The "It's not W/T, it's Only Subtext " Thread

[xita]

We've made this thread to discuss any subtext in shows, movies etc. Feel free to post any minor subtext.

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"Everthing's just turning out so dark..."
"No, it's okay. Lost is good. Willow and I always know how to find each other!"

I

Edited by: xita  at: 7/28/02 8:18:08 pm

[post]

Yeah, the T'Pol/Hoshi scene raised my eyebrows, but it was more as a 'wow, the female characters finally get a scene together', rather than as anything sexual.

It did have a slight overture of sensuality, but that might be more from T'pol's skintight outfits than anything else...

I

[post]

It's the lesbians. It is!

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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock

I

[post]

Xita-

I definitely thought that the implication was one of romantic involvement between Ellen Rimbauer and Sukeena- see, they just got pushed too far, and it was time for the retribution! Even though, as a whole, Rose Red was sort of lame for Stephen King standards, I thought some of the performances were great, and would definitely watch it again.

love and witchiechix,

e.

I

[post]

Whats wrong with wholesome shows.....personaly i think it good to have at least a few of them on T.V......lets face it....do you realy want kids watching NYPD blue or shows with that mutch crap (violense and sutch).
And as for Smallville......they changed the original storie line to make it more modern.....if they changed it any more it wouldn't be about young Clark Kent anymore.

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extereme violence."
Vivian, "The Young Ones

I

[post]

yes....yes....they don't have subtext in Sailor moon.....BUT...they have a lesbian couple there....it's Sailor Urabus (always in men's colth) and Sailor Neptune, but they didn't show up a lot.......

How about XENA and GABRIELLE ?
They don't count in Subtext anymore???
they have never ever say that they are lovers in the show......

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited February 04, 2002).]

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[repostarchive]

Neptune and Uranus are lovers in the original Japanese versions of Sailor Moon, but those scenes get edited out when sent to the US and other places.

I

[repostarchive]

Talk about Utena
There's a lot of subtexts.First she searched for her charming prince then she wanted to be the prince herself.And what about the Rose Princess that will be Prince's forever and those motions when Utena had to pull that sword from Rose Princess's body.Ahh,that's such a sexual subtext.Or I rather say that it's a full text there.
And Utena in animated series on TV version,most of the school comittees seem to be gays.They often driven around the town at night,stop somewhere,close-up at the eyes,talk some more and the next thing I know this guy was leaning on top of the other...Hmmm,very intimate conversation there.

About Sailor Moon...Sailer Urenus and Neptune,they are very sweet couple.They showed them in bed,kissing and as far as I see it,they're pretty much stand by each other side.
Oh...and I for a minute I thought Sailer Mars confessed that she falling in love with Sailer Moon at the end. ( where they have to sacrified themselve to save each other and the world. ) Huh?nobody felt the chemistry there btw them? Alright,no subtext right? okay I got it.I guess I'm bad that way. ( Gee,I wish they would be a couple )

...Actually,it's me...I have a crush on Sailer Mars...so bad.

Do you remember that movie called " Bad girls " That have Drew Barrymore,Mary Stuart Masterson,Andy Mcdowell and Madeleine Stowe in it?Do you think there's subtext there?It's quite a long time ago,I already forgot between who and who but if you remember....
I think it's between Mary S. and Madeleine...if I'm not wrong.

Ah..and did subtext between Spice Gilrs count?
OH..I remember one time Ginger Spice kissed Baby Spice in some show.It's about 10 seconds and a tounge one! Well,that's not subtext at all!

*Fuzz*

[This message has been edited by Fuzz (edited February 05, 2002).]

I

[repostarchive]

In the movie, Fried Green Tomatoes, the lesbian storyline between Mary Stuart Masterson and Mary Louise Parker was censored into subtext. In the book and the original screenplay it was an important element of the story.

There's a great documentary on AMC called the Celluoid Closet about the history of how homosexuality is depicted in films.

I

[repostarchive]

quote:

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Originally posted by Eyes Without A Face:
How about Ivanova and Talia (the commercial telepath) on Babylon 5? There was heavy chemistry between these characters. In fact, the way Ivanova used to reject any overture from Talia and insult her initially reminds me a little of what Buffy does to Spike nowadays. Of course, this never went far because Talia's implanted personality as a Psycorps spy was made to emerge by Lita.

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I think that only barely qualifies as sub-text simply because it so nearly became full-blown text! Ivanova's remark later that "I think I loved Talia" was so heart-wrenching! Plus the fact that when Talia "stayed over" that time, and not only slept in the same bed but reached for Susan when she woke up...! Well!

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

I

[repostarchive]

An interesting bit of maybe-subtexty stuff happened on Andromeda this week. Pay attention, this is a little complex...

