and then turns into a jerk." Does this happen in real life? Of course. Do jerks fell slighted about it? No.
Now let's look at Willow and Tara.
Willow and Tara are in Love (purposeful capitalization) so what happens when they get together in what the script says "pure love" (or something)? Tara is viscously murdered. With a gun no less. (please, no Second Amendment debates here. The gun in this case symbolizes the lazy way to power, something the nerds have stood for all year. Not to mention the phallic connotations.) Her lover turns to evil. Now personally I justify Willow’s rage. If someone murdered the ones I loved then I wouldn’t care what lengths or depths I would have to go to seek vengeance. With Tara dead, Willow’s life is also over.
Here is the part that has everyone enraged. Tara does not have to die.
Also by killing Tara, Joss and ME fall into the “gays and lesbians must be punished cliché”. The fact that they said they would never do that makes this needless pain and suffering compounded with hypocrisy.
EVEN if there is a “reset” by the end of the season, the fact is that it was still on the screen. We had to sit through the hypocrisy that they claimed they could never stoop to. We had to watch one of the oldest clichés in Hollywood to further a plot by people who claimed they were above that.
Plus don’t get your hopes up for “DarkWillow” as Season 7s big bad. It wont happen. Aly is “BtVS” second big name star, you don’t turn your formerly loveable star into an evil killing machine, ratings would plummet. Again, can’t compare to Angel because Angel always was evil. Goodness was something new to him. Plus it has been pointed out in “As You Were” that the workers of the Dark Mojo have an expiry date. Willow will burn herself out before the end of Season 6. That is also part of the reset.
Granted. Joss and ME very well could pull a big ole rabbit out of their hats and surprise us all. I happens every season. I am spoiled to hell and back and I still get surprised.
While I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, their creditability is on very shaky ground with me. They had better wow me.
Warlock
------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
"And remember, if you hurt her, I will beat you to death with a shovel.
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend." - Willow.
by Dave V » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:33 pm
Unless I have totally misread Joss over the last 6 years, this is NOT how the season will end. If it does, I am on board with Web Warlock - ME will have proven themselves to be hypocrites.
Bring on the spoilers for eps 21 and 22!
[This message has been edited by Dave V (edited March 15, 2002).]
by Wiccagrrl » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:33 pm
by The Rose » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:34 pm
------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.
Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!
[This message has been edited by The Rose (edited March 15, 2002).]
by Oz_Island » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:43 pm
------------------
"I laugh in the face of danger. And then I hide until it goes away." - Xander
"I have a plan. We wait, and Buffy saves us." - Xander
"What's Xander's number? Oh, ya 1-800-I'm-dating-a-skanky-ho." - Willow
by Starfuct » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:44 pm
------------------
Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's morefull of weeping than you
can understand.
The Stolen Child
~W. B. YEATS
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Neither am I. That's why I take the word of people who are more familiar with the subject than I am.
The Buffy writers all know it, too. There are interviews with several of them where they talk about it. Many of them are quoted on the various spoiler threads we've had in the past week.
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Yeah, well that's pretty obvious.
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Exactly. You aren't. We are.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
It has already been suggested a billion times within this thread that people take a look at The Celluloid Closet for a very extensive, compelling and interesting look at the way gays and lesbians have been portrayed in film. There is a veeerrryy loooonnngg and infamous history of dead and crazy gay people in cinema. It is FACT.
As for Oz and Willow. Well, no that wouldn't be a lesbian cliche seeing how they would be a heterosexual couple. Straight couples don't have a veeeerrrryy loooooonngg and infamous history of turning up dead or crazy the moment they succumb to "sins of the flesh."
It is the CONTEXT. Lesbians have sex=Lesbians immediately die or go on murderous rampage. They could have killed Tara anywhere at any time. They are going to do it right after sex and in the bedroom. CLICHE!!!
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 15, 2002).]
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
quote:
2) She gets back together with Willow
after having a fairly short emotional
conversation about love/trust.
And since given the spoilers for 18 I'm fairly sure that does not happen in that episode we'll see if it happens before the hot monkey love in 19.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
IP: Logged
As for the cliché, others have mentioned books to read. Oz-Island, start by looking at films like The Children's Hour (1961). This movie was based on a play from the 1930's. Other such movies have been mentioned in this thread. Man, this theme's old, and it's tired.
[This message has been edited by Dave V (edited March 15, 2002).]
IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Neither am I. That's why I take the word of people who are more familiar with the subject than I am.
The Buffy writers all know it, too. There are interviews with several of them where they talk about it. Many of them are quoted on the various spoiler threads we've had in the past week.
IP: Logged
posted March 15, 2002 22:45quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Neither am I. That's why I take the word of people who are more familiar with the subject than I am.
The Buffy writers all know it, too. There are interviews with several of them where they talk about it. Many of them are quoted on the various spoiler threads we've had in the past week.
quote:IP: LoggedxitaMs. Moderator IP: Logged
posted March 15, 2002 22:47 Oz_Island, then may I suggest you read up on it before you comment on it. A good book to read is The Celluloid Closet, it is also a movie but the books way better. This may help to further a conversation about this subject. IP: LoggedWardukeStrong like an Amazon quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Yeah, well that's pretty obvious.
