Lost and Delirious

[xita]

Thanks dekalog and hyo shin that helps a lot in understanding this. And I am even sadder now to learn that this film was made this way to appeal to the massess that it's original content was not like this.



Ok so the name Lea Pool sounded familiar and I have watched one of her other films, "Emporte-moi." Certainly it isn't cheery but it's very good, and I think it rings true. It's also one of the few films that deals with a young girl in her "coming of age" years. It's been a while since I saw it so I really can't say much more than that. It's not cliched though in the least. I stand by that feeling I got from Lost and Delirious.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[dekalog]

They are very different. For me I liked the book better as it challenged more - in terms of sexuality and sexual identity. I found the movie lacking in terms of complexity - which Lea Pool ususally does very well.



LOL about having to choose between the two - you are so right. It is very sad that this is the case.



I think that the fact that I am in the middle of funding hell for my quirky happy film is making me hate anything to do with Telefilm and the begging and pleading that you have to do. It is sooo much easier to make short films that no one sees except those of us who are into them.



ETA - thanks sam - if it gets done promise you'll come and see it - i think you'll like

Edited by: dekalog at: 11/19/03 10:10 am

[sam7777]

For me, I think it is the timing of when I saw the film that makes me hate the cliched ending. I rented it after SR. I'm also sensitive to the subject of suicide as I have had members of my family kill themselves. Suicidal GLBT teens is a real problem which is why the Trevor Project's 24 hour suicide hotline is so necessary. Movies give GLBT teens too many images of themselves giving up hope and killing themselves with few positive images to counterract the bad. Suicide is a problem for all teens but especially for GLBT teens and straight teens have many more positive images to look to. Suicidal lesbians and evil lesbians have both been done to death in most cases literally to the lesbian character invloved.



Dekalog: I hope you get your film made. We need more quirky happy films.



ETA: Can't wait and I am sure I'll like it. Good luck!!

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 11/19/03 11:45 am

[Hyo Shin]

L & D and The Wives of Bath are completely different works. It is not a crime. Nobody blames Casablanca for unfaithfulness.



I still prefer a suicidal lesbian teen to a crazy lesbian murderer. I think it's a matter of personal taste! (Sad, isn't it?)



Yes, Tori is much nicer in the book. But don't forget. She is a very minor character in it. We can't compare them directly.

[vix84]

I feel unsettled after seeing this movie. There were parts I really liked. The character of Mary, and the way she acted despite being judged by the other girls when she stood up for Paulie, was realistic. The way Tori acted wasn't completely old-fashioned and unreasonable. I could sympathise with her. Even if I didn't like the way she acted, it made sense... especially due to her being financially and emotionally dependant on her parents. The way she cried after she made up those stories was sooo sad. And when Tori and Paulie talked or even looked at each other, (pre dramatic breakup) it was usually depicted beautifully.



That said... *takes deep breath*. OK so Piper was cute in the role, there were some nice moments with that bird, (lol lesbian seagull, thanks Mrs V) and you can't say she doesn't through herself into her character. BUT the last 30/45 minutes of that film were psychotic! Sure, maybe the book it is based on has a very strange crime, and perhaps the 'unsex' me Shakesperean content was appropriate in the book, but in the film they are out of place and just, well, odd. Paulie's suicide is pointless, just adding more drama to an already over the top teen flick. She could have just stabbed Jake and there you have it. The misogynists would have their share of crazy dyke. Tori would be some old prozac addicted concubine, everything she once hated. Mary would run off with some gardener. And Paulie? A slightly eccentric English teacher, putting some spice into the department.

~*@.......We are the weirdest person in the world.......@*~

[shootingstar]

I haven't seen this film yet, but hopefully I'm getting someone to burn it off and sent it to me (well i'm not gonna buy it am i )



I've heard loadsa good things about this film so am looking forward it. On the subject of a cliched ending however...



