The Lesbian Cliche FAQ

[Lisa of Nine]

For an apology to have any merit, it must be sincere. The reason behind the apology should be to repair the harm done, not save your own butt.

Ahem...

TOO LITTLE! -bring back Tara- send a chunk of change to the Trevor project- take out an ad-do anything besides just get your own ego stroked. **

TOO LATE! - where was this six months ago?

TOO SELF-SERVING! - why say this when ratings are sliding and your show is toast, and why say it to your **loyal followers?

**edited because... posting about other boards is not cool and against kitten policy. Sorry, mods and members. L



And WRONG POSTING BOARD!- he knows where the kitten is. Posting somewhere else seems like **a play for their attention.

**edited because... posting about other boards is not cool and against kitten policy. Sorry, mods and members. L



Oh, and get a way-back-machine so you can do it six months ago...and while you have it, make Tara not die, because that's what it will take to get my ratings points back.



Did I cover everything?



Oh, hi everyone!

Lisa

adding one more thing during the edit: I DID think it shows some class to put out a call to stop attacking people who are still upset. That won't get him any votes outside of this forum, and he didn't have to do that.

Edited by: Lisa of Nine at: 10/14/02 7:09:21 am

[BBOvenGuy]

I'm not going to take Steven DeKnight's apology at face value, but I am going to take it. I don't think he's being 100% sincere - I think he's looked ahead and seen that Mutant Enemy is sinking fast, and he's trying to patch up his own personal reputation so that it doesn't haunt him in the future. Having said that, though, I don't think he's being 100% insincere, either. The way he wrote the Willow/Tara relationship - even in "Seeing Red" up until the moment Tara got shot - shows that he understands at least a little of what was so special about it.



What's most remarkable about DeKnight's apology is the fact that he's breaking ranks with Joss and going against the Mutant Enemy party line. Ever since May, we've been hearing about "the needs of the story, the needs of the story, blah blah blah" ad naseum. Now DeKnight's saying, "It wasn't the story. It was what Joss wanted." That's huge. This is a major victory for us, and we should take it as such.



DeKnight is the proverbial rat leaving the sinking ship. He's no longer of any importance, except for the fact that we can now take his apology and plaster it all over cyberspace. : -->

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

[urnofosiris]

Well it is a start. Maybe. If he is being sincere anyway which is hard to tell with just words on a screen typed by a man who can lie so well. This by no means undoes what he has done, and I am not talking about writing Seeing Red. I'll wait and see if his future actions and words will lend further credence to the possible sincerity of these words.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

[famer]

I have to give SDK his due for publicly owning up to his mistakes.



As for its sincerity & the delay, I understand everyone's skepticism. The circumstances do cause one to wonder at the timing. However, I like to think that his turnaround may be somewhat sincere and due, at least in part, to Kittens' good work in educating the ME/public/SDK.



In other words, SDK intially did not "get" the controversy/damage but through the FAQ or letters, he eventually understood at least some of the negative impact of his comments: "Finally, I’d like to ask the rest of the Bronzers not to attack drllody11 or anyone else who’s upset with me for my lapse of sanity and compassion on the Succubus Club. After much reflection, I can honestly say they have every right be. "



Unfortunately, it's pretty much impossible to know whether anyone's really sincere, especially with apologies. Their future behaviour is the only way to judge.



Lastly, the articulate nature of the apology interested me. This apology should be read in context of his last posting. The last time SDK posted at BB, a bunch of W/T fans posted to him re: Tara. SDK didn't answer any questions and left immediately after (impossible to tell whether he was busy or just being all avoidy). There was subsequently a skirmish on the board re: Tara fans going after SDK.



Next time SDK appears, he addresses this matter straight(!) on. It's a long post and his only serious one. He asks that other BBers not flame W/T fans who criticize him. SDK probably knew, before going back to the BB, that he would be challenged on this issue.



Whatever anyone's conclusions are about the apology, I would venture to guess that it wasn't designed to up Buffy viewership. This appears to be a personal matter between SDK and W/T shippers only.