IP: Logged
posted March 15, 2002 22:48quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Yeah, well that's pretty obvious.
quote:IP: LoggedAutumnTSassy Eggs quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Exactly. You aren't. We are.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
IP: Logged
posted March 15, 2002 22:49quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Exactly. You aren't. We are.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
quote:IP: LoggedKendahl897Cool Monster Fighter IP: Logged
posted March 15, 2002 22:51 I think that one thing that Joss IS showing us is that sometimes the most evil people can be the ones you least expect. I'm referring of course to Warren. For seasons this show has shown the big bads to be vampires, demons and Gods. When the trio first came on the air, how many people, like me, thought they were kind of funny. I mean arguing over James Bond, the Star -Wars horn, the action figure cabinet, etc.C'mon, these guys are harmless, right? But as the season has progressed, we've seen them become more and more sinister (specially Warren). Near rape, trying to kill Buffy, killing Katrina and so on. And now Warren is going to kill Tara, with a gun no less. How lame, right? But what other kind of weapon would you expect a common criminal like Warren to use. He has no mystical powers, etc. He's just like any killer you turn on the TV and see on the local news. I guess what I'm trying to say is that one of the things I think Joss is trying to show us is that EVIL exists in all forms. It has already been suggested a billion times within this thread that people take a look at The Celluloid Closet for a very extensive, compelling and interesting look at the way gays and lesbians have been portrayed in film. There is a veeerrryy loooonnngg and infamous history of dead and crazy gay people in cinema. It is FACT.
As for Oz and Willow. Well, no that wouldn't be a lesbian cliche seeing how they would be a heterosexual couple. Straight couples don't have a veeeerrrryy loooooonngg and infamous history of turning up dead or crazy the moment they succumb to "sins of the flesh."
It is the CONTEXT. Lesbians have sex=Lesbians immediately die or go on murderous rampage. They could have killed Tara anywhere at any time. They are going to do it right after sex and in the bedroom. CLICHE!!!
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 15, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 15, 2002 22:54 Starts to bang head against the wall.It has already been suggested a billion times within this thread that people take a look at The Celluloid Closet for a very extensive, compelling and interesting look at the way gays and lesbians have been portrayed in film. There is a veeerrryy loooonnngg and infamous history of dead and crazy gay people in cinema. It is FACT.
As for Oz and Willow. Well, no that wouldn't be a lesbian cliche seeing how they would be a heterosexual couple. Straight couples don't have a veeeerrrryy loooooonngg and infamous history of turning up dead or crazy the moment they succumb to "sins of the flesh."
It is the CONTEXT. Lesbians have sex=Lesbians immediately die or go on murderous rampage. They could have killed Tara anywhere at any time. They are going to do it right after sex and in the bedroom. CLICHE!!!
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 15, 2002).]
IP: LoggedWiccagrrlGay Now! IP: Logged
posted March 15, 2002 22:57 Gods, Kendah, I hope you're right. I want to be cheering as the season ends. I wanna say once again "I trust Joss. And he hasn't let me down yet." I guess, for me, a lot will depend on how permanent Tara's death is, and if Willow ends up as a pretty much lost cause. If that's how it plays out, I will feel like my trust has been misplaced. If that's not the destination, then I will likely end up seeing the ride as worth it. We'll see. IP: LoggedAutumnTSassy Eggs quote:
2) She gets back together with Willow
after having a fairly short emotional
conversation about love/trust.
And since given the spoilers for 18 I'm fairly sure that does not happen in that episode we'll see if it happens before the hot monkey love in 19.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
IP: Logged
posted March 15, 2002 22:57 Since we now have new information it will be pretty easy to tell by episode 19 whether our friend Ed the Spoiler knows of what he speaks. In his first post he said this:quote:
2) She gets back together with Willow
after having a fairly short emotional
conversation about love/trust.
And since given the spoilers for 18 I'm fairly sure that does not happen in that episode we'll see if it happens before the hot monkey love in 19.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
quote:IP: LoggedDave VCool Monster Fighter As for the cliché, others have mentioned books to read. Oz-Island, start by looking at films like The Children's Hour (1961). This movie was based on a play from the 1930's. Other such movies have been mentioned in this thread. Man, this theme's old, and it's tired.
[This message has been edited by Dave V (edited March 15, 2002).]
IP: Logged
posted March 15, 2002 22:59 Hoorah for The Rose. One of the chapters of our still-born Kitten Board book also called Willow and Tara the most romantic couple on television. I still believe this to be true. In fact, I think I'll go back to the old hard drive and read it again now.As for the cliché, others have mentioned books to read. Oz-Island, start by looking at films like The Children's Hour (1961). This movie was based on a play from the 1930's. Other such movies have been mentioned in this thread. Man, this theme's old, and it's tired.
[This message has been edited by Dave V (edited March 15, 2002).]
by BBOvenGuy » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:45 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Neither am I. That's why I take the word of people who are more familiar with the subject than I am.