I think that obviously there are a huge number of cliches out there revolving around lesbian in cinema. But it would be cynical to judge every ending that falls into such catagory. Some films are going to end in a death or evil, seeing as how it is a fictional event. Film directors or whoever are may well write films that have a certain message that would require it, such as this ones 'love is'.



guess i'm just have to wait and see the film...

* * * * * * * * *

A pretty girl happy in an ugly world, watching all the pretty people doing lots of ugly things...

[urnofosiris]

I don't see why it is cynical to object to this movie and the way it ends. If there were ten movies with lesbian characters that do not end up dead, insane, evil or miserable for every one movie where they do, I don't think we would be protesting nearly so much. I don't see why this one should be excused, it isn't helping the statistics for the better to say the least and the message it sends certainly isn't one I am waiting for.

The last mosquito that bit me had to check into the Betty Ford Clinic.

--Patsy Stone

[sam7777]

I certainly did not enjoy Lost & Delirious thans to the cliched ending. Frankly it wouldn't be cynical to judge every ending that falls into such catagory if most did not fall into the category of the cliches. However most end in death or evil. C'mon filmmaker's, let's turn the record and look at another aspect of gay life. Some films are going to end in a death or evil but I am no longer interested in watching them. Been there done that. I plan to skip the boring pain and hold out for happy movies about lesbians. That would be about one movie ever few years at the current rate.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

[dekalog]

Sam said - "C'mon filmmaker's, let's turn the record and look at another aspect of gay life".



Unfortunately the market right now doesn't want to support this. Take the flick recent "Pray for Rock and Roll" - it couldn't even get Canadain distribution because the powers that be don't think this is what people want to see. This makes it incredibly difficult for a filmmaker to ask people to fund a film.



If people keep supporting - i.e paying money to see films about death and cliche's and, the same old thing - then that's what's going to get made. Many independant filmmakers would love to go out and tell their stories - diverse stories - unfortunately it takes money to make a film, and if the public buys the product that is out there, and do not support the independants than that will be what keeps getting made.



I do agree with you sam - their needs to be some better product put out by filmmakers, but as long as people go out and watch what is mass produced and ignore supporting indie artists who would tell a story that is not mired in cliche's and easy answers you will see the same crap.

[xita]

It's so true. I love Lianna, and watching the commentary with John Sayles it's like, he could not get funding for this. He has never had a harder time raising money for his movies than his lesbian project. It's very sad.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[sam7777]

Quote:

---

as long as people go out and watch what is mass produced and ignore supporting indie artists who would tell a story that is not mired in cliche's and easy answers you will see the same crap.

---

This is the main reason I plan to skip stuff like L&D. When we have ten movies with lesbian characters that do not end up dead, insane, evil or miserable for every one movie where they do as DrG said, then I will be willing to look at someone's gloomy "vision" of lesbians. Until then I'd rather support those filmakers who are trying to show us other apects of GLBT life. I'm tired of the cliches.



This is not to say that I wouldn't look at another movie by Lea Pool. L&D does have nice cinematography , acting and pacing. I'm simply not interested in yet anoter gloomy and dark ending for lesbians. Been there done that. I hope more folks like Dekalog get their films made. We need more of the joy of GLBT life and much less of the pathetic misery. Gay love is a wonderful thing. I wish the media establishment would be more willing to show us that.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 12/4/03 11:44 am

[cutie pie]

Okay, so obviously this movie didn't settle very well with some people. I, on the other hand, liked it quite a lot. I haven't seen very many gay/lesbian movies, so I don't really know a lot about how they are handled in the media or handled in the writing. But to me "lost and delirious" wasn't handled as a lesbian movie but as tragic romance. I know that some people don't agree with me, but I thought that it was a very good move. I do agree that there was a lot of metaphores and I didn't really like that, but they still didn't make the movie painfully hard to watch or decrease the like-ability of it. One of the only things that I didn't like about this movie was the end- when Paulie jumped-or fell whichever-off the building everybody just stood there watching the bird fly away. Does anybody else think that they might have been a little bit more upset that a girl just killed herself? I know that this is another metaphore, that Paulie is somehow free now or what-ever but still. That has to be the only part of the movie that bugged me. Everything else I thought was great and handled well. I liked Piper Perabo's acting in this movie because it made me see her totally different. She was really good in this movie- way different from Coyote Ugly and Rocky and Bullwinkle. Along with Jessica Pare, I felt that she was extremelly believable as her character and played the part well.



