If you don't enjoy something why would you bother watching it? I also only watch the earlier seasons of The West Wing, Alias, Millenium and Joan of Arcadia. It seems sensible to me to stop watching something you don't like.

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Live in my house. I'll be your shelter. Just pay me back with one thousand kisses.

Here's some less than inspiring statistics from a recent MORI study commisioned by Stonewall.

The study analysed 168 hours of TV content and found:

Gay and lesbian people were portrayed in a realistic and positive manner for just 6 minutes

They were portrayed in a demeaning and derogatory manner for 32 minutes.

Over half the references to gay people were intended as jokes

This is even worse when you consider the fact that the study also showed that peoples attitudes can be affected more by TV than by school, friends, politics or religion.

You can read more about the study at http://www.stonewall.org.uk/tunedout

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02/28/2007

Hi girls! I'm new here!

The FAQ is well-written and persuasive but shouldn't it be updated in light of season 7 and the K*nnedy character? (She lived, they had sex scenes, ect.) I know it was a half-assed attempt to make up for killing Tara, but at least they tried. ME was originally planning to introduce a male lover for Willow in season 7, so it could have been a lot worse.

Season 7 and she-who-must-not-be-named are not allowed on this board, vivian.

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Frivolous Views

But the FAQ is intended for a wider audience, and now some parts of it are inaccurate.

Please read the board FAQs.



My understanding of this particular rule says that if what you have to say relates directly to the discussion at hand, anything after the last 10 minutes of Seeing Red is allowed in this thread only. But if it isn't directly related, it is still considered Off Topic.

But, please, still read the board FAQs. It will save a lot of trouble in the future.

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Frivolous Views

Well, the FAQ seems to say that this thread is more about lesbianism in entertainment in general rather than W/T.

Look, I'm a lesbian who loves W/T and Buffy/Faith (which exists only in my warped fantasy world), and the character of let's call her Jezebel was poor substitute for Tara. But if W/J was a defeat for W/T lovers, it was a small victory for lesbianism on television in general. Also, it established that Willow was girl-exclusive from then on. Some people wrote Tara off as an anomaly, and hoped Willow would go back to men. These people also blame the Kittens by name for the fact that she didn't.

Perhaps there needs to be a Lesbian FAQ section for the Litterbox where stuff that happend post SR can be discussed. A lot of newer people don't even know there is a spot that includes post SR stuff for those who are willing to consider that portion of the show.

Garner

Me, for instance, and I'm not really that new....I lurked for years and haven't heard of a Litterbox, Garner! Can we have a link, or a clue or something? Is there a codeword and a secret handshake?

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"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from." - Jodie Foster

This thread is for discussing the cliche in all its forms.

The Litterobx was created back in the day as a private place to discuss issues relevant to board members in a safe, troll-free forum.

At the time, membership was open to any kitten who wanted in and was willing to follow the rules. It was a limited membership and has not been open for a long time. No new members are being accepted. The place has outlived its usefulness by now. It may not remain open forever.

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- - - - - - - - - - -
moliendo café

Thank you, Xita

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"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from." - Jodie Foster

Miss Shoe, do I get a kiss for this

A

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Kindness is a language which the deaf can hear and the blind can read. - Mark Twain
If you can’t see the bright side of life, polish the dull side.

i watch Sin City last night and reliezed the killed the lesbian... cliche much...


sorry i watch that movie like 5times now and havnt paid much attetion to who dies or not... their just a lot of sexy topless ladies in it

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Church: I didn't want to mess with the timeline.
Caboose: Time...line?
Caboose:*sighs*Time isn't made of lines! It is made of circles. That is why clocks are round

I'm not sure if this totally fits into the cliché, but I'm watching a movie right now (a very B class, probably went straight from cinema to video in one day type thing.) about a psychotic doctor who genetically manipulates the pregnancies he implants in women.

There's a lesbian couple in it. In which one of the women gets pregnant with the modified foetus, and the pregnant woman goes insane and kills her lover. And in the begining it shows them running a birthing class, and portrays them as almost 'man hating crazy feminists'
While the story doesn't completely focus on the couple, and there's angst and such with other couples in it, as far as I can tell none of the others go crazy and try to kill each other,

The film is called The Unborn, and was released in 1991. I found it on imdb http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103157/ if anyone is interested.

