The Strange and Incredible Saga of Willow and Tara

[Kendahl897]

OK..
I think I got the 25% figure by looking at what the ratings ultimately fell to, which was 2.3...Quite a long drop from 3.0 and above.


By the way, as an example of just how bad it got, the ratings for original run eps in season 7 fell to what repeats traditionally garnered during the earlier seasons.


Web Warlock,
I'm really curious. If SMG had been game for another year, would UPN have picked up Buffy for a season 8 ? And if so, would it also have been contingent on the ratings improving?

[erickvoshel]

Hello ths is Erick Voshel, author of the Strange and Incredible Saga of Willow and Tara on BtVS. I hope you are enjoying my article. First of all, I want to apologize to my readers for the length of the report. I just had a lot to say. Second: To set the record straight on the number of pages it isn"t 80, but 37 pages. I know that's still long, but like I said, I had a lot to say. I hope that I have reopened a door for dialouge on this issue again and it appears I have done so. Because this is an issue that goes way beyond Amber Benson, Joss Whedon, or Buffy. This about how all Gays and Lesbians are treated on television and the facts say they are treated rather badly on both TV and the movies. My point is: Do you see any TV shows today attempting to do anything remotely simallar to what Joss did? No. In fact there are are fewer gay characters now than there ever were before. There is an article that illistrates this point perfectly: Here is the link: http:www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14454618/from/ET/ Any way I hope that those of you who havn't read the report will do so. So so long for now and keep up the good work.

[Garner]

For me, at the end of the day, the wasted potential of Willow and Tara was so great, and that's what still hurts. That and the fact that half the season was wasted in the stupid breakup storyline and the instant they get back together Tara is killed. That suddenness was too much and way too manipulative for her death to have any real emotional impact (other than great anger at those responsible for the storyline).

I still don't buy the artistic freedom crap that is used to defend Josswad. Yes, he could do what he wanted, it was HIS show. BUT, just like he couldn't kill Buffy permanently due to contracts with SMG, just like he couldn't show to much W/T love scenes due to the censons, and just like he had to change the Double Meat job because advertisers didn't like it, he shouldn't have killed Tara as W/T were too important and unique. His precious artistic freedom was an illusion, and I believe now he just wanted to mess with and shock the fans. He wanted to yank our chains and killing Tara was the best way to do that. Dark Willow was another way to do that. He could have done all that and brought Tara back in the end with a wish from Anaya or countless other ways. That would have helped allow him the story he wanted, the shocks he wanted and still kept W/T together in the end. Hell, there were many ways he could have gone, but he didn't. And it was socially irresponsible of him. What happened shouldn't have. At least he paid the ratings price for it. And it is sad that Willow and Tara's relationship is still unique for network television.

Garner

[DaddyCatALSO]

Trying to avoid O-T- as much a s I can, I'll say that eventually it seemed the only way Joss could think to have an impact on viewers was thru major character death. No matter how much more effective it could have been otherwise, with at least some of the choices.Whether this was due more to burn-out or more to a previously hidden lack of imagination (both of which I think were operating) I don't pretend to be able to judge.

[erickvoshel]

Now that I have my article published on the web, all I need to do is have Amber herself read it. Wouldn't be great if she did?! What do the Kittens think? I know it's flat out impossible, but I would really appreciate any ones' thoughts you may have n this matter.

[DaddyCatALSO]

Erick;you can always do like I did with my song lyric "Blinded by the Ashes;" run off hard copies and send 'em as fan mail.

[erickvoshel]

Thanks for the tip, but that's just not my style!

[Hemiola]

Just finished reading the 4t part of your excellent essay.

I hate to be an old fuddy-duddy, but I really do think it would help the credibility of your essay if you would correct some of the spelling mistakes that appear throughout the composition.

Unless, of course, you are aiming to prove the truth of Tara's famous remark about peoples' spelling on the Internet.

[helpfulinformationperhaps]

amen WW - and heck - we can all pat ourselves on the back for speaking the truth and letting UPN/hollywierd know just what we thought of whedon's choices

in fact - I can't help but feel that panels like the one jane just sat on - are a direct outgrowth of the tara backlash - when there is that much net buzz followed by media coverage and ratings free fall for a "signature" show - hollyweird takes notes

[erickvoshel]

Thanks I have already gone back and corrected the spelling errors of which you speak. I keep the original report saved on on my computer in my "Documents" section. Thank you for the heads up though. What part of my essay did you like?

