The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe - Willow & Tara Forever

General Chat  || Kitten  || WaV  || Pens  || Mi2  || GMP  || TiE  || FAQ  || Feed - The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe

All times are UTC - 8 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:39 am 
Interesting retrospective on the series with a short interview w/JMS at the end.



filmforce.ign.com/article...819p1.html

Ben



"Never be discouraged from being an activist because people tell you that you'll not succeed. You have already succeeded if you're out there representing truth or justice or compassion or fairness or love."

-- Doris 'Granny D' Haddock



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:02 pm 
I tried that link and just got an advert for Farcry, and neither of the buttons would work :gnome



Still I've been thinking about a B5 thread but have never gotten round to it.



B5 is my all time favourite series. I wasn't too keen on it first started. It wasn't until the episode "Babylon Squared" which featured the return of Babylon 4 that I started to get the impression that it was more than just a Star Trek clone.



Of course the 5th series was something of a let down, but I think there were still a lot of good points and it was better than it could have been given the production problems they had (such as the show being cancelled and then renewed with a drastically reduced budget and Claudia Christian leaving).



Sleeping in the light was a brilliant conclusion to the series and I think the Shadows are the evil alien race that all other evil alien races should be measured against.



and I'm starting to get a bit carried away, so I think I'll stop.



There's more than one way to do it. - The Perl mantra



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:06 pm 
Justin, you weren't getting carried away... just echoing what a lot of people think... so keep carrying on about B5, 'cause I agree!! It's one of the best, if not the best.



ETA: the link worked for me ... try again..

skittles



If you tell a joke in the forest and nobody laughs, was it a joke?

Edited by: skittles at: 4/13/04 3:10 pm


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:05 pm 
I think that J Michaal Stazisky led the way to the future of genre shows by creating an overall story arc for the series. it's a shame that he didn't have the guaranteed 5 seaons to do it and had to finish it 4th season. That didn't leave much for 5th season. still I think he had alot of artistic integrity in planning an end to his story. I wish more genre show creaotrs would do that rather than leave it on till it rots.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:12 pm 
Ah, Babylon 5... my first internet-based TV obsession. :) I remember scouring the net for posts from British fans who had seen the season-ending episodes each year when the WB held them back until Fall.



I have many personal memories of B5, too. For a time I kept up an email correspondence with John Copeland, JMS's Producer and all-around right-hand man. I told him about the campaign to get B5 recognized by Viewers for Quality Television. He offered me advice on how to get into the TV writing biz, and even referred me to a couple of agents. Oh, and I got a character named after me in an episode of Crusade (and played by Brian Thompson, no less!) :grin



JMS would show up for a big presentation at the LA Science Fiction Convention in Burbank every year. The line to get in stretched halfway around the building. One year, we were all standing there waiting, in many cases for a couple of hours in advance, when JMS drove in. Instead of going straight into the building, he stopped to talk to all of us. A few of us got a fun idea and started yelling, "Hey! No cutting! Go to the end of the line!" The best part was that he did. He walked all the way to the end of the line, where he was handed the sign that said, "This is the end of the line," and he stood there holding it for a few minutes while people took his picture.



JMS is like that. He respects and values his fans. When the fire marshalls had to turn away people from his presentation at the 1996 WorldCon in Anaheim, he gave an entire second presentation for the people who hadn't been able to get in (and for some of us who went to both). He never saw his fan base as something that existed purely for his amusement and manipulation, unlike some Executive Producers I could mention. :rolleyes

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child

Edited by: BBOvenGuy  at: 4/13/04 7:15 pm


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:56 pm 
I expect Garner will be along here shortly... ;)



We have talked endlessly about B5. I never watched, I'd try to catch it a couple of times and always managed to watch the same episode. Plus B5 always got under the skin of die hard Trekkers like me. I think it was some of the seemingly purposefull slams against Trek.



But I would go to the B5 usenet groups and there were tons of posts by JMS there. I read a few. He struck me at first as someone very arrogant, but as I read them I saw he was just very passionate about his vision and did not mind hanging around and hashing it out with the viewers.



Name me one other Producer/Director/Writer/Creature/Autuer that will do that? Here's the answer, none.



