For everyone who posted tonight, kudos on a difficult job. Just came back from Thanksgiving evening with my in-laws, and managed to miss all the live action stuff.



RE: Drew

Defensive much?



(edited to add) The use of the word "homophobe"? Wow, we never labelled THEM that way. And the object of their attack - well, "homophobe" is one noun that I would not associate with that person.



RE: Jane's comments

She is being disingeneous. What demographic exactly is it that Buffy is targetting? Specific ratings numbers are the subject of a different forum. But, I will say that Buffy's current season ratings, coupled with UPN's income expectations, make this a much more complex issue that she indicates. Perhaps she is sitting TOO close...

Edited by: Dave V at: 10/15/02 4:26:36 am

Does anyone want to compile a list of some of the quotes from the writers and the come backs from the Kittens (or at least those in support of us). I seemed to have missed all the "fun".

Still just from looking at this thread something aint right down there at ME.

That's not a board we're going to win any arguments on ..I think it's probably best if we choose to stay away and just post here, where people have a clue as to what's really going on..let the writers believe what they want. If a storyline upsets your fans so much that you have lost thousands of viewers and continue to lose thousands more every week and you don't have the common sense to ''rectify'' it, then you deserve what you're getting. Falling ratings. No argument they make is going to change that well documented reality...Xita's right......

Edited by: Kendahl897 at: 10/14/02 10:46:06 pm

I'll be honest, I was disappointed to see the name kitten over there again and in this context. I hate that they try to paint us as hysterical people. Especially when some of us are trying really hard to pull away from that and only present logical arguments. Yes they are being reactionary but we should not follow that example.



Honestly, I would like the talk of that board to just end now. If people want to comment on what Jane said fine but please no more references to the people or posts there.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.



I am especially impressed with DrewZ calling WebWarlock a homophobe. Yeah, WW HATES gays. That's why he posts here all the time.



"We wanted you to love her so that when we took her away, the audience would feel her absence as something painful..."



So in other words, she was cannon fodder the whole time. Nice.



