I know there's a general writing discussion thread over on the main board, but attempts to revive it proved fruitless. Given the nature of the work here on Inward Eye, I think such a thread could be invaluable, and this might just be the place to host some hard discussion on the politics, mechanics, and machinations of writing.



Two things prompted me to introduce this thread: first was the wonderful news that Dyna’s poem is going to be published, I suspect there’s a hard core of wanna be and are already published writers lurking about these pages; second, so many of us have insights into writing and this seems a great place to share our thoughts, hints, tip and whatever moves you, or frustrates you about writing; it could be a place where we share our successes and/or disappointments. I don’t know, perhaps it might not be feasible to have a thread separate from Guideline/Creative Help/Betas, but I believe this area merits it’s own thread. I think Inward Eye has grown to the point that those who share this particular part of the KB community can truly benefit from a free-wielding exchange of ideas.



Good moderators, I leave this humble supplication in your capable hands … (and cross my fingers that you’ll agree). If we’re a go, I’ll post some food for thought after this message is released.



Peace!!

Patches

Our wedding vows: Life Love Everlasting, Always Intertwining. - Sunday June 27, 2004 :)

Firstly I have a question, by the politics of writing are you referring to the process of dealing with publishers, editors and everyone else needed to get a piece of work published, or something else?



I think this is a great idea for a thread. I always meant to post in the general writing thread but never got round to it.



To be honest I've never been all that interested in getting my writing professionaly published. I write because I have all these ideas buzzing round in my head and if I don't get them out somehow then my head will explode. Trying to get it published would just be adding a lot of stress to the process.



When writing my biggest frustration is describing the story (as anyone who's read my stories will know) I'll play a scene over in my head a few times before writing it but always have trouble writing down the things I've seen. Also what description I do add always seems forced and unconvincing.



Well I look forward to what everyone else has to say about their writing process.

Heat is work and work's a curse - Flanders & Swan

Hey Justin,



I suppose part of me was thinking about the 'nasty' politics of writing - like 'please send your query letter, along with a sample of your published work in the same style ...' etc. The hoops one has to jump through to get an editor to read your stuff --- and just wondering how the friggin hell some of these people get their work into print! Aside from all this, there's also the 'politics' of writing - what one can write, and where one can write it.



Now, the following is not a slam against the KB; it's just an example, *NOT* a criticism (am I making this clear enough )



Okay, so, hoping I've saved my posting privileges ... The KB requires all material posted here to comply with the FAQ guidelines, one of which is (or so I believe) works that reinforce the dead lesbian cliché are not permitted. (As I said, this is not a criticism; it's a statement). Now, I don't have a problem with complying with the FAQ and understand its purpose, so --- here's the food for thought ... One might consider this restriction part of the politics of writing. Other politics of writing might refer to specific content. Another example: 'No gratituous sex,' um, someone wanna give a bit more of an explanation here, as there are a few 'crazy people' in this world who believe sex is never gratituous ... Stuff like this I think might make some interesting discussion.