While I never watched B5, I do have a healthy respect for it and it's creator. Enough that I will be giving the DVDs a look over when I can. Gotta watch all the Farscape ones first.



I also admit casting wise B5 was solid. I never liked Sheridan or Sinclair from what I saw. But Claudia Christensen, Jerry Doyle, Andrea Thompson and Pat Tallman are among my favorite people on the planet. Esp Patricia Tallman.



But who was that cold hearted hag that played Na'Toth. Good lord what a bitch. ;)



Yeah, good thread and I look forward to reading more.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

Coming Soon to The Other Side, The Netbook of Shadows: A Book of Spells for d20 Witches


"I’m so glad that I know more than I knew then.

Gonna keep on tryin’ till I reach the highest ground."
- Stevie Wonder, "Higher Ground"

Edited by: WebWarlock at: 4/14/04 4:38 am


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:12 pm 
JMS and the arc was one reason for B5's success, but let's not forget casting. Besides the hotness that is Claudia Christian :drool , the show was immeasurably helped by having old pros like Bill Mumy, Stephen Furst, Peter Jurasik, and the faboo Andreas Katsulas (one of the greatest voices on TV, IMO). Mira Furlan was a real find, and Jerry Doyle was solid (loved his ex, Andrea Thompson, when she was on as "Talia Winters." Talia/Ivanova 4 Ever!). Even in the "non-arc" eps, the cast made B5 worth tuning in for.



GG Among major cast members, only Bruce Boxleitner I found less than compelling. Out



The ep Z'hadum in particular rocked.



Favorite Ivanovisms:



Pretty S2 flyboy: "But Commander, there's something out there!"

Ivanova: "Yes, there's something out there. There's also something in here . . . me, giving you a direct order!"



Ivanova: [holographically looking at Capt. Sheridan, seemingly about to have sex w/ corrupt Earth Alliance skank] "Captain, it looks like you're about to go where everyone's gone before." :lol



[More or less practicing Jew] Ivanova: "Ivanova is God! [looks up] No offense."




and then, confessing to Dalenn:



Ivanova: "I think I loved Talia." :sob



ETA: Oy vey, this always happens to me: start a post, get distracted for an hour or more, come back and finish it, and by then some other Kitten will have "stolen" my thematic thunder :p (in this case "casting").



There were two Na'Toths: Julie Caitlin Brown and Mary Kay Adams (I know the names only cuz I was just over at IMDB refreshing my memory. The first was better IIRC)

Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 4/13/04 9:18 pm


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:47 am 
I really really miss B5. Have to admit, I liked Bruce Boxleitner but have always worshipped at the altar of Claudia Christian and Andrea Thompson. I think the only thing that disappointed the hell outta me was them making Talia Winters the sleeper Psi spy (ew...ok that was a bad pun). I was looking forward to a bit more Ivanova/Winters subtext. But I was a devoted fan right up until season 4. Our station in my part of Pennsylvania dropped B5 after that which really irked me to no end. I'm now anxiously socking away money to buy all of the seasons on DVD.



It was a show that I kept wishing would go on. It was a class act among sci-fi shows and I'm hoping that one day, Straczynski will put out another B5 movie. *s


Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.

Edited by: Warduke at: 4/14/04 9:28 am


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:05 pm 
Ah, Babylong 5! Yeah, I loved that show. It brings back memories of my first online experience on GEnie and JMS being on their a year before the show started, talking about the project, what he was trying to do, gathering support. He is a great man, very nice and easy to work with. It is way too bad that he got yanked around by TNT on season 5. That was almost as disappointing as Season sux was here. Almost. I loved the way G'Khar progressed from being the villain and a sort of a ladies man to a holy man in the end. That part of season 5 was very neat. And oh god were the shadow ships so Kewl!!!



He redefined Si Fi TV and Trek has never really lived up to it. JMS had a lot of reasons to be pissed at Paramount, even took them to court and won over DS 9 (sorry Trek lovers, but that was a rip off of B5. Though I will admit it was a decent show after season 2) so the slams in the show were not entirely surprising. Bob probably knows a bunch on that too.