[Kendahl897]

amen WW - and heck - we can all pat ourselves on the back for speaking the truth and letting UPN/hollywierd know just what we thought of whedon's choices



And don't forget about the story we heard about Joss getting his butt chewed out by UPN BECAUSE of the falling ratings and the backlash they were getting, which included e-mails being sent to every UPN affiliate. .

[Hemiola]

Erick--I particularly liked the fact that you emphasized that there were many possible alternative means by which Whedon could have achieved his ends and either (a) not killed Tara at all or (b) given Tara's death some heroic or meaningful dimension, which wouldn't have seemed so much like a betrayal.

As an example of (a), he could have taken a cue from the plot of the famous novel "Lorna Doone". That is to say, Willow could think that Tara is dead, go on her vengeance jag, and then find out that Tara's wounds were, in fact, not fatal.

As for (b), there are any number of possibilities: a good a example would be if both Willow and Tara looked out the window and saw Warren arrive, but only Tara saw him wave and point his gun, at which point Tara pushes Willow away from the window, heroically taking the bullet herself.

The way Whedon ultimately did it, it simply comes off as a mean, immature, "swipe" at fans of both the relationship and Tara herself.

[erickvoshel]

I appreciate the fact that you liked the alternetive storyline, but it's important for you to know that these alternetive ways were not of my own thinking. That honor belongs to Robert Black. I just took what he said and expanded on it. But not without putting my own thoughts in there as well. In fact, much of what I wrote is taken from the essays of Robert Black. Like with the alternetive storyline, I tooks his arguements and expanded on them. In case you want to read Robert Black's essays which are on the same subject just go to the Lesbian Cliche FAQ on this site.

I just wanted to thank all my dear readers for all their wonderful comments and imput and in making this such a hot topic again. To have my report finally be published and widely read on the Net is a dream come true for me :. So thanks!

[erickvoshel]

Hello. Allow me to reintroduce myself. I'm Erick Voshel. I wrote a report called, "The Strange and Incrediable Saga of Willow and Tara on BtVS" which took a detailed look at the controversy surrounding Tara's death on Buffy. You know it's funny. Just when I thought I was through disscussing this subject, it comes back up again, due to the fact that Joss is now officially writing Season Eight of Buffy in comic-book form.
Does this mean that Joss could correct what was clearly a mistake of epic proportions and bring our favorite wicca back to life in a dramatic way? While it is an intriquing possibility, I find it highly unlikely. Any thoughts on this?

[Katharyn]

Frankly I couldn't care what he does to make a few more bucks. I wouldn't buy it no matter what was in it. I wouldn't dignify it by reading it for free. I treated that whole f*cked episode it was done in the same way so what would a comic offer me now?

The fact he did what he did in the manner it was done is enough for me. Other than this board I haven't touched anything connected to Whedon in any way since 'Entropy' first aired and so it will stay.

Tara and Willow belong to the fans now, on this board in the main. He announced he was done with them in the most final, and pointless, way possible and laughed about how clever he was as he did it.

As for what he will do? Whatever it is it will be to feed the ego that is Whedon. To prove himself right, to validate his genius and demonstrate once more that he is a superior being. His only quandary will be whether to "prove" his detractors "wrong" or to "enhance" the "brilliance" of his storytelling by continuing to mess with anyone who disagreed with him. I know which I'd bet on.

Anyone want to play spot the sarcasm in the statement above?

Who knew I was still so bitter? Hmm, must be something about Whedon that brings it out of me.

Katharyn

[dlline]

Here's my $0.02....

I think if Joss has a brain in his head, and I still believe that he does, that he can see the impact that Tara's resurrection would have on comic sales. I mean, he shattered all of us into little tiny pieces with about 4 seconds of film, but he also has the power to bring us back. I'm planning on getting the comic series as it's released, but I have to admit that if I knew his plans didn't include a happy ending for the Wiccans, I probably wouldn't spend a dime.