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How do you do? How does it feel to be so high? And are you happy? Do you ever cry?

I have seen that flick.

It strikes me less of a cliche and more of just bad writting.
The deal is it wasn't that she was gay that she became an insane murderess, but because of the mutant kid. All the other women (but the star) who went to the same clinic ended up the same way.

At least that's my take.

Warlock

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Web Warlock, web.warlock@comcast.net
Visit my Willow and Tara page! http://timbrannan.blogspot.com/p/willow-tara.html
Tara: "My whole life has been 'Tara, don't use your magic.' 'Tara, hide your powers.' 'Tara you will scare someone.' But you tried to hurt and then kill Willow. So maybe it is time I showed everyone just how powerful I am."
- The Dragon and the Phoenix, Episode 7: The Road to Hell

True. The movie wasn't exactly a work of genuis.

So it's probably nothing more than bad writing in a badly scripted movie.

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How do you do? How does it feel to be so high? And are you happy? Do you ever cry?

The irony is that because of the huge backlash generated by the death of Tara, ME thought they could appease lesbian fans by introducing a new GF. Judging by the ratings though, it had just the opposite effect, as their ratings then sunk to the low 2's. which in the previous seasons were what repeats would garner. Is that the only thing that hurt ratings? Undoubtedly no, but it was a huge part of it. I myself was a Neilsen household who never watched again, as were others. Give up steak for dog food, and be grateful for it? Fact is, ME screwed up, and they paid the ratings piper for it. They said people who get angry always threaten to quit watching but they never do. But, oh yeah, they do.
As far as what ME might have planned with Willow, I take everything they say with a grain of salt, as Joss was very good at making up stories after the fact to suit his purposes or deflect criticism. For example, blaming SMG for no season 8. Does anyone really think that UPN was going to pay that much money for a show that had sunk that low in the ratings for them. Hell, the WB wouldn't when they were at the high 3's. UPN is going to for a show pulling in numbers like 2.3? Not bloody likely.

I think one of the other major factors in the fall of Season 7, is that eventually TV shows become stale. Although they're still entertainting, the stories do get a little reptitive and boring, and sometimes more ridiculous and stupid (as was the case with Charmed I believe). I feel Buffy was at it's writing best between seasons 3 and 5. And though I liked the last season, it seemed a little cheesy and sensationalist. I think Buffy would've been fine to have ended at season 5. Bringinr Buffy back and then sort of showing that she 'had to LIVE and get over it!' was just stupid. That isn't life, tht's a living death to me.

Anyway, I'm rambling, so I'll stop now.

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How do you do? How does it feel to be so high? And are you happy? Do you ever cry?

I always enjoy a good chuckle when the repugs/american_taliban call Hollywood "liberal".
http://www.cinematical.com/2006/09/07/review-red-doors/

Making gays and people of other races invisible is the first step to taking away their rights.

God i feel really little

The first of an (at least) two-part Boston Legal that aired Sunday night is interesting and potentially worrisome. Taken at surface value it looks like-and on that level is-such an obvious example of The Cliche you could almost laugh, hollow though it might be.

In one of the episode's multiple storylines, a young woman is suspected of killing her-recently-ex-girlfriend. She claims innocence-but suffered a blackout after discovering (or killing) the body and before phoning a lawyer.

At the end of the episode, this along with an incidence of screaming in the office and some background information obtained from her therapist has caused Alan Shore to sadly conclude she's insane.

Meanwhile, the woman the deceased woman left her for seems weirdly unresponsive to the loss-she mouths pieties about love but does so in a detached, almost formal way. Later we learn that the dead woman hand-wrote a new will just a week before, leaving this new girlfriend everything.

That's one dead lesbian for sure, and two possible insane and/or evil ones. So why do I say this is only potentially worrisome? Well, part of it admittedly is because I like Boston Legal and don't want to see it fall into the old trap.

This episode was written by series creator David E. Kelley, so for better or for worse, it is what Boston Legal is meant to be. And he seems to be setting The Cliche up so blatantly that I have to/want to believe it's misdirection. Comic blowhard Denny Crane and a TV commentator both verbalized the gay=insane/evil belief system. Experience tells me we're in for one of Kelley's patented Alan Shore jury summations.