ETA Xita, does talk of "that board" include Drew's comments? If so, feel free to delete this or move it elsewhere.

~~~~~~~~~~

"Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions.
It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference.
We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be." -- Angel

Edited by: Pipsqueak at: 10/14/02 10:33:30 pm

Quote:

---

posted by maudmac

So, am I correct in assuming that what he's saying is that because Tara was not "troubled, twisted and desperate," that the manner of her death cannot be cliched? I understand what it seems he's getting at, but he's very much missing the boat.



If the purpose of those cliches is to reinforce that lesbians are bad and need to be punished, what does it say then when the lesbians are good and yet still are punished?



He also seems to be saying that by making Tara "vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on her own two feet," and still killing her, they were in fact subverting that cliche. Am I reading this right?

---

Well yeah you are, not bad considering you are a homophobe. Sooooo, see we were wrong all along. It does not matter at all that they killed Tara at the foot of her bed and are stripping the skin of Willow as we speak. It is ok because they were nice lesb...excuse me individuals. Let's not think of them as lesbians, only a homophobe would do that.



See all those other lesbians that preceded Willow and Tara in this fate were not vibrant, alive, self-sufficient, funny, sexy, compassionate, strong and learning to stand on her own two feet. Nope they must all have been evil and dead from the start. At least that is what one might think by reading that man's logic.



However, just maybe Willow and Tara were not the first 'nice individuals' who ended up like this. What made them unique is that they were alive and happy and lovers (although only shown metaphorically till the episode in which one of them dies right after sex) for more than 2 years. Call me a homophobe, but to me the fact that they were nice and destroyed after 2 years instead of 2 episodes does not particulary negate this cliche, in fact it is about the worst of the lot so far. There was hope for the first time and that hope hurt worse than ever before. That hope is gone now, and it is somewhat difficult to live without hope.



Here we all have each other for support, but if there is but one gay teen out there who used to get hope from WT for the first time after being told gay is evil by so called loved ones or beaten up because of it, and who has now lost that hope and has no one to turn to, then this grand story of them is nothing less than a crime.



They will twist whatever they do and whatever others say in such a way that they themselves can sleep easy at night and pat themselves on the back for stabbing a group of people in the back who already run a higher risk of that anyway in the 'real' world simply for who they love.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

Edited by: DrG at: 10/15/02 4:38:24 am

yes it is so stupid, we wanted you to love her so it would hurt when we killed her. it was all a ploy. not we wanted you to love her so you'd like her around. I mean when other characters are loved they are kept around. it sucks.. and they don't get that. tara never had a chance. that sucks.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

Yeah it does, but on the upside, we have moved up from hysterical lesbians to homophobes. Yay for progress, we can get married now.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

You know my "favourite" part about this latest flare-up. Drew Z calling Web Warlock a homophobe. Because folks who usually help to organize the raising of over 8 grand for a G/L/B/T support line are always homophobes aren't they? I mean I'm sure Drew doesn't know WW from a Adam but to automatically call someone a homophobe when you dont know them at all is just so wrong.

It also shows I believe that these guys can't have an intelligent debate without name calling, kinda sad really.

Hmm. Well, it's new that this argument comes from anyone at ME, although I've heard it before from fans defending the show. It's probably even one of the more reasonable arguments, as they go, except for the fact that it's inaccurate, revisionist, and disingenuous.



For one thing, the idea that cliche lesbians were always portrayed as necessarily evil and twisted even in the original incarnations of the genre is just dead wrong. Honestly, I sometimes wonder how many people who claim to know all about the cliche and its history have bothered to do any actual reading. Some of the women were as close to protagonists and heroines as you can reasonably get in a what's basically male-oriented girl-on-girl porn. The point wasn't necessarily that these characters were evil (although, admittedly, plenty of times they were), it was that lesbianism itself was viewed as socially wrong no matter what the circumstances, so they invariably ENDED UP dead, evil, alone and broken hearted, or back in the arms of a man. (Sound familiar?) The act was either punished or invalidated whether the character in question was a murderous convict looking for fresh meat or, as was equally often the case, a cheerful fresh-scrubbed Iowa farm girl suddenly experiencing all sorts of new and pleasant sensations. The audience was welcome to sympathise with, become attached to, and of course become sexually aroused by the characters as long as they were ultimately punished in the end so that no one accidentally walked away with the impression that this lesbianism stuff was all fine and dandy.



In modern times, this has changed little except for the fact that portrayals of lesbian characters (before they meet their invariable punishment) have grown a little more sophisticated as it became more acceptable for them to appear in genres other than pulp and porn - Talia Winters, Cicely, Tara. And yet, they still die. Thematically, nothing has changed.