Anyways, I'm done my rant now. I loved Lost And Delirious, and thought it was a great movie.

[sam7777]

I liked the movie until the cliched end. W/T can also be seen as a tragic romance. I guess I am sick of tragic romances with characters that happen to be lesbians and/or love another woman (the characters in L&D do not ID themselves as lesbians). Now that we've seen the "beauty and poetry" of women dying for tragic romance. How about a movie where they don't die for romance but actually live happy ever after. Dekalog is working on such a movie and can't get funding. It's like that movie the player. The artist comes in with a pitch about a romantic love story between two characters that happen to be women and it ends up being Julia Roberts and another actress with Julie redemmed to straighthood by Ben Afflect while the lesbian dies cuz that's what the test audiences like.

[Iamyouknowyours]

Lost and Delirous has virtually nothing to do with The Wives of Bath, except for the names of three characters: Mouse, Tori and Paulie. While Piper is frickin' awesome in the movie, and the girl who plays Tori delivers a touching performance as well, that "oh my God is that Mouse on the OC and she still can't act" gal I could have done without. In the book she is disfigured, not pretty with perfect hair. The thing I find most unfortunate, or perhaps fortunate is a book about transgender issues became a movie about lesbians. While I certainly don't wanna see another transvestite as a psychotic killer (Silence of the Lambs anyone?), I can think of few movies that tackle the issue well. Better Than Chocolate has a wonderful male to female character who steals the film from everyone else, and I know The World According to Garp has another awesome male to female, (at least the book does, I've never seen the movie) though I seem to recall a tragic but at least respectful end to her. Then there are plenty of drag queens used for comedic effect in movies like To Wong Foo, Mrs. Doubtfire, Tootsie, Some Like It Hot, and Trick. But I can't really think of any film that tackles female to male except for Boys Don't Cry which is tragic but true so I don't really put it in the cliche category as much. It is cliched but you can't be true to real life events and have them end up singing on the hilltops.



The Wives of Bath, though disturbing, was at least unique and interesting, with vibrant characters. I just dislike the idea that someone would be so oppressed by society that they would kill another for their gender identity. That's actually exactly the same situation as the murder in silence of the lambs. People can be born into the wrong gender for them and turn out just fine. It happens every day. Just never on the big screen. And I complain that there aren't enough lesbians in TV and movies (especially that end up happy).



Having said that I think Kissing Jessica Stien is a wonderful film. I own and love it. But don't rent it to watch a lesbian film. It's not. It is the story of a bisexual girl and a bicurious straight girl in their first lesbian relationship and how it forges a deep and lasting friendship between them. When viewed as such, I see no cliche about it. Helen (who opts for the longterm lesbian relationship) gets just that at the end of the film, and she is very happy. I wouldn't say it is a film that everyone will like, but if you see it without first categorizing it as a gay film you stand a good chance of enjoying it.



-Jules

A thousand pardons if I messed up any of the transsexual/gender/vestite termanology. I do mix it up occasionally!

[Iamyouknowyours]

Good luck with finding funding for your "happy ending" lesbian film. I sincerely hope you get it. The true way to change what's being put on the big screen is to put it on their ourselves. I'm finishing the final touches on my own lesbian themed script (happy, healthy, sane still together at the end lesbians, I promise!). While I doubt I'll find funding I might just end up "Chuck and Buck"ing it and run up 27 credit cards to their maximum. Though financially pretty stupid, you might consider that yourself as a last resort, if you feel your project is worth the gamble. On very rare occations it actually works

[dekalog]

Iamyouknowyours I second what you said about The Wives of Bath and third and fourth it. The book is more complex and deals with so many issues. I was hoping with Lea Pool directing that she would infuse some of this into the film - even with all the changes. Unfortunately this did not happen. To me the film is very simplistic and, well, cliched.