Trance and Bekka found themselves in the midst of a time/space distortion thing that was inserting moments and people from their pasts and futures randomly all over the ship. Bekka was rescued by a cyborg version of herself, who strode away after saying next-to-nothing. Bekka and Trance followed, only to find a very different Trance beating the cr*p out of some minion-y warrior-types. New Trance (who's gold instead of purple, btw and has a really WILD hairdo) takes one look at Bekka and says "I'd forgotten how beautiful you were."

Interesting that in the middle of a battle those were her first words. Interesting too that in the end it was New Trance who stays behind.

Maybe nothing will come of it, but then maybe something will...

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

I

[repostarchive]

quote:

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Originally posted by Zahir:
An interesting bit of maybe-subtexty stuff happened on Andromeda this week.

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Yes Zahir, i noticed that too. I had almost given up watching the show because i find the quality of writing and story line varies so wildly from episode to episode. but i may now stick around to see where this goes. besides, i recently heard that there was a 'thinning of the writing staff' so perhaps things will settle down.

I

[repostarchive]

quote:

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Originally posted by fell:
A lot of Andromeda fans thought the Magog character Rev Bem was ridiculous. He reminded me of one of those 50's B movies with the cardboard space ship on a string where the alien was a guy in a gorilla suit and a plastic helmet. It looks like they've gotten rid of him, or at least sent him off on an extended sabbatical.

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Granted the design of his appearance is odd (that nose?) and perhaps even ridiculous, but before the encounter with the Magog worldship he was fairly interesting as a character. He wasn't my favorite character (not sure I have one) but he added to the mix. Ever since the worldship though he's been different (losing the robe, for example, making him look even more ridiculous) and I haven't liked him as much. But it was the recent changes they made to him that messed him up for me, not the original character. I miss the old Rev a little but not the new one.

quote:

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Trance's tail was beyond lame and they actually had the sense to get rid of that, too. IMO the new Trance is a huge improvement. For those who don't follow the show, she not only changed from purple to gold, she went from wearing a backless purple velour catsuit to wearing space leathers and a blaster on her hip, and as Zahir mentioned, a way cool new 'do. Most remarkably, they've changed her character to be more serious, self-assured and even dangerous, increasing her coolness factor and self-respect at the same time (she's supposed to be a much older version of herself.) This was exceptionally well done, I thought. It was integral to the story which made it seem inevitable, unlike when her tail got shot off which was just dumb.

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I really liked Trance, including her tail and purple color (though they lacked sufficient room in their budget to do much with it, so most of the time her tail just hangs as a part of her costume). Part of her appeal is that just like Buffy she appears to be innocent and vulnerable, but she's really-not (though only rarely did we get to see that).

The only thing I might have liked even better is if innocent purple Trace could kick major ass (when no one who knows her is watching?), but they've given that more to the android which also works for me (Rommie was very cool in that episode where she was trying to protect a witness from forces trying to capture/kill him--presumably what you meant by the Trinity reference).

The new Trance loses the element of surprise and that Buffyness quality of toughness in a seemingly-vulnerable package. I hope I still end up liking her, but I'll miss the old Trance. If she can actually fight beyond just shooting the new blaster they could pull off the change in my view, but they have to be careful to differentiate her abilities from Rommie. (She wouldn't have Rommie's android strength or speed, but she can kinda sense future probabilities or something (they're vague about it) and adapting that to fighting she could move as if she knows how an opponent is going to attack before they do it--almost Jedi-like--if they go that way. The result might look similar to Willowvamp's fighting in Doppelgängland though presumably without the cruelty...most of the time.)

Her comment about Bekka being beautiful might have simply been due to future-Bekka having those cyborg implants for so long you forget how she used to look. But it would be nice if Trace is romanticly attracted as well.

quote:

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Three of the six Andromeda crew members are women and none of them are window dressing. They're all strong, complex and feminine (both feminist and femme.) Compare that to Enterprise which apparently has only two women in a crew of dozens, and one of them is a whiner. (The other one is apparently the original owner of the rubber "uniforms" which 7 of 9 will one day find in the back of a closet on Voyager. What are the odds?)

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Yeah, I love that the women of Andromeda are all very impressive characters; it's one of the great things about that show. The characters on Enterprise are a little more human than super-human, as it's less about action and more about thinking and interacting. When you do a good job combining these two approaches you get the women of Buffy who make strong but more realistic role-models (Tara being the best these days; Older and Far Away reminded me why I love her).

But you forgot the third female on Enterprise. I forget her name and rank (ensign?), and she's not a regular, but she's been in a few episodes like the one where they away team got stranded on a planet in a storm and started going crazy. It'd be nice for something to develop between her and Hoshi (since T'Pol is a lost cause), but I'd be surprised if the show did anything beyond subtext (and that'll most likely be T'Pol and Hoshi, who have more contact with each other).