The Buffy writers all know it, too. There are interviews with several of them where they talk about it. Many of them are quoted on the various spoiler threads we've had in the past week.
quote:by xita » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:47 pm
by Warduke » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:48 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Yeah, well that's pretty obvious.
quote:by AutumnT » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:49 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
Exactly. You aren't. We are.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
quote:by Kendahl897 » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:51 pm
by Willowlicious » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:54 pm
It has already been suggested a billion times within this thread that people take a look at The Celluloid Closet for a very extensive, compelling and interesting look at the way gays and lesbians have been portrayed in film. There is a veeerrryy loooonnngg and infamous history of dead and crazy gay people in cinema. It is FACT.
As for Oz and Willow. Well, no that wouldn't be a lesbian cliche seeing how they would be a heterosexual couple. Straight couples don't have a veeeerrrryy loooooonngg and infamous history of turning up dead or crazy the moment they succumb to "sins of the flesh."
It is the CONTEXT. Lesbians have sex=Lesbians immediately die or go on murderous rampage. They could have killed Tara anywhere at any time. They are going to do it right after sex and in the bedroom. CLICHE!!!
[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited March 15, 2002).]
by AutumnT » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:57 pm
quote:
2) She gets back together with Willow
after having a fairly short emotional
conversation about love/trust.
And since given the spoilers for 18 I'm fairly sure that does not happen in that episode we'll see if it happens before the hot monkey love in 19.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
quote:by Wiccagrrl » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:57 pm
by Dave V » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:59 pm
As for the cliché, others have mentioned books to read. Oz-Island, start by looking at films like The Children's Hour (1961). This movie was based on a play from the 1930's. Other such movies have been mentioned in this thread. Man, this theme's old, and it's tired.
[This message has been edited by Dave V (edited March 15, 2002).]
by Web Warlock » Fri Mar 15, 2002 9:01 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Oz_Island:
I still don't see how it would be cliche to have Tara die and Willow go evil...when did it become a hollywood cliche that "gays and lesbians much be punished?" Would it be different if Oz and Willow had been together, and Oz had gotten killed and Willow went "evil" because of it? I don't know...I guess I'm just not familiar with enough movies about gays and lesbians to really say how hollywood preceives these lifestyles.
It is frightenly old. Here take this simple quiz. Write down the names of gay/lebian couples in TV or movies that have been allowed to "live happily ever after". Now count the number of gay or lesbian pairs that have ended in murder, death, suicide, one turning to evil, or (a Hollywood fav), the woman "coming to her senses" and being rescued by the strong and burly man.
I am not coming from this position, merely an outsider, but if EVERY SINGLE portayal of people like you were punished because they DARED love someone else, how would you feel?
Again with me, it is the hypocrisy of the whole thing. They know about the cliché, they acknowledge it, and yet they still do it.
Besides, not to pick nits, but Willow and Oz didn't last. There is every indication from the episode in question that Willow and Tara would have, forever.
Warlock.
------------------
Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
"And remember, if you hurt her, I will beat you to death with a shovel.
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend." - Willow.
[This message has been edited by Web Warlock (edited March 15, 2002).]
quote:by xita » Fri Mar 15, 2002 9:02 pm
quote:
Originally posted by AutumnT:
Since we now have new information it will be pretty easy to tell by episode 19 whether our friend Ed the Spoiler knows of what he speaks. In his first post he said this:
And since given the spoilers for 18 I'm fairly sure that does not happen in that episode we'll see if it happens before the hot monkey love in 19.
Autumn, I think that is the end of 18. It's very short and it is a conversation about trust
quote:by Warbird » Fri Mar 15, 2002 9:07 pm
------------------
I got a problem, can you relate
I got a woman, calling love hate
We made a vow, we'd always be friends
But how could we know that promises end
"Promises"
Eric Clapton
[This message has been edited by Warbird (edited March 15, 2002).]
by AutumnT » Fri Mar 15, 2002 9:10 pm
quote:
Originally posted by xita:
Autumn, I think that is the end of 18. It's very short and it is a conversation about trust
Xita are you talking about the "can we just skip it" thing? Because that didn't really read about being about love & trust to me. That just sort of talked about I know we should go through it, but let's skip it. Maybe Ed can clear up if that was what he was talking about or something else.
------------------
Autumn
I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.
quote:by Wiccagrrl » Fri Mar 15, 2002 9:26 pm
Buffy fan A (usually a kitten) "OMG, I can't believe they are gonna kill off Tara and turn Willow evil. That's so cliche!"
Buffy fan B: "Cliche? How? What cliche? Has this been done before?"
Buffy fan A: "Uh, yeah. Lots of times. Go read The Celluloid Closet. Here are a couple of examples. It's not a good message, y'know?"
Buffy fan B: "Huh." (Hopefully a spark of interest or education has been planted)
Gets people talking, gets people thinking. If the storyline doesn't cave into the cliche, but does indeed turn it on its head, hey...may not be a bad thing, y'know?
[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited March 15, 2002).]
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