My new essay: "Willow's Problem: It's Not About The Power"

[tommo]

Right on xita. You pretty much said it all. I think a lot of people have jumped on the whole "rape" notion because of the word Tara uses - "violation".

I honestly don't think it goes that far though. The chasm between them at the moment exists because of a lack of trust, which I think Willow is going a long way to eradicate. Just this time without magic.

------------------
No metaphors...just fucking.

[June]

Thank you for easing my mind xita and sorry for bringing it up, I just had a panic attack. You all are wonderful and brilliant. Let's go back to the Willow/Tara love.

[Genea]

Very nice, Bob.
I have always looked at this whole Willow thing from my own perspective as someone who has known recovering junkies. When your on drugs you know what your doing is wrong but your need for how it makes you feel or what it lets you be able to do is overwhelming. Willow loves Tara but felt that her magic made her something she couldn't normally be.
I had a friend who relapsed 8 times, now he'd been clean for 8 years and for a long time everyday was a struggle for him. When he was high once he actually beat up his little brother so he could take his money.
Addiction is hard to overcome regardless of what it is and you will slip up. My friend said the only thing that got him through those really hard times was us(his friends and his wife). We stuck with him through sweats, shakes and eight relapses. When I asked him why he kept going back to coke he said because it made him feel like he could do or be anything. He felt invincible and I can see the attaction to that myself.
If anything I was a tad miffed at Tara for bailing out so fast addiction is no day at the park especially when the people you love the most bail on you.

Just my opinion

------------------
Sugarloaf
"..I just want something thats ya know,mine."
"I am you,you know."
"What."
"Yours."

[Lanfear]

If it had been 'just' addiction, I dont think Tara would have left at all, but stood by her. What she left for was Willow messing with her mind, repeatedly. As someone said, she feared there would be nothing left of her.

Just checked the shooting script of Restless since someone mentioned it earlier, and allready there you can see Willow's fear of loosing Tara if she's just nerd-girl like in the start of the series.
(buffy has just ripped of Willows dress showing that she has underneath the same dress as in the very first episode of the series)

She sits behind a desk and we see the class is in fact filled. Among the students, all of whom eye us with contempt, are Xander, Harmony, Anya, Oz and Tara. Oz and Tara lean in close to each other, as though they've been whispering for some time.

HARMONY
See? Is everybody very clear
on this now?

ANYA
(laughing)
Oh my god! It's like a tragedy!

OZ
(to Tara)
I tried to warn you…

Tara smirks, leans back in to Oz.

Edited again to add (and yes, I have spent all day reading W/T parts of shooting scripts)
this is from Crush in ses5 about the hunchback of notre dame.

TARA
No, see, it can't end like that, 'cuz
all of Quasimodo's actions were
selfishly motivated. He had no moral
compass, no understanding of what was
right. Everything he did, he did out
of love for a woman who'd never be
able to love him back. Also, you can
tell it's not gonna have a happy ending,
when the main guys all bumpy.

now that could in large parts fit very well with both some of Willows lack of direction, and the whole B/S arc, wich really startet in this episode where she's made aware off his feelings.

[This message has been edited by Lanfear (edited March 07, 2002).]

[Lanfear]

bump? (I considered making a new thread and asking about opinions on those things, but thought this thread seemed much better suited. if I shouldnt have bumped it like this, a mod deleting this post will send it back to page 2 (I found out by testing, heh))

[Under Her Spell]

I Quasimodo quote is one of those scenes where you think it's just for fun, but if you look back on it then you realize it's just a great big honkin' portent, as Riley would say.

[Cipher]

While there is some remote parallel between violating someone's mind and violating someone's body, there are too many differences between the forget spells and actual rape to make much meaningful comparison. The closest thing we have to a mind violation in the real world is possibly brainwashing (such as with chemicals, hypnosis, etc), and it's a fairly despicable thing. Brainwashing is also generally done for sinister purposes, not to make someone just forget about a fight with and a criticism of someone they love. There's some incongruity there: Willow did an arguably despicable thing in violating the sanctity of Tara's mind, but her motives (while wrong) were not that bad, and it's fairly shocking that someone basically "good" could do something like that and think so little of it (that's what addiction'll do to ya). But she didn't think Tara was not worthy of consideration or just someone to be used as she saw fit, so the parallel to actual rape falls pretty flat.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Genea:
If anything I was a tad miffed at Tara for bailing out so fast addiction is no day at the park especially when the people you love the most bail on you.

