The Lesbian Cliche FAQ

[feena191]

I know they're not lesbians, so obviously not part of the cliche, but I've just watched Casualty, and it made me think of it.



A couple of weeks ago I posted an article from the Daily Mail about the complaints the BBC got after a homosexual kiss between Ben & Tony, two nurses on Casualty, was shown at primetime Saturday viewing.



Well tonight, Ben & Tony were having a nice meal, celebrating them moving in together. A drunk man comes up to the table, sits down & basically tells Tony that he & Ben had sex at a party a couple of weeks before (B & T had argued before the party & B was drinking). Outside they have a big row, Tony punches Ben, who pushes him away when he tries to apologise. Tony slips backwards over a wall, hits a barge rail & falls into the water. Now Tony may or may not survive, & Ben's been told he will face manslaughter charges if he dies.



I know, of course, people argue & by the programme's nature they have accidents. But these aren't the different 'random' people we see every week, they're regular members of staff. And coming after the newspaper report of the complaints, I'm sure those same people will probably be thinking, well they both deserve it.



Feena

-x-

[Garner]

Justastraightdog wrote:

No, she's not evil because she's a lesbian - that's the older shaping of the cliché, which has already done its job and established the connotation - she's a lesbian because she's evil.



I have to disagree with this and your other contention:

Willow always was meant to become evil.



While it was hinted at in Season 5 that Willow was abusing her magic, though not in an addictive way, I do not believe she was intended to go evil from the start of the show, way back in Season 1. Even with the nature of the lack of proper respect and caution towards magic that she showed later, I would argue that it was not necessary that she go evil, nor was it necessarily intended. Willow did refuse the vengeance demon position, and never tried to take that later, she didn't curse Veruca or Oz, when she could have, and though the VampWillow was shown as evil, so was Vamp Xander and nothing has been done since with that. We know Joss wanted a Dark Phoenix style story, but when he decided on this is open to quite a bit of debate. To say that she was always intended to be evil I think is to give Joss too much foresight and not enough credit to the character.



I also disagree with the first statement too. That Willow is a lesbian because she is evil. That may apply to DS9s alternate Kira and to the VampWillow, though that might also be the affects of not caring about social mores or self restraints and allowing other aspects of her character to show through, but Willow became a lesbian long before she was slated to become evil, or was in fact acting evil. It seems like in both of the above statements you are arguing from hindsight. At the time in season 4 and most of season 5 Willow was not evil. Acted in a relatively moral and good manner. Was loving and I believe did not treat Tara in an at all evil manner. I would also point to her caring for Tara after she was brainsucked by Glory as a prime example of someone acting in a non-evil manner. I don't see how you get evil first and thus a lesbian from Willow. I can see the reverse, which if I understand the cliche right is what generally happens: the character is a lesbian and thus becomes evil, goes evil, is a murderer or someting hideous happens to her to punish her for being a lesbian. That also fits in with how Tara was treated. She was never evil to any extent, and but was lesbian and did end up dead, thus punished for her lesbian nature.



I do agree with your last two paragraphs concerning Xander, a straight man saving the evil lesbian with a few "I love yous," and how poorly Mutant Enema treated the gay section of the audience (and everyone else watching for that matter, but still...) Whether that segment of the audience was big enough to really make a ratings difference or not is perhaps dubious. Maybe HIP or someone with some ratings expertise could say how big the gay market is, and what proportion of the BtVS audience was gay. I would be surprised to find it was bigger than maybe 10-20%, which would mean the gay numbers were not that critical to BtVS's success. That W/T attracted more gay viewers I wouldn't doubt, though how many is a different matter. That ME used the gay, and especially lesbian, audience shamelessly and then discarded them I think is definitely true. I don't know if Joss did that on purpose or was just to full of himself to not realize what a mistake he was making. We'll probably never know for sure.



But to say that Willow was not a positive gay character in season 4 and 5 is ridiculous. Maybe her character can never be separated from season sux and that will always mar the character. Perhaps the hurt that has been done with that is enough to wipe out all the good that W/T did previously. But then maybe not. There are still people here, on the Kitten, who are supportive of Willow's character, or the W/T relationship, and through the fic on Pens show that what happened was not inevitable, necessary or even so horrible that something good can't still be found in Willow and W/T.



Garner

[Hemiola]

Garner brings up some very interesting points, all of which have inspired me to express my own particular distress at the course of Season 6:



I had high hopes for Season 6 right up until "Smashed/Wrecked". Why? Because I felt certain that I knew what Joss was going to do. Surely, I thought, this will be a season about POWER. Indeed, I was certain of this when Willow delivered this famous line to Giles:

"I am powerful. And maybe it's not such a good idea to piss me off."