I don't think the desire to be published is a criteria for writing, or judging a writer's ability. Lots of people love writing - some of us have crossed the border of sanity and want to (or have) published their work. So, I figured, regardless of why you write, whom or whatever turns your crank with writing, I think this is a good space to discuss it.



~~~~~



Now, to specific topic of description - something I'm working my way through now. Ya, it's tough getting the reader to "see" the scene as the writer does. Sometimes a word or two will evoke a sensory memory - like say, "cabin and fire." Safe to say, most of us have an idea already of what the setting might be. However, to a visitor from Alpha Centari (thanks Justin (: ), cabin and fire have no meaning. If you're writing for your standard bread N/A - European reader, those two words create the scene, and all the writer has to do is fill in some of the gaps; what kind of cabin, how big is it, what's it made of that kind of thing. The reader from AC, however is gonna need the full explanation, wood structure blah blah blah.



Also, IMO, the hardest words in the world to deal with are adverbs and adjectives. Here's an example of building on a lowly noun to help create a scene.



Car



Red car



Red sports car



Red sports car convertable



Red sports car convertable, sleek body lines



Red sports car convertable, sleek body lines, leather interior



Red sports car convertable, sleek body lines, leather interior, bucket seats that fit the contours of the driver's body like a lover.



Now, this is a bit thick (and also off the top of my head), but I think it gives an example of how descriptive writing can tell you something about the scene. As a reader, how would you feel, what would you see - who would you expect to be driving this car. In doing this, you can create an expectation in the reader and either go with the "standard" type, or throw the reader off and put someone different behind the wheel - whatever you do, you give the reader information.



I don't know if there's such a thing as a "book of adverbs and adjectives," but there should be - and if anyone knows of such a resource ... I am most definitely all ears!!



Cheers!!

Patches

Our wedding vows: Life Love Everlasting, Always Intertwining. - Sunday June 27, 2004 :)

Great thread, Patches!



My ramble:



What motivates me? I’m not sure. To be honest, feedback from others is a great help.



There’s also that crazy notion of creation. Through writing, I can make a world, populate it with anyone that I can dream-up, and let them relate to each other. It sounds so easy, doesn’t it?



Reading Fanfic got me started on the notion of writing. I read some GREAT stuff right here on the kitten-board. Eventually, I mustered the courage to try a stab at it myself. I figured: Given a common language, how difficult can the communication of ideas be?



Wrong! Absolutley wrong!



Writing is the toughest form of expression, hands-down. I can read/write/play music, I can even scribble a few line drawings here and there, and they’re much easier means of expression than prose—by far.



It’s that difficulty that confounded me. Frustrated me. Haunted me. It seems so simple when you read the work of a skilled author. It’s easy to overlook that what you’re reading may have taken years to perfect, years to edit and hone, maybe a decade or more just to leave the creator’s mind and spill onto paper-- in a raw form—from start to finish.



What motivates me? When I re-read something that I wrote a year ago and want to cry due to how horrible it is. It means that I’ve grown, matured, developed. I hope that some day the passages that I currently consider my best will look deplorable



One thing… Though. I may regret wording, pace, punctuation, lame language, etc, I always get a little smile when I see the ideas hidden under the clumsy prose. I think of how easy it would be to fix them. Make them palatable for more readers. Make them clearer and give them lasting impact.



Publishing… There’s the political angle.



Who can I sell this to?-- That’s what the editor is thinking. She/he doesn’t care about anything more in the long-run. It’s a wicked, brutal, unfair business (from what I’ve read, at least.) Plenty of truly gifted works end up in the slush pile. Plenty more are in the slush merely because the subject is deemed to ‘risky’ or something of the like. If I ever do submit, I’ll be as happy as a pig in s**t if they reject it for the content and not the delivery. Maybe that’s the wrong goal to have? I don’t really care.



I write because I have stories to tell, worlds to build and explore, and the need to share them with as many who are willing to listen as possible.



-SQ

There are times when I've felt compelled to post something rather than wait for the story to speak to me. I've since changed that philosophy and found that it makes a difference. I rarely use outlines for ANYTHING. I write down bits and pieces of thoughts occasionally if I am not near a keyboard where I can make my ideas a reality. I rarely plan ahead either. For me, I can't just outline things and draw up detailed maps about how my chapters are going to be. I usually can only write when the mood strikes or when inspiration gives me a nudge. Mostly, I sit down in front of a blank document in Word and just start typing (or I sit and stare at the screen for a few minutes, whichever comes first). I tend to write best with music on in the background mostly because music very much a part of me. It is integrated with my soul and really helps me to focus, depending on the type of music. I don't really research all that much except for when I want to use particular things. I think some of my best work has been unplanned and unforced. But I realise that not everyone is like that and there are far better writers than I who must have organization.