Of course with the two guys (Tucker and Trip? I'm not sure of their names, still) having bonded in the shuttlepod this week, maybe something subtexty (or more) could happen there.

I

[modpost]

quote:

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Originally posted by Legs:
Before the season premiered in the US, I was reading all kinds of stuff about how Chris Carter thought of the possibility of making Monica a gay character and that some gay/lesbian groups really liked the idea. Anyway, the possibility of making Scully her fans got really pissed off saying this would be out of character for her etc, and Chris Carter just dropped the idea.

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Ummm, I very rarely watch X-Files, so I could be missing something, but when has Scully demonstrated an attraction to guys? Ok, there was a kiss or an almost-kiss or something with Mulder, but I don't know of her ever demonstrating a clear sexuality even suggesting she's straight much less excluding the possibility of her being bi. "Out of charcter"... Stupid fans...

Of course, there are different ways of introducing such a relationship and some might work better than others, but it's too bad he gave up on it. See, that's why Joss is a god; he doesn't care if fans object when he knows something is right.

quote:

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I thought I was the only person to feel that! And it's always with Phoebe!

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Kissing Rachel... the recent massage thing with Monica... She's got to be bi. (She also frequently drools over guys, remember, and it doesn't seem like she's just "covering".) I wish they'd have Phoebe date a girl sometime, even if it doesn't last (her relationships never do). They don't even have to show anything beyond public flirting, and of course casual references to the "great sex" they had...

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Kiss her! She's not your cousin....

I

[Repostposer]

On the subject of Andromeda, I thought Rev Bem was a really cool character, and the Magog make Star Trek's Borg look like shoplifters ...

But the look of the show has always been too Buck-Rogers-ish, at times sinking to Lost-In-Space-age. Plus generally poor dialogue.

Yet the characters are cool, with lots of potential. Trance always intrigued me and I really like her new look--kinda hawkish. But methinks any slash fanfic writers are going to bemoan the loss of that prehensile tail (c'mondon'ttellmenooneelsethoughtofthat)!

Bekka's new look is cool, but I get anime flashbacks from Rommie's blue hair...

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

I

[Repostposer]

I allway thought there was a bit of subtext with Chiana and Jool in "Farscape". Of course it could just be typical sci-fi titilation.

Warlock

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Web Warlock
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Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
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The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
"What the hell is your problem?" - Ozzy Osbourne to me, Feb. 1996

I

[Repostposer]

Yeah she meets this physist turned holistic medicine woman. She has a girlfriend but is very friendly and touchy feely to Scully. Normally that would not even get a notice, save that GA wrote that episode herself. Also this ep is famous for Mulder's "pilgramege" to Graceland. Something we used to do in College.
Trust me, you don't know tacky till you have been to Graceland hungover!

Warlock.

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Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
"What the hell is your problem?" - Ozzy Osbourne to me, Feb. 1996

I

[Repostposer]

I never noticed any E/S stuff in BMW, but I definately noticed something between Cory and Shawn. They had this whole episode where they "broke up" and said that they had been having trouble for a while and that they stayed together for the kids(in the class).

I was watching Malcolm in the Middle about an hour ago and I remembered the subtext I've always noticed between two of Malcolm's nerd friends. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about?
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Willow: Say, you all didn't happen to do a bunch of drugs, did ya?

Tara: Horsies!
Willow: Don't hit the horsies!
Buffy: We won't! (to giles) Aim for the horsies.

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited February 24, 2002).]

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[Repostposer]

I just saw Josie and the Pussycats on cable and there is subtext between all the pussy's but especially between Josie and Val. The boyfriend was just a cover IMOHO.

I

[Repostposer]

quote:

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Originally posted by Shooting_Star:
am i the only one who saw the subtext in Mutant X between Shalimar/Emma just after Emma 'died'?

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Oh bloody hell yes, I was sitting watching that with my mum, with the biggest smirk on my face...I think my mum thinks Im a bit morbid sitting there smirking when a main character just "died"

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Your wife has a rubber hand!?! ~ Johnny Vaughn to ASH
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WILLOW: Girl friends, really.
TARED: Yes, we are girl friends.
WILLOW: We are in the love. We are... the in love ones. Lesbian, in love with merry-type.
NIGEL: I wanted to say your relationship with the killer.
TARED: UM, right friendly goods.

I

[Repostposer]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wonko:
Sam and Frodo is totally [b]text, man - I mean even my mother picked up on that and she's old and crusty

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Sam and Frodo were so cute!!!!

I didn't see this one yet
Also Star Trek TNG... Picard and Q ;-)

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~Mel

Random Ass Webpage

[This message has been edited by GreenNeutron (edited March 28, 2002).]

I

[reposty]

Matbe I am just starved for some intligent adult programming, but I swear the teacher and librarian on the kid's show "Clifford the Big Red Dog" gotta thing going.

