The Lesbian Cliche FAQ

[Kieli]

Notice they couldn't even get Chris Golden's name right as the person Amber co-authored the W/T comics with and the writer of other W/T centered Buffy books? Please. Makes me sick.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.

Edited by: Warduke at: 4/17/03 8:18:08 am

[Rob Ty Ut]

Could someone inform me how in "The Bill" if the fall down the stairs kills her. I use to love this show when I was in Australia, but now that i am overseas in a non- Bill country, I cannot see it



Also I saw a movie the other day that was well... I am not sure if it was a chiche or not.



It was called The Killing of Sister George, though in the end the lesbian doesn't die though she is slightly evil (actually she was slightly evil to begin with). And her partner (played by Susannah York - Supermans Mum in the movies) doesn't leave her for a man... she leaves her for another women.



Has anybody else seen it and give me their thought if it fulls into the cliche or not?

Edited by: Warduke at: 4/17/03 8:16:58 am

[tommo]

The ex-wife in The Bill isn't dead. It was touch and go for a while but apparently she's got serious head injuries. That was last night's ep, anyway. The police officer responsible is in deep shit though, heh, and she's losing it fast.



What struck me as interesting though, is that the investigating officers are pinpointing to Brandon, the ex-husband, and saying that he's homophobic because his wife left him for another woman. This incident is being earmarked as somewhat of a hate crime, so it's going to be worth watching how that plays out.



Okay, so the lesbian in a coma has just had the plug pulled on her, and the police got her girlfriend to confess to sending her hate mail. What strikes me as interesting at this point is that there's one woman who works at the police station who knows that the straight woman detective is guilty, but she can't prove a thing.



So we've got one dead lesbian, and the other in deep trouble and guilty of at least one crime against her. But...knowing how UK tv likes to drag these things out, I'm sure that all will be revealed in due course.



However, on an another note, the lesbian police officer arrested a tv weather girl for shoplifting, and has now been accused of sexual assault. The preview for next week has another police officer (who has recently come to terms with his own sexuality) telling her that she "flaunts being gay". So I'm all primed for next week now.

I was being patient, but it took too long. I mean, I miss Buffy, I do. But life shouldn't just stop because she's gone.

Edited by: tommo at: 4/17/03 1:00:13 pm

[themagicpixie]

I was watching The Bill and it was so obvious, even before the woman overheard Gemma referring to a date with a woman (i.e. realised the police officer who had arrested her was a lesbian), that she was going to accuse her of sexual assault. Sorry, but I saw it coming a mile off and for me it was just boring and predictable (especially as Gemma had hardly been in the ep and the scene was pretty much tacked onto the end of the episode).



Usually, it will be a British medical drama like Casualty or Holby City (think of a much calmer, less sexy, more pedestrian "ER") which will have a gay (male) nurse or doctor, and at some point you know they will be accused of sexual assault - someone is going to encourage their son to say said nurse / doctor "touched" him, for some reason of their own...



I have read (in a British tacky tabloid - not an entirely reliable source, it must be said!) that Jane Danson, who plays Gemma in The Bill, hasn't been entirely happy with the way her character has been written. She was assured the role would be a female police officer, who happened to be gay, whereas she feels they have written the part in too sensationalistic a way and gone for the shock lesbian storylines (to be honest I don't mind every storyline re Gemma being about her being gay as there are plenty of "normal" police stories to watch on the show, but hey. I'm tacky like that).

[tommo]

Gemma, the lesbian police officer in The Bill, has just been attacked outside the station and kicked several times in the head by some unknown (as yet) woman. Sigh.

So are you to my thoughts as food to life; Or as sweet-season'd showers are to the ground;
And for the peace of you I hold such strife As 'twixt a miser and his wealth is found.

[themagicpixie]

I did wonder if we were going to see a Dead Gay Character double whammy last night, on (UK channels) BBC 1 and ITV. I was flicking between Ben (the gay midwife) dying on Holby City and the Gemma storyline on The Bill. But we don't know if Gemma will make it yet ... (it would be something to kill off two lesbian / bisexual characters in as many weeks).



Why on earth did that stupid Joel off Neighbours (with a haircut) tell some woman who Gemma was? Is that usual practice in police stations, where anyone could wander in with a gun and a grudge and ask to see an officer?

[tommo]

I wasn't sure if he tipped that woman off exactly; he looked a little dumbstruck when she was questioning him. And who the hell is she anyway?



I missed Holby City last night, thankfully. I think seeing two gay characters in distress would have probably tried my last gay nerve. Heh.



One thing that struck me was the line that the guy police officer gave Gemma about "flaunting the fact that she's gay". That's probably one of the things that struck me. And, lo and behold, she "flaunts" her gayness and then she is brutally attacked. Hm.



However, on a positive note, it was interesting to see the most stereotypically heterosexual police officer be the one who came to Gemma's rescue with the allegations of assault. I thought that was a nice little twist.

So are you to my thoughts as food to life; Or as sweet-season'd showers are to the ground;
And for the peace of you I hold such strife As 'twixt a miser and his wealth is found.

[themagicpixie]

Yes, I liked it that it was Des Taviner who helped Gemma out!



I have no idea who the character is who attacked Gemma. I wonder if we are supposed to know, or if she has just appeared from nowhere as a *plot device*?

[xita]

Heads up to west coast people, apparently more lesbian killers on law and order tonight!

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Si nos dejan buscamos un rincón cerca del cielo

Si nos dejan haremos con las nubes térciopelo


José Alfredo Jiménez

[emma peel]

I saw the ep tonight, xita. All I can say is

I began to wonder when Leanne (??) said "I loved her."

Same old same old.

Janice

[Webberific]

Isn't this like the second time this season for L&O? Sheesh. I saw the ep too, and it also had at least three other well-worn plot devices, what with the extended good cop/bad cop and the psychic-but-not-really thing. Just a badly written, very unoriginal episode all around, plus they have to recycle the cliche yet again? Too bad L&O is resorting to this. Someone should send a copy of the cliche article to Dick Wolf, if he hasn't gotten it already.

[kajo 2000]

The article "The Buffy Factor" (that unionjill30 kindly posted a transcript of on page 17 of this thread) is now up at the Girlfriends Magazine website.

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"I want to be Byron... because I want to date young boys." Amber Benson

[WebWarlock]

Ok.



Unsure where to put this.



I am fairly active in the role-palying game industry. I write, I publish and I play (although less than I used to due to the first 2).



Here is something I have known about, just unsure what to do about it.



Mongoose Publishing. www.mongoosepublishing.com/



This product is the "Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers". Now the full product does poke fun at lesbians in it, but this web addon seems to go beyond that.



www.mongoosepublishing.co...cement.pdf



Exerpts (used in an editorial fashion and not subject to the terms of OGL)



From the Class, Warrior Dyke

Quote:

---

Requirements

Gender: Female (Lesbian)

Other: Unfocussed anger lashing out at a world perceived to be dominated by the masculine gender. Penis envy.



Class Features

The following are all the class features of the warrior dyke prestige class.



Weapon And Armour Proficiencies

The warrior dyke is proficient in all weapons and armour types. Especially sharp pointy ones useful for ‘Bobbeting’.



Racial Enemy

Upon taking a level in this prestige class, the warrior dyke can choose from one of two racial enemies against whom they gain bonuses to attack and damage rolls.

They may choose from either . . .

Worthless Servants of the Phallocentric Oligarchy (men).

Or . . .

Betrayers to The Sisterhood, Servants of the Misogynist Empire (straight women).



They get +1 bonus at levels 1-3, +2 at levels 4-6, +3 at levels 7-9 and +4 at level 10.



Dirty Blow

A number of times per day equal to their warrior dyke level they may attack their racial enemy with a dirty blow, either a blow to the family jewels or some manner of nipple cripple. This attack is treated as an

automatic critical if it hits and the victim must make a Fortitude save (DC 25 + damage dealt for nipple cripple (30 if wearing a nipple ring), DC 50 + damage dealt for attack to the family jewels) or be rendered helpless, doing nothing but rolling on the floor, clutching the injured area and sobbing for mummy



Confuse

While being hateful creatures, the warrior dykes are usually skimpily dressed and have features considered to be attractive to the average male when not twisted into a vicious mask of hatred. This can cause fantastic levels of complete confusion in males. A number of times per day equal to her Confuse level, the warrior dyke’s sexuality and

appearance can be focussed to stun any intelligent humanoid male combatant for one full combat turn, denying them any actions as they scratch their heads and go…

‘She can’t be gay, she’s sexy.’

---

I quite honestly don't know what to say about that.

You can read their disclaimer here.

www.mongoosepublishing.co...rs%20Guide



Their "Quintessential Witch" is no better. It features a type of witch know as a seductress. This witch can only become a seductress if she has been wronged by a member of the opposite gender.

The picture they show is the evil seductress witch (you know she is evil by her black hair) naked, on bed with the niave girl she is trying to seduce.



Thoughts?



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side,
home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

"If this is all the gods can do, I'm over to the Darkside so fast." - Tom Servo Mystery Science Theater 3000, Episode 903 "Pumaman".

Edited by: WebWarlock at: 5/14/03 6:42:17 pm

[kyraroc]

Hey, WW. I looked it over (I'm a gamer, too, starting on D&D 24 years ago.) The "Guide to Female Gamers" is monumentally stupid, and, yeah, offensive, but I'm having trouble getting particularly angry about it, mainly because it's SO stupid. (And the fact that they admit it's stupid in their disclaimer impresses me not at all. Why do people think that admitting their stupidity is stupid makes it clever?) I mean, making fun of fat chicks? That's sophisticated humor for ya. It reads like it was written by people who have never actually gamed with women; none of the stereotypes even has the grain of truth to them which would make this kind of thing even remotely funny.



Now, of course, their disclaimer also implies that they were actually trying to parody this kind of view of female gamers, but I think they failed utterly if they really were. It's too mean-spirited, too close to what some people actually think, and has too few indications that the authors genuinely don't think that way for it to work as satire.



Of course, more to the point for this thread, this is indicative of stereotypes which actually do exist in the minds of a lot of male gamers. Still. Sigh. But I think things are gradually changing, as more and more women game, the same way that the increase in women who use the internet has meant that they are less frequently, say, flamed off of male-only Star Trek boards for saying they think Picard is sexy. The even-handed treatment of female gamers in popular gaming comics like Knights of the Dinner Table or Dork Tower is indicative of changes, and something we wouldn't have seen ten years ago.



So, annoying to see this popping up like the last toadstool of summer, but I think the days of this kind of thing are numbered.

Lost in Ecstacy

[bzengo]

I am pleased to announce, that I just posted and blogged an essay most publicly (May 16th) at my weblog, Bastard Zen, under the title:



The Kittens Were Right



Go us!

bzengo


Robert A. Heinlein The Earth is too fragile a basket in which to keep all your eggs.

Prof. Gerard K. O'Neill Is the surface of the Earth really the right place for an expanding technological civilization?

[urnofosiris]

It may be a manner of speech, but the word yelling makes me a bit uncomfortable. Oh we have been raging about this in on our spoiler forum back when it happened, but this is our board and the place to share those feelings, but when discussing the lesbian cliche we haven't been yelling, we have gotten yelled at rather.

I won't be standing up 10 years from now and yell anything at that man, he would probably take that as a compliment. By then I hope he will be forgotten altogether and not even remembered for anything he has done, good or bad, but that is just how I feel. Also, I hope whoever that person was who shouted that at Adam Bush did not add "with love from the kitten board". There is no way anyone can blame him for playing a part that he didn't write, no more than we can blame Amber for acting dead or Aly for acting insane. Eh that only gives the people who are ever so eager to dismiss us as crazy raging lesbians ammunition to shoot us down with and ignore the actual points the faq makes.

Anyway, I do think it is important that the lesbian cliche isn't forgotten, that Willow and Tara aren't forgotten, certainly not while it is alive and thriving, unfortunately there probably will be reasons a plenty to keep talking about this ten years from now and hopefully this board or members from this board, like yourself, will be there to do it, like they have done this past year.

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Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 5/17/03 5:02:12 am

[bzengo]

DrG - Oh I agree completely.



I do think we have been yelling, but only from the perspective of people outside the Kitten. The story about Adam - the person who yelled didn't mention the Kitten, at least not in the story. I don't know of any story about anyone from the Kitten behaving in a rude manner. All the letters I've seen have been polite, yet pointed. Our own feelings and emotions have been properly expressed in our own private forum, away from public view.



The point of the essay, I hope, is that the Cliche FAQ, the letters, Bob's essay's, the Kitten itself, and the work of the Kittens over the last year, has linked in everyone's listening, the death of Tara, and the end of Buffy, to the point that when the history of Buffy is written, Tara's death will always be seen as THE main event in the death of BtVS.



Which I believe - given that we can't have Tara back - is about as nice a memorial as one could wish for, because it speaks to the power of a dream of equality.

bzengo


Robert A. Heinlein The Earth is too fragile a basket in which to keep all your eggs.

Prof. Gerard K. O'Neill Is the surface of the Earth really the right place for an expanding technological civilization?

[WebWarlock]

Kyraroc,



Yeah. That is why it took so long for me to post this. One hand it can be considered very offensive (both to women and men) and on the other it is such a stupid ham handed attempt that the only people that look stupid in this are the people at Mongoose.



I can tell you how the industry percieves them. They are hacks. They role out books by the scores and it shows. Plus they have not been above taking material that isn't theirs and not giving all the correct references.



The Quint Witch is almost as bad, but with no disclaimers. I doubt they even see the problem.



You are right in one case. This is a dying breed. Most publishers (White Wolf, Eden, even industry king Wizards of the Coast) don't pull this and they understand that women gamers (of any sexual preference) represent loyal customers.



Don't get me wrong. You still see the "chainmail bikini" syndrome, but it is no where near as bad.



For the record: My wife thinks Picard and Skinner (X-files) are both sexy. Considering shaving my head.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side,
home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

"If this is all the gods can do, I'm over to the Darkside so fast." - Tom Servo Mystery Science Theater 3000, Episode 903 "Pumaman".

[3peanuts]

The most upsetting thing about all those stupid cliches is that I am getting every day less tolerant and respectful with people that don't get the importance of this issue: I mean, I'm getting bored of being forced to repeat the same old lesson about *lesbians=good* over and over again.



Probably it's just me=too immature

[xita]

Nah, I think people just think it isn't a problem. We have made great strides, but sometimes people forget that people are still dying over their sexuality.

[tommo]

Anyone see it tonight? Zoe's got a new girlfriend, or, at least, she's trying to get a new girlfriend. I must admit, I haven't watched it for a while, but there was a rather nice little kiss between the two of them on tonight's episode. At 7.15 pm. Heh.



I love British television.

"Cheese falls apart. It crumbles apart so much. You can't ever put it back the way it was. I'm sorry, it's just...you know, it takes time to eat Cheshire cheese. You can't just go for coffee and crackers and expect cheesey goodness..." ~ Cheesetropy

[BBOvenGuy]

Last night I attempted to watch the movie 100 Girls. I say "attempted to" because it's a thoroughly awful teen sex comedy, so I was only able to stand bits of it at a time. I was subjecting myself to this torture in order to catch Larisa Oleynik, who some of you may remember from when she played the title role in The Secret World of Alex Mack on Nickelodeon.



Anyway, the whole plot of 100 Girls revolves around this guy who had sex with a girl in an elevator during a blackout at his college, and since it was during a blackout he doesn't know who the girl was. He spends the entire movie searching for the girl, and Larisa's character helps him out.



At the end of the movie, Larisa's character reveals that she's a lesbian, and she was helping the main character search for his girl in the hope that they'd find a girl for her, too. Sure enough, the last time we see Larisa's character, she and a blonde coed are reenacting the spaghetti scene from Lady and the Tramp. I'm pleased to report that no one died or turned evil afterwards. So what I want to know is - how can people call Joss Whedon a genius when he can't do something that even a bad teen sex comedy can get right???

"The first task of anyone, lest you get canceled, is to entertain people, because they ain't there for message." - Dick Wolf

[tyche]

Been meaning to post this for a while, but apparently J-Lo plays a lesbian hit woman in her new film, 'Gigli'. However, she becomes a better (i.e. straight) person when she falls in love with .. Ben Affleck, who plays a hit man. (As a straight woman I have to add at this point that the possibility of being romanced by Ben Affleck would be enough to make me seriously consider switching sides.)

It's almost as if the producers subconsciously knew that the storyline was so crap that they cast Mr 2-Facial-Expressions Affleck to make it even more unconvincing...

[xita]

Bob, I am going to have to watch that



Oh and tyche, that movie does sound horrible. I can't even imagine the mess it is going to be.

-----------------------------------
Leora......Leora....

