The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe Willow & Tara Forever

by **DISASTERAREA** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:20 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Xanadu:
mmm...anyone else just go to a yummy visual place? Thanks for that, April
[This message has been edited by Xanadu (edited March 10, 2002).]

ummmmmm...yep!

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Your wife has a rubber hand!?! ~ Johnny Vaughn to ASH
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WILLOW: Girl friends, really.
TARED: Yes, we are girl friends.
WILLOW: We are in the love. We are... the in love ones. Lesbian, in love with merry-type.
NIGEL: I wanted to say your relationship with the killer.
TARED: UM, right friendly goods.quote:

by **WillowLikeWhoa** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:26 pm

In my personal experience, yes, some lesbians do have a problem with bisexual woman, mostly because they fear being left for a man. However, I think the real reason is because people have a problem with bisexuals because they don't like the idea that sexuality is not black and white. They are intimidated by the idea that there are some people who are not just gay or straight, but somewhere in between. Perhaps it brings to light the fact (or theory, really) that sexuality is not separated into just 3 sections (gay, straight, bi) but is really spread over a spectrum. With straight at one end and gay at the other, and various degrees of bisexuality in the middle, ranging from bis who lend more towards being gay than straight, or bis who are more straight than gay. Does that make any sense?

Anyway, I just want to say that you should go ahead and get out there and take a chance. If someone dismisses you because you are bi, it's their loss.

~Michelle~

by **Genea** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:27 pm

I feel that bi girls are just as warm and sexy as every other woman. Straight, gay, bi I 'll take a bite from every pie.

------------------
Sugarloaf
"..I just want something thats ya know,mine."
"I am you,you know."
"What."
"Yours."

by **Karzia** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:39 pm

quote:

I'm not too sure what lesbians think about bisexual women. I guess I'm in that category where 'I like women better, but wouldn't say no to a guy'

I think I would fall into this catagory, I dated men all through high school and college and then fell hoplessly in love with my wife (ow of 16 years). Granted we complacated things my being polyogamous, which means that for many years we both had a male lover on the side and at one time were even a active threesome. Currantly she still has a male lover, and I have a girlfreind/lover on the side.

As I have become more comfortable with myself I have gradually come to identify as a lesbian, though in reality Bisexual is problly more accurate.

It has been my experience that Gay women don't dislike Bi women, it is more that they don't completly understand them, any more than they understand their straight conterparts.

quote:
Originally posted by Visitor:
so, basically, the consensus is that as long as i approach things honestly and am open about where i'm at, then i won't be burned in effagy by the lesbian community at large?

Well in a nut shell, Yes. Go forth and fly, be free of your shell, express yourself with honesty and compassion.

------------------
Ad astea per asta

*edited to say that instead of double posting, please edit your first post, and add anything new to that one.

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited March 10, 2002).]quote:quote:

by **shellybean** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:57 am

I actually remember one of my friends cousin was a lesbian and told me that she didn't understand bisexuals. She wasn't against us or anything, but she couldn't understand how a person could like both sexes. I tried to explain that I'm not confused like many people say about bisexuals, I'm just attracted to people as individuals and don't really look at the sex. Sometimes the person is a man and sometimes(more often than not) the person is a female. I hate it when people(I say people because both gay and strait people sometimes feel this way) feel that bisexuals are confused fence sitters who just can't make up their minds. I know what I feel and I know that I feel it for both males and females.

by **Anakin1218** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 1:10 am

Honestly I dont like labels but thats just the way the world works:P And Ive got no problem with bi women unless thier the LUG type(hate to use a label but I couldn't think of any other word)...it's almost like 'lesbian cool' on college campuses has gone too far.

But I'll get off my soapbox,just be true to yourself and while that can really hurt sometimes it'll save you grief and mondo unhappiness in the long run.