He's being pretty silent on the issue, and I don't know if that's to prolong the drama or just to avoid dealing with his plans until he sees how sales are. I know I sound kinda jaded, but I'm just so used to things not working the way they should.

Not like he would listen, but I think a lot of us would support his effort financially if we knew his plans included a reunited Willow and Tara. Again, just my 2 cents.

[Miramel]

dlline, i'm right there with ya- i've never been much of a comic person, but i do intend to get them as they come, 100% out of hope for tara's ressurection. gotta say, though, for all the hope i'm spewing, i'm really not too sure- and if i had to deal with another dissapointment in the form of no tara, well, that would just suck.

[Kendahl897]

Well, Joss just got kicked off (ie., FIRED) from the Wonder Woman film, so he's really not as clever as he thinks, now is he? Can you repeat after me, KARMA IS A BITCH.
As for the comic, I'm sure there are those out there who will buy it (hell, even 30% still like Bush) b/c face it, there are some who worship at his feet. But seeing to what the series fell in its last year ratings wise, 2.3, I can't see it making a huge splash. Serioulsy, 25% of their audience walked away, and if I remember correctly, Joss even got a slap down by the UPN honchos.
But for a comic, I dont have any idea what numbers you need to circulate in order to b deemed "successful". Now if you look at the sales of the W/T merchandise, logic would dictate that there is still a huge market out there for them as a couple. Joss would be dumb to spit in that market' s face. Bu then Joss is also an arrogant ass who likes to stick it to his fans. So hopes wise, I wouldn't get mine too high.
As a earlier poster said, read fanfic here. Its alot better and we get spicier sex scenes with happy endings.

[Dana5140]

Say what you will, Joss was not fired from WW. The studio and he reached an agreement to end his involvement with the film; it was mutually agreed to by them both. That's just reality, and things like that happen every day in Hollfywood. I honestly don't see this as a significant development; it just means that they had differeing views for the movie, and I would guess it revolves around making blockbusters with big names versus making smaller scale but more personal movies. Nothing more.

But the issue of the comic is much more intriguing. The recent interview with Whedon on MTV.com had some interesting things in it. For one, they had quotes from Amber Benson- now, to be honest, this makes little sense. Amber hasn't been involved with Buffy for 5 years now, is at best a C actor in terms of recognition outside this and other W/T boards, was on the outs with Whedon, and I can't see much reason to quote her for a comic being developed by another person. In that interview, there were comments made about "intruiging developments." I think this comic is as much about Willow (whom I think is a more popular character than Buffy) as it is Buffy. And further, Whedon acknowledged that Anya was going to remain dead but not necessarily absent. He also noted that both Spike and Angel were going to make limited appearances, that Faith would have a 4-issue arc, and that Buffy, Dawn, Xander, Giles and Willow were in play. So what does this mean? Wnat really grabbed me here was that the real 500 pound gorilla in the room is not Anya, nor Andrew, nor Dawn or Faith; the real gorilla is Tara. And of that there was utterly no mention. Now, before anyone says, well that just proves he isn't going to do anything, to me I read it just the opposite. Why Amber? Why no comment on Tara when everyone wants to know about her? Why comments on "intriguing developments"? To me, this is like Michael Caine in Hannah and Her Sisters, "I have my answer."

Meantime, I have jetwolf. And Garner. :-)

[Lucian]

I agree with everything Katharyn said. Why would I allow myself to get burned by him again?

I'm reminded of a saying: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me

He can do comics, cartoons, movies or TV shows, whatever. I do not care. I won't be watching anything he ever does again. If I want W/T goodness, I have the seemingly endless supply of fics on Pens. That's good enough for me.

[Katharyn]

I have to admit that Whedon being replaced on WW is business as usual in Hollywood. Oscar winning writers and directors are replaced all the time. Things just happen that way. I'll also admit to a certain satisfaction in him not getting what he wanted.

Having thought about this - curse you for making me think about you Whedon - I suspect that his objectives here will be two fold. 1) To tell a "cool" story. Why? Because it needs to sell and to prove he can still do so in the BTVS world. And 2) to square everything he's wanted to.

Now that might mean bringing Tara back. It might...