ME knows that if they want to put Buffy viewership on the table, there is only one person able to answer all the questions and follow-up with the appropriate action -- JOSS

Edited by: famer at: 10/13/02 8:52:42 pm

[helpful information perha]

first I'd like to thank drlloyd for putting in may long hours on the BB and other boards to keep this issue front and center where the writers could see it. thanks drlloyd





famer

good points - deknight wrote the opening ep of angel and posted to the bronze subsequent. his post promted a slew of posts from W/T fans and others less than sanguine with him/ME



he didn't post back but his gf also a ME writer showed up a few days later on the BB and her posts left this reader with the impression deknight had been on the bronze for a while that night - so I assume he followed the threads which included numerous comments reflecting theme's I've seen discussed here at the kitten and even comments on the rise of RL violence/gay bashings in LA this summer.





BOB - I'd also agree that deknight appears to have broken ranks and is attempting to distance himself from being tied to joss's vision.



while I agree with those who find the timing of this apology suspect, the motivation unclear, and the sincerity yet to be determined (we'll see if his actions really have changed to reflect this new attituted in time) I also am grateful that there has been at least from one person at ME an apology and I credit that win to the kittens who have worked so hard to elucidate the issue, and educate the public as well as ME to the facts. a win is a win, no matter and this to me seems to be a win

[Sheridan]

We have SDK's belated apology, and the 'contextulisation' of the Fury interview which indicate they were unhappy with aspects of the S6 storyline. We know SMG had words with the powers that be about the story to get it toned down, and we have Amber and Alyson's public comments. it seems the only person who liked the whole thing was Joss himself, so yeah the person who needs to stand up and answer the questions is Mr. Whedon and nobody else.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

[roamin]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I choose to accept SDK's apology at face value, ignore all the possible reasons for it and declare it a victory for our side.



This week we have seen Fury and SDK back down from public comments that they have made, is it a ploy for better ratings? Perhaps. But I choose to think that maybe, just maybe some of the writers are beginning to learn that they need to think about what they say and do.



SDK has publicly stated that he disagreed with his boss, the almighty Joss, and if he could have done things differently he would. You don't often, if at all, hear anyone disagree publicly with Joss. He has also publicly stated that if he helms his own show he wants to have an honest, loving portrayal of a lesbian relationship on it. That is something we can hold him to in the future, and call him on if he fails to live up to it.



This really is a victory for our side.If we don't accept this as a victory, then where does that leave us? It will simply leave us with more anger and hurt.

So I say take a moment to savor the fact that we got him to back down, publicly apologize, and to tell his loyal followers to lay off Kitten bashing.



And a HUGE THANKYOU to Drlloyd for fighting the fight and going into the Bronze time after time - this apology is really a credit to his tireless efforts.

[Kendahl897]

At least if nothing else ME now knows that we are not going to let this matter drop. People were upset when the finale ended and Tara was dead and they are still upset, the only difference now being that they (ME) are feeling the impact of that anger..falling ratings. I accept DeKnight's apology but the ONLY thing that will even start to heal some of the pain they have caused is the return of Tara. Until they start giving the fans what they want, they will continue to get their ass kicked by the Gilmore Girls and deservedly so....

[Ben Varkentine]

Well, I of course liked the first episode of Angel this year so I can't deny that as disappointing as some of SDK's actions were over the summer, I think the man can write.



I don't know if I'd call his apology a victory, though, and in saying that I don't mean to wallow in anger and hurt. The apology is definitely a good thing, for him *and* for us. But I think the victories we have won are every person who came here after Tara's death looking for people who felt the same way they did. Every person who read our posts or essays on other sites and came away more aware of a point of view they might never have given much thought to. Or even considered.



And, as victories go, that ratings slide ain't chopped liver either.

Ben Varkentine

"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."--Dorothy Parker

[Zahir al Daoud]

To be honest, I get an odd vibe off this apology, but for the record I'm willing to accept it more-or-less as is. Admitting you were wrong--in public--is a rare enough occurrence that it deserves credit, imo.

"O Let my name be in the Book of Love!
If it be there I care not of that other Book above.
Strike it out! Or write it in anew, but
Let my name be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kayam

[Spice Faerie]

In my opinion SDK did just a little too little too late. It's all well and good that he finally owned up to what was done but everyone at ME knew what they were doing from the start and they not only denied that they were going to do it but ensured us that Willow and Tara would be safe and happy. Well, you know what?! They deserve everything they get. Ratings and all and I don't feel the slightest bit sorry for them. Add Amber to the credits to be mischievious, make Willow evil...kinda makes me what to go all Dark Magick Willow on ME myself! If one of their goals was to piss off viewers then they succeeded in abundance. Never in my life have I been able to still be so livid about something months afterwards. Congratulations ME. I hope you're happy with yourselves...