I use to be the type that was a little down on bi women,cause I assumed(wrongly) that most where of the LUG type and I swore up and down that Id never date one; well life came along two years ago and kicked me in the pants! When I met my gf she id'd as bi but only bc she was afraid to come out as lesbian,feeling that she'd catch less crud from her family if she stayed bi. Gradually she relized that she was indeed lesbian and came out to her family unit(which didn't go postal like mine). So I got a dose of tolerance and an inside look at another person's coming out,plus the love of my life:)

Lol Ruth-dry clean

Hmm my labe would prolly say: book love and caffine consumer.

by **wiccie** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 1:14 am

Visitor, there's a old joke here in San Francisco:

"She's a Lesbian Who Sleeps With Men; formerly known as the Bisexual."

Be who you are, change your mind if you like, but live free and be happy. How anyone, lesbian or not, reacts to you shouldn't be dependant upon your sexual identity.

People sometimes have big, open minds and others - even among the lesbian community - are still painfully small.

Your mileage may vary, so just be honest with yourself and whoever you end up with.

oops, pardon me while I dangle that particple...

by **EvilAnya** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 1:24 am

Sometimes i wonder about the portrayal of bisexuals in the media and how that effects the way we're viewed(or if the media is a reflection of how we're viewed). I hate saying I'm bi, i too have an image in my mind of what "bisexual" means. Images of girls kissing their girl friends to turn their boyfriends on. Girls who don't even go that far and just say they're bisexual to be cool. John Waters once commented on the whole lesbian cool thing, he said something like "you can pretend all you want to for your friends, but you can't fake eating pussy"

Anyhow, i understand the fear of the word "bisexual" and in turn the fear of bisexuals by the gay community, the image presented of bisexuals is not very flattering, who wants someone who's a fence sitter? someone who can't make up their mind? someone co-opting their identity for the sake of fashion? The key is dialogue between the gay community and the bi community.

We should be allies, we need to try to understand where the other is coming from. I also think it's important for bisexuals, in addition to realizing oppression, should be aware of certain priviledges they have (passing as het, for example).

having said all this, the closest label i come to is bi, but i usually just say queer, in fact that describes me much better as i don't feel comfortable with the binary gender system.

by **shellybean** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 1:29 am

I agree with what you said evilanya. I think the way we're portrayed kind of affects the way we're judged. I know the type of women who call themselves bisexual only because they think its cool or because they make out with other girls sometimes for fun or for attention but would never actually sleep with a girl. So I understand some of the hostility towards bisexuals becuase I hate those types of girls too. I just hope people who hold these hostilities will understand that not all bisexuals are like that and we can't help being attracted to both sexes any more than lesbians can help being attracted to women.

by **willow's girl** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 2:22 am

Oops, I meant April, not Xita! Shows how much attention I pay to the little things like names Anywho, couldn't get the editing feature to work so I posted a new reply. And I most definately went to a happy visual place.

I guess the main thing with bisexuality and homosexuality is that people are sometimes scared of what they don't understand. I think love is wonderful, who is loving who hardly matters to me. I'd love to see the day when people are more focused on falling for a person's soul than their gender.

by La » Mon Mar 11, 2002 2:33 am

That'll happen some day, Willow's girl! Just look at all the progress the world has made in the last 50-60 years or so when it comes to gay rights. Eventually, no matter how bleak it may seem (or not) right now, we'll be able to marry whomever we want wherever we want. I have complete faith in people that it will happen in the future. We just have to wait and be patient and do what we can to help educate people who are simply ignorant of the way things are (like my attempt to find a good video to show my students that subtly shows gay/lesbians in high school in a positive light). Many people who are against gay marriage just aren't educated about it and have never really thought about it on their own, they're simply regurgitating what they've been taught by religious figures, family members, teachers, whomever. Once they actually think about things and/or meet someone who can educate them about it, they realize how comepletely natural things like that are.

The world will become a happy all-inclusive place, I have no doubt.

Sorry for the mini-rant

~La

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Taree: ah'm, yo' know...
Willer: Whut in tarnation?
Taree: Yourn...

[This message has been edited by La (edited March 11, 2002).]

by **Pixie-Muso** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:03 am

Well, I thought your mini-rant was cute, La.

I think maybe one day your hope and vision will come true - sadly, I doubt it'll happen in my lifetime. Though, it may seem that one can only hope - one can really do much more! I really have to congratulate our gay-activist forerunners and pioneers... I hope one day to join in the whole gay (or what I hope to be a free - freedom - open) marriage - but once high school is over. I'm counting it down - less than 7 months 'till I graduate!

OK, now I'm sorry for my mini-rant.

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"...the hardest thing in this world is to live in it..."
~Buffy, The Gift.

by **wiltar** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 4:18 am

My first and so far only gf was bi. To me it didn't matter at all.... until she dumped me for a boy. But it didn't change my feelings about bisexuals. When it comes down to it, we're all humans, seeking love.

Patricia

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"What are they looking at?"
"The hotness of you, doofus!"

by La » Mon Mar 11, 2002 6:41 am

quote:
Originally posted by wiltar:
When it comes down to it, we're all humans, seeking love.

I really like that. I've certainly heard things along those lines before, but I don't think I've heard it phrased exactly like that before, and it's a great way to say it. I may just start quoting you (in sigs, etc), Patricia, if you have no problems with that?

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~La

"No good sittin' worryin' abou' it. What's comin' will
come, an' we'll meet it when it does."
~Hagrid, from "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire".quote:

by **dusty** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:24 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Banshee:
Hell, in the end, I know they'll eventually end up lesbian anyway

I know you're probably just joking, but a lot of lesbians have this attitude, and it really bothers me. I know that a lot of women come out as bisexual and then decide they are lesbians, but this is not everyone's experience. I came out as a lesbian, but a year-and-a-half later I realized I was actually bisexual (although I usually just say "queer"), and I know a number of other women who had the same experience. This is who I am, and it bugs me when lesbians assume that this is "just a phase" and that I'm going to decide I'm 100% gay at some time in the future.quote:

by **willog** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 2:59 pm

Hi - for about a year ow I've been comfortable with my bi-sexuality (attracted to gitls, but will go out with the right guy) and I've considered telling my friends. I think that they'd all be okay with it, but one friend, carry, reacted badly to the coming out of a bi girl that we used to go to school with. She basically put it as being easy enough to not even worry about the gender, and that really hurt and made me think twice about telling her. I know that she probably would support my choice if she knew, but I know now for a fact what some people will think and it's preapared me a bit. You guys have shown the good side though - ta

label free is probable best

by **xita** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:51 pm

How do lesbians feel about bisexuals? I am going to assume, you'd have to be a lesbian to answer this question (cough, hint).

Anyway, it all depends on the lesbian and it all depends on the bisexual. I think that with education, relations have improved. So as general groups I don't believe there is animosity. Individuals always have issues, that is the nature of the beast.

The only complaint I have ever heard is that some lesbians don't want to be used as an experiment or a test, but hey some of us don't mind at all . However, these are specific situations that do not apply to all lesbians or bisexuals.

Bisexuals are no more likely to be promiscuous or polyamorous than lesbians or straight folks.

If someone is going to make a judgement on you as a potential friend or lover based on the label you choose or the lack of a label, they aren't worth your time. Being a lesbian is about the girl on girl action you know? So I think most of us concentrate on that above all else.

by **jsr** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 4:09 pm

Ok, so I've seen this thread around for a couple of days, and I've been avoiding it cause I have somewhat of an un-PC opinion regarding bisexuality. But fuck it, here goes:

As Banshee so eloquently stated (much moreso than I ever could) my issue is not with bisexuality, but rather the heterosexual priveledge that comes along with it. Unfortunately, in our society,
same sex relationships are not held on an equal plain with heterosexual ones. Quite frankly, in millions of ways, it is just easier to carry on a heterosexual relationship than a gay one.

I think bisexuality is a noble concept, and if we lived in a perfect society (where every thing was equal) I would have no reservations about dating bisexual women. But we don't live in that perfect society.

Without going into tedious detail, I have experienced a couple of not so great relationships with bisexual women where the heterosexual priveledge was more than obvious. The boyfriends got to meet the parents, and I got to stay the discreet secret.