I loved CC, she was great, I preferred Patricia Tallman over Andrea Thompson, but both were good, and Mia Furlon doesn't get enough credit. And it was great to see Walter Koenig get a role he could really excell at. I even liked Sinclair, Jeffry O'Hara's character, though Sheridan grew on me the more I saw of him. What a cool show, they certainly don't make them like that now. Josswad could have learned a lot from JMS, if he had, W/T might still be around and he might still have a show on the air.



Garner







Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:38 pm 
Oh my God, I LOVED Babylon 5.



The regular cast were fantastic. I think it's a crime that some of them didn't win emmies, they were such exceptional actors.



But let us not forget the guest stars. Especially my all time favorite - Zathras! My better half, Angela, and I still quote this charater on a regular basis. Some of my favorites:



"Zathras can never have anything nice."



"Can not say. Saying, I would know. Do not know, so can not say."



"Very sad life. Probably have very sad death, but at least thre is symmetry."



"You are finite. Zathras is finite. This is wrong tool."



I could go on for a year about all the great things on B5. Thanks for starting this tread.



deb



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5 vs DS9
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:53 pm 
I didn't think of DS9 being a B5 ripoff at first, but they definitely borrowed from B5 as time went on. They tried to copy B5's big space battles with the Dominion War, but they could never quite pull it off.



The most blatant ripoff, though, was hiring away Robert Foxworth, who had appeared on B5 as General Hague, to play a Starfleet Admiral. In fact, at WorldCon JMS showed a B5 blooper reel, and there was a scene from "Severed Dreams" where the guy from General Hague's ship arrives on the station. Sheridan and the others ask where General Hague is, and the actor looks right at the camera and says, "General Hague... is on Deep Space Nine. You've got me instead."



Of course, JMS and Majel Barrett Roddenberry tried to quell the Trek/B5 animosity by having Majel do a guest spot as the widow of the murdered Centauri Emperor. There was a fun blooper from that, too. It was a scene where Majel is supposed to exit through the door, but the stagehands couldn't get it open in time and she slammed into it. You could immediately hear the stagehands calling out, "Sorry Majel!" and Majel - a longtime Trek veteran, replied "It's okay. I'm used to it." :grin

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5 vs DS9
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:24 pm 
Quote:
Of course, JMS and Majel Barrett Roddenberry tried to quell the Trek/B5 animosity by having Majel do a guest spot as the widow of the murdered Centauri Emperor.




nitpick_mode = on



The emperor wasn't murdered, he died as a result of long term health problems (which he agravated by making the trip to B5)



nitpick_mode = off



sorry, I couldn't help myself :ashamed



There's more than one way to do it. - The Perl mantra



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5 vs DS9
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 2:26 pm 
I wish that Babylon 5 Crusade had made it as a series. The first few eps that JMS did before TNT retooled it (they wear the gray outifts) were pretty good and showed promise to me anyway. What happened to B5 should serve as a cautionary tale to folks who want to save show by having a cable network like TNT, SciFi or USA pick it up. When the show is moved to cable alot of costs have to be cut and residuals for actors and writers are lower.



I thought it was genius how the characters of G'kar and Londo made a 180 degree turn by the end of the season. It just shows that big character changes can work with good writing. It's obvious that JMS knew where he wanted to take the characters all along and built it up rather than just decide one season that this character would be bad cuz it was kewl. Given that, JMS did mess up IMHO on the internal traitor to B5. I heard that originally it was to be the second officer from the movie but was changed to Talia Winters and then Garabaldi late in the game when the actress who played Winters left. At least JMS had the excuse of actor changes beyond his control but it was still dissappointing to me.



I would love to see JMS get a chance from a network for a guaranteed 3 seasons like Trek has been getting to do a show. That way he could play out a 3 year story arc without compromises. That would be great but impossible in the current TV climate.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 4/15/04 7:35 pm


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5 vs DS9
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:14 pm 
Quote:
The emperor wasn't murdered, he died as a result of long term health problems (which he agravated by making the trip to B5)




You're right! He was going to be murdered, but he had the nerve to die first.



His Prime Minister was murdered, though.



Geez, I've been away from this show too long...