So, asking us to accept Tara's death as a *subversion* of the cliche shows an appalling lack of understanding of what the cliche really is and always has been. The blithe assumption that killing a lesbian character won't come across as a punishment because the character was well-liked shows grave ignorance of the historical and social context in which the death takes place. In a nutshell, the dead/evil lesbian cliche is really, genuinely just about the fact that fictional lesbians always seem to die or turn evil. (Why does this seem so hard for some people to grasp?) A true subversion of the cliche would have to be a subversion OF THAT PUNISHMENT. If they had resurrected Tara at the end of season 6, or - wonder of wonders - not killed her off in the first place, I probably would still be on ME's side. But, um, they didn't.



I mean, forgive me if I'm scratching my head at the idea that a TV landscape that happens to be littered with *likeable* dead lesbians is a great leap forward. What message is this sending? Same old, same old.



And as for calling those who hold this point of view homophobic - um . . . huh?



---- KR

Lost in Ecstacy

One more thing - sorry about the double post, but this is on a somewhat different topic from the last one and the two really just didn't seem to go together - now that I've had some time to think a bit and reflect, calmly, on what has been said . . .



I. Am. Pissed.



He called us homophobes.



They killed a @&^%! lesbian on their show, and turned another one evil, and lied to us about it, and we didn't call them homophobes. Instead, we spent paragraphs explaining why we *didn't* think they were homophobes - in just about every essay written by anyone from here. And many of us spent time on other boards correcting the mistaken impression that we were calling them homophobes. Or wrote posts and e-mails defending people we thought might have unfairly been called homophobes. Or even just did the decent thing and didn't go around publicly calling people we didn't know homophobes. Even though everyone was already accusing us of sinking to the level of hurling insults or playing the prejudice game, and even though we probably could have made a decent case for it if we really felt like it, we didn't.



But apparently we can't expect the same level of discourse from them. No, instead WebWarlock, who helped raise thousands of dollars for a gay charity, and by extension those who agree with him, many of whom are lesbians (or gay, or bi, or trans, or genderqueer, or allied, or are otherwise sympathetic), can all be insultingly tarred as narrow minded bigots who hate gays because, by some twisted pretzel logic, we think lesbians are being treated unfairly and want the situation to improve. Because DG, apparently, can divine our mental processes and uncover our true homophobia.



You know, I've never said a single personal word about anyone associated with the show, no matter what they've said. Sure, I've pointed out, factually, when they've lied, and I've complained about their writing style or artistic choices, or when they made jokes I thought were in poor taste, but I never presumed that I knew their motivations or their personalities, or wished anything bad on them, or insulted them, or accused them of anything on any personal level. Of course, I also assumed that they wouldn't hurl insults at *us*.



THAT pisses me off. He can go to hell.



--- KR

Lost in Ecstacy

Edited by: kyraroc at: 10/15/02 1:56:36 am

Ok SDK and Drew are beginning to look like the ME equivalent of good cop/badcop. As to Drew's suggestion that because Tara was a good person that somehow negates the cliche. To my mind it enhances. If you have a person who is oppressed, unhappy, and unstable them you are hardly surprised that bad thngs happen to them. A good happy person its so much less likely. And the suggestion that it was ok to make us love a character so it would hurt more when she died is beneath contempt.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

Ah,



Drew can call me anything he wants, I could really care less. As far as I am concerned the only people whose opinions about me matter are my family and my friends, esp. my friends here.



So this is how highly paid professionals treat their fans. By casting stones at them and calling them names.



For the record I have read the FAQ and the Celluloid Closet. Bringing up the Cliche FAQ to them seems to enrage them beyond the point of rational thought. Not because they are tired of hearing it.



But because they know we are right.



Look. I am sorry I dragged everyone into this again, really. I avoid that place like the plague, but I let my anger override my better judgment.

Let's just say I don't have DrLlloyd's stomach.



The fact is this. They still don't get it and they still don't understand. If they did they should be hanging their heads in shame, not posting to some board looking to get their precious egos inflated.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side, home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

"Innocence looks ridiculous on a pervert." - Skeeve, Robert Lynn Aspirin's Myth series.

Well what he managed to do is make himself look so far removed from intelligence or logic that he will need a jetliner flying non stop to get close to that again any time this century.





Looking at it again I am more and more baffled at the total offensiveness and ignorance displayed in these words:

Quote:

---

In characterizing Tara's death as yet another in the string of cliched lesbian deaths, you indicate that you do not see Tara as anything but a lesbian, you do not see her as the unique character she was, but rather just as a woman who had sex with women, and, in doing so, you reveal your own homophobia, your own prejudice and, more than anything else, your own lack of understanding of what we did with that character.

---

I am all amazement.

Tara was a lesbian. A nice one. She died like so many other lesbians before her, many of who were nice also. This is a fact. How does acknowledging the fact that Tara was a lesbian take away from her uniqueness? How does not ignoring that she was yet another lesbian who ends up dead make us homophobes? We love Willow and Tara because they are kind, gentle and brave women who are soulmates, lovers, meant to be forever, and who are lesbians. Just what am I not understanding here?



I understand perfectly well I think. By his own words they made her lovable so her death would hurt more, in previous statements they claimed she had to die because it was the only way to make Willow go EVIL. Tara was a tool for hurt and pain and a prop for Willow. What a lovely way to respect her uniqueness. In doing this they unintentionally, through their ignorance invoked a cliche which probably makes them deeply uncomfortable, judging from the strange tactics they use to try and distance themselves from it.



I read an argument once that people of a minority group should be happy if people make racist jokes, because it means they are being treated equally. They must have gone to the same school of self serving logic.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

Edited by: DrG at: 10/15/02 10:23:29 am

Tim, I am glad you can wave it off. But the problem is, by believing and supporting the FAQ, we all got called homophobes, especially the esteemed writers of the FAQ. I am not so willing to wave it off. This is deeply disturbing and affects all of us.



And Jane is now going to get a letter from me, I thought she knew better. She was the one who admitted right away that they may have made a mistake. She sounded genuine.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

after reading over what transpired at the 'board that shall not be named' - I can only think these writers must know they are abooard the sinking ship ME that is listing badly due to serious ratings hits.



*Fireflea is waiting for the axe to fall

*emma and sara want out of buffy, while angel is on its 3rd show runner this season

*buffy opened a new season with ratings BELOW its previous season closer for the first time in seven seasons and is down yet another 6% from end of last year,

* Buffy has failed a second time to be able to launch its lead out

* buffy's press for season 6 is universally horrid

* UPN is in the red over a million an ep for buffy

* going into NOV sweeps media piece after media piece is noting buffys ratings fall off

* Angel opened with a new low for season primere's, is losing a quater of its charmed lead in and its only saving grace is that the previous years show in the 9pm slot pulled down even worse ratings





these folks jobs could easily disappear in a matter of a few months - and instead of acting like professionals - they are acting like cornered rats on a badly listing ship



Nov sweeps is just around the corner

is it really a great time to piss off even more viewers?

Considering it's "that board which shall not be named" and that Drew and Jane are obviously attempting to show their "intelligence" by tossing their meaningless degrees about, I'm not surprised that they still don't get it and still are exhibiting pedantic, juvenile behaviour. I'd REALLY hate to have them arguing for my side in a court of law because their arguments leak worse than a dyke in Holland (erm...no pun intended...seriously)



Even with SDK doing some damage control with his apology, it seems that Jane and Drew wanted to negate all of that in attempting to assuage their own guilt by dumping the blame on people who have NO connection with writing the show at all. They made their bed and now that it's uncomfortable as hell, they don't want to lie in it. Hate to tell them but that's too damned bad. Instead of being adults and owning up to the facts, they decided that spouting spurious, fallacious arguments to a group of people who are nothing more than Joss Whedon cheerleaders and who constantly leave their logic checked at the door, is the best way to vilify their actions. I don't buy it for a second. Sounds to me like they got their little feelings hurt and they're lashing out the best way they know how (which is still lame and weak even for their best attempts).



I've got news for Jane, just because she has a Master's in Linguistics doesn't guarantee that she can read between the lines and understand what is being said by those who support the Lesbian FAQ. She clearly misunderstands the language and the message that has been time and again relayed. I think she should ask for her money back because apparently that degree of hers isn't doing her much good in this case. And I have no idea what the hell Drew's problem is. Honestly? I'm not sure I care. Sounds to me like a lot of sour grapes.



Done ranting now.

T.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Senses"

Edited by: Kieli at: 10/15/02 10:09:09 am

Kyra: Just want to say, quickly, change my last name to Affleck and lets change yours to Joey Lauren Adams, because I'm in love with you. What you wrote was damn-near perfect, and I only wish Drew Z. G .and Jane E. would read it.



And HIP: Just to keep us factually accurate, which we should do, Buffy's press hasn't been "universally" horrid. Some writers are liking the new season.



What *is* universal, at least as far as I've seen, is the press stories about how much Buffy's ratings have fallen, and how that's partially responsible for how low UPN is as a whole at the moment. And those same press sources, which I like because they're unlikely to spin anything either way as ME, people who still like Buffy, or even you or I might, say that Angel is looking solid.



Sorry to nitpick, but it's those little inconsistencies that "the other side" likes to focus on and ignore the good parts of our arguments.

Ben Varkentine

"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."--Dorothy Parker

BEn - please note I said press for season six was universally horrid - not season 7 -- though it should be noted that every piece I've read on season 7 has opened by with a referance to how bad season 6 was







____

my contribution to the effort - not much with the writing stuff, more with the number crunching myself, but I can cut, paste and organize. So here is my updated list of the media on this issue to date. Perhaps there is info, websites, etc here that you would like to disseminate or that will be helpful to others who do write - well and often



you can find the quotes from ME 'then and now' here

www.puk.de/ivanova/toaster_neub.html



FYI we now know that the Advocate did their piece on the W/T issue because of all the mail they were getting. So letter writing is effective!



a running list of media pieces on W/T and the cliche.





+++From the Papers:+++



OK so starting with two pieces that shouldn't be lost even if the links are now in the papers archieves



Boston Herald

www.bostonherald.com/

Television; The Friday Rant

Boston Herald; Boston, Mass.; May 10, 2002; MARK PERIGARD;



Strip UPN's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" of good writing, clever dialogue, frightening menaces and believable characters and you are stuck with this season. This week's episode was especially depressing, capped by the murder of Tara (AMBER BENSON) in the closing moment, another cruel twist in a cold season. Over on FX, where the good seasons of "Buffy" are repeated, the show's writers brag during commercial breaks about how no character is safe on the show.



But examine that body count for a moment. The most significant character deaths - Jenny, Calendar, Joyce Summers and now Tara - are all women. The show's two gay characters, Tara and high school jock Larry, both slain (ALYSON HANNIGAN's Willow does not count.



Creator JOSS WHEDON told the Herald last year that she is at best bisexual) The show's black characters? Kendra, Mr Trick and oh yeah, that guidance counselor who hung around for half an episode - all dead. We knew that Buffy lived on a hellmouth. Who knew she lived in Klan country?

____

San Francisco Chronicle

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/ar...241518.DTL

by Tim Goodman

San Francisco Chronicle TV critic

tgoodman@sfchronicle.com



“Sorry for the delayed rant -- it gets awfully busy during finale time -- here's hoping another favorite series, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," gets a lot better in a hurry next year. If the writers need to work out personal issues, let us know in advance so we can watch "Gilmore Girls" instead. Finale: subpar.”

___



Miami Herald

Cracking the closet door

www.miami.com/mld/miamihe...623355.htm

___



Sacramento News and Reviews

Witch Love Spells Death

www.newsreview.com/issues...6/Arts.asp

Letters

www.newsreview.com/issues...etters.asp

___



Is there life after death on 'Buffy'?

The Birmingham News

www.al.com/entertainment/...198910.xml



NFL: From bait to worse

Published October 8, 2002

www.orlandosentinel.com/s...-headlines



[Allow me to pause in this NFL obit to explain "jump the shark," in case you do not know the phrase. It comes from a Web site of the same name (http://www.jumptheshark.com), designed to point out the moment something good began to go bad.



Why "jump the shark?" That's from the moment in Happy Days when Fonzie -- wearing his leather jacket while on water skies in the Pacific -- indeed does jump over a shark. At that precise moment, Happy Days went into the Dumpster.



Everybody can think of that terrible moment for former favorite TV shows -- When The X-Files made the movie -- when they killed Tara in Buffy the Vampire Slayer -- when Niles and Daphne got together in Frasier -- when everybody got together in Friends.]





+++Mags & websites on line++++



and what follows is a summation of articles with associated letters sections if they have them



The Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché FAQ

pub106.ezboard.com/ftheki...=434.topic

also

www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...cliche.php



The Dead, the Evil, and the Insane

www.quiknet.com/~lcountry/cliche2.html



Oasis Mag.

Rest in Peace

thebunnyslayer.oasismag.c...yReader$42



Pop Matters Mag

Three articles from Pop matters, two pro-Tara, one pro-Whedon.

www.popmatters.com/tv/rev...yer2.shtml

www.popmatters.com/tv/rev...yer3.shtml

www.popmatters.com/tv/rev...yer4.shtml



Salon

Letters at Salon.com

www.salon.com/ent/letters...dex.html?x



Xtreme Gaming

The Message Is - "Pay Attention to the Message"

www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...ssage.html



It's Not Homophobia, But That Doesn't Make It Right

www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...hobia.html



"I Know Why Willow Weeps"

www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...llary.html

home.attbi.com/~brannantim/hillary.html



Secrets and Lies Beyond the Fourth Wall

The part of Tara's death Mutant Enemy won't discuss

www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...death.html



The Executive Producer's New Clothes

www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...othes.html



Roland Green "On Mutations: An Sf Pro's Polite Perspective"

www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...green.html



Sci fi Dimensions

Lesbians, Where Art Thou?

www.scifidimensions.com/J...rtthou.htm



Letters: there were so many the mag had to give them a full page of their own!

www.scifidimensions.com/A...sbians.htm



Sci fi Wire

Tara’s Death Riles Buffy Fans, SciFi.com

www.scifi.com/scifiwire/a....30.fandom



Letters: www.scifi.com/sfw/issue268/letters.html

www.scifi.com/sfw/issue269/letters.html

www.scifi.com/sfw/issue270/letters.html

www.scifi.com/sfw/issue271/letters.html

www.scifi.com/sfw/issue274/letters.html



Letters from Camp Rehobeth

Student CAMP: Heterosexuality Wins

www.camprehoboth.com/issu...ntcamp.htm





Sex, Lies & btw.: Don't Buy Their Video Tapes!