I am perfectly aware that these experiences have clouded my perception. But I have also come to realize, through these experiences, who I am and what I want. I am a proud lesbian, I am out to almost everyone, and I really, really like (to put it bluntly) pussy. And I've decided that this is also what I want in my partner. Hence, I have a high standard for anyone I date, lesbian or bi. If I were to date a bisexual woman, I would want to know that she would treat me like she would a boyfriend -- that she would take me home to meet her folks, and hold my hand in the street, and tell her friends how cute I am, and perhaps even want to marry me (regardless of how legal it is.) That's really the issue folks -- I would just want to be treated equally. And unfortunately, this is just very difficult given the nature of our inequitable society.

Quiche anyone? (I'm hungry)

Jill

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I lurk, therefore I am.

by **wiltar** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 4:19 pm

quote:
Originally posted by La:
I really like that. I've certainly heard things along those lines before, but I don't think I've heard it phrased exactly like that before, and it's a great way to say it. I may just start quoting you (in sigs, etc), Patricia, if you have no problems with that?

Be my guest! Use it wherever you like.

Patricia

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"What are they looking at?"
"The hotness of you, doofus!"quote:

by **Mally B** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:58 pm

I'm a gay girl, and sometimes I get this wierd like pent up anger towards bisexuals. Maybe I'm just jealous that they can still have crushes on guys. Anyway, the reason I could never a date a bisexual: Not only could I lose them to any girl in the world (theoretically) but also any guy in the world. Basically, instead of having to worry about half the population, i'd have to worry about the whole population. I don't think i could deal with feeling like that, although I do have a slight crush on a bi girl now and I don't know. I guess we'll see.

edited because im a moron

- Mally B
"mmm cookies"

[This message has been edited by Mally B (edited March 11, 2002).]

by **Ryath** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:16 pm

You know what? I actually had to think about this question.

The thing is, the only self-proclaimed "bi" girl I ever knew was a trendy dyke. Uhg, actual situation: I was at a party, and I was gonna put on an album or something and she said in all seriousness:

"Ooh? That singer? She's gay, so she must be really good. Put her on!"

Then she bopped away the whole night through. Ironically, the singer was like..not a lesbian. (I forget who it was..like..Natalie Imbruglia or somethin).

But really..I think I've sort of come to the concolusion that I really don't care who anyone sleeps with. Or in which fashion they choose to do it in. I'm happy if they're happy, ya know? It's about having fun, and sharing something..it doesn't matter who're your with. I guess that sounds sort of naieve, but still...

Beh On the other hand...if Willow were to suddenly "revert" I'd be REALLY upset. Erg..I should have thought this out better. I'm not a hypocrite...really!

Ehhh..*runs away*

by **Visitor** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:19 pm

man i LOVE you guys!!!

it's so good to read so many different perspectives on this. some confirmed my fears but overall i feel reassured that i have a right to go out and do what i need to do, as always with a considerate, loving attitude. i am feeling better about doing that.

i haven't come out to my mom and sister as bi because frankly, i don't think i know for sure unless i like it in real life! i've preferred lesbian fantasies since i was a young teenager, but have fallen in love with scores of men (unrequited for the most part, but they were men!). my gay male friend says that he was socialized to like women, but that i kind of sound like him... so i don't know, but i don't think i CAN know until i let myself have those kinds of same sex experiences.

however, i do want to say that if i DO date a woman, i WILL tell my family, my friends, everyone. i have some weird issues with my mom (quasi abusive) that i won't get into here, but i'm not comfortable with her knowing much about me in that area of my life. also, unless i'm actually dating someone, i don't think there's much to tell! my private fantasy life is really none of their business! my family is very open, but even if they weren't, i would tell them. i wouldn't ever want someone i was with to think i was ashamed of him or her.

can't thank you all enough for being so open and honest with me about this. i've so appreciated the attitudes so many of you seem to have--gives me hope!

*hugs*

Visitor

by **dusty** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:33 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Mally B:
Basically, instead of having to worry about half the population, i'd have to worry about the whole population.

This is the biggest reason I hear that lesbians don't want to date bi girls, and honestly I think it is crap. If someone is going to leave you, it is because the relationship is not working, not because there are just way too many tempting people in the world. Lesbians are just as capable as bi girls of cheating on you/leaving you for someone else, and I think if someone is going to do that, they are going to do it no matter what their sexual orientation is.