And yet I can't seem to care. I don't need a 'canon' stamp to have T/W back together somewhere that's not on screen. If he was going to do that then he had ample story threads to do it before the end of SSux. But Pens has that each and every day. It's not it being 5 years later. It's that he did it at all to be 'cool' and that he laughed about it.

What I'm absolutely certain of is that some people who desperately want to like Whedon and his work (and probably thought S6 and S7 weren't really all that bad or even quite good) will herald this as what BTVS would have been if only the nasty people hadn't turned against the great God Joss.

Not so.

In a comic he has absolute control within whatever parameters he needs to sell issues. All "actors" are available. Their scruples are irrelevant. Anything he's thought up since then can be used. He can rewrite the history of what things would have been at a stroke and there's no network saying 'thou shalt write for 14 year old boys who like wrestling.' In fact he's probably free to be even darker than the show. But none of that makes it anymore S8 than the fanfic dealing with the same things.

Also the medium is not the same. A story in a novel is not the same as a story in a film. Nor film the same as TV. Nor TV the same as a comic.


And, of course, if he did bring Tara back - that'd only give him the chance to f*ck things up once again. If he was petty enough to bring her back to prove us "wrong" then he'd certainly be petty enough to do that and then do something else we're guaranteed not to like. After all, how "cool" would that be? A twist!

Let's face it we all liked Whedon and BTVS once. But he lost that a long time ago for me. Enjoy this if you are able to - I won't be there. And I won't be reading his fans telling me how it's the way things would have been if only we'd continued to support him. That his genius will out in the end.

Better shows than his have been cancelled but not many deserved it more.

Katharyn

PS On the subject of Amber's quotes about this... I wouldn't read too much into it. She's more available than most of the other cast these days, has a background in comics of her own now and - not unreasonably - has cause to thank Joss for what he did for her career. I am sure she probably feels she let him down when she refused to come back as a monster to taunt Willow in order not to upset her fans. I think, if asked, she'd probably say 'yeah, I'll be happy to comment on that,' whereas most of the other cast would have to say 'my agent will get back to you.'

[the hero factor]

A world of word to everything in your post, Kathryn.

I have no interest in the comic. Even if he brings Tara back. Even if he completely erradicates s6 and 7, and starts over again from the end of The Gift.

Guy had his chance to let me know what happened to these characters (and I mean all of them, not just Willow and Tara) after s5, and he blew it. Spectacularly. I'll stick with fanfic and my imagination, thank you very much.

[erith]

Even if he brought Tara back and there was a happy reunion with Willow would it stay that way? I doubt it.

For anyone intending to buy the comic but wary about what he might do to Tara or Willow it'll eventually be released as a trade paperback giving you plenty of time to find out what he does or even if it's any good. From the couple of pages of art I've seen it looks like a typical superhero comic not Buffy.

[DaddyCatALSO]

Let me say upf ront, I don't imagine Joss cares any visibled egree about individual fans. But insofar as he does, he probably takes more staisfaction in alienating someone to the extent they boycott his output and thus less satisfaction in turning somebody into a casual viewer/reader.
Since thta what he's done to me, I'll probably follow htis but,w ell, wont ' expect much. And take some satisfaction in how he *would* feel about it if he felt anything even tho he doesn't.

[Willowtree252]

All the Willow and Tara I need is right here on this board with all my fellow kittens and friend,s I have made we have a wonderful world that Joss can,t touch. The storys and writers on this board are awesome and I feel we are true to Tara so here is where I will stay.

[kisstheviolets]

i like willow and tara as much as the next kitten, but when i read a lot this whining about things that happened to FICTIONAL characters on a show that's been off the air for almost FOUR years i start to wonder what's wrong with you guys. the jabs at joss and the bizarre conspiracy theories you all seem to obsess over (right, he cares about you all enough to take intentional "swipes" at you by creating entire storylines around things just to piss you off). it's a miracle none of you are choking on that sense of entitlement.

while i found the death of tara upsetting and disappointing (and i'm not arguing that it was perhaps some uninspired and lazy writing) i find it particularly insulting to suggest that the lesbian characters deserved some sort of special treatment (and yes, the lack of which is exactly what you all are pissed about) on a television show that was all about loss, hard lessons, and raw deals. for everyone.