[sprhrgrl]

I saw an advert for the movie Gigli before I went to see Charlie's Angel's today (please, no comments... ). It was interesting because it was only at the end of the preview, when they showed the name of the movie, did I realize that it was the movie that tyche had mentioned. They didn't use the term lesbian at all, and the whole preview was J-Lo talking about how Ben Affleck wasn't her type. . . It looked like a boring story about a woman who doesn't want a man and then is charmed into it by the end, a la nearly every movie out there. . . The official site is here, but there's not much on it except for the synopsis which also doesn't mention the L word. You can watch the trailer at this page, maybe.

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

[Sister Bertrille]

I came across these two reviews/synopses for a couple soon-to-be-released, major studio offerings. One is of the aforementioned loathsome Gigli, the second is of Mona Lisa Smile. Guess what they have in common? (Oh, and read no further if you do not wish to be spoiled, in every sense of the word):

Quote:

---

Gigli…Without giving away too much, Gigli can’t bring himself to cut off the thumb, and this leads to a falling out with the mob, but falling in love with J. Lo. You see, her ex-lover shows up, and slices her wrists. Because it’s a comedy, and that’s what people do in comedies. Suicide. I know, fucking hilarious. After that, she takes her lover to the hospital, and then goes home and starts fucking Ben Affleck. Because we all know that lesbians aren’t REALLY lesbians…

---

Full hilarious review at Ain’t It Cool News.



Then there’s Mona Lisa Smile, which takes place at my beloved alma mater, Wellesley College. Wellesley has always had more than its share of fabulous gay women - Katharine Lee Bates, anyone? (“And crown thy good with sisterhood!” we used to shout gleefully at step-singing) - but not here, no sirree. While other characters get to screw around like bunny rabbits and then talk it over with Julia Roberts, we have our one lesbian character - to paraphrase the Soup Nazi, “No nookie for you!”:

Quote:

---

…Dr. Amanda Armstrong: Mid forties and the school nurse at Wellesley, a forward-thinking intellectual whose life partner, a female, recently died. Whether or not their relationship was sexual is not an object for discussion or even speculation in the repressive climate of 1953 America...

---

Descriptions of all the other (hetero)sexually active characters at Filmjerk.com.



So by my count, we have two mainstream movies, two dead or dying lesbians, one “lesbian” who likes to sleep with men (or at least with Ben Affleck - go figure), and one widowed lesbian who unlike everyone else in her movie is not allowed to have a personal life. Given that we are so rarely represented in mainstream movies (are there any other lesbian characters in the major studio offerings this summer?), and that IT IS 2003, PEOPLE!, I am simply infuriated by how Hollywood continues to treat us (hint: rhymes with "hittily") and the stupid, tiresome message it is sending. Is anyone else as royally pissed off about this as I am? Should I tell everyone I slept with J.Lo and she wasn't all that? Should I sacrifice myself for the greater good by attending screenings of the two movies with a deliberately full bladder and an incessantly ringing cell phone (to the tune of "I Am Woman")? Or do I just need to get my Valium prescription refilled?



Bread, circuses, and Xanax,



SB

[darkmagicwillow]

Is anyone else as royally pissed off about this as I am? Should I tell everyone I slept with J.Lo and she wasn't all that? Should I sacrifice myself for the greater good by attending screenings of the two movies with a deliberately full bladder and an incessantly ringing cell phone (to the tune of "I Am Woman")? Or do I just need to get my Valium prescription refilled?

No valium for you! You're wonderfully snarky and wicked as is. I can't add anything to such lovely commentary, but if you get a chance, could you email me?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[xita]

Gigli really is upsetting, as are the ads and trailers that don't point that bit of information out. Now I hear there is a whole ODing gf. No wonder she turns to men, lesbians are just unstable and suicidal. This sucks... big time. GLAAD?? wherefore are thou?

- - - - - - - - - - -
"The suspense is terrible. I hope it'll last."

-Willie Wonka

[DaffyQDuck]

I got this from TVGuide.com. HA!



DELAYED: Sony has pushed back the release of its Ben Affleck-Jennifer Lopez romance Gigli (pronounced "Big-Flop") by two days. The film, which was slated to bow on July 30, will now open Aug. 1. The studio should just cut to the chase and tell us when this thing will be out on video.

It wasn't our world anymore, they made it theirs and they had fun - Willow

[maudmac]

This Gigli movie makes Chasing Amy sound like Go Fish.



Stupid shit, I hope it tanks.

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Green green grass surrounding me / Wind is blowing through the trees / Sun is bright and I feel happy -- Shonen Knife