The "It's not W/T, it's Only Subtext " Thread

[Lindy]

Sounds like the price is right Hehe.

~~~~~~~
It's nothing. It's all.. nothing

[Loco2]

um... regarding phoebe - anyone remember when ross' cousin came to stay, and she couldn't stay with the guys because they couldn't keep their hands off her? anyone remember phoebe's thought tracking at the end....."Ask her out, she's not your cousin!" ??



someone's probably mentioned that but i haven't seen it...

"I'm not gay - I'm just Trevor's bitch." - some drunken guy about his sexuality
"Oh, bugger off, you BROLLY!" - Anya to Giles on his use of the english language
"We'll all be a lot happier without the constant whining....Mom, Buffy, Tara, Waah" - DMW to Dawn

[AutumnT]

No, they never considered making Reyes a lesbian, in fact they were surprised when people reacted to that birthing scene the wayy they did. They gave Reyes the hots for Doggett shortly there after.

Autumn

-----------

Buffy Season 6: It grated, like something forced in where it doesn't belong.

[mollyig]

The final series of X Files is just airing here, and has set me off looking for pictures of Annabeth Gish.



I was incredulous at the episode where Reyes is making eyes at Doggett. Found it really hard to believe.

Adding up the total of a love that's true, multiply life by the power of two
Indigo Girls

[AutumnT]

Oh, it's more than one episode. It's like a theme for the season. And it is squicky. They were obviously trying to force a chemistry dynamic like that of Mulder & Scully and well, ick.

Autumn

-----------

Buffy Season 6: It grated, like something forced in where it doesn't belong.

[mollyig]

Serious? Hmm, maybe I'll stop watching now. I mean that ep was upsetting enough.

Adding up the total of a love that's true, multiply life by the power of two
Indigo Girls

[kc070697]

Maudmac writes:

Quote:

---

Didn't someone affiliated with X Files say that it had been considered and rejected? Maybe not necessarily Reyes and Scully, but maybe making Reyes a lesbian? I don't think I dreamed that.



And yeah, that birth scene there, whew, my gaydar went DingDingDingDingDing.



Yes, that is is the sound of my gaydar. Don't laugh.

---

Cute. And yes, I DEFINITELY noticed what was going on with Reyes and Scully, too. It was really hard not to. And I have to tell you... that would have BLOWN MY MIND. I watched all 9 years of the X-Files waiting with baited breath for every new episode when it was in season... and again in repeats... and in MORE repeats... I *LOVED* that show. And I LOVED Sculder and Mully... I was a shipper for sure... but I have to tell you... that chemistry between Reyes and Sculder... woo-hoo!!! I was like, GO FOR IT!! Even if Reyes had like only kissed her or something and Sculder had rejected her... Reyes could have been placed with someone else later on... I dunno... she and that blonde lawyer from SVU would be cute together...



But no, I think that was DEFINITELY the vibe the producers were going at with Reyes at first... I though they might even it make it so we finally knew what had caused her & Doggett to have never explored "that side of their relationship" before... I just couldn't see the two of them making each other happy anyway... there wasn't the chemistry there was between Sculder & Mully. But the chemistry between Sculder & Reyes... mmmmm... yummy!! At least from Reyes's side!!



Too bad we'll never know, and now the show is gone... and the truth with it.

Edited by: kc070697 at: 8/30/02 10:18:59 am

[Zahir al Daoud]

Reyes and Scully--I could see it in a big way.



Scully and Mulder--eventually, I bought it.



Reyes and Doggett--actually, this made more sense to me than Scully/Mulder. I just didn't want to see it go in that direction.



But I was kinda hoping for something with that cute blonde FBI agent who was an X-Files groupie almost. She was so cute and earnest (and to me looked like Tara and Willow's daughter).



Well, that's what fanfic is for!

"O Let my name be in the Book of Love!
If it be there I care not of that other Book above.
Strike it out! Or write it in anew, but
Let my name be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kayam

[Hemiola]

Actually, one of the best fanfics I ever read (some three years ago) had Willow consulting with "an old family friend who works at the FBI" about a particularly scary phenomenon: Dana Scully! (the story had the Rosenbergs and the Scullys being such close friends for so long that Willow "always recalled affectionately the visits of her 'Aunt Dana'" )

----------------------------------------------------

"Away to the cheating world go you,

Where pirates all are well-to-do."

W.S. Gilbert, the Pirate King's song from "The Pirates of Penzance"

[the kat whisperer]

Well, I think it's all cleared up for me now.



So, R/S is definitely not maintext (damn) but potentially subtext in S9 (hooray). And I'm to ignore any scenes of Reyes making googly eyes at terminator guy as it may turn my stomach. Okay, got it.



See, I knew I didn't dream it... well, I was almost sure...maybe.



Anyhoo, I too have been searching for anything I can find on Annabeth Gish, and have just bought a couple of X Files DVDs to help fill in what I missed (the two-part stories Deadalive, Existence and Nothing Important Happened Today FYI, plus Xena's in the last one apparently ).



I'm off to watch them now.



kw

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

[circular reference]

the kat whisperer writes:

Quote:

---

So, R/S is definitely not maintext (damn) but potentially subtext in S9 (hooray). And I'm to ignore any scenes of Reyes making googly eyes at terminator guy as it may turn my stomach. Okay, got it.

---

Yes, you've got it exactly. Annabeth Gish, btw, is a beautiful girl... are you enjoying your episodes? (i am kc070697 from above, by the way... new nick)

--CR
"Hold the fire, I'm coming in."

[SJ]

There was a lot of subtext between Reyes and Scully in S8.

[the kat whisperer]

Annabeth Gish is amazing I'm totally infatuated with her now. And I've only seen her in about 5 episodes so far.



Thanks, circular reference (like the new name BTW), I did enjoy the episodes. Particularly the one in which Reyes is introduced ( This Is Not Happening) and the Scully birth ep Existence.



Reyes is so cute in the first one, the way she tries to hide her smoking when she and Scully first meet. The clarification of her beliefs during their discussion at the hospital. The concern shown by Reyes towards Scully throughout the ep. All adorable scenes with plenty of subtext. My favourite line has to be the "no frickin' way" when Reyes first sees the UFO.



As for Existence... dear god, the subtext is almost maintext here, as I posted before in this thread... (only slightly spoiled by the non sequitur kiss at the end )



Then it seems to go a bit wrong in Nothing Important Happened Today. Reyes doesn't seem as cooky/quirky/goofy as she was in her Season 8 eps. In fact she seems to have had quite a bit of a character change. It appears that she's previously had relationships with this smarmy Assistant Director guy as well as Doggett. What the hell's that all about?? And the only scene I recall her having with Scully is the investigating the ship scene at the end. Somebody please tell me that Reyes and Scully have a better relationship in the rest of Season 9.



Oh I don't know, I think I'm trying too hard to see something that isn't there because I've lost W/T. But nothing's ever gonna come close to that.



Damn, I started out all cheerful...



kw

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

[mollyig]

Me again with the Reyes / Scully.



Saw an ep the other night, the one where the ufo cult abduct William, anyway the end of it has Scully holding William, while Reyes is holding her. It was such a lovely image. sigh

Adding up the total of a love that's true, multiply life by the power of two
Indigo Girls

[Repost Moderator]

Originally posted by Kendahl897



I heard from a co-worker today that they were planning on filming a Xena movie sometime in the next year, which means that they would have to find some way to bring her back..Has anyone else heard anything else about this..BTW, I too was angry with the way it ended but at least the producers had the balls to admit their mistake..

[Repost Moderator]

Originally posted by WiccansIllusion



Reply | Edit | Del Re: Xena-the movie The Xena Movie has been a long awaited myth, I haven't heard any info, but have heard in general that they would be willing to do a movie. I'll try doing some search for this. And yes, yet another evil dead lesbian. It is still hard to watch the finale dvd I own.



Tara nodded in agreement "She has magic fingers." TheWisdom of War, Chris Golden



You dont really think this is like, Psycho Buffy Cheer Squad central, do you?-Xita ala Julia "Lessons Parody"

[Repost Moderator]

Originally posted by Kendahl897



I'll try and get more details tomorrow..I think she said it had something to do with the Oxygen network (possibly showing there) and that things were clear to proceed now that Renee and Lucy had had their babies..

[Repost Moderator]

Originally posted by veronsmygirl



or is that just me imagining it.ive been on a couple of sights dedicated to willow and tara(none as great as this though) and i noticed most of there user names are associated with xena and gabrielle,but you goota admit they are hot also,just one question though,through the entire series of xena there was always this are they arent they kinda thing going on,what do you think ???i personally think they were together,but hey thats just me..





well was i just imagining something that wasnt there or did anyone else see the same,,2 women flirting like forever... ray

Edited by: Repost Moderator at: 12/30/02 7:17:00 am

[Repost Moderator]

Originally posted by Dumbsaint



Funny. I'm not much of a Xena nor a Gabrielle fan. But then I don't hold with producers who cater to their huge lesbian following with subtext and publicity, but balk every time the opportunity arises to show an actual (gasp) lesbian relationship. As soon as I realized that's what they were up to, I stopped bothering with their show altogether. I don't have time for artists who are happy enough to capitalize on lesbian chic to the point of making it an integral part of their work, but are too cowardly to actually follow through and do something bold with that.



Willow and Tara were unique. They were texty. They were an honest to god couple of girls who we got to watch fall madly in love and stay there for two years. Honestly, I find it silly to compare them to subtexty "ships" like X/G. There's just no comparison. I even find it a bit insulting to everything that W/T have meant in the context of lesbian portrayals in film and TV to even put them in the same category as X/G.



But then that's just opinionated ol' me.

[urnofosiris]

It's not just you Julia. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who love Willow and Tara who also love Xena and Gabrielle. I'm not one of them. There is no comparison between WT and GX, certainly not here.



Xena could have been great I guess, and I don't understand why Tapert didn't have the balls to go through with it. I mean was he afraid about his future career if he had done so? Someone tell me what he is doing now please. Was he afraid to lose his audience if he had? Someone tell me how many people were left at the end anyway. Like Whedon he created something good and then proceeded to destroy it till next to nothing was left. It is easier to destroy than to create and they both seem to be better at the first than the latter unfortunately.



Willow and Tara are a first in so many ways, they had onscreen what GX only had in fanfic, a long lasting loving realistic lesbian relationship, despite the censorship utterly believeable and appealing thanks mostly to the fantastic way in which Amber and Alyson have made them come to life and stood by them off screen as well. So much more could have been done onscreen, so many more barriers could have been broken forever, but well, we know what happened and there is another thread for that topic.

Edited by: DrG at: 12/30/02 7:43:05 am

[tommo]

I always felt that Xena and Gabrielle had a very different kind of relationship than Willow and Tara. Comparison seems a little difficult in that sense. I was never a die-hard watcher of Xena, although I did watch enough to glean a full sense of the show, and the relationship, I think. But I always felt that the show was very tongue in cheek when it came to the real relationship between the two women, and didn't take it terribly seriously. The thing I love most about Willow and Tara is that it's a very serious relationship, down to the falling in love and exploration of sexuality and commitment. I never really got that from Xena.

"You think I smell like a mermaid?"
"No, I think it's haddock...or carp...Do us a favour dear Nan and put your glove back on."
~ Titty Saunders and Nancy Boy French

[WiccansIllusion]

Garfield



X/G, in my opinion were great because it appealed to everyone. ( not that Willow and Tara didn't..) but it appealed to the lesbians, it appealed to the straight crowd, it gave everyone a little taste of something. People could see the relationship how they wanted, and not be disgusted by a charachter whom they loved, turns out to be gay.



Now don't go bashing on me the way I said that, but there are a lot of W/O shippers out there who hated the fact that she was, and still is gay. I'm not one of them. What made Xena so versitle in a show, is that it could make different sorts of people see eye to eye in a sense.





If any of that made sense let me know LOL



WI

Tara nodded in agreement "She has magic fingers." TheWisdom of War, Chris Golden



You dont really think this is like, Psycho Buffy Cheer Squad central, do you?-Xita ala Julia "Lessons Parody"

[maudmac]

Apologies for butting in, but...



WiccansIllusion, I hear what you're saying and I don't disagree that X/G had a wide appeal...but what you said there in your post is kinda the whole reason a lot of lesbians don't like X/G. The show tiptoed around, flirted, there was innuendo and suggestion all over the place, but it never had the courage to commit to what everyone already thought - that Xena and Gabrielle were a couple. That's my problem with the show (well, one of them, anyway).



By trying to appeal to everyone, if that's what they were doing, they ended up alienating some folks, too. The hardcore homophobes were squicked out by the innuendo and suggestion. And people who really wanted to finally see a committed lesbian couple on television were left out in the cold. At least until W/T came along.



I understand the appeal of X/G, but the members of the fanbase who wanted to see them in a full-on relationship could only see that in fic. Whereas, with us, we got it right there onscreen. Plus, we have the fic.



And, as far as making different sorts of people see eye to eye...take a look around here. You probably couldn't collect more different sorts of people seeing eye to eye. And W/T, all texty and everything, did that.

Don't lick my EYE!---Margaret Cho

[WiccansIllusion]

Maudmac



( congrats on mod status, btw )



I see where your going with what was said, and it's not butting in at all. I was one of those hard core, "I want a kiss finally" Xena fans. I feel cheated that the only way we got a kiss was whenever Xena "died".



And as for what the board has done, bringing different people together, is amazing. I am extremlly grateful to still have pens, and that there are many avid fic writers despite what has happened this past year.



As for X/G alieninating people, the show was not carried out the way I think it could have been. ( sound familiar?) It tried to do, in many ways, what Buffy accomplished. X and G just happened at the wrong time, in my opinion. And in my veiws Tapert probably had many other things on his mind, about how he wanted the show to be, and it's outcome. Perhaps Whedon and him are smoking the same weed or something . *shrug*



I didn't mean to start a huge debate on this, just to compare something many think are un comparable ( apparently.)

Tara nodded in agreement "She has magic fingers." TheWisdom of War, Chris Golden



You dont really think this is like, Psycho Buffy Cheer Squad central, do you?-Xita ala Julia "Lessons Parody"

[tommo]

Incomparable. Absolutely. Like comparing chalk and cheese. One is dusty and bleh and the other tastes good on crusty French bread.



God, where am I going with this...?



Eh. I dunno.

"You think I smell like a mermaid?"
"No, I think it's haddock...or carp...Do us a favour dear Nan and put your glove back on."
~ Titty Saunders and Nancy Boy French

[Dumbsaint]

Brooke, if Joss had gone by the logic of "wanting to appeal to everyone," including the homophobes who are squicked by homoeroticism, we would have never had W/T. I don't think that's a respectable kind of logic, saying it's okay to pander to people who hate because you want to appeal to "everyone." I really don't. I also don't think "it wasn't the right time" is a valid excuse for the kind of expoitative subtext that Tapert used. There had been gay characters for years on TV. It was just waiting for someone to work up the nerve to show a positive, real relationship. For whatever reason, he never went there, probably never intended to go there- but he was more than happy to tempt and tease and make it look like he was going to in order to keep his audience watching. That's a profoundly crappy way to treat a marginalized audience that has always been hungry for fair representation in a largely hostile culture. Not to mention just being lame as fuck. It's insulting.



On a more entertaining (to me, at least... heh) note, following Ruth's luscious note:



The Julia Slogan Generator: Willow and Tara are creamy and spreadable. Mmm, mmm, good.

Spank me, I'm Julia.

[WiccansIllusion]

Julia



I never said it was fair representation. It was one show. It was executed pourly. And apparently I'm being slandered for having liked it in the first place.



For a director having to bare the burden of representation of all cultures is probably an impossible task. Tapert represented his veiws, as did Joss in a sick and twisted sort of way. I'm not trying to defend the at all, or his logic, just my own pov's.

Tara nodded in agreement "She has magic fingers." TheWisdom of War, Chris Golden



You dont really think this is like, Psycho Buffy Cheer Squad central, do you?-Xita ala Julia "Lessons Parody"

Edited by: WiccansIllusion at: 12/31/02 8:12:35 am

[Dumbsaint]

I'm not slandering anyone for liking Xena. Nor am I bashing. I'm disagreeing. I liked Xena myself quite a bit and was a casual viewer for the first few seasons, before it started to 1) bore me (the characters didn't hold me, and the whole Christianity metaphor thing was lame), and 2) piss me off (for reasons I have already stated in this thread). What I'm saying is that comparing X/G to W/T as though the relationships existed on an even par is ridiculous. They are not at all comparable. There WAS no romantic relationship delineated textually between Xena and Gabrielle on the show. Ever. Yes, I'm sure many people enjoyed the subtextual back and forth between them. Others like myself have long since tired of the crumbs thrown by writers and producers to their lesbian and gay fans. The message is always the same. Same sex desire is invisible, only permissible as subtext, or when visible it is linked to misery, madness, death, and despair- or simply used as eye candy before a questioning girl runs back to the safe haven of heterosexuality.



I'm not saying that producers are responsible for making sure that every minority has a place on their show. But Tapert went out of his way to court the huge lesbian following of the show, all the while stringing them along, happy enough to capitalize on lesbian chic, but unwilling to risk angering people who are "squicked" by homosexuality. Again. That's crap.

Quote:

---

People could see the relationship how they wanted, and not be disgusted by a charachter whom they loved, turns out to be gay.

---

So it's okay to not ever show a gay relationship because it might "disgust" some people? Maybe I should stop holding my girlfriend's hand in public, and take down the picture I have of the two of us from my desk here at work. Wouldn't want to disgust anyone. The logic you're using there is the same that has been used for years to treat gay people and couples like second class citizens.

Quote:

---

Now don't go bashing on me the way I said that, but there are a lot of W/O shippers out there who hated the fact that she was, and still is gay. I'm not one of them.

---

But clearly you think that at least in some instances it's perfectly acceptable for that attitude to be endorsed by TV producers.

Spank me, I'm Julia.

Edited by: Dumbsaint at: 12/31/02 11:50:41 am

[WiccansIllusion]

Julia



I never said it wasn't ok for you to do so. Hell, I'm a lesbian myself. I generally don't care what society thinks. I was just stating other reasons why a certain show never whent where Buffy dared to tread and in many ways conquored.



So their not compareable. I'm in agreement finally. I guess people were looking more at the fan fiction base of the show, which after a while was a hell of a lot better then the real thing.

Tara nodded in agreement "She has magic fingers." TheWisdom of War, Chris Golden



You dont really think this is like, Psycho Buffy Cheer Squad central, do you?-Xita ala Julia "Lessons Parody"

[xita]

My thoughts on xena. I certainly have nothing against xena viewers as I used to be one myself. I watched and was a big fan for 2 years. I was very involved with xena on usenet. I think x/g had wider appeal but not for being a gay couple. I remember the wars that raged with people who subtexted and those who didn't. It was a great thing for subtext. However I got tired of having my chain yanked. I don't have a lot of patience for it. Shit or get off the pot is my motto. I watched AMC , the coming out story being amazing, but the refusal to get a gf got to me. The 3rd teasing did me in and I never watched again, even when people were saying maggie/bianca was a done deal. I didn't fall for it. Same with xena after 2 years I realized they were NEVER going to make it text. But they were going to tease and play with it to get my money, yes my money. I paid good money for a xena shirt, and other junk. My friends bought me stuff. I was feeling used. The last hurrah, your kiss at death is meaningless, they decapitated the hero and never ever just said it. THey had a perfect opportunity to out them but they didn't. Show was over, no one cared and still they didn't. bleh.



W/T were text that first season and that was a first and it is why I devoted myself all these years to it. And it makes me sadder and more bitter than you can imagine that Buffy lost it and ended the way it did, no better than xena. Still the time we had was unique and I believe will be unmatched for some time.



Xena is important and yes, more lesbians watched that than w/t and I will never understand that. And yeah the communities still in service are impressive. But it was never more than subtext.

If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner.

Tallulah Bankhead

Edited by: xita  at: 12/31/02 1:16:22 pm