---

I think if you consider the circumstances Tara was under her leaving is quite understandable. Willow showed she was capable of removing Tara's memories in such a way that Tara couldn't help her by being there, and Willow was willing to do so even after Tara found out about the first time and (eventually) confronted her on it. There's no way Tara could help Willow if she can't even rely on her own memory to recognize that Willow has a problem, and there's no way Tara could trust Willow (at that time) after she'd done so twice and put the whole gang in danger in the process.

Fortunately Willow realized (enough) that it was wrong that she didn't try to make Tara forget that she wanted to leave all over again (though she still didn't recognize or admit in the next couple episodes that Tara's leaving was because of what Willow herself had done ("...until one day they leave you for no good reason.")). (That's the difference (well, one...) between Willow and Warren. Warren felt it was ok to use magick to manipulate Karen(?) back; Willow never tried to manipulate Tara again after she actually left.)

Leaving was the only way Tara could help Willow, as painful as it was for each of them.quote:

[The Rose]

Ditto, Cipher!!!!

Great explanation!!!!

------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[Salix]

Great essay there!

Getting back to the sharing Wicca holidays and rituals together question that YuriPop raised... On Buffy Wicca=Witch=Sorceress. No religion - just spells. They show magic as only a Dark Art. Tara doesn't channel the power as fully as Willow and hence doesn't get the same head rush, black eyes, etc. What they show on TV isn't really Wicca, or at least it's only a tiny part. Not evey Wiccan actually practices magic, but they get into the rituals and lore and the whole one with nature aspect. But not as lame as the Wicca Club in 'Hush'. "...bunch of wanna blessed be's. You know nowadays every girl with a Henna tattoo and a spice rack thinks she's a sister to the dark ones." See? Magic through the "dark ones".

Willow and Tara are not Wiccans as it is defined by most practitioners. As others have said, they don't mention Sabat or Esbat celebrations. But even if they did celebratory rituals, they do not require magic of any kind. They are to get in tune with the energy of the universe (through the God and Goddess). And not whatever "dark" energy is used on the show. Technically they could stay together with Tara still practicing the whole Wicca thing and Willow just skipping the magic part. Tara seems more into the religousy side of it as well as practicing magic anyway. Getting into the energy of a ritual is completely different. It's not like trading being a heroin addict to be a methadone addict, as the old Robin Williams joke goes.

Willow getting addicted to magic was due to her poor self-image and a natural ability to channel the dark energy, and not a lust for power. Just about everyone seems to agree on that. I'm sure Tara will forgive her for being afraid to just be herself and not Super-Willow. Once Willow discovers that Tara loves the regular Willow then they will be closer than ever. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Edited to try and arrange things so it made more sense. I failed miserably.

S

------------------
Buffy: The world is what it is---we fight, we die. Wishing doesn't change that.
Giles: I have to believe in a better world.
Buffy: Go ahead. I have to live in this one.

[This message has been edited by Salix (edited March 08, 2002).]

[Zahir]

About to pontificate here. You've been warned.

Human beings are motivated pretty much by fear and desire. We want something, or we fear it. Details get vastly, hugely complicated but that's it in a nutshell (at least according to mystic tradition). When we don't ever grow beyond those two, we live rather matter-of-fact lives. At worst, we become greedy cowards. Usually, there are two ways to get beyond the Cycle of Fear and Desire.

One is to renounce the world--vanish into your navel and leave this veil of tears behind. Another is to transcend those two basic emotions into the realm of Compassion and Loyalty.