Spice

"No candles? Well, I brought one. It's extra flamey..."

[Garner]

I don't know about his motivations, but I am also impressed with his last comments to not attack those that feel outraged by what happened to Willow and Tara. That is something he didn't have to do. He could have just apologized and been done with it. That he added this at least shows me that he has paid some attention to what has gone on at the Bronze and is willing to put himself on public record against it.



I don't know if I am as impressed with him blaming Joss. To an extent that is the easy way out. Just kick the buck upstairs to show that you are blameless yourself. I see that done all the time to dodge responsibility. He should have objected to Joss himself when this whole stupid story was being planned. And yes, he probably should have given the apology earlier. Still, it does take some guts to publicly, in a forum where everyone is generally praising you, to admit you were wrong and that your followers should think before posting. That is worth something. Maybe ME is starting to learn a little about PR, finally!



In the long run though, the damage of the story and the episode, and I still blame SDK for the way the Spike attempted rape played out, Buffy was SO out of character that it wasn't believable to me, will not be undone by a simple apology like this. It will not gain back any viewers. Only the return of Tara will do that, and I wouldn't take that bet with anyone.



Garner

[Mr B]

It's great to see someone from ME finally admit that they made a mistake in the way they handled the aftermath of the Death of Tara, and that we have good reason to be angry. I do agree though that DeKnight should come here and apologize in person.

Edited by: Mr B at: 10/14/02 2:36:13 pm

[feena191]

Hmmmm......he's posting on the BronzeBeta at the moment (with Jane E, Rebecca & the other Drew. DrLloyd & Web Warlock are there too.

Quote:

---

Web Warlock: in my experience, people who cite the dead lesbian cliche in reference to Tara do not understand the cliche itself. Presentations of lesbians in film and television have historically presented these women as troubled, twisted and desperate. They were not accepted by society, and the only appropriate ending for them was either to be killed or to commit suicide, thus denying these characters any chance at happiness and, also, providing for the audience a rather clean solution to an embarrassing problem -- how to get rid of the lesbian. In the character of Tara, we carefully constructed a young woman who was vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on her own two feet. We wanted you to love her so that when we took her away, the audience would feel her absence as something painful, just as Willow did, and absolutely NOT as a relief, as the cliche holds. The character was, in my opinion, in stark contrast to and the exact opposite of the old lesbian cliche. In characterizing Tara's death as yet another in the string of cliched lesbian deaths, you indicate that you do not see Tara as anything but a lesbian, you do not see her as the unique character she was, but rather just as a woman who had sex with women, and, in doing so, you reveal your own homophobia, your own prejudice and, more than anything else, your own lack of understanding of what we did with that character. Thanks for the opportunity to say so.

---

Another person at ME who just doesn't get it



Feena

-x-

--------------------------

"Run, flee, maybe skedaddle. We're not here to engage, this is strictly recon......what?"

"You said recon, you're like cool monster fighter."

[BBOvenGuy]

So here we are, saying that Tara should be alive and happy while Drew says that Tara should be dead and Willow should be miserable.



Who exactly is revealing their homophobia again?

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

Edited by: BBOvenGuy  at: 10/14/02 5:25:46 pm

[Dumbsaint]

Wow. I haven't the words.



But then again, "you have got to be fucking kidding me" does spring to mind, come to think of it.

"And never let it be said that I left a Tara craving unsatisfied." Willow, Wilderness Pt. 1

[superherofan]

Quote:

---

Jane Espenson says:

(Tue Oct 15 00:21:08 2002)



I'm typing this on DrewZ's computer, but it's me, Jane. Sorry, LovelyBoard... didn't realize you weren't referring to me. DIdn't mean to stir up all this pro and anti "kitten" sentiment, since I don't know what that is.



And, btw, doesn't DrewZ rock? That was such a brilliant statement!



Whoo-hoo!

---

Wow. Just wow.

[BBOvenGuy]

What astounds me about this post from Drew is the amount of pretzel-logic it takes to say something like it. It's like the Mutant Enemy writers have all brainwashed themselves in order to keep working there. I never expected to say this, but SDK has given the most respectable answer on the subject of anyone there - "I wouldn't have done it that way, but Joss is in charge and that's what he wanted."