[This message has been edited by dusty (edited March 12, 2002).]quote:

by **Banshee** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 6:52 am

Unless you're out there conducting Harris Polls of lesbian feelings and the opinion is coming from a handful of friends, you can't really use that as a general opinion. As Xita said.. "ask a lesbian."
As I mentioned before alot of it comes down to deep rooted personal stuff.. As someone said, there are MANY who take advantage of the system when they want to and when it's convienent for them. I can say that I have also been party to that. I NEVER got to meet the family, while the bf got to spend a week with them--same amount of time in the relationship, mind you. And, though I'm engaged in my current relationship, do I worry about us? Hell yeah. I'm human and I never want to feel like I have kept her from experiencing something in her life(ie, men). But, when I do get paranoid--which is less often then it was w/other bisexual girls--she reassures me. Also, though, it has A LOT to do with the fact that I don't feel overly insecure with her(like when ex's would flirt w/guys right in front of me or shite like that).
Also, education, as Xita said, is a big thing--for everyone on either side of that fence. It is education that will, idealisticly, move us pass our differences. But, it is also education that makes us painfully aware of them. I spent 3 1/2 hours in a class last night being reminded about how there is little or no constitutional protection for 'homosexuals' and what 'basic fundamental elements of liberty(ie, marriage, privacy)' I am being denied on a daily basis. This happens, mostly, because I am blaringly out. If I want to change this system, I can't be anything less than that. But, unfortunately, it is also that visability that pushes me further and further away from being able to take part in a heterosexist community/society.
I also think it's great to say, as many have here, that "OH, WHO CARES--I LOVE EVERYONE." It's nice.. but, not realistic. In fact, I'm beginning to wonder why I haven't been passed the ecstasy yet. It's nice to say, 'fuck labels' and 'screw stereotypes' and 'eliminate gender roles', but you also have to acknowledge that there are people working through some major shit that you have no idea about or that you'll ever have to face and if some cannot hold this opinion, for what ever reason, you have to at least acknowledge it.

-S
**end rant**

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"Believe me I don't want to go,
And it'll grieve me 'cause I love you so
But we both know..."

by **buffelina** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 7:31 am

I personally do not see sexuality/sexual identity as something that is fixed and rigid. (But, I am speaking from my own experience. Others may find it completely different.)
For me, however, I've always believed sexuality is a continuum. I've dated men, have a steady boyfriend, yet find men AND women sexually attractive. If I wasn't in a committed, fulfilling, and loving relationship already, I'd be open to one a with a woman. Basically, I'd be in search of a person. I don't know what that makes me, but does it matter? Do I have to have a label assigned to me? Personally, I find labels limiting.
Bottom line: When I fall in love, I fall in complete love with a person, a human being.

[This message has been edited by buffelina (edited March 14, 2002).]

by **dusty** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 8:41 am

quote:
Originally posted by buffelina:
For me, however, I've always believed sexuality is a continuum

I agree, although sometimes I think even that seems a little two-dimensional. I don't even feel that the world bisexual alwyas describes me (which is why I use the word queer mostly), because not only does it imply a gender binary, but it also implies that gender is a foundation for my sexual orientation. I'm not saying I am never attracted to people because of something relating to their gender, but there are a whole host of other factors in sexual orientation (for example, if someone is a lesbian, they are not attracted to *all* women, so there must be other limiting factors). Gender just seems to be the only one society places much importance in. I definitely like what you said in your post, but I just wanted to say that I see at as something even more multi-dimensional than just a line from male to female.

quote:
Originally posted by Banshee:
Unless you're out there conducting Harris Polls of lesbian feelings and the opinion is coming from a handful of friends, you can't really use that as a general opinion.

I didn't mean to imply that any of what I was referring to was what most lesbians think. I simply meant that it was stuff I had heard in my own experience, and stuff that was said on this thread. It's insulting to be told that I just haven't realized that I'm a lesbian yet or that just because I'm attracted to men, that I can't be faithful to a woman.