Here, I thought, would be a season of profound issues dealt with in an intelligent manner: Willow, an individual who had been powerless and tormented for a large part of her life, suddenly realizes that she has enormous power. After abusing Tara in OMWF, she would then go on to be "queen" of the 3 nerds (she was, after all, one herself), and proceed to become the "crimelord" of Sunnydale with the nerds as her minions. Ultimately, of course, it would be Tara and her love for Willow that would bring her back to "good side" (with, I was certain, a revelation that Tara's "Wiccan/Earth Magic" was much more powerful than Willow's "book" magic ).



But no. After "Wrecked", I screamed at the TV, "What the hell is this, a damned Afterschool Special? Magic is drugs instead of power?" IMHO, as soon as Joss made this rather foolish and "easy" choice for the path of the season, the badness was set in its course, including the "Lesbian Cliche".



I have always felt that a golden opportunity was lost in Season 6--it could have been something unique and profound. Instead it lapsed into pointless darkness and cliche...

[Garner]

Hemiola, unfortunately Joss went the way of the cliche the moment he decided that the only way for Willow to go DMW was through Tara's death. I think that also may have been his underlying need to punish Willow as much as possible and to clear the way for Xander to save the day. Idiot that he is!



As for the power thing, I totally agree with that. I thought we would get something about the nature of power, corruption, dealing with evil (ala the Darkest Magics), and maybe even playing off of Willow's need to be useful and help the group and Buffy. The addiction stuff was totally from left field and just plain sucked and blew. I also still say that there is no way Willow would have cast spells on Tara against her will. Not if Willow were in her right mind. That goes against everything that W/T stood for and against the depth of their love for each other. I didn't and still don't buy it without some mystical influence on her. But then at that point Joss had a specific goal to get to and had to warp the characters to get there. Which is why I say that Willow wasn't evil before, and wasn't meant to be from the start. Most of her actions in season sux were way out of character. Ah well.



Garner

(Hey, I used an emoticon! )

[The Destroyer]

In reply to justastraight, I think nothing can be further from the truth. Because if all Willow/Tara was but simply leading to some cliche you're essentially saying this ship., this board, is for nothing. The'res no merit in the relationship because its simply a tool to get Willow bad. Wrong on every count.



While I cant argue with tyhe criticism of how the relationship ended, to say that a loving relationship over two years was to signal that Willow was evil is frankly laughable. Whatever you think about the way the ship ended, (and it ended badly, no doubt), the idea that ME are so anti-gay that they would have a loving positive gay relationship for two years just to show how bad it is makes zero sense. And if it was true, why would you even like it?



And while ME werent there with the gay relationship pre season 4, that does not mean they werent gay friendly. Larry in season two. The whole idea of a Slayer )have you ever not tried being a Slayer?) sometimes a show doesnt need to jave gay characters to be gay friendly.

Edited by: Warduke at: 3/15/03 5:20:40 pm

[Sister Bertrille]

Moved here

Edited by: Warduke at: 3/15/03 8:07:31 pm

[Warduke]

Remember people, anything having to do with season 7 belongs in the S7 forum, NOT here.

---

Mozilla : One Browser to Rule Them All.

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

---

And while ME werent there with the gay relationship pre season 4, that does not mean they werent gay friendly. Larry in season two. The whole idea of a Slayer )have you ever not tried being a Slayer?) sometimes a show doesnt need to jave gay characters to be gay friendly.

---

Larry was only there for a couple of episodes before he died. Dead gay guy, been there done that as well. The slayer/gay metaphor was a funny subtextual message but it does not mean they were trying to do some good for the gay community, it was a joke, like Larry was as well, nothing more than a funny scene with Xander. I quite agree that a show does not need to have gay characters to be gay friendly, just like a show that has gay characters isn't necessarily gay friendly.



I thought BtVS and ME were gay friendly. Silly me, I believed Joss Whedon and his writers whenever they were saying they were aware of the importance of WT and that WT were not going anywhere. This we were told when they had already decided to kill off Tara, whether it made sense or not. Blatantly lying to a part of your audience that was already wary and expecting it to end badly -because well, that is the way it almost always end- in order to get their trust so the impact of the destruction of that unique gay relationship would be bigger, does not seem very gay friendly to me.



I am sure they did not kill Tara and make Willow go insane because they are lesbians, but the lies beforehand and the insults afterwards and the way they handled this story does not seem very gay friendly. If it is I don't want them as friends, I prefer enemies instead, at least then you know what to expect.



Extended random rant: I never asked for 'special' spare the gay girl treatment from them, but I also didn't asked to be lied to. I've heard the counter argument that they lie(d) all the time for the sake of protecting their spoilers. This doesn't quite appease me, but not for my sake. As a spoiler whore I got time to deal with it and had the choice of not watching, which I didn't. All the people who were looking at WT unspoiled and who had found their only recognizable and fair representation of themselves on TV were treated to a blood bath and the knowledge that they had been callously lied to. For what? To protect the spoilers they didn't read in the first place? Then ME wash it's hands in innocence and ignorance. Joss Whedon never heard of the lesbian cliche but he had still felt the need to stress that WT weren't going anywhere. All the questions about them from the general media and the gay media and the fan response didn't clue him in apparently. He did not have to lie like that, he could have said "this is my show, horrible things happen, but you never know how it will end". That would have kept everyone guessing just as effectively and protect his precious spoilers at the same time.