no one in the buffyverse got a happy ending. none of the characters escaped tragedy. and that was what was so powerful about such a silly little show. it wasn't "full house", all nicely resolved with puppies and kisses by the end of the hour. there was loss on major levels for everyone: loss of love, innocence, parents, eyeballs(!), and yes, loss of life itself (and to remind you, tara wasn't the only well-liked character to bite the proverbial dust in btvs or ats). that's life. in the buffyverse and the real world. and what's wrong with that? it's a television show! angst is good for the soul. people, who are not you, were paid to create this show and you all clearly liked it at one point. hate whedon as you will, but he's the one that created the characters you seem to worship to the point of hysteric idolatry. he can't be all bad.

this is not to say that i don't understand where a lot of this anger comes from. i do. but listen to yourselves. joss whedon is not telling you how to do your job or holding long bitter grudges when you screw up at said job (though it'd be hilarious if he was righteously indignant because you got his order wrong at the waffle house ten years ago - "I said scattered, not smothered! You planned this didn't you? You hate chubby balding men so much that you couldn't bear the thought of me having one pure moment of happy eggness. I'll never eat at a Waffle House again you jerkwad. Take that!")

whatever. i will get flamed and the zealots will continue on. watch out chicken littles, the sky is falling. and it's only landing on lesbians.

[Rocktoddy]

Wow.

I kinda get what you're saying. Don't really appreciate the tone of your post on our beloved Kittenboard (see? I won't flame ya and I think the zealots have long gone), which is supposed to be W/T safe haven, but, well emotions can run high sometimes and everyone's opinions are valid, so I'll overlook that.

On to my post...

Somehow it seems like 5 years ago we all made this agreement that Joss is a grade A asshole and decided to stick with it.
Speaking for myself, I have certainly lost my rabid bitterness over time and found that the story of W/T was long but over (duh!) here on DCP. Saying I kinda "forgave" Josswad is maybe a bit too much, cuz I will NEVER forget what he made us go through, but yeah, I'll admit maybe the tone of our spite is a bit over the top after all these years, when some of the initial hurt has passed.

Yet I couldn't help but shreek a little with joy at hearing that Joss lost the WW deal. I believe in karma, what you give is what you get returned (ahem, a bit of Savage Garden still stuck in my head, 'scuse me)!

And just to make the tone of this thread a little lighter, check out this hilarious Wonder Woman YouTube vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ_zModF-RI

As for the comics, I'm still a sucker for Willow, any kinda Willow- even if it's NotWillow S7 (the wonder of Aly can do miraculous things), so I guess I will be semi-following it, if I can get it somewhere off of the Net (Hell No will I be giving Joss more of my well-earned money...).

[Katharyn]

Well since I'm the one who probably caused much of KTV's response, I'll make a reply of my own.

All the arguments about Joss, what he intended and what he achieved are held in the Lesbian Cliche thread so I am not going to rehash them here or else we'll just end up with another version of that. However since it was so specifically mentioned I will bring this one up again. Whedon claimed and accepted an awful lot of credit for a) showing strong women on TV and b) the T/W relationship. When in S6 he (amongst other things) made Buffy a willing victim of an abusive relationship and sacrificed one half of the T/W relationship not for any noble purpose (look for example at nature of Doyle's end - after about 5 episodes - in Angel compared to Tara's) but because he thought a Dark Willow 'looked cool' thats having his cake and eating it too especially following the scene it did.

As I've gone on record with many times I objected to the whole of S6 and it's treatment of all characters. So no, I'm not claiming privilege. Would I be happy if (for example) Tara had died saving Willow's life? No. Would I be happier? Most definitely. And given more people come back from the dead than actually died (main characters) in the show it's not reaching to have hoped for such a correction for Tara during the run of the show. Forgive me if I'm not interested in him selling me something four years later that might or might not do so (which was the point of the question.)