www.puk.de/ivanova/toaster_neub.html

(Very interesting because it compares quotes from ME writers over the last year.)





The Death of Tara Exposes Willow's Darkside and Fans Outrage

tampabaycoalition.homeste...traged.htm

Letters: tampabaycoalition.homeste...Letter.htm



The Reign of Tara

Wanda talks with Joss Whedon on fan outrage.

www.eonline.com/Gossip/Wa...0726c.html



Cinescape

A Cinescape Poll on what people thought of Season 6.

www.cinescape.com/0/poll....Television



Lesbian Nation

Buffy finale, Finally!

www.lesbianation.com/arti...4&id=10414

and

Lesbian Media Blender

07.16.02 By Tammy Fo

www.lesbianation.com/arti...4&id=10740



Ink19

The Death of Tara and "The Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché"

www.ink19.com/issues/july...otThe.html



Media Matters

A Heinous Cliché Raises Its Ugly Head

By Rodger Streitmatter

www.gaytoday.com/entertain/072902en.asp



From Curve

“Disappointed in Buffy”



“I know that your publication has supported Willow and Tara on “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” and I hope you plan to voice your disappointment about the recent lesbian cliché storyline on “Buffy” (“Seeing Red,” season 6, episode 19).



In the past, Joss Whedon and his writers promised not to invoke the lesbian cliché on “Buffy” because they were aware of how often lesbians in the media are sentenced to death, evilness, or neverending heartbreak…Yet, in an attempt to boost ratings during May sweeps, the two lesbian stars suffered just that fate. Tara was senselessly killed in front of her lover (after many hours of sex together) and Willow became evil.



“Buffy” has had four gay characters – Larry, Andrew, Willow, and Tara. Two are dead and two became evil. So much for fighting the cliché…



Many of the show’s fans are boycotting “Buffy” based on the “Seeing Red” episode and are also boycotting “Buffy” merchandise.



I urge you to publicize the gay community’s reaction concerning the show’s recent developments and the devastating impact they are having on a community that was told it was safe to believe.”



Send letters to letters@curvemag.com





From The Advocate August 20

Lesbian Sex = Death

By Andy Mangels

In more than five years on TV, Buffy the Vampire Slayer has endured more than a few bloody scrapes. Even as the series dealt with changing networks and Emmy snubs, the characters in Sunnydale faced death every night. In a series in which the lead character has died and returned twice, perhaps the biggest stake in the heart came in May's controversial finale to the sixth season.



In it powerful witch Willow and her female lover , Tara, who was often the show's most responsible and mature character, got to have glorious, sweaty lesbian sex on camera. And then, moments later, Tara (Amber Benson) was killed by a stray bullet to the heart, launching Willow (Alyson Hannigan) on a descent into black magic vengeance that not only turned her into a killer but imperiled her friends, her sanity, and eventually the world itself. The resulting public backlash against the series's events has ignited newspaper columns and Internet Web sites.



But to what end ? According to many fans the season finale reversed anything good that was accomplished by this all too-rare TV lesbian relationship. FanE.M. Colson notes that "whether viewers are conscious of the juxtaposition or not, murdering a lesbian just minutes after she has sex suggests a causality between lesbian sex and death."

Buffy creator Joss Wheden notes that he grew up with a gay godfather and that his mother provided "a liberal upbringing". Marti Noxon, Buffy's executive producer , was raised by two mothers. Both Wheden and Noxon wanted to do a Willow-Tara relationship 'that felt respectful and fully fleshed out" says Noxon.



Willow's character didn't start out gay, but two season's ago she fell in love with Tara. According to Amy Wilson, coauthor of the online "The Death of Tara, the Fall of Willow, and the Dead - Evil Lesbian Cliche FAQ", the show was successful in its lesbian portrayal: "Up until the finale of season six [Willow and Tara] were treated with remarkable sensitivity and realism, even if their onscreen sex life was mostly nonexistent. Because Willow was an established, beloved character before she came out, the Willow-Tara story line forced many Buffy viewers to confront their homophobic attitude whether latent or overt".



Wilson complains that "Joss Wheden and [his] staff writers gained trust [about Tara's future on the show] under false pretenses, then leveled viewers with a bloody, cliched story line". And then there's the question of whether Willow's turning to the dark side in her rage equates to the "murderous lesbian" stereotype fostered by such films as Basic Instinct and TV shows like Law and Order and Quantum Leap.



Producer Noxon says, "We never thought about the fact that these characters were gay when we were deciding what their fate was going to be. They've been happy and together for longer than almost any couple on our show. In some ways I think it is kind of insulting to the gay community to suggest that we can't do to the gay characters on the show what we would do to anybody else". As for the sex scene, both agree that it was some time in coming, and Wheden adds, "We also felt a little bit that this is the last chance we're going to have to do this - and let's push that envelope a little bit".

So what was Wheden's reason for killing Tara? "I killed her because I wanted to explore the dark side of Willow, and I needed to justify that," he says. "It may be fine on another show for people to break up but we're dealing with heavier, more iconic, scarier storybook stuff. The downside of that is, when you kill a character like Tara, statistically speaking, [lesbians] are underrepresented and so people have a legitimate reason to say 'It's not the same' ".