One of the reasons I like Boston Legal is that it is, for lack of a better term, "liberal Hollywood" at its best. Some of the speeches are practically Communistic by popular network TV standards-a fact which has caused ABC/Disney to lean on the producers once or twice.

Also, in its first season BL already did an episode that featured a lesbian couple in one of the cases and at the end of the episode, neither were dead, insane, or evil. The episode had some fun with them-but for once the fun was rarely if ever at the lesbians' expense.

Rather, it was had by contrasting the delight Alan Shore took in the case with the extreme discomfort felt by his square colleague Brad. As it happens, there's a short clip from that episode on YouTube that shows what I'm talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRmzGLhgHv8

So maybe I've got blinders on, in which case you may expect to see me hanging my head in shame on Tuesday night, when this story will be continued.

But for the moment I just want to call it potentially worrisome...but definitely interesting.

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Ben

House: "Another life saved by girl-on-girl action."

Ben,

Had it TiVoed so I watched both episodes back to back.

I'll get into spoiler area in a bit, but decided to give my own, very non-Alan Shore summation. It seems DEK is very aware of The Cliche and even uses some of the characters to emphasize it. BUT in the end he gives us one of those pattened DEK twists.

Here is the score card.


Despite all of this I don't feel this episode quallifies as an example, but doesn't quite hit the mark either. B+ area.

In someone else's hands, say someone far less clever, less successful and has to pay the bills by sluming writing for comics now, this would have turned out much different.

BTW This episode and this discussion did get me thinking. If you are a lesbian and in trouble then the law firm of Crane, Poole and Schmidt is the best choice for you since they are batting 1000 in aquitals in representing gays and lesbians. Even Brad and Denny, ultra-republicans they are, do good.

Warlock

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Web Warlock, web.warlock@comcast.net
Visit my Willow and Tara page! http://timbrannan.blogspot.com/p/willow-tara.html
Tara: "My whole life has been 'Tara, don't use your magic.' 'Tara, hide your powers.' 'Tara you will scare someone.' But you tried to hurt and then kill Willow. So maybe it is time I showed everyone just how powerful I am."
- The Dragon and the Phoenix, Episode 7: The Road to Hell

Hey Web,



B+ sounds right to me too. Boston Legal has done better cases, but there have also been far worse examples of The Cliche, so in the end it's something of a wash.

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Ben

House: "Another life saved by girl-on-girl action."

Man i am so angry right now.

I've read this whole thread and a few other related ones and you know what.

Your taking this way too far.

Yes, tara died in a cliche, yes, the writers mislead us, this is all true. But my opinion is, so what?

It certainly hasn't ruined the relationship for me and willow wasn't 'left with no chance for happiness'.

If everyone hadn;'t kicked off so much at the time chances are Amber Benson wouldn't of felt like she shouldn't come back and we would of still had willow and tara. Yes i know they wanted to bring her back evil, but you know what i would fuc*ing love that, anything over she who will not be named. It would of been great, she would of been evil and tara being the most gentle charecter on buffy it would of been shocking - good tv! But then she would be back for real and we'd have willow and tara again.

Your putting words into my mouth and loads of other W/T fans when you talk about lesbian willow and tara fans being so ripped up about the cliche.

I mean i was ripped up when tara died because it meant alot and still means alot to me. But i'm certainly not angry at the amazing and talented team that brought willow and tara to life in the first place. Alot of fans really jumped on joss whedon when he said



But this is so true! And if tara had come back we would of had our happy ending too.

One thing i will get at is she who will not be named, i mean, it was just lame, season 7 was kinda lame compared to the rest of the series in my opinion. I mean yes Amber said no she didn't want to come back and i understand why and i respect that. But Joss has always said restraints force writers to be artistic, willow and you know who weren't a piece of art. But once again i'm lead back to people going too crazy about this, if we hadn't then maybe joss wouldn't of felt so much pressure to get willow a new girlfriend. I remember at the time everyone was saying 'this is so unrealistic, willow was in deep maddening love with tara why on earth has she gone off with the nearist jail bait' and tottally agree but on the other hand people were saying 'willow is going to be left with no chance of happiness, doomed to be loveless and alone. Long live the cliche!'

You see what annoys me? It seems like people just want to take things out on the writters and joss becuase they're sad about losing the relationship and will look for any excuse rather than genuine un-professional conduct on behalf of the buffy team.

I'm sorry because i know people feel strongly about this and some will be upset about what i've said but reading all this thread and others has upset me. All i ask if that people answer me in a civil manner if they do at all if you think i'm out of line.

Long live Willow and Tara, the best lesbian relationship on TV ever. And Long live the people who made it possible. And as for this cliche business, it happens with any minority, the black commuity always complain about the black guy being killed off..., it's because minorities are vunerable and vunerable charecters are more fun to kill off because people want to shield the vunerable chatecters, it's human nature, so when they're killed off, it's more dramatic.

Tara's death happened, it was terrible, i still can't watch it without getting a lump in my throat and that is good TV; if we look at for example the l word (a poor substitute for the buffy show, willow and tara) when dana died i didn't feel upset at all, probably because the l word is crap, the writing is crap, the charecters aren't lovible..., the charecter development is some of the worst i've come across... but anyways, point is when i look at the l word i miss willow and tara even more and it upsets me to see people remembering them by this cliche.

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I'll take back my pinata, it's wasted on you.

You won't go too far wrong with me by criticizing The L Word's characterization and writing. I don't have Showtime right now and I am thankful not to even have the option of enduring their latest sore tooth of a season.

But it doesn't make me miss Willow & Tara more, because Willow & Tara are dead. And the people who "killed" them, and ensured that they will be remembered by the cliche, are Whedon and the writers.

I'd argue that part of the point of complaining when gay, black, or other minorities are killed off is that minorities should not always, or even often, be portrayed as vulnurable.

I shudder to use the dreaded words "role model," but until things change, that's what characters like Tara are (at least in part),. That's one of the many things that made her death so wrenching, I think.

Something I've learned from my x-many years of posting here on and off is that what Tara's death meant to people is varied and many. But I think some of it is resentment at being given a strong, loving relationship between two strong, loving women...and having it arbitrarily yanked away for what many of us consider forced, inorganic reasons.

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Ben

House: "Another life saved by girl-on-girl action."

Well it's worth saying that when tara first died i was very angry at the writers..., because of just that. But i don't feel like willow and tara are dead, i mean i watch buffy regularly still and still enjoy the w/t relationship..

Inorganic reasons... if you mean inorganic in the sense that she was always just a 'plot device' so that willow could be evil because that would be cool and it wasn't worth throwing the relationship away. I kinda get that.., i mean seeing willow evil was fun in a way but not worth the price of the relationship, that brought alot to the vibe of the show, tara was a unique character who earthed alot of situations..

Tara was meant to be just a plot device, there relationship wasn't going to be nearly significant as it became, they orginally planned to kill tara mid season 5, but it kept getting pushed back because joss wanted to do more with it. I think thats why Amber never got into the main credits, because they were never sure how long they were keeping her. If they had known they were going to keep her so long i'm sure they would of put her in the credits, because she certainly wasn't a plot device in the end.

As for Tara being a role model, she is, there's no doubt about it. For me, willow and tara were compete role models, when season 5 was coming out i was in high school and i was really really bullied for being gay, in fact i had to leave in the end, willow and tara i can truly say made me feel better. There relationship was healthy and thats a portrayal of lesbian relationships that is really needed. In this sense again i feel sad it had to end, they had something really special there.

But i'm still not angry at joss and co. Because it was so special, released it was needed and they created the relationship, they sustained it and made tara into more than just a plot device because they released it was special. Maybe it was irresponsible to kill her like that but i just can't bring myself to feel badly done by when if it wasn't for buffy we would of never had willow and tara.

When i think of whedon and writers i think about the good they've done the cliche just doesn't hardly register to be honest...

As for the vunurable thing, maybe i was wrong there, now i think about it more thats not the main issue, thats more kinda sub-subtext , it's there a bit but not as much as i made it out to be. I'm not sure why the gay/lesbian/black character dies more...., because i think more and more your average person thinks minorities to be the same as them...

Oh and i watched the first episode of the new season of the l word last night..., cause marina came back and she's hot! Couldn't miss that. Sadly it's still crappy..., it's a real pity they can't do it better.

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I'll take back my pinata, it's wasted on you.

Obviously I can't, nor would I, speak for anybody but myself, but I do think that, taken as a whole, Buffy was a very good series. It's just the last two seasons that, for me, bring the average down a bit.