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5 vs DS9
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:07 pm 
. . . which happened (the death of the Centauri emperor) in The Coming of Shadows, one of the first truly awesome eps. :applause



GG First time we saw the Uber-kewl Shadow ships! :grin Out



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5 vs DS9
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:16 am 
Quote:
GG First time we saw the Uber-kewl Shadow ships! Out




Here we go again



nitpick_mode = on

Actually the first time we saw a shadow ship was at the end of the episode "Signs and Portents". We saw one briefly when it destroyed the raiders ship.



nitpick_mode = off



You are right about them being Uber-kewl though



There's more than one way to do it. - The Perl mantra



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:36 pm 
Warlock said:



Quote:
But who was that cold hearted hag that played Na'Toth. Good lord what a bitch.




:) After a convention-that-should-not-be-named, I started wondering if she got too much time as a militaristic Narn and lost her own self... nah, I bet she was born like that.



Babylon 5. My favorite show ever. Also my first internet fandom. And, more important, the reason behind my moving to the US. If it weren't for the help and friendship I found in a particular B5-related list (which I am still member), I don't think I would have been able to move to this country. My first roomate and still best friend (I was her maid of honor last month) was from this list. I still have great friends from the B5 fandom and I started my first website 6 or 7 years ago for Claudia Christian (being redone right now, but still alive).



I bought the tapes of the first 4 seasons (never liked s.5... without Ivanova, there's just no fun), but I can't wait to have enough money to get the DVDs.



Besides Ivanova, I really liked Gkar, Deleen, Lyta and Marcus. Like any other human being that ever watched it, I really wish Andrea Thompson hasn't left... I was *so* looking forward to the first long term lesbian romance in a sci-fi series! And with my favorite actress as part of it! Well, maybe it was better this way. I probably wouldn't have survived... :drool



I never really liked JMS, but I think the best thing about B5 was its story. A space opera like no other. And I'm still amazed at the how they produced such amazing special effects for TV more than 10 years ago using the equipment they had.



--------------------------
"She had tasted Willow on her tongue, and she had worn Willow on her skin. There wasn't a shower in the world that could have washed that away." (Terra Firma, by Tulipp)



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:17 am 
What do you mean "using the equipment they had"?



They were using Amigas, the best computer ever made ;)

There's more than one way to do it. - The Perl mantra



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:09 am 
You go, Justin :applause Apple/Mac phreaks all the way!


Time flies by when the Devil drives.
It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the end.



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:14 pm 
I used Amiga before and didn't like it, but that's a matter of opinion. :)



But, what I really meant by that was that, even the shows produced today, with all the technological advances the industry has at their disposal, don't look as good as B5 did 10 years ago.



--------------------------
"She had tasted Willow on her tongue, and she had worn Willow on her skin. There wasn't a shower in the world that could have washed that away." (Terra Firma, by Tulipp)



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:01 pm 
Of course my favorite B5 moment came from the Net.

Someone had posted in Usenet the subject "Finally, something B5 fans and Trekkers can agree on!" and the body was "That FireFly sucks!".



Made me laugh.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

Coming Soon to The Other Side, The Netbook of Shadows: A Book of Spells for d20 Witches


"Fool! Ninjas don't wear assless chaps." - Wobert, "In the Pit"



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:05 pm 
justin, even as I was writing that (first sighting of Shadow ships in The Coming of Shadows), I had a feeling I might be wrong. At the same time, I knew it was the first ep in which they made an impression, so I went w/ it.



GG And because the whole ep was just so great: G'Kar planning on killing the Centauri Emperor (then learning what the Emperor was really about), the (re)start of the Centauri/Narn War (via the Shadows, via "Mr. Morden," via Molari), the Emperor cursing Molari w/ his dying breath. Great stuff! :applause Out



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:46 pm 
I agree that The Coming Of Shadows was one of the best episodes of B5.



The thing I like the most is there seems to be a sense of inevitability about it. Even as the Emperor tries to make ammends with the narn, there seems to be a greater force working to start a war between their two races.



This all culminates in the wonderful scene between G'kar and Londo where G'kar, having been told the Emperor's intentions, offers his hand in friendship to Londo, not knowing that Londo has ordered an attack against a Narn colony.