Thanks about the film. I am going to another meeting tomorrow regarding financing. Like you if I can't get it done that way I will fire up the Canon XL1S and start beggin and borrowin. I have actually started that process anyway . The film is getting shot next summer, one way or another, after I wrap up a documentary I am currently doing.



Good luck with yours - if you were here in Toronto we could enact the 'you help with mine - I'll help with yours policy'. If you ever want to chat, or bounce ideas etc... then get in touch.

[Iamyouknowyours]

I'm not very near Toronto, living in LA in the good old US of A. But if you ever need any help or someone to share fund-raising horror stories with, I'm here for you Drop me a line.

eltonsgod@aol.com

[sam7777]

I hope you gys get funding and distribution. We are in dire need of more views of the lesbian experience.

[dekalog]

sam you are too sweet



i always feel like giving you a hug at the litterbox - that will have to do instead.



i certainly hope all the types of artists out there keep cranking it out no matter what the obstacles. There are some cool people out there creating some amazing stuff.

[sam7777]

Dekalog: Thanks.



We certainly need more aritist like you cranking things out. I have given up on mainstream TV and cable. They give us derivative stuff like "L Word" and change a story Like the basis for "Lost and Delirous" to make it tragic for the mainstream. Blehh. I agree with the folks who said in the Queer as Folks thread that it's too bad we don't have the lesbian equivalent of the QAF producers to give us some innovatine and interesting lesbian portrayals. I'll settle for no baby or bed death stories for one.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

[Iamyouknowyours]

The problem is that Studios and other financial backers want to make money. That is why they go with what is already known to work. That's why you see five thousand remakes of pretty woman or a million boy bands. They thing is, what makes a movie or other artistic avenue work is originality. When you copy it over and over it loses its uniqueness and stops working. But studios don't think that way. I personally believe or at least hope that their will be a revolution in motion pictures as more and more people discover independent films. I mean how many times have we all gone to the theater to see a movie and ended up settling for something we knew would be bad because there were simply no better options to chose from?



Gay and especially lesbian films tend to fall into two categories: Written for gay audiences or written for straight audiences. That is why the gay characters must suffer in some way for their homosexuality (for straight audiences) or can end up together only if no one but gays and lesbians will see it. Well I think that's just stupid. One of the amazing things about movies is that they can promote understanding and tolerence. They can make people think. And sometimes, on rare occations, they can even change people's lives.



I think a film like Show Me Love, which was hugely successful in Sweden, shows that a general audience can relate to a lesbian story with a happy ending. Because that film wasn't purely about lesbian issues. It presented an wonderfuly written, acted and directed human experience. I want to see some different types of Lesbian movies. Movies where two girls happen to be in love (like Willow and Tara in the good old days), but they aren't punished for it and the plot doesn't neccessarily revolve around gay issues. Because besides the above mentioned Show Me Love, I really haven't seen that. That's my hope. That's what I want to be able to create myself.



Now all sorts of other stories are fine. We still need those other types of lesbian films we see now. I'm not saying they shouldn't be made.



I'm just saying that there are new and different stories that haven't been told yet.



Sorry, that was rather long. Thanks for letting me put this all down.

[dekalog]

I totally agree with you.



However - it is up to the consumer to make the revolution happen. Tons of people are out there making interesting short films, and some features too. Money is a big problem though (as I'm sure you know) and many great ideas never make it.



It would be interesting if a similar revolution as has happened with independent music happens in film.



With new technology, new forms of distribution etc.. all we need is more people willing to put their eyes and money into independent film.



Perhaps we could start a thread for this discussion - as poor Lost and Delirious is getting over shadowed lately by all these posts on independent film ( sorry)

[sam7777]

Iamyouknowyours and dekalog: You are both so right.