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 3/16/03 10:20:01 am

[The Destroyer]

"The slayer/gay metaphor was a funny subtextual message but it does not mean they were trying to do some good for the gay community, it was a joke"



A joke to some, sure. But the whole concept of Slayer, to this gay teen at least, was so incredibly important and so affirming that I can not give the show enough credit for it. Isolated and alone, perhaps I read far too much into it. Doesnt matter - point is it helped me. I could relate to the Slayer (far more than I ever did Willow and Tara, however much I liked them), because at last there was someone who knew what it was to be different. I could be wrong, but to me that wasnt a subtextual joke, that was reaching out to every disaffected teen (including gays) who felt alone. Buffy was like us. And that was incredibly important. It certainly got this gay teen watching the show.



As to the rest, yes, ME behaved deplorably in their interviews and reactions. But what does that mean to the majority (like me at that point), who didnt read the interviews, had no idea they had existed?



My real point is that what happens outside the show is largely a side party. Its not the main event. My original point of the post was that, yes, goddamit, this show has been incredibly important for gays and gay teens and whatever. Whatever happened from Seeing Red is irrelevant to that point. It doesnt take away the preceeding 5-6 years. Because if the preceeding years mean nothing, than neither do Willow/Tara - which is a self defeating argument. You cant separate them from cyncism if all you think is that they were a tool to get the gay community. Either their relationship was special and meant something, or it wasnt.



To me it meant a great deal. Whatever ME said in their interviews, however they chose to end the relationship, it doesnt, and shouldnt, take away the incredible power and strength the relationship showed (and to my mind, the identification of gays with the Slayer).

[xita]

If we didn't believe in the power of Willow and Tara we wouldn't be here. However, that power comes inspite of the creators who didn't believe in it enough to follow through properly (not going to get into the hows here).



And the slayer thing, that's cute but didn't speak to me as a gay person. In fact Buffy didn't speak to me as a gay person till the buffy/faith deal, which again unfortunately was not followed through on properly.

-----------------------------------

Only 50 cents

[The Destroyer]

That was really my point to begin with. That to some extent it doesnt matter that W/T wasnt followed through properly (although of course it matters a great deal), but that the fact ME were so screwy and messed it up doesnt invalidate anything that went before. That was the one of the original post it seemed to me, and I disagreed. Doesnt matter what Me's intentions were with it. They created it and it took a life of its own - could care less about the whys and how fors, just that it did.



And I know not everyone feels the same way about Buffy the Slayer and a gay teen relating to it. I just wanted to say that on a board where the isolation of such is understood like nowhere else that if something on the show acted as a lifeline (and believe me it did), then it means something. Cute, a joke, whatever.. it meant something to me, and I'll always be eternally greatful for that.

[Garner]

Destroyer, I can understand what you mean about identifying with the Slayer. A lot of gay people may not have because she wasn't explicitly, or in any way to my mind, gay, and not dealing with those issues. But for someone who is growing up in a place where they have no connections to other gay people, feel different, isolated, alone and perhaps even alienated, I could see how the Slayer would strike a chord. If that helped than the show is a success at least on some level.

I also agree that to an extent the fact that W/T were around for about 2 years (I don't count much of season sux as they weren't together and Willow was acting too out of character) and there is no doubt that they did quite a bit of good during that time. Helped some troubled teens and spoke to many people and maybe, just maybe, helped a few straight people see that being gay wasn't that bad or that different from being straight. Does the final death undo this? Well, no and yes. The help was done, so that can't be changed. On the other hand a lot of people here have posted how much W/T meant to them and how devastated they were by the loss, how much hope was taken away. Sort of like pulling a rope back from a drowning person. For many the positive aspects WERE overshadowed or reversed. For some they now felt justified in not liking Tara or W/T in the first place and were happy to see Willow go dark and commit terrible acts. In the long run which image will be the one that has a more lasting impression? Will it be W/T the loving couple or will it be Tara shot and Willow flaying Warren? Hard to say. From now on that shadow will always be there. For any future, or currently, troubled teens or whatever age the balm, hope, example of W/T won't really be there.

And that is the true shame. DrG wrote that "I never asked for 'special' spare the gay girl treatment from them" but I think that should have been there. Where are the other lesbian characters? Did one of several die? Did one of several go evil? Do we see a balanced viewpoint where some are good and others are bad? No!

I have always been annoyed with asking for special treatment for Tara. Why shouldn't she have had special treatment? Was she and Willow the only examples of a caring and loving lesbian relationship on TV, just about ever? Yes. Did they help people with real world problems and to get over those? Yes. Did they promote tolerance and acceptance in the real world? Yes. Isn't that all worth preserving? Since there were and are no alternatives on TV now wasn't that unique situation one that was more valuable? I sure say yes!

And come on, it's not like Xander, Buffy, Willow, Anya or Dawn aren't protected from death! They all have, or had before cancellation, special treatment. They weren't going to die and stay dead. If Tara was treated like any of the other stars than she WOULD have been protected from death too! Instead ME and Joss give in to a cliche that is and was hurtful, reinforced negative images, and destroyed a lot of the chance for future good. To my way of thinking that leads to an awful lot to answer for.



Garner

Edited by: DrG at: 3/17/03 2:59:15 pm

[urnofosiris]

Just repeating what Warduke said as well, everyone please remember to not discuss events or characters from season 7. I know it is easy to let it slip in and a sentence here or there may seem minor, but it can lead to more discussion which belongs on the season 7 forum.

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

Edited by: DrG at: 3/17/03 3:22:05 pm

[Dawnie Faith]

Hi everybody,



I've been lurking at the board on and off for a while now (I'm Grimjack's friend, from the 'Once More, With Bitterness' musical parody...), but I think this is my first time posting. Hope I don't screw this up...



Anyways, I'm working on a Psych paper (that's due tomorrow actually - yeeps!) in which I'm discussing the Evil/Dead Hollywood Lesbian Cliche, and I was hoping you might be able to help me with something.



I've read 'The Celluloid Closet', as it's been mentioned numerous times whenever someone has posted something about the Cliche somewhere, but I couldn't find the passage that talked about it outright. I saw several examples, but no discussion, which is what I'd been lead to believe was included.



I know some of you have read the book, so for those who have... is there any way you could tell me the approximate page numbers I should be looking at? I've got most of my paper written, but I need to take quotes and I'd like to get them from that book if possible.



Also, a few of you have written very informative and interesting essays on the topic in this thread, and I'd love to be able to quote from some of those - including the posted FAQ itself. If any of the authors of any of the pieces (ie: Kyraroc, Willowlicious, BBOvenGuy, etc) see this before Monday afternoon (EST), could you email me some information I'd need for my work cited entry? (If it's not already in the post, that is)



I'd just need stuff like your first and last names, the date the essay/article was written, any qualifications you might have (if applicable), the URL where the article is posted (if posted somewhere other than the board), and (again, if applicable), the organization in charge of that site.



Oh, and if you do email me with this info, could you also tell me the title of your work and approximately which page of the thread it's located on? Just so that it narrows down my search a little bit.



Thank you very, very much. I really do appreciate it. If anyone's interested, I'd be glad to elaborate on the topic of my paper, and maybe even post it (or sections of it) here if there's curiousity. :) My email address is: jewel_kaufman@hotmail.com, just in case it doesn't show in my profile.



Thanks again, I look forward to (hopefully!) hearing from you.

[justin]

I'm not sure if this should go here, so mods please move it if I'm wrong.



Anyway a few years ago I saw the last few minutes of a film (I don't know what's it's called) which showed two women in bed while a voice over said something like



Their relationship wasn't evil but evil came from it.



Does this fit in with the cliche since it does seem to be suggesting that these two women being lesbians was the cause of all the bad stuff that happened in the film

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

[dekalog]

justin would love to know what the name of this film was because well, that's just really...........



I tend to find that whenever the word but is used it kinda negates the first part of the sentance as is often used as a way for someone not to take responsibility for what they say after the but, then again that is my opinion.



I mean how do you feel about it? for me it just fits into all the rest of the badmouthing lesbians get, but again just my opinion.



edited to add the fact that I am laughing in hindsight at MY use of the word but after everything I said - now if I was saying butt instead of but, but then again that is another topic

Edited by: dekalog at: 3/25/03 1:37:01 pm

[justin]

Sorry I know it's not much to go on. I wish I could remember the name but as I said I only saw a couple of minutes and it was a few years ago.



I have to say I feel the same way about it that you do. Even though when I saw it I hadn't given any thought to the cliche it still made me

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

[sprhrgrl]

Egad, Justin. . . That sounds so much like the old sensationalism videos, you know, Attack of the Giant Ankle Biters and whatnot. . . I can just hear the voiceover in my head. . .



::shudder::

sprhrgrl.com

counting*stars

racism=sexism=homophobia

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. – Gloria Steinem

[dekalog]

sprhrgrl that's funny as I was thinking Reefer MAdness myself

[willow4tara2gether4eva]

Can I ask a question, I apologise if it has already been answered.



Is there a list of movies, shows and books we should avoid because they use the dead gay cliche?



I know 'blacklisting' is a strong term, but I just finished a book that had a wonderful sensual gay male relationship in it, only for the more gay male to LITERALLY run into a bunch of shooting guns at the end! And it really upset me. ("The Left Hand of Darkness" by Ursula Le Guin btw).



And I would like to avoid such books and movies if I can in the future, so forewarning whould be nice.



(though I mean movies, books et cetera where the GLBT character needlessly dies, ie I remember one movie where on character was dying from the beginning and the movie was about both characters trying to cope with the inevable (it was beautifully done - I am pissed I forgot the name, so I personally don't count that as dead-gay cliche)



But back to topic... Is there are list of books, movie, shows to avoid because they use the cliche?

[tyche]

I swear that I'm developing a knack for catching 2 minutes of shows just when they're in the middle of doing a full-blown interpretation of the lesbian cliche. (And DrG, I didn't see the second part of Wire in the Blood, the show I mentioned some time ago. I think it involved the grieving lesbian - whose lover had been killed - going crazy, and I just couldn't be bothered to watch.)

Anyway, I saw the end of this evening's ep of The Bill. There was an argument between two women (I think they were the former and current partner of a man - the former partner had left him for a woman.) The current partner (if that's what she was) was a total lunatic, and started yelling all this stuff about how the other woman was a pervert and had bought shame on her husband by leaving him for a woman. The other woman walked away - and was then pushed down the stairs by the crazy woman. (The bit where she got pushed down the stairs was the end of the episode, so I don't know if she will survive.) According to my mother (who watches the show more often than I do), this storyline has been going on for several months now. I do know that the show has (or had) another lesbian character, who was still alive the last I heard. But the message of this storyline seems to be: leave your husband for a woman, get called a pervert and then get pushed down a flight of stairs.

Anyone who knows more of the background to this storyline than I do is welcome to fill in the blanks and tell me if I'm right or wrong in my assumptions.

[Diebrock]

tyche, I don't know the show.

But from what you said, it seems more to be a message of never turn your back on crazy, homophobic women. Maybe that is an interpretation that is too simple, but it's the first thought that came to my mind.

_____________________

"MURDERERS! Remember Orca!!! Free Willy!!!" Yun-kyung bellowed. "The shark in Jaws was just misunderstood!" - Castaway
I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

[Titan the Green]

This was on HBO this weekend.



Takes place on a terraforming Mars where the political structure, we're told, is matriarchal. There's lots of "dyke" used throughout the movie.



We watch as a small police force is sent out to retrieve a mass "murderer" Desolation Williams, played by Ice Cube, from one of the mining outposts.



On the train trip out, the commander of the force, played by Pam Grier, seductively touchs and propositions the female second in command (Melanie Ballard). She acts all disgusted and tells one of the (male) others she refuses to sleep her way to the top. He also propositions her. Her responses throughout leave you wonder her orientation though.



Once they arrive, they find no one about and begin to investigate. The commander is the first one to lose her head. Yep, this movie is a few AUs on the gory side. Ballard is now in charge and at one point, when it looks like the Martians will be storming the police station, her male buddy proposistions her again and she says why the hell not. They are interrupted while kissing but the question of is she or isn't she is finally answer. Hetero, baby.



The other female cop is numerous times referred to as a dyke. And, yep, she also loses her head in the final battle scene.



Although the two implied lesbians are killed, so are most everyone else, the exceptions being Ballard and her bad boy side kick, Desolation Williams.



I recommend it for the cliche.



Titan the Green

[tommo]

tyche, I watch The Bill. The story is that Brandon (the guy) has split up with his wife (who left him for another woman). Now, he and his wife get on pretty well, and the animosity between them is latent, if shown at all. However, Brandon is being pursued by a colleague at the police station, who has thus far;



1) slept with him once and assumed that they're in love



2) told him she's HIV positive to gain sympathy and then, when news got out about it, told everyone that it was a mix up at the hospital with blood samples



3) sent threatening mail and messages to Brandon's ex-wife calling her a pervert



This all culminated in the scene where they argued, and Brandon's ex-wife found out that this woman, basically, is a grade A nutter. So far, I've been impressed with the way they represented Brandon's ex. She's a career orientated woman, with children and a female lover. If anything, her getting pushed down the stairs points more towards the insanity of the woman police officer, rather than a punishment of sorts for her sexuality.



But The Bill also has a lesbian police officer in the ranks; Gemma. And over the last few episodes, Gemma has been involved with a married woman. They had a one night stand, and then the next thing that happened was that this woman turned up at the police station with kids in tow, telling Gemma that her husband was abusive and that she'd left him, for Gemma. There was a great scene where Gemma was talking with her friend in the car, and she was saying that she thought it was just a one night stand, and that she wasn't ready for a relationship with this woman.



Turns out that the woman was lying; her husband wasn't abusive and they did get back together, with her husband laying down the usual threats to Gemma.



I think what I liked about these two storylines is that in each case, the lesbian was an unwitting victim of a crazy straight woman, heh heh. Again, what I find about UK tv is that it tends towards the real-drama than drama-drama, if you know what I mean. Both lesbian characters are not only seen to be successful career women, but they're also likeable and hey, not mad/evil/dead. Brandon's wife was the voice of calm when talking to the crazy police officer; she was the one who discovered just what a nutjob she is, and Gemma is the young girl who got pulled into the mid-life crisis of another woman that she met casually.