Willow's violation of Tara was motivated by much the same emotions as Warren's placing a zombification spell on his ex. Both wanted love, affection, snuggles and no interference with any of the above. Both were greedy, cowardly acts ('though clearly one was much more brutal).

Here's the difference. Willow feels compassion and loyalty while Warren evidently doesn't. So for her, there's hope. Actually, quite a lot of it. I won't go so far as to say Warren can't be redeemed, but he has lots farther to go (and if he doesn't get on that path then he can't get where Willow's heading). It isn't the specific acts they did that make Warren and Willow different, it is them.

And to emphasize my point, here's a disturbing thought. Did Willow have sex with Tara after making her forget the argument? Or if the Tabula Rasa spell had lasted long enough for Willow and Tara to end up in bed? Or simply worked the way Willow intended? Magical Mind Control to get sex--sounds like rape to me.

But then, I firmly hold the potential for redemption exists in the vilest of us.

Unclicking my soapbox icon now...

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[Dr.G]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zahir:

Willow's violation of Tara was motivated by much the same emotions as Warren's placing a zombification spell on his ex. Both wanted love, affection, snuggles and no interference with any of the above. Both were greedy, cowardly acts ('though clearly one was much more brutal).

---

If warren wanted love he wouldn´t have dressed up Katrina in that costume and he would not have cracked her skull with a bottle simply because she was trying to escape, I don´t care if he did not intend to kill her, he HIT her.
Willow did not put a spell on Tara to make her love her, she loved Tara so much she could not stand to fight with her, of course she should not have done it, and it was wrong, but as far as I´m concerned nothing Willow ever did compares to what Warren has done or is capable of. I will never see the likeness in their characters or actions.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited March 08, 2002).]quote:

[tommo]

I think what we're getting at here is a question of morals. Warren is immoral; he acts in his own interests although he understands that he is going against society's constructs of what constitutes "good" behaviour. He knows he's wrong but still he doesn't change the way he acts.

Willow, on the other hand, knows that she's wrong. And yes, her acts could be considered immoral. But you know, she's paid for it since, hasn't she. The guilt and fear she felt in Wrecked when she broke down and said she needed help...that kind of pointed with a huge great honkin' finger to the fact that she's well aware of her behaviour and is willing to change it.

It's not like she forced Tara to love her against her will; we know that Tara's love for Willow is indisputable. It's strong and steadfast and Tara leaving wasn't an admittance of failure, but of strength. Even if Willow did have sex with Tara after All The Way, it can't possibly be considered rape because that wasn't Willow's primary reason for doing the forget spell.

She acted immorally out of a fear of reprisal and losing the one thing that had loved her like no other.

Warren acted immorally out of self serving interest and a desire to gain power.

The notion of sex and rape doesn't really come into it for me. The sexual aspect of either situation is an extension of the desire for power. And as Bob has pointed out, Willow's really not about the power whatsoever. Even when she had it, she ended up making Tara's dress come alive. Not brain-sucking some poor girl to love her.

------------------
No metaphors...just fucking.

[Zahir]

I never said Warren was moral, or that Willow wanted power. Nor do I think they'd really agree on what "love" is (a major clue there, by god!). My interest is the exact nature of the difference between them. That one is "moral" and the other not, or one is "a creep" and the other not isn't precise enough for my purposes.

Another way to put it--both Warren and Willow have souls. But Willow has used hers a lot more. Incidently, that's one reason methinks VampWillow is soooooo different from regular Willow. VampWarren would just have fangs, I'd bet. But I digress.

Specifically, Willow nurtured her compassion and loyalty. Even when she betrayed both she didn't lose them. Warren, for whatever reason, didn't. That doesn't make him a monster, or something unhuman. It makes him about as bad (in a fairly mundane way) as human beings get.

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[tommo]

I think Warren is completely without conscience. To me, that's pretty inhuman.

------------------
No metaphors...just fucking.

[Warduke]

I agree with Ruth, and Warren will get what's coming to him.

[tommo]

Oh yes Brian. Because as we all know, in the Buffyverse, innocents are never killed without serious consequences. And having offed Katrina, I'm sure Warren will be made to suffer.