In Drew Greenberg's case, he's set up a strawman argument in order to justify killing Tara off as "an individual." He defines the lesbian cliché in a manner that serves his own purpose and then uses that slanted definition to defend Mutant Enemy's actions.



In fact, the more recent examples of the lesbian cliché had nothing to do with "providing for the audience a rather clean solution to an embarrassing problem -- how to get rid of the lesbian." Talia Winters wasn't "an embarrassing problem," and yet she was killed in the very same episode where she slept with Susan Ivanova. On Northern Exposure, Cicely was held up as the paragon of virtue, but that didn't stop her from being killed off. I'm sure others here can chime in with other examples.



But then, the entire "we treated Tara as an individual, not as a lesbian" argument is ludicrous anyway. It implies that a person can't be both an individual and a lesbian. And it completely ignores the fact at the center of the problem - the fact that Tara is dead. Is Mutant Enemy suggesting that if we could all peek into some fictional character afterlife, we'd see Tara there resting comfortably and contentedly because she'd been treated like an individual? Are we supposed to believe that she'd be much happier than all those other dead lesbians who were killed off by less "enlightened" writers? For some strange reason, that argument just doesn't hold water.



Edited to add: Yeah, I saw that comment from Jane, too. Perhaps the saddest part of this whole affair is the way it has set all the writers - even the ones we used to cheer - against anyone who dares to criticize them.



I think that fifth essay is getting closer...

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

Edited by: BBOvenGuy  at: 10/14/02 6:39:24 pm

[Epicurus]

“and, in doing so, you reveal your own homophobia, your own prejudice and, more than anything else, your own lack of understanding of what we did with that character.”



I have a 6 year old cousin who does this.

He argues with his brother and when his brother calls him a jerk he shouts “I’m not a jerk!! You are!!” Then he’ll dance around the room yelling “Jerk, jerk, jerk, jerk…”



Drew’s disguising his childlike behaviour by using big, discriptive words.

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance
and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[BBOvenGuy]

In other words, that's Drew's fancy way of saying, "I know you are, but what am I?"

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

[emma peel]

Bob, I was lurking around while you and drlloyd and WebWarlock were at the BronzeBeta. Kudos to you guys.

Those writers have fricking lost their minds. It's so sad and pathetic that they seem to have totally towed the Jossian line, and they positively cannot be wrong.

Let's just blame the kittens for everything wrong that's going on.They have so much power!! (extreme sarcasm intended).

Some of Jane's comments...sheesh.

Janice

[BBOvenGuy]

Aw shucks... I just stuck my nose in for a moment. Brad and Tim deserve the real credit this time.



My next turn is not very far away, though... : -->

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

[emma peel]

Bob, I don't see how you guys could stay patient amid those very "clueless" people (I'm being polite). When Jane wrote:



Hi all! I'm back.



Hey, Web Warlock. I'm sitting 0 feet from where Buffy is written. We are under the impression that our ratings are just fine! We are a show that attracts advertisers in search of a very specific demo -- not just age but lifestyle, income level, etc. These advertisers seem very happy. And I don't need my master's degree in Linguistics to figure it out.

___________________________________

What are these writers thinking??????????????? How secure are their jobs????? Who's giving them the impression that their ratings are just fine?????? ????

Janice

Edited to ask could any of this dissing the kittens be a result of the Trevor press release coming out tomorrow, and it might make and writers look worse than they already do? Maybe they're all in a panic? Or just wishful thinking on my part?

Edited by: emma peel at: 10/14/02 7:09:11 pm

[Kendahl897]

OK, I cannot get into the Bronze and posts this, but would someone please go over there and ask the writers, Tara's death and it's impact aside, why they felt it was so fucking necessary to have such a disrespect for your fans that you lied to them for a year..You can argue the merits of the story if you like, but there is no fucking excuse for the lies

[superherofan]

I still can't believe that Jane doesn't know who the Kittens are, which pretty much means she hasn't even bothered to learn anything beyond Joss' point-of-view. Talk about being deliberately ignorant. Isn't she the same woman who said that maybe ME did a bad thing when they killed Tara? Talk about a complete 180.



I loved a great deal of her work, and my favorite quote ever is the "I'm a bitch" speech from "Room with a View". But to declare "brilliant" a statement that calls people who criticize ME's handling of Willow and Tara's storyline homophobic and ignorant... sigh. I really don't think I've ever encountered such blatant disregard and downright anomosity for (former) segments of a fanbase. And that ME, in a subconcious way, has given the green light to homophobia to its (remaining) fans.