Noxon says the negative reaction has "been hard. It's the first time that we've gotten public outcry where I really can't even read some of the letter, they hurt so much. It's very indicative of how underrepresented gay people feel in the culture. Because the kinds of letters we've gotten have been so emotional and so personal and so deeply felt, you realize that every single instance of a positive portrayal of gay love on television means so much to people".



Noxon and Wheden are adamant that Willow won't suddenly turn bisexual. "Marti and I have had a discussion where we're like, 'We do that now, and we will be burned alive'. And possibly justifiably," says Wheden. "We can't have Willow say, 'Oh, cured now, I can go back to cock!' Willow is not going to be straddling that particular fence. She will just be gay."



Noxon's lesbian mothers were "bummed out that this relationship was over" but "have been calling pretty frequently , asking if Tara's coming back, magically." The answer to that question, for a show whose very title includes undead characters in it, is nebulous. "Tara will not be back, but [actor] Amber Benson will [assuming she's available],' says Wheden. "Everybody works on my show way more after they die".



and in response the Advocate got letters

September 17th 2002

Letters section

Reign of Tara (Yes, this is the actual title they gave this section)



#1



I was disappointed with Andy Mangels’s article “Lesbian Sex = Death?” [August 20]. He got many quotes from the creators of Buffy the Vampire Slayer but failed to adequately express the viewpoints of many of the fans who were dismayed by the negative gay image portrayed with Tara’s death. Once again we are shown a lesbian dying after sex and her lover becoming evil or insane. I was not upset that Tara died, as death is common on that show, but with the manner in which it was presented.

Sonia Collazo, Los Angeles, Calif.





#2



It was correct of you to point out the gay-phobic cliché embodied in Tara’s death immediately after having lesbian sex with Willow. It would have been even better if you had also pointed out the bi-phobic cliché embodied in Marti Noxon’s assurance that Willow will not suddenly turn bisexual and Joss Whedon’s comment “We can’t have Willow say, ‘Oh, cured now, I can go back to cock!’ Willow is not going to be stradling that particular fence. She will just be gay.”

I don’t necessarily want Willow to announce she’s bisexual just as she begins an exploration of her dark side, as that would reinforce other bi-phobic cliches. But I would like the producers to consider creating a positive bisexual character who is able to love and appreciate people with different types of genitalia. There are even fewer positive bisexual role models in the media than there are gay ones.

Kathryn Grannis, Los Angeles, Calif.



#3

Is it just me, or hasn’t “sex = death” always been a recurring theme in horror movies? I mean, how many hormonal teenagers were cliced apart by maniacs in the slasher films of the 80s? I have a question: Does motherhood = death? Because on the Buffy spin-off Angel, Darla stakes herself shortly after giving birth. If we look too closely, we’ll probably end up finding that chocolate pudding = death somewhere. Judging art in a political space is always difficult, because if we keep making art that’s politically correct, we’ll end up with movies where the only acceptable villains or victims would be straight white men. Inclusion means inclusion. That means our characters will die, like all other characters.

Joseph Rampp, Baltimore, Md.



#4



For the first time in many years, I am actually a bit ashamed of the lesbian community. I have been a huge fan of Buffy, and subsequently Joss Whedon, for six seasons now. I find it unbelievable that the death of Tara has caused such a negative backlash for the show’s writers and producers. I applaud Whedon and his writers for being able to keep viewers shocked for six years.

The backlash is understandable- there is need for positive gay and lesbian characters on TV, and there are negative stereotypes these characters too often fall into. However, we should never rely on TV characters for good role models. Beyond that, we are looking way too deeply into all this- Buffy is an extravagant show, and Tara’s death was a jaw-dropping, heartbreaking event that defines what wonderful series writing is about. Keep up the good work, Mr. Whedon; this lesbian can’t wait to see what’s next.

Analese Alvarez, Oxnard, Calif.





Send letters to:

letters@advocate.com

or

Letters To the Editor

The Advocate

PO Box 4371

Los Angeles, CA

90078

or

FAX (323) 467-6805





AfterEllen.com

www.afterellen.com/TV/buffy.html

Quote:



Maybe in all this slaying, "Buffy" has forgotten that when a television show starts being careless with its viewers attachments and emotions, it starts to lose them. That would be a shame, since lesbian/bisexual fans have been some of the show's biggest supporters.



This isn't exactly your average show. People die every week on "Buffy." It's just that usually they're vampires or demons, not lesbians (even though some people on the Far Right get us confused occasionally).



After killing Tara, they're going to have to try harder to keep my loyalty next season. Bringing her back would be a start, but if that can't happen then at least give Willow (and the fans) another shot at a happy lesbian relationship.



Dust to Dust Death Becomes Them

www.scoopme.com/tv/articl...e_id=67668

Note you can post feedback on this article at the sites board follow line at end of article



DIVA

From the Letters to the DIVA Editor: The death of Tara and the madness of Willow...lesbian cliché anyone???

www.divamag.co.uk/diva/de...up&top=382



You can send Letters to:

The Editor, DIVA Magazine, Spectrum House, 32-34 Gordon House Road, London NW5 1LP.

or

Email to: edit@divamag.co.uk



and in the NOV 2002 Diva Mag

www.divadirect.co.uk/diva...0&Sin=8182