They are both "Miss", the teacher is the femme and the librarian looks like an older Thelma, only asian.

When they are not in school they are always together. They are cute together.

Ok, that might be reacing, but you try to watch ToddlerTV and *not* let your mind wander.

Warlock

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Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
My Willow&Tara Pages: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/willtara.php
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
--
I'm ahead of my time. But only by a week.
- Too Much Joy, "I Don't Know"

I

[Zahir al Daoud]

Along this line, I just watched ungeons and Dragons with my gf (not a good movie, btw) and it struck me one of few really interesting details was the relationship between the Bad Guy (Jeremy Irons turning the scenery into sawdust with his teeth) and his chief Henchman. Simply, I went away convinced the Henchman was utterly in love with the Bad Guy.

"O Let my name be in the Book of Love!
If it be there I care not of that other Book above.
Strike it out! Or write it in anew, but
Let my name be in the Book of Love!"

[supermus]

Quote:

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Sam/Frodo in LotR(the books) and maybe Legolas/Gimli. There are just some scenes between Sam and Frodo that are like, way sweet and romantic if you think about them as a couple

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I noticed the S/F subtext in the movie, but I think there was a lot less in the book. The scene at the end was more subtexty and Sam's utter devotion to Frodo was shown a lot more. I noticed the rapidly developed friendship between L/G, but I took it for just that, friendship. Hmm.

:tara :love :willow :love :tara

"Nothing gets in the way of fate Lilah. Not time, not space, not distance, no person or creature. Not even death. Eventually fate will bring them together."

-Excerpt from Katharyn's "The Sidestep Chronicle"

Edited by: supermus at: 3/31/02 12:20:20 pm

[Divine Princess Fuchsia]

Janeway and Seven of Nine...Janeway and Seven of Nine...And I know both Kate Mulgrew and Jeri Ryan denied it. But it could be just a cover up...and they were SO SWEET together! And *Spoiler alert for those of us who live in the uk and only have terrestrial channels* note how, in the end, Chakotay and 7, the only two to have had subtext with Janeway, end up together...There was chemistry. Subtext no less...Sorry, a tad obsessed with J/7 at the moment...anyone know where I can find good, non Nc17 fanfic? I've exhausted all the ones I can find and I NEED my fix...But they were sooooo cute. Damn Paramount. Damn it all to hell...

[eekdgeek]

Divine Princess Fuchsia, i didn't like the 7/Chakotay lovestory either. it was probably just a ploy to have them live happily ever after.... egad i think i'd rather have that alternative universe where Seven **** censored for spoiler in case ppl haven't watched it yet.



as for the 7/Janeway F/F: here ya go:



Delta Quadrant of Venus : Janeway/Seven Fan Fic Site



if that doesn't work: copy and paste URL below on your browser. http://members.aol.com/Tenderware/



peace!

Willow and Tara |
Willow and Tara's Room

[Jenny Scott]

Do we include buffy in this. cause if we do that last scene in dead things, if there was a lack of cloths, i'd swear buffy was going down on tara...

[supermus]

Oh yeah, in the promo for DT, the words covered up the face in Tara's lap, and everyone figured it was Buffy crying, and I was thinking, "maybe it's Willow...". And I loved the B/F subtext in S3. Ya know, in Enemies, where Faith kisses Buffy on the forehead, I think originally they were gonna have her kiss her on the lips.

Yup, here's the line from the shooting script

Quote:

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FAITH (cont'd)

What are you going to do, B?

Kill me - you become me. You're

not ready for that...



Faith surprises Buffy by jerking her head forward - not to head-butt her, but to give her a quick KISS on the lips.

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"Nothing gets in the way of fate Lilah. Not time, not space, not distance, no person or creature. Not even death. Eventually fate will bring them together."

-Excerpt from Katharyn's "The Sidestep Chronicle"

Edited by: supermus at: 3/31/02 5:13:59 pm

[Pixie gishmock]

Does anyone remember in the Princess Bride (the movie) there was a scene between Prince Humperdinck and Count Rugen that always made me giggle with subtext. It was when the Count was about to go down to torture Wesley, and he asks if the Prince wants to come along. The Prince gives a list of things he has to take care (war to plan, wedding to arrange, wife to murder, and Gildor to frame for it, I think) and ends with "Frankly, I'm swamped." The Count puts his hand on the Prince's arm, gives him a LOOK and says, "Well you know, if you haven't got your health, you haven't got anything."

[Bobos Mom]

Pixie -

I give that movie to my straight girlfiends when they get married. How pleased I will be, when giving the gift in the future, knowing that it has some gay subtext!

BM- as she types and cues her PB tape to find that scene

*********

TARA: Willow and I always know how to find each other!

ANYA: With yoga?