[This message has been edited by dusty (edited March 12, 2002).]quote:quote:

by **Sara&Mel** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 11:57 am

Hi! We´re new here.
(excuse us if our english isn´t very good, we are 19 and 20 years old and from Spain )
We´ve read this and wanted to tell that it´s ok if you´re lesbian or bisexual, it doesn´t matter as long as you find the person you love, and that person really does love you. I´m here writing this with my girlfriend (I´m also a girl )
In our case.. we are both bi, and before I met her, I never realiced that I could fall in love with a girl. This thing just happends, we were not looking for it, I liked being with her, she was my bestfriend.. I didn´t know how she would react if I told her about my feelings... I didn´t care if she was straight, bi, lesbian.. whatever. I just loved her, nothing else matters.
Actually, she felt the same way, and now we are very happy together. There is the posibility that me or her can fall in love with a guy or another girl, but I don´t care, I love her, she loves me, and I´m sure that it won´t happen.

*I look to my girl* - you´re not dating anyone besides me, are you????- O_o
*she smiles and looks at me with a misterious face* - you think so?
*I took out my spells book* -I hope you don´t darling

nice to meet you all! ^__^

Sara & Mel

by **Gadget** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 6:10 pm

As a lesbian I can say I don't understand bisexuals, or heterosexuals but I also don't have to...actually I dunno if I get many lesbians either..but I don't have too..just be yourself and you will be cool..open-ness and honesty is the only way to approach this situation..if you are bisexual let us dykes know most won't care but some will and that is their problem ..

personally love labels, they have a power, they may sterotype me but then sterotypes have a little truth and its up to me to subvert and change that truth..all members of society are sterotyped its one of the ways we make sense of the world as are labels..are they fair nope but as they are applied to veryone I don't feel all that special in this respect
My label is Indigenous Australian, Irish, German, French Australian Surfer Allergic to Sugar, Peanuts and Dairy products with wonderful curly hair lesbian..its a fairly specific label...but functional nontheless..

by **Visitor** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 7:25 pm

quote:
personally love labels, they have a power, they may sterotype me but then sterotypes have a little truth and its up to me to subvert and change that truth..all members of society are sterotyped its one of the ways we make sense of the world as are labels..are they fair nope but as they are applied to veryone I don't feel all that special in this respect
My label is Indigenous Australian, Irish, German, French Australian Surfer Allergic to Sugar, Peanuts and Dairy products with wonderful curly hair lesbian..its a fairly specific label...but functional nontheless..

LOL honey that was priceless!!!

i've been kind of thinking along those lines lately, actually. maybe labels can be either limiting OR empowering depending on how you perceive/approach them.

what i've mostly seen here is that there is a wide variety of opinions on this. as this is about as close as i can get to a survey on the subject, i'm happy to see that the results are so varied!

i said that i wouldn't want to do an "Anne Heche", but really what did she do? she left one relationship for another. yeah, that hurts, but if she'd gone to another woman, it still would have hurt. there are just plain no guarantees. even though i don't want to hurt someone, i can't guarantee that i won't, any more than i can guarantee that i won't get hurt another million more times myself.

love hurts. risk brings pleasure AND pain. that's life.

thanks again all--you rock!!!

Visitorquote:

by **Karzia** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:45 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mally B:
[B]I'm a gay girl, and sometimes I get this wierd like pent up anger towards bisexuals. Maybe I'm just jealous that they can still have crushes on guys. Anyway, the reason I could never a date a bisexual: Not only could I lose them to any girl in the world (theoretically) but also any guy in the world. Basically, instead of having to worry about half the population, i'd have to worry about the whole population.

By the same token a Bi women/man could say "why limit my options?" Hummm..

An earler post commented (sorry I would have quoted you but I have alove hate relasionship with the edit button) that it was the Hetro-privilage of the bisexual that is the problem. I totaly agree, as a bisexual, I have been on the bad end of "He gets to meet the parents, and I don't"... let me tell you it sucks However that is really not the point, people fall in love with each other, I would like to think independant of their gender.

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Edited cuase I too am a moron
Ad astea per asta

[This message has been edited by Karzia (edited March 13, 2002).]

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