I really am a feedback slut. Mostly because the first time I tried to write W/T fic (for example), it was such a bust that I couldn't even bear to look at it. I burned it as soon as I could. This time around, though, I forsook the traditional method of writing. I found that, when I had someone beta for me, I wound up writing like THEY would write or what they would do instead of writing like ME or putting my own mark upon the work. I felt myself using another person's viewpoint just to have people like the work instead of keeping my own ideas. After freeing myself from the constraints of what was deemed "proper" by some chosen online few (sorry this is much more of a fanfic thing that an Original Fic thing so you might want to ignore that last bit), I feel much more relieved and content with my work. I'm actually happy to go back and read what I've written because it sounds much more relaxed than the uptight stuff I was writing before. As a reader, I even read others' comments but, in the main, they do not affect my observation of the works at hand. I have my own opinions and observations them (things I've written in the past).



I attempted to use a Beta once before. She was a lawyer who had never written before in her life. I never did that again. Her suggestions sounded good until I attempted to actually put them into practice. I found that her thoughts had intruded into my own and somehow my vision for the story got altered in such a way that it was no longer mine. Needless to say, the story fell so flat that I shudder every time I go back and look on it. I keep it around as a reminder to always follow my gut when it comes to writing.



Although I've only posted a few stories here and there, I've been writing for many years. I don't use a beta in earnest now and I find that it makes me feel very free, liberated. Now I just write when it flows (and when my muse is behaving her damn self ) and the words come easier. As far as beta readers are concerned, I only talk to a select few people to bounce ideas off them. I correct my own grammar and spelling and such...which is the only reason I ever really saw a need for a "beta reader". But that's as far as I go with using betas. My writing is just too personal for me and I don't take criticism well from people who a) can't really be inside my head to know what I'm thinking when I write a story and b) who want to "change" my style. Like I said previously, I feel free and uninhibited without a beta because I don't feel like I have to impress anyone or prove something to them. *shrug* Apparently, I have issues. When chatting with others about my ideas for a fic and/or the direction I am taking for a fic, I tend to examine all ideas, see which ones I think mesh well with the story at hand and then discard anything else I feel won't work. I always go with my gut because it's never steered me wrong thus far.



I just happen to be weird and quirky and odd and perhaps a little unschooled. I like where I am at this stage of my writing....it feels comfortable and natural and free....I couldn't ask for anything more than that.



As far as the politics of writing...that's a very odd turn of phrase, at least IMHO. I guess there is some sort of political machination to have your work published. I guess I'm not at that stage yet where it would affect or even interest me. Online publishing seems to have its advantages though; relatively quick feedback, a more intimate venue in which to showcase your writing (not like the constipated dog-and-pony show brick and mortar publishers nake you go through and then they want to have the rights to your work..not bloody likely with me) and no deadlines or strict timelines that one must adhere to; thus I feel that the Internet is a far more relaxed medium for showcasing one's work. But what do I know, I still overuse adverbs

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

On outlining, I do do some outlining but it's rather ad hoc. Actually I do my outlining when I'm writing in the same way as I do when I'm programming. I'll write a series of comments about what I want the story/program to do and then fill them in later. I have to work like this as I'm a slow writer and I come up with ideas for scenes faster than I can write them down, so I need to leave reminders for myself.



On research, I don't do much research for my writing. If there's a detail I'm not sure about then I'll do enough research to be able to lend my story an air of authenticity rather than be able to include the minute details about the subject.



As an example in a W/T fic I'm working on I had Willow and Tara adopt Dawn. In order to be able to write it I did some general fact finding on the net about the procedures for gay couples adopting children. In another story I had a ghoul as the monster. Before writing it I spend a couple of hours in the library going through encyclopedia's on mythology in order to get some information on ghouls. In both cases the feedback I've received has told me that these details helped people to connect to the story and made it a better story.



On Betaing, I've had a different experience than Kieli, though beta's can vary greatly in quality. I was lucky in that the person I got to beta my first few stories was very good at it. She pointed out ways I could improve my story without trying to impose to her own style on me. Also as well as pointing out the things I'd gotten wrong she also pointed out what I'd gotten right, which helped stop me from deciding I was rubbish and giving up.



One area where having a beta was invaluable was in my first W/T stories I had a tendency to make the characters sound a bit too British. Having an American read over the story really helped with that.



In a story I'm posting on the Pens I was recently reminded of the importance of a beta reader. I'm writing an Uber fic set in the Babylon 5 universe and haven't been having it beta read. I recently included a character in it who had died in B5. Now this mistake has turned out to be a good thing as it helped me think of some interesting plot twists, but at the time it was rather embarassing.