I don't particuarly want to rehash the reasons why because I, and I think most people here, have moved on to a greater or lesser extent. It may not seem so when you read a year or two's worth of messageboard entries at once.

But I think, more or less, most of us have made our peace with it. You think Tara's death was all part of the great tapestry, etc. I think it was a mistake on every possible conceivable level, enacting "the dead lesbian cliche" was just one of these. This badly tarnished but did not destroy my view of the series.

There are other responses all along the spectrum but honestly, it was what, almost six years ago now?

PS: I felt guilty watching The L Word for just the hot ladies...sure, for lesbians that may be empowering and affirming...but for a straight man, it's just a whole other cliche.

That being said, Jenny, Shelly whatsername the British chick and Rosanna Arquette are much hotter (I hate Jenny but she's hot)

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Ben

House: "Another life saved by girl-on-girl action."

Yeah six years ago =(

You know the reason i orginally started reading this thread was that i was going to post a thread on the fact that a new buffy comic season 8 is coming out in 2 months (and wow the willow promo pictures look hot!). But then i realised i couldn't because it was against forum policy. So i was going to post a thread complaining that we can't talk about anything post tara dieing.

I mean i have to admit it is a bit mean for people who want to discuss the tv show =/

There use to be a message board for discussing season 7 when it first came out but that didn't last long and there wasn't many members..., i just lurked like i always have

But thats all gone now. I'm suprised that a general buffy sub board wasn't created on here at some point.., but thats besides the point. What i'm saying is it would be alot better in my opinion if there was somewhere on here you could discuss the future of buffy cause i think alot of people are still intrested.

The other buffy boards kinda suck, the guys at whedonesc are all eliteist bast*rds and the others just seem to be dead...

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I'll take back my pinata, it's wasted on you.

Hey, Comfortidor. I hear what you're saying.

One thing to keep in mind when reading the whole Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché FAQ thing is that it was written before S7, so it doesn't respond to issues related to that season and that season's characters.

I think if you could peek into the hearts and minds of the community here, you'd find that, as Ben said, most of us have moved on. It's been a long time. We were upset (rightfully so, I believe), we grieved for Tara and Willow, we raised some excellent issues relating to the portrayal of lesbian characters in the media...and it was years ago.

I understand the frustration a fan of the show can feel here, unable to discuss general BtVS things. Even back in the day, when there were 471,956 active Buffy boards out there, this was still the best place for general discussion of each episode and all the other characters in addition to W/T. But, here's the thing, even when general BtVS stuff was discussed here, the focus of this board was W/T. It has always been that way. The Kitten was conceived as a place for W/T shippers to congregate without having to endure attacks from other fans who hated Tara or thought Willow should be with Oz or who thought it was disgusting to have queers on the show. When Tara died, that focus was tightened even further. More than ever, W/T fans needed a sanctuary, because the general Buffy fandom was not a particularly welcoming place for hurting W/T shippers. (At the same time, we sought to also be a safe place for all LGBT people and our friends to discuss our lives and the issues we face.)

While we certainly do have lots of other topics in many forums, as far as Buffy-related things go, the Kitten = Willow/Tara. We aren't about BtVS, we are about W/T. It's long been our position that if people, including other W/T shippers, want to discuss general Buffy stuff, there is a great big giant internet out there for them to do so. Let us have one place that is truly devoted to Willow and Tara.

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Briefly noted "for the record"...

Sigh. You know, it's not like I was expecting anything fresh from Urban Legend 2 (aka Urban Legend: Final Cut). But, it's in the free movies section of On Demand, and you know how it is.

I got a movie that was as stale and bad-tasting as I exepcted. But with a "delighful" bonus. Eva Mendes in a small, early role as a lesbian with (naturally) the hots for her straight friend (played by a pre-House Jennifer Morrison).

Not that she gets a chance to get much closer to another woman than standing outside of her car. At least not before she fufills the function of all minor characters in films of this type.

The only other mildly interesting thing about this is the way that "lesbian" is virtually treated as a character trait. The girl is a lesbian. That's all we know about her, that's all she is, or certainly the most important part of her.

I don't want to go on too long about this. It's not like you expect John Hughes-level characterization from this movie. But...

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Ben

House: "Another life saved by girl-on-girl action."