That's what I'm saying isn't it? Um, yeah. That's what I'm saying. Warren will get his. Big time. Because you know, Joss wouldn't let his crimes against humanity go unpunished, would he?

------------------
No metaphors...just fucking.

[Dazey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by xita:
It's twisting the word rape beyond recognition. Willow had not intention of sex when she did the forget spell she wanted to have the fighting end.

If Willow raped tara, then Tara raped Willow as well. Tara lied about her potential demon heritage and still slept with Willow.

---

Actually xita, I think you may be twisting the definition of rape here. What does Willow's "not [having the] intention of sex" have to do with anything? Rape is not about sex. Rape is an act of physical violation. What Rack did to Willow in "Wrecked" was very clearly meant to be seen as a form of rape--and it's very clearly analogous to what Willow did to Tara. Cipher writes, "there are too many differences between the forget spells and actual rape to make much meaningful comparison. The closest thing we have to a mind violation in the real world is possibly brainwashing...." This is true, but we are not in the real world, we are in the Buffyverse, a world where a practictioner of magick, like Rack or Willow, can physically violate another person with magick. This Rack did to Willow, and this Willow did to Tara. That was sort of the point of the scene with Rack, I thought, to make Willow realize what a horrific thing she had done to Tara. I'm not saying that Rack and Willow are the same. In fact I am sure they are wholly different; I know that Willow is basically good. That doesn't change the similarity of these two actions.

Frankly I find the comparison of Willow doing the forget spells and "Tara l[ying] about her potential demon heritage and still sl[eeping] with Willow" ludicrous and offensive.quote:

[VampNo1]

I am curious what they writers have in store for Warren's killing of Katrina. I highly doubt they will let Buffy kill another human, not matter how vile said human is. So what else could they do? I guess he could go to jail for his crimes, but that seems to easy for a fanasty show like Buffy. So my question is how do you think Warren will get his just desserts?

[Cipher]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dazey:
Rape is not about sex. Rape is an act of physical violation. What Rack did to Willow in "Wrecked" was very clearly meant to be seen as a form of rape--and it's very clearly analogous to what Willow did to Tara. Cipher writes, "there are too many differences between the forget spells and actual rape to make much meaningful comparison. The closest thing we have to a mind violation in the real world is possibly brainwashing...." This is true, but we are not in the real world, we are in the Buffyverse, a world where a practictioner of magick, like Rack or Willow, can physically violate another person with magick.

---

That was sorta my point (real vs Buffyverse). It's hard to sensibly analyze the forget spell with real-world experience because such things are not generally possible. In the Buffyverse such things are possible, but we have little experience in feeling the moral implications of it; that's part of why opinions as to how "bad" it was vary so widely. One way to come at it is to consider brainwashing (though we still only really know it through fiction) and compare how it is similar and how it is different.

quote:

---

This Rack did to Willow, and this Willow did to Tara. That was sort of the point of the scene with Rack, I thought, to make Willow realize what a horrific thing she had done to Tara. I'm not saying that Rack and Willow are the same. In fact I am sure they are wholly different; I know that Willow is basically good. That doesn't change the similarity of these two actions.

---

It did seem, though, that Willow voluntarily submitted to what Rack did. She was somewhat misled (by Amy) and naive, and Rack took advantage of her, but she went there willingly and she let him touch her. And of course once she was addicted she kept going back for more. You could certainly argue a strong parallel to statutory rape though, taking advantage of someone's "innocence" to bypass "informed consent" on their part; Willow didn't really know what she was getting into until it was too late. Noting of course that Willow was an adult, but unaware of the full implications of what Rack intended with her.

quote:

---

Frankly I find the comparison of Willow doing the forget spells and "Tara l[ying] about her potential demon heritage and still sl[eeping] with Willow" ludicrous and offensive.