Do I believe he cares what we think or he wrote/will write a storyline to get at us? No. However he's stated many times he is aware of what fans think and seeks to shock them. The impression I got from commentaries waaay before W/T was that the more someone liked a thing, the more they needed to have that torn away. I believe that is established from the first episode. Sometimes it's for story purposes, sometimes not - sometimes it's what he thinks we need. Well, he's a big boy. He can take the criticism that comes with the kudos and I am happy to give him kudos. So the other is my right too - not that he'll ever be aware of it from here. I don't feel the need to crash his fan boards and start protesting on them. But here... here, I get to say that stuff and not have to apologise for it. I don't think two such posts in four years is overly obsessive (both in the last few days)

I don't recall saying I never liked and admired Whedon. In fact in this very thread I said "Let's face it we all liked Whedon and BTVS once." And when I say "Better shows than his have been cancelled but not many deserved it more" thats for the general state of S6 which essentially threw away anything uplifting or empowering for anyone or anything apart from a crayon (or so I'm told.) By that point the show deserved to bite the dust and I'm happy to concede thats maybe because Joss took his eye off the ball and went onto new projects. But in the end he has the responsibility that comes with acclaim and the money he was being paid.

Torturing your characters to the extent he did in S6 is, IMHO, what you do when you have nothing else left. For five years he managed to create drama and tension but within the boundaries that people still enjoyed watching. The ratings in S6 and S7 would suggest that was no longer the case. Could it be the decison to push it in a tragic, dark direction left fans feeling cold? Maybe, maybe it was just the new network and timeslot.

But ultimately why watch a TV show? Don't we want to enjoy it? I don't recall enjoying much in any of S6 (including the musical.) If the ratings are a guide, many others seemed to feel the same.

If I'm still bitter then boo hoo. I'm sure he won't miss the few tenths of a cent he won't get from me. But it's the only real way I have to express my dissatisfaction. If I wasn't still on this board, still writing fiction in Whedon's universe I'm sure I wouldn't even care. But then he wouldn't be getting those few tenths of a cent off me in that case either.

I don't give my money to McDonalds. I don't give it to the chinese restaurant that gave me food poisoning (though all other chinese restaurants get more of my money than they should.) And I don't give it to Joss Whedon either - which was the point of Erick's question.

Well, that was longer than it needed to be and look, I don't think I insulted or flamed anyone. Hmm, yay me. So I will just say this, anyone who is on this board four years later must have maintained an interest and emotional investment. I would think that for everyone here it's an appreciation of all things W&T. For some people it includes an element of bitterness at how that ended and thats just as valid an emotional response as any other. Maybe not as healthy as letting go entirely - which I choose not to do as I still want to write fic around the characters - but still valid.

Katharyn

[Dana5140]

I'll just add one thing. The person I blame for this more than anyone is not Joss, it's Marti Noxon. It is not just what happened to Willow and Tara, it is what happened to everyone on the show- Buffy gone to domestic troubles (bad "mothering" of Dawn, no money, meaningless jobs, and broken water pipes), Xander walking away from Anya for no real reason, Willow and her "drug" abuse, Dawn and her kleptomania, Spike and his neediness and attempted rape, and the trio of idiots that mocked fanboys all over the world. And Giles gone away- look, no adults! Leaving Tara as the sole voice of reason and empathy for the season, but of course, for much of it she was apart from Willow. And they had to sacrifice her just to return the characters to a semblance of what they had been before Marti got her hooks into the show. It was not just that W/T was destroyed that season, it was that everyone was. Joss was an absentee boss that year, busy with Angel and Firefly, and Marti ran the show. I have a great sense of schaudenfreude as I watch her career post Buffy, going from here to there. Now, a boss is still a boss, but most people I know who watched Buffy from the beginning hate S6 above all else, even those who were not W/T fanatics, because it was like new Coke as opposed to old- let's make the big bad real life. To this day, I can't tolerate Andrew at all, and I can't watch that season. I just think the writers, under their new leadership, began to believe they could not do wrong. To this day, only Jane Espenson and David Fury have ever said maybe they did; no one else has. It's one of the reasons I continue to like Jane Espenson; she seems to get it.

(PS. I don't shop at Wal Mart, don't eat at McDonald's and won't patronize Denny's or Cracker Barrel). :-)

[Knock yourself out]

I agree with Dana in that I think the worst of seasons six and seven was more Marti Noxon's fault than Joss's because she was the one directly in charge.
She was, in my opinion, responsible for many of the poorest episodes of BtVS (most notably Bad Eggs and Dead Man's Party). I can only think good things of her because she wrote The Wish and New Moon Rising and was responsible for casting Amber Benson.