I really like this programme, because I feel it represents not only positive examples of lesbians, but also realistic examples of lesbians. It's one of the reasons I continue watching, I think. Thanks for mentioning it, tyche, otherwise I wouldn't have thought to consider this with regards to the cliche.

I was being patient, but it took too long. I mean, I miss Buffy, I do. But life shouldn't just stop because she's gone.

[tyche]

Thanks for providing the background, Ruth. I really wasn't sure how the storyline had played out before the scene I saw, but it's interesting that they have 2 depictions of crazy straight women.



I did recently read (in that reliable news source, NOW magazine) that Jane Danson was leaving the show b/c she wasn't happy with having to do lesbian scenes. Which is a bit strange considering that she must have known from the beginning that her character was a lesbian.

[tommo]

That is really odd, tyche, because I remember when her character was introduced, she was saying that it was a great opportunity to play such a character. But hey, that was in The Mirror (another great news source) so I suppose you can't rely on the press. Heh.

I was being patient, but it took too long. I mean, I miss Buffy, I do. But life shouldn't just stop because she's gone.

[Dumbsaint]

Hee. Dyke drama coming from a straight woman. See, that's kind of a refreshing twist on the cliche. Why don't we ever get that stateside? Stupid American television. I should really stick to reading smut in my spare time.



Never fails to give me a bona fide (and lesbonerfied) happy.

I had been hungry, all the Years- My Noon had come- to dine-

I trembling drew the Table near- and touched the Curious Wine-

[unionjill30]

This is an article from May 2003 Girlfriends Magazine. This is it in its entirety, unlike just the part of it posted in Witches and Vixens.



The Buffy Factor



Thanks to Buffy’s Willow lesbian representation on TV has forever changed. Lauren Dockett sums it up on the eve of the shows finale.



Many of us started watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer seven years ago to see a woman kick weekly demon butt. We were not in it for lesbian subtext. But even as we wondered at former soap star Sarah Michelle Gellar’s ability to master a sweep kick, we found ourselves distracted by her spellbinding buddy. Young with Willow (Alyson Hannigan), in forgettable outfits and honest, flat red hair, was resplendent. As Buffy’s nurturing best friend, she thought her way through the hell of Sunnydale high school with gooney, understated wit. Then she fell in love – with a girl.



It was the fourth season, and the show’s boy-genius feminist creator Joss Whedon and executive producer Marti Noxon started Willow on what in screenwriting terms is considered an interesting “arc.” They presented her with Tara (Amber Benson), a painfully shy witch in granola cottons and a bigger-than-TV-sized body. From their first spell together, sparks flew. At Buffy, viewing parties and Internet chat rooms, lesbian and bi women hoped aloud that Whedon and Noxon would really deliver here by giving viewers something more than one of those TV flights over lesbianland that’s over in a ratings minute. And bless them they did. For nearly three seasons the world got to watch as two smart girls fell slowly in love.



Willow and Tara’s warts-and-all relationship was heavy on sugar and spell casting. After Tara’s brains were sucked out by a god trapped in the wrong dimension, Willow nursed her back to health; when Tara’s fundamentalist father gave her a give-up-the-witchcraft ultimatum, Willow helped her girlfriend handle family rejection. The two advocated Wiccan pride, conquered addiction (as Willow’s powers become all-consuming, Tara tough-loved her into quitting), and even modeled lesbian parenthood when Buffy died long enough to leave her orphaned little sister in their care. All that was missing was the sex.



“The chaste thing was necessity,” says Noxon. “We had to fight [Buffy’s former network] the WB for every little thing there. ‘Okay you can have one kiss. Okay on fondle. Okay, a kiss and a fondle but, uh, not in the daytime or in bed!’ There were all these arbitrary rules. So their relationship became a little idealized. It worked out okay, because it became more romantic. Once we got to UPN there was little less concern.”



Except for one minor detail: When Tara was killed at the end of the sixth season, her death set off a controversy that rocked the show’s heavily invested fan base. Some of the heat came from the fact that the episode contained the first-ever look at Tara and Willow in a post-coital embrace. Shortly thereafter a bullet intended for Buffy tore through the young lover’s chest. We watched her die in Willow’s arms, her blood soaking through her girlfriend’s clothes. In subsequent episodes Willow’s grief turned her dark, and this gentle character achieved the crest of her arc. When her pleas to a powerful god for Tara’s return were refused, she attempted to destroy the world – including her Sunnydale pals – settling in the end for torturing then flaying the skin off Tara’s killer.