Then there's the scene where G'kar goes after revenge against Londo, which acts as a nice reversal of a similar scene with Londo trying to kill G'kar in the first episode.



This is an episode which you can keep watching because there is so much going on in it.



There's more than one way to do it. - The Perl mantra



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:46 pm 


Babylon 5 was simply a brilliant show.



Season 3 was one of the most perfect example of television ever, everything came together, the War was in full swing and all the storylines were intergrated.



Sure Season 4 was great but had a "checklist" feel to it (Shadow War... Minbari War... Earth War...) but S3, everything was all part of one vast, complex web and it was fantastic.



- Scarecrow


"Everything is turning out so dark"



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:02 pm 
At least by and large B5 had cool character development and change without breaking the characters. That is always appreciated. And I loved Mr. Morden. That was a nice character. Season 4 was rushed and compacted, but still did a great job, for the most part. The one caveat many have is the resolution to the Shadow War was a bit too quick. Beyond JMS's control, but still a little disappointing. I agree that season 3 was the height.



My only other bitch was that I didn't like the future is set, determined and unavoidable. That philosophy has never really appealed to me, even if it is similar to the Oriental karma idea.



At least the casting was superb throughout and unlike others, JMS seems to have treated his cast well.



Garner





Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:37 pm 
Garner, I'm not sure what you mean about the future being set, determined and unavoidable. I always thought the philosophy of the show was, as the centauri seer said in Signs & Portents, that we shape the future with our deeds, with our words, and with our beliefs.



There's more than one way to do it. - The Perl mantra



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:20 am 
Every future episode, mostly in season 5, but a few in season 4, showed that the Centauri were doomed to become, what, playthings of Shadow allies, that Londo would be possessed, that Sheridan was stuck (not in the 20 years of life, but his role on Centauri prime.) I haven't watched the show in a long time, but the future visions we saw all were shown as inescapable realities, even though some of the characters had seen them and should have been able to avoid said future. To me this is similar to what they did with Terminator recently. In T2 the future was not set and was what you made of it, that was the point. Things could be avoided and improved. Then T3 comes along and you can only delay the inevitable, perhaps influence some of the little choices but not the big issues. Judgement Day was coming, it was inescapable, you live your destiny and can't escape, alter or influence it. That was a big shift and I felt at the time that B5 did the same. It, and the stupid telepath hippy commune in season 5, were what I hated most about the series. Well, that and their being janked around by the networks.



Garner





Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:55 pm 
I think I'm the only person I know who liked the telepath arc. Hmph. Go figure. :

"The stories we tell - that's us explaining how we think the world works. Once we speak it, once we say it aloud, that makes it real for us - and real for everyone else who hears it too. When we tell a story, we invite people to visit our reality. We invite them to move in. Our stories are the reality we live in." - David Gerrold, The Martian Child



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:28 pm 
I liked the telepath arc with Talia Winters but I was disappointed with the arc after that. It's a shame that JMS didn't have the five seasons to do his story without having to wrap it up 4th season and the restart 5th season due to the movie to TNT. IMHO 5th suffered from too little story to tell while 4th season had too much story. Still JMS got his story out and it was a good one.

_____________________

I still see dead lesbian cliches



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Babylon 5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:41 pm 
I also like the telepath arc with Talia. Bester was one of the best villains I've ever seen. And I always liked Lyta and her Vorlon friends. :) But I didn't like season 5 at all, not only because there was no Ivanova, but also because it seemed too dry or like it was there just to fill the time slot, like sam7777 said.



If you want to watch B5, you'll be better off just watching the first four seasons and "Sleeping in Light".



After that, be sure to watch "A Call to Arms" to have an idea how good an spin-off could be (if "Crusade" had been given more credit and support). There won't ever be another B5, but I'd really love to see something from that universe again. I'll be very happy if the rumors about a new B5 project come to life. :)





--------------------------
"She had tasted Willow on her tongue, and she had worn Willow on her skin. There wasn't a shower in the world that could have washed that away." (Terra Firma, by Tulipp)

Edited by: sheila wt at: 4/21/04 7:46 pm


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

W/T Love 24/7 since July 2000
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group