Y'know, I personally felt an uncomfortable similarity a couple weeks ago between some aspects of this "debate" and a religious argument amongst fundamentalists.

Edited by: superherofan at: 10/14/02 7:15:02 pm

[Kendahl897]

Well, I was able to get on, though I'm not even sure it was to the right thread of that board..I brought up the lies the spread for a year and I may have gone a little overboard with the anger..but that is the one piece of this puzzle that I have yet to be heard addressed by the writers

[sam7777]

This is the true face of the ME writers. If you criticize them then you are wrong. Tara's death was an instance of the lesbian cliche and I am not homophobic for thinking so. I am interpretting their story line differently than they do as is my right (pesky first amendment). It's the old "she was an individual" argument. Can't they come up with anything new?



The new homophobia is doing the same old lesbian cliches and justifying them as OK because the person is an "individual" or is "treated like everyone else". This is the same argument used to eliminate affirmative action and is made by people who are not discriminated against. The problem is that gay portrayals on TV are overwhelmingly negative as is the treatment of gays in our society.



The story showed a gay relationship ending unhappily as the media almost always portrays them. This leads to people saying that the gay lifestyle is pathetic and doomed. It does not matter if the portrayal is not meant to show homosexuality as wrong. It is still yet another negative image in the media. This is what I object to no matter what names I am called.

I see dead lesbian cliches.

Edited by: sam7777  at: 10/15/02 3:28:54 am

[Ben Varkentine]

There's an Ian Fleming quote that I've always found to be a good rule of thumb. Once is coincidence, twice is happenstance, three times is enemy action.



Or in this case, Mutant Enemy action. Which is my way of saying I'm really suspicious of all this posting by writers lately, especially when so much of it is suddenly attempting to deal with some of the issues which are keeping over two million viewers away. And which don't seem to have bothered them until now.



I think ME needs a big ratings boost and they need one *quickly* (as if we didn't know that). And I wonder if they didn't decide to send Jane, et all out to stir up a little shit, on the time-proven "no press is bad press" notion (web edition). And if maybe the Fury interview and even the SDK apology (which I'd still like to think was at least partially sincere) had something to do with that too.



I want to stress this is absolute speculation, I am not claiming any of it as fact and I am not accusing anyone of anything (except of course, ruining a good thing). But the flurry of activity and the timing (and with Firefly's cancelation virtually a lead pipe cinch) makes me wonder.



But even if I'm right (which, again, I may very well not be), and this was an attempt at spin...it's some of the sloppiest I've ever seen.



I don't know how to explain Jane E's "the ratings look fine from where I'm sitting" comment, except to say apparently she's sitting somewhere that doesn't get Mediaweek, Zap2it, The Futon Critic, the Washingtion Post, the NY Daily News...I miss any there?

Ben Varkentine

"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."--Dorothy Parker

[maudmac]

I can hardly believe my eyes.



So, am I correct in assuming that what he's saying is that because Tara was not "troubled, twisted and desperate," that the manner of her death cannot be cliched? I understand what it seems he's getting at, but he's very much missing the boat.



If the purpose of those cliches is to reinforce that lesbians are bad and need to be punished, what does it say then when the lesbians are good and yet still are punished?



He also seems to be saying that by making Tara "vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on her own two feet," and still killing her, they were in fact subverting that cliche. Am I reading this right?



Because, again, there goes the boat way over there.



How many times will it have to be said that one of the central issues here is when and where Tara was killed. Just after making love and at the very foot of that bed.



And, come on, our own homophobia, our own prejudice? Because we saw a lesbian, character traits notwithstanding, killed and and another lesbian turned evil immediately after sex and in the most intimate of places, their own bedroom, and we failed to take into account that Tara was really, really nice? Please.



Which brings us to the other half of the cliche, which he fails to address at all. The Evil Lesbian. All these boats, and he just keeps missing them and missing them and missing them.



And Jane? I'm not even going to dignify that with a reply.

---------------------------
NO MORE SYMBIOSIS JUST PSYCHOSIS---CONSOLIDATED

[xita]

i find it odd too because of the silence they have had for so long.



And I would get upset but I just can't not anymore. Nothing surprises me, I expect nothing from these people. I think they are sleaze and they fucked up and they know it. Nothing is ever going to change that.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes