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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:41 pm 
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10. Troll Hammer

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RoyoNobus wrote:
I think I have a sort of weird view on this so bear with me. I didn't really get a chance to check out most of the replies to this thread so I don't know exactly how unique my opinion is. I acknowledge that the lesbian cliche is still around as unfortunate as that may be. I also understand how easily Tara's death could be construed as fitting into this cliche. I think ME made the wrong decision and I'm certainly not in favor of it but I don't think that it should be viewed as falling into the category of the cliche. I will try to make this as comprehensive as I can..

Hi RoyoNobus,
I will certainly love to discuss this, and I when I return home I will have a much longer and detailed post that I hope you find interesting..and perhaps some background.



But for now let me present a recent quote by Joss


http://www.joeutichi.com/profile/joss-whedon-interview/

an excerpt

Buffy fans have wondered whether Whedon is cursed for an especially egregious act of cruelty against one of the show’s characters in its sixth season. Tara Maclay, Willow’s gentle Wiccan love interest played by Amber Benson, had recurred for three seasons before Whedon added Benson to the show’s main cast credits. And at the end of that very same episode she was suddenly and unexpectedly shot and killed. No character, main cast or not, was safe in the “Whedonverse,” as the world of his creations has come to be known.
[“I realised, just the other day, that I have this terrible reputation for killing people not just because I killed Tara, but because I was such a dick about it,” he laughs. “[Adding her to the credits] was just mean. Tara may be dead, but she haunts me still, because now all anybody ever talks about is the fact I kill characters off, and I think, ‘I do other things as well!’”


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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:09 pm 
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2. Floating Rose
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Very interesting. I look forward to the rest of your response.


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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:08 am 
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28. Com...plete
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Marvel introduces a lesbian character only to kill her off.

http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/55104178604/death-superhero-comics-and-representation

DC Women Kicking Ass says things we have been saying for years.

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Tara: "My whole life has been 'Tara, don't use your magic.' 'Tara, hide your powers.' 'Tara you will scare someone.' But you tried to hurt and then kill Willow. So maybe it is time I showed everyone just how powerful I am."
- The Dragon and the Phoenix, Episode 7: The Road to Hell


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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:40 pm 
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10. Troll Hammer

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A small bit on the Huffington post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/20/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-house_n_3786074.html
The slide on Willow and Tara reads
Quote:
Willow And Tara's Relationship
Sure, Willow had a relationship with Oz for a few seasons, but with Tara, the character really came into her own. The two witches brought new life to the series and portrayed a lesbian relationship in a relatively normal and positive light ... until Tara was murdered and Willow turned evil.

A few short words do the trick..


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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:30 pm 
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4. Extra Flamey

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:02 pm
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For two series I thought that Sally Wainwright's Last Tango in Halifax was one of the best written programmes on TV.

Spoilers



From the Guardian, 20.1.15

Quote:
'The third season of Last Tango in Halifax has also been drawing criticism for its storylines. The gentle, quietly subversive Sunday-night drama praised for its depiction of late-in-life lesbian romance appeared to have given Caroline and Kate a happy ending, only for a heavily pregnant Kate to be killed in a car accident straight after their wedding.'


The full article: http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio ... ian-cliche

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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:34 pm 
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Ms. Moderator Fantastico
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I know it's been a while, but I think what is happening with the 100 will sound awfully familiar to us.

So many years later and a lesbian is killed in the very same way that Tara was killed. The lesbian community did not stand with us then. It seems like they are standing up now. It's taken a complete copy kill to get people to understand how damaging this was. And, how influential. The free pass Joss Whedon got from the community encouraged others to disregard us. We've had so many deaths, it's so disproportionate, it can't be disputed.

I am glad to see that these fans have also turned to Trevor Project to spend their money and anger on a worthy cause. https://www.classy.org/fundraise?fcid=625415

Honestly, it's been difficult for me to invest on lesbians on TV. My heart was broken by Tara and it has never healed. I am glad that I wasn't a fan of this show either, but anyone from this place would know never to trust a show runner.

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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:00 pm 
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Ms. Moderator Fantastico
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xita wrote:
I know it's been a while, but I think what is happening with the 100 will sound awfully familiar to us.

So many years later and a lesbian is killed in the very same way that Tara was killed. The lesbian community did not stand with us then. It seems like they are standing up now. It's taken a complete copy kill to get people to understand how damaging this was. And, how influential. The free pass Joss Whedon got from the community encouraged others to disregard us. We've had so many deaths, it's so disproportionate, it can't be disputed.

I am glad to see that these fans have also turned to Trevor Project to spend their money and anger on a worthy cause. https://www.classy.org/fundraise?fcid=625415

Honestly, it's been difficult for me to invest on lesbians on TV. My heart was broken by Tara and it has never healed. I am glad that I wasn't a fan of this show either, but anyone from this place would know never to trust a show runner.


Agreed. That was so closely copied to Tara’s death a case could easily be made for plagiarism. I watched the episode unfold and immediately flashed back to the dreaded Season Sux courtyard/bedroom scenes. I was thinking no. No. There’s NO way are they gonna pull that again. Wait.. What?.. WTF??????? They did it. Bastards. I’m done with that show.

The writer for the episode, Javier Grillo-Marxuach, is a good friend of Amber’s. Surely he would have known (well in advance) everything his good friend, Amber, went thru after her character’s death and the damage that did to the LGBT community. She speaks about it quite often so it's difficult to believe he didn't know all about Tara and how much pain her death caused. Besides.. the 100 showrunner made promises just like Joss did so it's pretty clear they anticipated there would be major fallout. Grillo has been doing a lot of "spinning" since the episode aired.