The studios have it both ways. The gay press praises almost every gay portrayal out there without regard to cliches and quality. The studio can make a movie with two lesbians enind unhappily like "Lost and Delirous" and can count on the gay praise to praise the story for having lesbians and great cinenamtography with no discussion of the dead lesbian cliche. The dead lesbian cliche can satisfy those elements of their straight audince that subconsciously and not so subconsciously are not comfortable with gays and lesbians. Win win for them but a loss for gay portrayals. This consumer decided after seeing "Lost and Delirous" to put a moratorium on seeing lesbian films with unhappy endings until the ration of happy to unhappy resembles something like real life.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

[dekalog]

sam the thing is the studios are being studios - they want the big money - that's what they are there for (show BUSINESS).



it's the consumer that has to make the change and stop supporting junk. i know of so many people that will watch a tv show or go see a movie just for the subtext. people have to stop settling for less. .. and not just in GBLT issues but in everything.

[Gatito Grande]

Well, after much rummaging, I found this thread!



I just saw this film tonight (on IFC). In the DirecTV description (combined w/ the fact that I vaguely remembered the existence of this thread), I had hopes that maybe there might be some grrl-on-grrl action . . . but I didn't go in watching it as a "lesbian movie."



Duh: I could see cliche-orama coming from a mile away. That said, I was still tremendously impressed by Piper Perabo's performance (especially when I just saw her a couple of days before in the the silly She Gets What She Wants). Who knew she could pull off Baby Butch so well?



I know that Mischa Barton is the It Girl of the moment (or one of 'em anyway), but I've never seen her in anything. She was OK, but boy was her part (for the movie) underwritten. I so hoped that (avoiding the cliche'), Paulie would figure out that there were "other fish in the sea,", and then maybe Paulie and Mary Brave would get it on (no such luck ).



Yeah, Paulie's character showed signs of nuttiness from early on. What kind of permissive school would not have thrown her disruptive arse out waaaaaaay earlier in the movie? (By the dish rack knock-over at the latest. Also, late me again state for the record how much I hate it when contemporary movies show SMOKING as rebellious and cool ). But anything to let her continue to sink further and further into depression and psychosis, so we can get our cliche'd endiing, hmm?



GG I was pleasurably surprised by the sexual content early on, though. Piper more than adequately demonstrates the virtues of the "more than a mouthful's a waste" philosophy , and as for Jessica Pare'? Out



Am very much intrigued by the differences in the book: so it's about an FTM? Must check it out!

[Candleshoe]

This depressed me. I've watched it several times now and even own it, but I want to scream every time I see it. I tend to turn it off about two thirds of the ways through.....

Seriously fancy Ms Perabo though....even with the sword! Actually, especially with the sword!

[k-prime]

I loved this movie, but it's one that I don't know if I'll ever watch it again. I'll probably end up buying it one day, but it's so horribly, horribly sad I'd have to be a major sucker for punishment to put myself through it for a second time. (I'm also known for getting WAY too involved in movies/tv shows, lol.)
But yes, I thought both Piper Perabo and Jessica Pare did fantastic jobs, especially when Jessica tells Piper that even though she loves her, they can't be together. Just thinking about it gives me a shiver.

[Alcy]

I so agree with you k-prime. I ordered this off Amazon because it's not available in NZ. I watched it once and half way through it became majorly depressing and physically uncomfortable to watch. I barely managed to sit through until the end and I'm not sure I'm glad I watched it. I've since sold it so I don't have to watch it again!

I do agree that both girls did a fantastic job and for once Mischa Barton was only a little bit annoying.

[dorksrcool]

This is the only movie I own that I weep while watching, even though I've seen it plenty of times. The first time I saw this film it actually led to a sprial into severe depression for me....but I still love it. I have to love a movie that can affect me in such a way. This one just hit a little to close to home for me (and probably a lot of other people) but it's a damn good movie.