---

I didn't understand that comparison either. There seems to me to be a big difference between merely refraining from mentioning something prejudicial (it's not like Tara was fronting as this nice person when she was actually some evil bitch; her alleged part-demon nature really didn't affect who she was whom Willow fell in love with; she wasn't hiding a criminal past), and actively and secretly tampering with something the other person implicitly trusts you to respect (say, draining their bank account that they gave you joint access to). It's not like the alleged demon would infect Willow if they slept together, either, nor did Tara have any knowledge or real belief that her demon side would pose a danger to Willow or anyone (judging from Family). It might be comparable to not telling your friend(s) you're gay when you go to a conservative school. The potential negative reaction of being told is way out of proportion to how the others are really impacted by it (which is, not much at all).

I think the worst thing Tara did there was to lie about the spell itself, pretending that she was willing to do the spell and that she helped to do so when she actually withheld her help and sabotaged the spell. That prevented Willow from tracking the demon (Polgara, actually Adam?) and could have endangered people relative to the scoobies finding and stopping the demon sooner. That was an active lie, not just passive omission of a mostly irrelevant detail. (Of course the blindness spell in Family was worse still, though partially a mistake that she didn't realize it would blind them to all demons, for surely had she realized that she would not have blinded the demon-hunting scoobies; to do so would probably be worse than the original forget spell.)

As for Warren's fate, he could end up destroying himself like Catherine Madison, Gwendolyn Post, the hyena guy (zookeeper), the german assassins (shot each other), the swim coach, and probably others I'm not immediately remembering. It's probably either that or eventually getting caught by the authorities and going to jail... but for what? Nothing ties him to the murder of Katrina and the trio no longer has the stolen diamond (did the scoobies ever return it, and how?); it'd have to be something new.quote:quote:quote:

[Brynn]

I know what Willow did to Tara was wrong, but I would never compare her actions to Warren. And never associate it with rape either.

But I think I understand what xita is trying to say. Think about it. Tara knew she was going to turn into a demon when she turned 20. She also believed herself to be a demon that needed to be controlled (so perhaps not so nice).

My point? Tara allowed Willow to become involved with her and to fall in love with her -- knowing her family would take her away.

What did she do when her family arrived? She did spell not only on Willow, but the whole scooby gang. A spell that put them all in danger.

Why is this not seen as a violation of Willow's mind? Of allowing her to see (or not see) what Tara wanted?

Others in this thread have implied that Willow needs to be redeemed. I bet no one thought Tara needed redeeming after this spell.

I know Tara did the spell and all of that because she was afraid and all of that. But much of Willow's motivation is based in fear too.

Fear of losing Tara, fear of being a geek -- etc. And remember the first really big fight they had resulted not in make up snuggles -- but with Tara brain sucked.

I am not excusing Willow -- but I would never put her in the same catagory as Warren.

[Zahir]

quote:

---

Originally posted by tommo:
I think Warren is completely without conscience. To me, that's pretty inhuman.

---

Take it from a history geek. That is very, very, very human. Unfortunately.

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[This message has been edited by Zahir (edited March 08, 2002).]quote:

[The Rose]

Tara knows what she did was wrong and felt really horrible about it, and she even offers to leave to make up for her trespass. Willow stopped her before she got very far. Also, Tara has not done anything like that since then.

Willow, on the other hand, has put the Scoobies in danger several times with her naivetee and then her misuse and addiction. Willow does a forget spell then does another one to cover up her last one. One can not possibly equate those two.

------------------
Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[supermus]

And Willow did a spell to keep Tara from being angry with her, and on some level keep Tara from being unhappy. Warren did a spell to make Katrina blow him. One cannot possibly compare the two.

[Kalita]

quote:

---

Originally posted by supermus:
Warren did a spell to make Katrina blow him.

---

And made her lose basically all free will and be subject fully to another's will. However you slice it, that's many degrees worse than having someone forget an evening's fight.

Not that the forget spell is utterly forgivable, it simply doesn't compare.quote:

[xita]

I know rape isn't about sex. I was countering a common arguement from USEnet. But thanks for the education.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited March 08, 2002).]

[tommo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zahir:
Take it from a history geek. That is very, very, very human. Unfortunately.