Amber posted a comment on her Tumblr defending him. What a complete disappointment.


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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:32 pm 
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17. Mega-Witches
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I didn't even watch this show---and, truthfully, haven't been to the Kitten in several years---but when I heard that one half of the 'ship had been killed, I knew I had to check in here. GG.

Geez, I hadn't even thought to come here after the debacle that was "Last Tango in Halifax", but this, too!


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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:06 am 
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28. Com...plete
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Yeah, I heard about this too. No idea that it was so close.

I might send a few bucks over to good old Trevor in solidarity.

Tim

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Visit my Willow and Tara page! http://timbrannan.blogspot.com/p/willow-tara.html
Tara: "My whole life has been 'Tara, don't use your magic.' 'Tara, hide your powers.' 'Tara you will scare someone.' But you tried to hurt and then kill Willow. So maybe it is time I showed everyone just how powerful I am."
- The Dragon and the Phoenix, Episode 7: The Road to Hell


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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:57 pm 
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9. Gay Now
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We're behind you over here in the UK so I haven't seen any of this season. I heard the spoilers and have read quite a few articles about it. It's scarily disturbing how so many of them could have been written 14 years ago, with only the names that are different.

It's disappointing how little has changed.

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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:32 am 
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!4 years later...We are still being talked about.

This time it is the Harvard Political Review.

http://harvardpolitics.com/culture/the-disposable-lesbian-its-time-for-television-to-let-us-live/

Read and share.

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Web Warlock, web.warlock@comcast.net
Visit my Willow and Tara page! http://timbrannan.blogspot.com/p/willow-tara.html
Tara: "My whole life has been 'Tara, don't use your magic.' 'Tara, hide your powers.' 'Tara you will scare someone.' But you tried to hurt and then kill Willow. So maybe it is time I showed everyone just how powerful I am."
- The Dragon and the Phoenix, Episode 7: The Road to Hell


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 Post subject: Re: The Lesbian Cliche FAQ
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:25 am 
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6. Sassy Eggs

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:43 pm
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I have not been here for some time, but the show Wynonna Earp led me to come back, because Emily Andras, the showrunner, has created a powerful new lesbian 'ship with the characters Waverly Earp and Nicole Haught, known as wayhaught. And she has done so with full understanding of the "kill your gays" trope, to where she publicly stated that both characters would survive the season- she did so early in the first season of a show that has yet to be renewed, but she kept her promise.

The !00, as MMF said, followed a script that was so close to Willow and Tara I cringed watching it. And the outcry after seemed so similar to what happened back in 2002- 14 years later and what the hell has changed? How could this happen- but the dialogue after was telling. The showrunner for The 100 was very defensive, but Javier Grillo- Amber's friend- has been distancing himself from the writing decisions that were made. Here are Amber's actual words:


For My Friend

When a close friend gets attacked on social media, the first thing you want to do is defend them. Especially when those attacks become aggressive and include threats of physical violence. It’s even tougher when you know the person very well and you know that the way they live their life and the way they craft their ‘personal’ work is antithetical to what they are being criticized for online. All you want to do is yell: You guys are mad at someone who is actually an ally and a caring human being who gives a shit about the people he creates for. Someone who is part of a team of creative people––including a show runner and a writer’s room full of writers, a network, and a studio––who make television happen, for better or for worse, and this one person shouldn’t be singled out and castigated for something they weren’t wholly responsible for.

But I see the other point of view here, too. I understand the anger and hurt and pain and resentment…the damage done by the perpetuating of a trope that’s old and repetitive and needs to be retired. I was an integral part of the furthering of this trope and I hate that it’s become a ‘go to’ for so many shows when they’re trying to figure out what to do with LGBTQ characters. I wish we were at a point where it didn’t matter, where we only had to service the narrative…but we’re not there yet. Every LGBTQ character represents such a small part of the whole that what happens to them, how they are treated, their ability to embrace their sexuality and have fulfilling relationships, how they are killed…makes a huge impact. I’m not trying to tie anyone’s hands creatively, I just hope that the decisions on how to treat these characters are made with intense thought and awareness of how their storylines will effect fans in the real world.

Javier Grillo-Marxuach is my friend and he is one of the good ones. He’s still on social media interacting with the fans who reach out to him––even though there is a lot of hate being directed his way. He cares. He listens. He may have written this particular episode, but he is only part of a creative team––that’s how all television shows come up with their storylines…by group consensus.

I guess I just hope the messenger doesn’t get shot in the haste to make everyone’s anger known. There are other, more productive ways, to change how the entertainment industry tells LGBTQ stories, and that includes supporting television shows and films and books by LGBTQ creators. We can put our dollars toward those projects and help to bring them into the mainstream where they belong.
I, for one, can’t wait for that world.

I am a big fan of The Trevor Project. If you need to reach out and talk to someone, they are an excellent resource and they have wonderful people there who can help: http://www.thetrevorproject.org or call: 1-866-488-7386

This is my last word on this and I won’t be responding here or on social media.


Here is a link to an interview with Emily Andras: http://www.afterellen.com/tv/490411-wynonna-earp-creator-emily-andras-talks-wayhaught-survival

Those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. I was appalled at The 100. And at Person of Interest. And at OITNB. And on it goes, but then there was a glimmer of hope with Wynonna Earp, and in the past with Lost Girl.

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