All hell also broke loose in the real world. Arguments flared in The Kitten, The Witches, and The Bad Wardrobe, and online Willow and Tara board, and gay and mainstream press recycled them. Petitions circulated for Tara’s reinstatement. Popmatters.com TV critic Todd Ramlow called on GLAAD to rescind its nomination of the series for Outstanding Drama. Suddenly Whedon and Noxon found themselves defending against charges ranging from ignorance to outright homophobia. They were accused of recklessly invoking the lesbian-sex-leads-to-death trope. Suddenly, the darling, longest-lasting lesbian relationship in television history was lumped in with The Children’s Hour, Basic Instinct, and the many short-lived television lesbian characters who turned evil or died horrible deaths.



The pair apologized for any insensitivity but reiterated that Buffy was a show about hardship, and that not killing Tara would have been homophobic. Noxon says, “I’ve gotten some of the most frightening e-mails and letters from our fans for killing Tara. Our fans are so passionate and feel so deeply about these characters. We were aware that killing Tara was problematic. There was a lot of talk before we did it. But then we knew we would have done it to any character regardless of sexuality. It was Willow’s time to get it and it would have been hypocritical not to do it.”



At the time Whedon tried mollifying fans with assurances that Willow would remain a lesbian. He told TV Guide Online “without any equivocation” that “Willow’s gay… We decided it would be unfair of us, particularly considering the circumstances of Tara’s controversial death to say, ‘Oh, now Willow’s over it.’”



Willow has not gotten over her homosexuality; nor has she completely gotten over Tara. Noxon says this season will find her “coming back slowly form last season. She needs to earn her right to do magic again and to embrace her power. There’s no ‘Here I am, like my shirt? Mochas for everybody!’ We know it will be more difficult than that. She needs to recover from what she became and from a really strong relationship with Tara.”



At one point there had been talk of bringing Tara back, albeit in a more limited capacity. “At a time we were pursuing a story line where Tara shows up as The First,” says Noxon. “The First is a character that can assume identities of the dead. We saw Tara coming to talk to Willow then revealing herself as The First. But Amber wasn’t available. We saw some other possibilities too, but Amber wasn’t available for those either.”



Instead, Willow has taken up with the assertive slayer-in-training JFK (Iyari Limon). This relationship has already overtaken the first in terms of overt sexuality. Some Buffy fans we spoke with are thrilled, while others are wary. Tricia, a fan who lately filled in her BtVS gaps by collecting all the old episodes on video, says, “It made my heart hurt when (Tara) was killed. Their love was one of the most beautiful things I’d seen on television. I allow for some sort of ignorance that may have been at play in the writers’ decisions. There aren’t enough hours in the day for everybody to be a queer theorist. However, I am very upset about this new woman. There was no building this relationship up, no Willow discovering anything about her ability to love again. Just boom. Relationship.”



Tracy, who is a long-term member of a Buffy viewing party, says, “I love Willow and I want to see her happy. But Buffy is a tragic show. Buffy can’t have Angel because he’ll lose his soul. Xander left Anya at the altar. Giles was in love with computer teacher so she had to die. It’s a show about dying. And having a good time.” But Tracy isn’t so sure about JFK. “I am not happy about this new girl. Willow is hot, we’ve known that all along, but she should be in mourning longer. Why was she making out on the couch like that?”



Willow devotee (and real-life Wicca practitioner) Christina disagrees. “I was surprised and sad when Tara was killed. But I still feel like the show has done nothing but good in terms of advancing gay issues. If we want gay, lesbian, and bi relationships to be shown as a natural part of life on Buffy, that means they will also be a natural part of death. I was so pleased to see the writers have Willow and this new girl really makeout. And she didn’t show up too soon. Remember, this is teenage TV. Willow and Tara were a good transitional relationship for audiences. Mainstream America may still not be ready for bulldykes in codpieces, but these characters pushed the edge. This new relationship may push it even more.”



Noxon will only say, “We haven’t decided whether or not we’ll get to (more sex) with JFK. We better get on it though, we only have a few more episodes to go!” How about when Buffy ends, what will become of Willow? Will there be a spin off? A movie? “What will happen to Willow is the same thing that will happen to all the characters. The end of the season will mean nice character conclusions for all and a real series wrap-up. Whether or not they’ll go on, well, there’s only discussion about that.”



With a series that has spawned conventions, action figures, video games, popular comics, and the kind of fanatical devotion that rivals Star Trek, Noxon knows that whatever happens now the stories she’s told have had an impact. “Will we be at Buffy conventions for the rest of our lives? In twenty years I hope I’m not the crazy lady showing off all her stills from Buffy. I hope to have a long career and other successes. But yeah, this has been great. How can you not embrace something that’s become part of the zeitgeist?”





Tara Speaks from the Other Side



We talked to twenty-six-year-old Amber Benson about the influence of Buffy’s lesbian relationship, her own feeling regarding her character Tara’s death, and the meaning of Willow and Tara’s sexuality.



Girlfriends: You had to have witnessed the firestorm over your character’s death. What was that like?



Amber Benson: A lot of people were hurt by Tara’s death. I was hurt. It was not my choice to leave like that. I personally wish that I could have stayed. I understand why [the writers] did it; they wanted to give Willow’s character this amazing arc. But it was horrible how she died, and the first time there had ever been anything really violent like that on Buffy. I don’t think it was that [producer] Joss [Whedon] was conscious of the lesbian death stereotype when he did was he did. He always told us that Willow and Tara were based on friends of his and his wife’s. He actually wanted me to come back, but as a bad Tara. It was my choice not to do that. It would have hurt too many people.



Girlfriends: Buffy is a pretty sexual show. How did you feel about the fairly chaste nature of Willow and Tara’s relationship?



Benson: Alyson and I thought at times that we needed to be doing more kissing. Part of that was the WB wanting to take it slowly, but when we go to UPN they let us do whatever, and things began to change. Willow and Tara had the best relationship on the show – they raised [Buffy’s orphaned sister] Dawn for God’s sake! They were setting a positive precedent, helping to make homosexuality status quo. The writers could have had them taking each other on the parapet, but that would have cheapened what they meant to each other. A gay crewmember once told me that as a gay or lesbian it doesn’t matter who you’re sleeping with, you’re still just trying to live you life. Your sex life is only a part of that. I personally feel they’ve gone over the top with Buffy’s sexuality. Willow and Tara had a healthier relationship and made a better example.



Girlfriends: Buffy fans are so active and devoted. Huge numbers of web sites. Fan fiction. What were Willow and Tara’s fans like with you?



Benson: Our fans were split between lesbians and shy girls, and shy lesbians were, like, 100 times more affected by Willow and Tara. A lot of fans wrote how they started their first relationships because they saw these shy girls being able to do it. I had so many great encounters with fans. The Buffy posting board contingent has a party every year to raise money for the Make-a-Wish Foundation. One of the girls there came over to me and started crying and I started crying and she brought her girlfriend over to meet me and her dad was there so happy and excited and proud of them.



We had some negative reactions from those “Ew, girls kissing!” types. But I say, Turn it off if you don’t like it. Mostly it’s a lot of really bright people watching Buffy who get what you’re doing with the show.



Girlfriends: What are you doing now? Can fans still meet you at Buffy conventions?



Benson: I just got a production rep for my film Chance. It’s a digital video film about a girl finding herself and having relationships along the way with both boys and girls. I just finished a film called Latter Days with C. Jay Cox. He did Sweet Home Alabama. This one is about a male Mormon character and a guy living in a gay community in Hollywood. They meet and come together but the Mormon community tries to interfere. It should be at festivals soon. I’m doing one more convention and then I’m done. I’d rather do appearances like that for charity. I feel like people can get taken advantage of at those conventions.



Girlfriends: You co-wrote a few of the Willow and Tara comic books. Will you continue to work on show-related projects like that?



Benson: We got such wonderful response from women and lesbians about those three comics about women who love each other. It was great. It also really opened my eyes about comics. Superheroes really made comics in the beginning, and most women don’t relate to those women-saving superheroes. I certainly don’t. We need to find great women in comics. Comic books wouldn’t be in the slump that they’re in if they got the female audience. I won’t do another Willow and Tara comic because it would feel awkward, but Chris [Gardner, author of Buffy novels, comics, and reference books] and I might do some other comics together.



Girlfriends: Are you glad to have made the contribution you did?



Benson: Willow and Tara was about making homosexuality part of the landscape. We did that. And you know, in the end, I really believe if you can’t use the media to change the world, it’s not worth doing.

Tomorrow I just might be another face on your T.V. being arrested for telephone fraud or beating someone to death with my guitar.

Did someone switch your ritalin with ephedrine?

[The Angry Lion]

notice how all the comments gathered in this article are all somehwat ME apologetic? just one even semi-disgruntled kitten would have provided some balance, yet another example of controlled dissent. Oh yes I took offence when the article said Willow hasnt gotten over homosexuality, so what its the common cold now, could have been left out entirely or much better restated. Any comments about the Amber part Ill reserve for Witches and Vixens (yes I was being sarcastic about the cold bit, I know thats not what Girlfriends meant but it came across that way)

this one time, at witch camp!

[Diebrock]

Quote:

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We saw Tara coming to talk to Willow then revealing herself as The First. But Amber wasn’t available. We saw some other possibilities too, but Amber wasn’t available for those either.

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Quote:

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He actually wanted me to come back, but as a bad Tara. It was my choice not to do that. It would have hurt too many people.

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(there's really nothing else to say)

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"MURDERERS! Remember Orca!!! Free Willy!!!" Yun-kyung bellowed. "The shark in Jaws was just misunderstood!" - Castaway
I've kissed her best friend. I've reached into her best friend's pocket and fished around for keys. And I gave her best friend my number. I must be doing something totally, totally wrong... - TBSOL by Dreams

Edited by: Diebrock at: 4/15/03 8:13:56 am