---

Zahir, what in frilly heck has being a history geek got to do with this? If you're trying to excuse despots in history because they were human don't even start. Adolf Hitler; Josef Stalin; Pinochet; Mussolini; Franco...these people aren't reprehensible because they're human?

If history has anything to teach us, it's that evil exists in humans. And in some humans it's more pronounced than in others.

Don't even begin to try and tell me that Warren's behaviour is human. It isn't. It's evil, unforgiveable and totally unacceptable to this human. Yeah, that's right. I'm a sap for loving my fellow human. I'm so sorry.

------------------
No metaphors...just fucking.quote:

[Zahir]

Ruth, my point was that Warren is human. Sorry--he is. Just like Hitler, Ted Bundy, Pol Poht, etc. All human. Every single one of them. Yep. HUMAN. Not one a genuine alien, a real vampire or an actual supernatural demon in the bunch! Homo sapiens sapiens. Like you. Like me. Like every single other human being on Earth, past and present and future.

That doesn't excuse him. Not even a little bit.

But it is easy, cheap and simple-minded to say (and actually mean) that because someone is vile they somehow aren't human beings. That is a really uncomfortable truth, I know. Looking at the worst our species has to offer and accepting that we are the same stock is one of those truths we like to deny.

Tough. Humans contain within them the full range of human behavior. Idi Amin could have been a Gandhi. He chose not to, via thousands and thousands of individual choices made across a lifetime. And vice versa.

You have misread me. Very, very badly. Insultingly so, and in a public forum. Nor do I accept that my words were so very unclear. Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[Dr.G]

Glad to hear you think Warren is a bad guy, kindly not compare Willow's actions to his any way in the future then, it's insulting.

[tommo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zahir:
But it is easy, cheap and simple-minded to say (and actually mean) that because someone is vile they somehow aren't human beings.

---

I'm sorry. I didn't quite understand your definition of me here. Would you like to repeat this in email perhaps? Or post it in big red bold fonts?

I can't believe you've just called me simple-minded. I think it's very clear to anyone who knows me (and you quite clearly don't) that this is so far off the mark.

Just because I don't agree with your perfect little view of the world. Just because I happen to think Warren is totally inhuman. Just because I happen to know things about Warren that make me feel that way about him. It's my OPINION. And I'm entitled to it; as you are to yours.

I managed to get my opinion across without calling you names, Zahir. Please try to do the same.

quote:

---

You have misread me. Very, very badly. Insultingly so, and in a public forum.

---

Oh well, excuse me for wanting to have a discussion about this. I misread you badly? What, there are now degrees of misreading someone? You either do or you don't; there are no degrees of misreading. Heh heh. Please. So I misread you. Perhaps my answers to the discussion are slightly tempered by the fact that Warren has committed and will commit an unforgiveable crime. I'm sorry if that elicicts a rather more strong response in me than in others.

quote:

---

[Nor do I accept that my words were so very unclear. Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.

---

It's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I am entitled to disagree with that. I have no wish to put words into your mouth but I am pretty angry about being called simple-minded. Heh. Go you Zahir. Insult me, call me names, if that's your response to the discussion. Woo!

I no longer care anymore.

------------------
You know I've been through hell...Joss can't you see, there'll be nothing left of me. You made me believe...quote:quote:quote:

[Lanfear]

And I'm 100% behind Zahir on this one, Adolf Hitler and Ariel Sharon are exactly as much human as Mahatma Ghandi and Florence Nightingale. All 4 of them startet out as an innocent little infant with no views or opinions and lived their lifes and made their choices. Imo, you're view of them as inhuman is making exuses for them, much more then saying they are like us. If you'd said their actions where inhuman vile evil etc, yeah, I'd agree, but they where still all as human as you. And yes, there are degrees of misreading. you can get the gist of the thing, but miss a small detail, and then in the other end there is missing the whole point, and more or less check out where the point is, and then run like hell in the oposite direction.

ps Zahir, wheres that name from? seen it used someplace else.

[This message has been edited by Lanfear (edited March 11, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited March 11, 2002).]