But since the quality of a beta reader can vary so dramatically you do need to be careful about who you choose. The only adivce I can think of is to choose a beta reader who has done some writing themselves.



Another reason to get used to working with a beta is that if you ever do decide to publish your work then you're going to have to work with an editor on the story and I imagine that working with a professional editor will be a lot stricter than working with an amateur beta reader.

A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight. -JMS

Outlines—In some ways, they fill me with dread, the way that homework used to years (way too many of them) ago. BUT, they can be useful, and even a little liberating to your creativity.



I’ve outlined. I’ve crumpled them into unrecognizable little origami boulders. I’ve followed them, revised them, strayed from them, and turned to them for guidance. The purpose of an outline is to force your unstructured creative impulses into a logical framework. Ideas are free flowing (sometimes more than others,) changing, evolving. Ideas don’t make stories, though. It’s the crafted presentation of ideas that make a story. An outline is one way to ‘sketch’ presentation and test the solidity of those ideas.



I’ve read a lot about plot and structure. The consensus seems to be-- Use outlines in the early stages, throw them away once you’re rolling. I understand the wisdom behind that. I even half-agree with it based on my own limited experience.



Outlines are like a rough sketch-- Showing just enough shape to be recognizable, yet lacking the necessary detail for the appreciation of others. To have that basic story-shape realized—even in a crude form—can free a writer to concentrate on details i.e. the meat of their story. Of course, this is only true if the outline follows a workable dramatic structure, and adheres to the necessary principles of scene and exposition delivery.



I view outlines as a starting point, a test-bed for story ideas, and little more than that. If you chose not to outline, and your work has great structure, then don’t bother with them. If your ideas are sound, but your delivery waters-down their impact from what you expected in the end state, then your structural skills may benefit from the no-frills test of ideas that outlines provide.



I’ve read that outlines are of the greatest benefit to those just starting to learn the craft, and become less important as skills develop. My experience has led me to believe that this could be the case indeed.



A story is the ‘verbalization’ of an idea. The quality of a story is dependant not so much on the idea(s) as on presentation. Presentation is the difference between amateur and pro work. It’s that simple. Someone who’s never written before may have a great idea, greater than anything ever published, but if it’s not delivered properly, it’s cast aside. An experienced author may be pushing a hackneyed, overplayed, or blasé notion through their latest work, but if presented well, it will be read, recognized, and appreciated.



A beginner needs all of the tools available to make up for their lack of presentation skill and experience. If these tools are used properly AND with measurable effect, then the beginner’s ideas stand a greater chance of being delivered in the most compelling, least conspicuous manner.



Try an outline. If you, your own harshest critic, can see a positive effect on your delivery, then continue to use them--- in whatever capacity makes sense.



-SQ

I don't think in neat little compartmentalized pieces of thought such as outlines. I know how to use them, I've spent 12 years of Catholic school learning the rules of grammar and what not. *shrug* I don't like them, I can't think that way. Every time I've tried to use an outline, I've wound up scrapping the whole deal and just going with my gut. It works for me. I'm not a pro nor do I claim to be. I write because it's fun. To me, using an outline takes all of the creativity and fun out of the exploration of an idea. I like to see where some random thought takes me. If it doesn't pan out, then I pitch it. Like I said, probably makes me a unschooled hack but I LIKE being an unschooled hack.



I often find it interesting that pros break many of these so-called rules and hailed as geniuses. Some purists may not think that of them but, then again, often the purists haven't been published. A bit of jealousy there? Possibly. Take for instance, a poet like e.e. cummings (whose fascination with lower case letters and lack of proper punctuation often drove me mad). He's hailed as a poetic genius, yet he took very creative license in creating his works. One has to wonder, who decides what is creative license and what is just merely amateurish? Maybe it's politics, or maybe just personal preference.

Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

As I said I use outlines in a very ad hoc fasion. However one time when I found having a good outline useful is when having to write very quickly. This was particularly true when I was taking part in NaNoWriMo last year.



Before starting working on the story I split it up into three parts, then I split each part up into six chapters and each chapter up into ten scenes. I then wrote a short one line summary of each scene. Then when I actually started working on the story this allowed me to write a lot faster. As it is I only just got up to 50,000 words in time, so I'm sure without this preparation I wouldn't have finished in time. As well as letting me focus on just getting the words out, having the outline meant I knew how many words I had to write for each scene.



A similar example is when I was writing the second story in the Ever After series. As I got close to the end I began to struggle with the story. So I repeated the process I had done with NaNoWriMo. I split the final chapters up into scenes and then wrote short summaries of each scene, and this helped me to finish the story off. I think I'd probably still be writing it if I hadn't done that.



I once heard of someone claim that you can't be considered a good programmer if you don't use the so called Hungarien notation for variable names. I found this a rather odd statement since I consider hungarian notation an abomination and would never use it. Some people find hungarian notation to be useful and others don't just like some people find outlining useful and others don't. You can't call someone an unschooled hack for not using outlines any more than you can call some one a bad programmer for not using hungarian notation.



In the end writing is like any other craft. You use the tools which you are comfortable with and discard the ones which you're not.



As to why some people breaking the rules is considered artistic genius while others breaking them is hackish, in the book The Thieves of Time by Terry Pratchet there's a line "Rules are there to make you think before breaking them." which I think applies to writing. Basically there is nothing wrong with breaking the rules of writing but you should know why you are and what affect you hope to achieve. I'd say a when a professional breaks the rules it's because they want to achieve a specific effect which they couldn't get through following the rules, while amateurs break them because they don't know any better.

A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight. -JMS

Justin has made some great points about the tools and rules. I couldn’t have said them better or clearer.



On writing—



I’ve been in a really bad mood for four days. I’ve been short with people. On several occasions, someone’s asked me if ‘everything’s okay.’



“Sure. I’m fine,” I’d reply in complete honesty.



Everything is okay for me. But then, why would they bother asking? Maybe I’m missing something. Have I buried a memory? Am I losing my mind? Why have I been so down?



The answer came to me at last: I’m miserable because one of my main characters is miserable.



I left her in a terrible state of mind. I entered her state of mind in order to write about it. I didn’t feel it happening. I didn’t mean to do it. I’ve had stories affect my reality before, but only from reading them. The author always provided a way out of the dark into which they had led me. As a writer, it’s all on me to create the best, most meaningful way out. I’m struggling-- for my dear character and myself. I know we’ll get out of it eventually…



Has this ever happened to anyone else? If so, please share your experience.



A musician may feel blue after singing/playing a sad song. A painter can walk out into the sunshine (or rain if they prefer,) and escape whatever melancholy they’re putting onto canvas. An actor needs to get ‘into character’ for a scene… If it’s a sad or depressing scene, does it stay with them long after the shoot or play is over?



Authors and poets have to submerge far deeper, drawing not only from the pain in their personal past, but also properly wallow in the fictitious pain of the characters and works that they create. I wonder if you could write yourself into such a dismal place that you could never write your way out of it…



-SQ



PS… Sorry about the downer. It’s just where my character and I are right now.

Okay, I start a thread, go away for a week or two to contemplate my navel, I mean write, and I’m now faced with an awful lot of material to synthesize.



First: Outlines – hate, hate, hate them! with a passion my limited vocabulary cannot express. The most I will do is scribble a few word down, maybe a key phrase or bit of information I don’t want to lose, beyond this, na-uhn. I’m not sure if this shows in my writing, but I mostly make it up as I go along. I suppose, somewhere the writer in me is sitting at a desk in a cramped room, surrounded by books and an overflowing wastepaper basket, busily writing out form and structure, plot twists and characterizations. However, I never let her get in the way of the story. Sometimes I start a story from an idea in my head, something that’s played around with my psyche. Might be an emotion, a character, or an event that sparks my interest. Most of the time, however, I just sit in front of the computer and stare at the screen for a moment, let my body crawl into the zone and make way for the writer to emerge and take her rightful. The writing process is a creation, a work in progress, and when one finally tires of it, has the words “The End” tacked on after the last period. This is my outline. When the writer shows up and I go away, the world becomes a marvellous place. My greatest struggle is not figuring out where the story will go; it’s remembering where it’s been, tying in and up loose ends. My only experiences with “formal” outlining were utter disasters (one even cost me a shot at grad school). So my philosophy is, if formula and structure work, go with it, but don’t let the creative process be sublimated by the need to conform. For me, I just write; sometimes I know where I’m going, while other times, I fill up the tank, drive on a whim and map the story as I go creating the big picture from the myriad of smaller ones already in existence.



Second: Rules. “Know the rules, and break them when it is right to do so.” This, from my grammar instructor, I think I talked a little about in a reply to SQ. Next summer, after I complete my certificate course, I’m planning on retaking the grammar component, and will continue to take those damned boring, dry, technical courses until I understand how to manipulate language. I write by “ear,” working through language and structure until I find the right combination of words that bring the world of fantasy into reality, at least on paper; it takes a long time. Perhaps more training, more reading, more writing will shorten this process. I also believe it’s possible to get too mired in the technical aspects of writing, things that make the work sound, well mechanical. I think we should know how things work, but often this comes from reading good writers, analysing their work, puzzling through why a particular scene works so well. As the 19th century essayist John Ruskin said, “read good books.” I’m a storyteller, struggling to be a writer, with hopes one day of being an author.



Third: Separation anxiety. SQ: “The answer came to me at last: I’m miserable because one of my main characters is miserable. Has this ever happened to anyone else? If so, please share your experience.”



Okay, I have to laugh … how the hell do I answer this. Method writing anyone?? :o God, where’s that ice truck when you really need it? LOL I’ll be back with more later. It's late and I'm seriously feeling the effects of sleep deprivation.



Peace all!!

Patches

Our wedding vows: Life Love Everlasting, Always Intertwining. - Sunday June 27, 2004 :)

Why is it so easy to forgive professionals when they break the rules?



There’s a simple answer to that-- There are two sets of rules.



One cast is concrete, overt, easy to spot, and easiest to break while still delivering a great story. Grammar, punctuation, sentence-structure, spelling, and other mechanical elements of delivery are the easiest to forgive when abandoned.



Why?



Because if the other, more complex, abstract, macro-rules are adhered to, then the story is still a story, regardless of the dismissal or embrace of the concrete rules. What are these macro-rules? Plot, structure, pace, description, style—The command and understanding if these elements is what separates most amateurs from pros.



“Plot? Structure? Sounds like a formula… I hate formulae,” you say.



Well, that’s good to hear. These rules are abstract. Their realization defies formula or methodic construction. Many have tried to create formulae based on these principles. All have failed. It’s not some form that you can ‘plug’ ideas into. It’s unique and dynamic-- a custom fit for each story.



Strive above all else to understand these abstract rules. They’re the important ones. They’re about tension and release. Peaks and valleys. Shape—Macro-shape. They’re the hardest rules to understand due to their intangible essence, but they’re the most important to the telling of a story. If THESE rules are abandoned, books close. That simple.



Example: Read “Flowers for Algernon.” The narrative voice--through journal entry--starts with terrible spelling and grammar. Descriptions are relayed through vague and simple language--Simpler than a children’s book. Why do we keep reading? Because, despite the concrete, overt rules of writing being broken, our brains recognize a coherent dramatic structure unfolding below the surface. The whole length of the story could have sustained the moronic voice and poor grammar. We would stay with it because of the plot and structure tucked beneath the surface. It’s a great example completely abandoning the concrete rules, and relying solely on the abstract ones.



My point:



Understand that two sets of rules are in-play. If you’re going to wax poetic, then break the CONCRETE rules all that you want. Screw grammar. F*** punctuation. Douse it with adverbs! Do what feels right! It’s safe, even fun, to break these rules. Most of them have decayed noticeably in the last thirty years anyway. If you chose to break the ABSTRACT rules then you’re literally subverting your own efforts to tell a story. Understanding and applying the abstract rules of plot, dramatic structure, pacing, and description is the best way to liberate your voice and free your mind to explore it’s own limits. When you appreciate the principles of plot and structure, you no longer have to waste your time poring over sagging spots and slow passages trying desperately to fix them… You’ll know exactly what’s wrong with them. Eventually, you’ll be able to fix them the right way, rather than punch-up your adverbs or cloud your prose with flowery embellishment to make up for a ‘boring’ or ‘slow’ stretch. These tactics will never be able to remedy the underlying shortcoming. They only distract readers further from the story.



My $0.02



-SQ

I thought this was the best place to put this. Although it's not a serious treatise on writing, they are excerpts from what could be future writers of America. They're analogies extracted from essays from real high school kids, and you either have to think it's so sad and pray they don't pursue a career in writing, or that they're incredibly clever and funny people who may have hour-long lines someday for book signings. For my piece of mind, I like to assume the latter.



Her face was a perfect oval, like a circle that had its two sides gently compressed by a Thigh Master.



His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free.



He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a guy who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at high schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it.



She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room temperature Canadian beef.



She had a deep, throaty, genuine laugh, like that sound a dog makes just before it throws up.



Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever.



He was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree.



The revelation that his marriage of 30 years had disintegrated because of his wife's infidelity came as a rude shock, like a surcharge at a formerly surcharge free ATM.



The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling ball wouldn't.



McBride fell 12 stories, hitting the pavement like a Hefty bag filled with vegetable soup.



Her hair glistened in the rain like a nose hair after a sneeze.



Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced across the grassy field toward each other like two freight trains, one having left Cleveland at 6:36 p.m. traveling at 55 mph, the other from Topeka at 4:19 p. m. at a speed of 35 mph.



They lived in a typical suburban neighborhood with picket fences that resembled Nancy Kerrigan's teeth.



John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who had also never met.



He fell for her like his heart was a mob informant and she was the East River.



Even in his last years, Grandpappy had a mind like a steel trap, only one that had been left out so long, it had rusted shut.



Shots rang out, as shots are wont to do.



The plan was simple, like my brother-in-law Phil. But unlike Phil, this plan just might work.



The young fighter had a hungry look, the kind you get from not eating for a while.



He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck, either, but a real duck that was actually lame, maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.



The ballerina rose gracefully en pointe and extended one slender leg behind her, like a dog at a fire hydrant.



It was an American tradition, like fathers chasing kids around with power tools.



He was deeply in love. When she spoke, he thought he heard bells, as if she were a garbage truck backing up.



Her eyes were like limpid pools, only they had forgotten to put in any pH cleanser.



She walked into my office like a centipede with 98 missing legs.



It hurt the way your tongue hurts after you accidentally staple it to the wall.

Tossing this out there for you all to ponder. (Ignore all grammar and spelling mistakes, please. It's late, I'm tired and frustrated beyond words)



I'm taking a class, Beginning Novel Writing. So, having written 2/3 of a novel, I dusted it off and brought it in.



Gee, can you say gutted????? Okay, here's my actual point - or question. All I've read for the past two-and-a-half years are lesbian romance or mystery/romance novels. Nothing produced by or for the main stream (straight) market.



Now, is it me, or do queers just write differently from the mainstream. As you guys know, I like and utalise descriptive writing and often fill in a lot of motion/action into dialogue scenes. I kid you not - 80% of it is being pretty much stroked off the page by the instructor (who has a masters in English and has sold her second book - she has creds, she's also straight). I know the odd time, I do get a little lost in the "surroundings" but the setting is so much a part of the story, that to take it out feels like she's pulled my story apart at the seems.



So, if any of you are readers of mainstream fiction, does anything you read have as heavy an emphasis on setting and dialogue action/movement with the characters?



Enquiring (and soon to give up writing forever) minds want to know...



cheers!!

Patches.

Our wedding vows: Life Love Everlasting, Always Intertwining. - Sunday June 27, 2004 :)

Do queers write differently than straights?



Possibly, but not likely. Good examples to bolster this assertion can be found right here on the kittenboard. No, really… Think about it for a second. Peruse the Pens archive. It’s loaded with an extremely diverse variety of styles and deliveries for (often) the same basic stories. Some are heavy on description, others scant. Some have page after page of dialogue, yet others are mostly narration. There’s action and suspense right next to angst and mush (no offense to the mushers—I like mush.) This body of works are the product of often untrained, amateur writers who are motivated in large part by a simple (yet strong) passion to create and share stories. The lack of experience, training, or acumen allows an unfiltered, more direct rendering of the minds of these writers. With that in-mind, are there any proclivities of literary license that are unique to the (assumed to be at least 50% queer) writers of the kittenboard? Other than the most common subject matter?



I can’t quantify them if there are…



Your writer’s eye—your expression of viewpoint—is different than anyone else’s. As a person—not a writer--you see details that others may ignore as irrelevant. As a writer, you will therefore be inclined to paint your details from that personal perspective, and you’d feel like your leaving out important information if you didn’t. That’s natural.



Can details bog-down a story? You betcha.

Does that mean that they should be included sparingly? No.



Details of the faces, bodies, settings, air temperature, scratchy tags on underwear, sticky cheeks after gorging on watermelon—They’re all important, of course. But they will appear unimportant and irrelevant without the proper delivery. Part of that delivery relies on story-relevance. Story relevance is an amorphous concept-- defiant of formula, litmus-test, or any known algorithm.



Does your description set a mood?

Does your description reveal something that the narrative can’t?

Does your description reveal something in a much better way than the narrative? (showing vs. telling?)

Does your description slow the story? (that’s the toughest one to answer(for your own work, not so much for the works of others,) BTW)

Is the delivery of your description the weak-point, not the description itself?



There are no solid answers to these questions. If there were, then there’d be a lot of great writers, and few amateurs.



What I’m having so much trouble saying is that style is a double-edged sword. Styles are comfortable. They’re mental pathways etched into the writer’s brain. That’s why they’re the flavor that pervades beneath the surface of each piece served-up by a given author. Because of this burnt-in schema, it’s not likely that any author will waver much from its use. They can, however, learn to leverage and control it, keep it in-check for the sake of an audience.



That is to say that for every great literary or mainstream novel, there’s a fair chance that the author had to keep themselves from indulging too heavily in the extremes of their own style in order to satisfy their readership. Is that oppression? Yes… Self-oppression. It’s one of the huge differences you’ll find between professional and amateur writers—the ability to regulate the creative spew for the sake of propulsion and readability.



Do I think you describe too much? Not really. Not for my taste, or the tastes of many others, I’m sure. I like to hear the absence of 60-cycle hum. I like the narrator’s eyes to be fixed on someone’s mouth and the way it changes shape as she speaks. I want to feel the frozen rain nearly tearing into my cheeks while struggling toward shelter.



Your professor—her tastes are different. That’s not to say that she’s full of @#%^ and you’re doing all the right things. Just understand that her criticism of detail level may not be rooted in the fact that the details are there, just in how obvious their delivery may be. In other words, she may be striking them out because they aren’t camouflaged properly into the narrative, not because they don’t belong there.



That’s my (long-winded—sorry) $.02



You’re a great writer. Someday, you’ll become a greater writer… Patience, practice, and discipline.



ETA: Oh yeah, I left something out...



Patience, practice, discipline, and--every now and then--a good, stiff drink.







-SQ

Edited by: StrangeQuark at: 2/15/05 11:41 am

Hey all,



This seemed the place for this...it's official. I am now a writer. My first rejection letter came in the mail today. *sniff*



Form letter, but the editor addressed the salutation by hand and it was signed with a hand written, "Thanks for submitting" scribbled on the bottom. (You know, given the nature of the anthology...there's a very funny pun in there somewhere )



Oh well, I was wicked sick, and up to my eyeballs in alligators at work. Maybe next time - These stories, as I promised, will make an appearance in Inward Eye in the next little bit.



Cheers!!

Patches.



And SQ - I had a wonderful reply written to your post a while back -- either ezboard or windows ate it. Thank you for the info. I am learning...and learning, and one day [dot] [dot] [dot].

Our wedding vows: Life Love Everlasting, Always Intertwining. - Sunday June 27, 2004 :)

Yeah it is disappointing when you get a rejection letter. Had a few myself.

Good Luck with your writing.

Sorr y to hear bout getting all these rejection letters SJ and Patches. I think thats the park that scares me about writting. I love it, i live for it. I'm always either doing poetry or adding on to a story i've started, i had them out to people (ok friends) i think wud b interesed and get nice FB from them and of course the lovely people here in the kitten board...But i still can't get out there and actually post one out to a publisher. I'm too scared lol. Not a good quality for a budding writter i know...



but i have been threatened into at least trying by the end of the year by some evil i mean loving friends . I made a mini book of poems and a short story i had written for my bf for his birthday and they watched me make it and read some of them. Suddenly it was passed round the common room and everyone was going 'they're good' so i felt happy. Then it was 'publish them by the end of the year of else' or 'if they don't accept them then we'll get em for you'... But i had the thought of getting those rejection letters. *shakes head* i need to buck up the courage and post em...to who i don't know. Another block in my writting career. I have no idea where to post them to, gah. must check that book i have again of publishers in the UK...heh Its either that or the music business, which is 100 times harder to break into these days...

I love the career, hate the choices and the 'maybe's' surrounding them. blarg, leaving...



Jess xxx

'You're my angel of salvation, and hope, and strength...your my multi-angel'-Jay (My baby)

"Denial, Party of one, You're table's ready"-Spud

]|My Anime Site|[

Good Luck with your Writing.

If you check out The Writer's Yearbook that'll give you good advice and address of Publishers ect.

I did a Screenwriting Course which was very useful,as it's helped me structure my scripts better.

I wrote a short film script which when I workshopped it in class everybody liked.

It's good that your friends give you encouragement and positive feedback,keep writing.

Okay, this is going to take a little getting used to...everything's in the wrong place over here!!!

Just wanted to "break in" the new board and have a wander around for a bit. Just a few small adjustments, but everything looks pretty much like it did on ezboard. I hope everyone wanders over.

Recent news...I have a story in the Canadian Author's Association short story contest, awaiting rejection. I'm also going to send a few poems out to test the poetry market. What spurred this little decision was finishing my poetry class. Although final marks haven't been released (things like those pesky participation marks), I'm pretty certain I have over 95% - if my guestimation is correct...I think I got 99.5%
Okay, ya, I'm kinda boasting (a lot). Friday also marked the "official" end of the writer's certificate progam I started in Jan '04 (tempest fugit - or what). Though I'll continue to take classes to beef up my writing skills (although, I've totally given up on learning to spell - give me spell check or give me death!!!)

So I've been told (by published writers): the only writers who never publish are the ones who give up. Write, write, write, write and then write more - send stuff out, collect rejection letters and keep writing until the acceptance file full (then start on a new one).

Anyway ... looking forward to reading everyone's work on the "new" board.

Cheers!!
Patches.

What a terrific thread! It seems to be going over a lot of things raspberryhat and I were talking about as we developed Beta Pens. We originally had thoughts of including Inward Eye fiction in the Beta forum, but it was suggested we wait to see how the forum did with just W/T fiction. Pity that, but we're both hoping it takes off well enough to include original fiction from here too. I'm currently building a new character through vignettes and short scenes and hopefully will start a thread here soon to get reactions to her. I'd like to lengthen it out into a novel for possible publication. In the interum, I keep scribbling at W/T fic and entering (and losing) fic contests. Why in the world is something this frustrating this much fun?

_________________
Learning to be unrepentantly me.