And another thing... RIP Tara: The writers of Buffy the Vampire Slayer have fallen for the oldest cliche around. If a lesbian couple is happily in love, one of them has to die.



Scan of the piece here

xita.org/kitten/kittens/d...ourned.jpg



text:

RIP Tara: Lesley Davis mourns a much-loved television lesbian and asks, why did she have to die?



There’s something new stalking the streets of Sunnydale: the worn out cliché. It’s the one where the lesbian has to die and her girlfriend goes crazy with grief and has to destroy the world or something equally extreme. Sadly, the writers of “Buffy The Vampire Slayer” decided to resurrect this plot for the programme’s sixth season. The final episodes saw a beloved character killed and her girlfriend turn evil. Why? Joss Whedon, the show’s writer, confessed: “I killed Tara. Some of you may have been hurt by that. It’s very unlikely it was more painful to you than it was to me. I couldn't even discuss it in story meetings without getting upset, physically. Which is why I knew it was the right thing to do. Because stories, as I have so often said, are not about what we want. And I knew some people would be angry with me for destroying the only gay couple on the show, but the idea that I couldn’t kill Tara because she was gay is as offensive to me as the idea that I did kill her because she was gay.”



Offended doesn’t begin to cover how watching one half of TV’s most loving lesbian couple brutally slain has caused people to react. Willow, (American Pie’s Alyson Hannigan), the computer whiz, left her werewolf boyfriend and fell for Tara, a shy, blonde witch played by Amber Benson (writer/producer of the film Chance). They practiced magic but also “did spells”. The whole “spells” thing soon was translated to mean sex. But Warner Brothers, distributors of Buffy at the time, were uneasy with the lesbian angle. The “spells” were alluded to, there was only one full-lipped kiss, given in solace. Tara and Willow were loving lesbians who weren’t allowed to be seen to love. It was better for them to go and “do a spell together” than it would have been to announce they were fully-fledged lesbians who had sex together. Substitute “lesbian” for Wicca in Season Five’s Tara-centred episode Family, for example, and it’s obvious what everyone is talking about.



XANDER: “Well, that's sort of her deal. Her and Willow are all Wiccie. Swingin' with the Wiccan lifestyle.”



With the move to a new network, UPN, in Series Six, the show became much darker. They were able to show more kissing; Willow and Tara were allowed to become more than the token lesbians. Oddly, they stood out as the only real couple on the show, in part due to the little touches both actresses brought to their characters. Buffy slept with the enemy, bad-boy vampire Spike, which ended up in a scene of attempted rape. The other straight couple, Xander and Anya, argued their way nearly to the alter, until that turned sour too. Even Willow and Tara eventually broke up because of Willow’s dependence on “dark magic”.



The blatantly rushed reunion of Willow and Tara was every fan’s dream: they kissed, they clung, they lay naked in bed and hardly ever left the sheets. When they did eventually leave the bedroom, however, we were forced to witness the sight of Willow covered in her lover’s blood. It was cruel, senseless and disturbing. In grief and rage, Willow turned bad, wreaked havoc and skinned the man who murdered Tara. Man- hating lesbian, now there’s a new theme. Then she tried to destroy the Earth. Her friend Xander managed to stop her when he told her how much he loved her.



The bad lesbian brought back to earth by the love of a good man. Only not that kind of love. No, Willow will probably go on to be the token lesbian character in the show, one safely rendered asexual without Tara by her side.



Everything Mutant Enemy (Buffy’s production company) built up in these characters was ruined, wasted, debauched. Characters who had been held up as role models by Whedon were then reduced to ratings fodder. The programme championed feminism and showed that good triumphs over evil, but it has also shown that if you are a lesbian, sooner or later you are going to pay for it.



Buffy’s writers constantly reassured the fans that Tara would be staying. Every season they said she was safe, they wouldn’t get rid of her, they were aware of her following. In January of this year, Joss Whedon told Entertainment Weekly; "I have no plans to send Tara anywhere. Amber (Benson) and Alyson (Hannigan) have such great chemistry; they're so great together, and they're very romantic together…”



They lied. The Internet is rife with petitions, chat boards, Tara lists, all up in arms. It’s not just lesbians either; Tara was seen as an excellent role model for everyone, seen as more than just her sexuality.



“Stories, as I have so often said, are not about what we want.” Joss Whedon.



Whedon believes we needed to see this happen. I didn’t. If you have the power to create a world of fantasy, why not indulge it a little further? Make a place where gays don’t get punished because of who they love. Mutant Enemy needs to see that doing something because they didn't like being told they couldn't isn't a good enough excuse. What kind of message are they broadcasting? Not the sort that I, as a lesbian, want to watch. If I want that kind of thing, reality has enough to show me.





Buffy In The Guardian

www.ltmiz.com/wtrm/links/...rdian.html





Excellent Piece in German mag

September Issue of "Lespress"

www.lespress.de/

scans

kittenboard.com/kitten/sc...press1.jpg

kittenboard.com/kitten/sc...press2.jpg

translation by kukalaka

The Kitten, The Witches And The Bad Ending

The lesbian theme in "Buffy's" 6th season



Yes, there's a lesbian boom on TV. This doesn't only apply to German soaps, where two women being connected by more than just friendship aren't special anymore, but also to US-American productions, that have conquered TV-screens in this country a long time ago. We can watch coming outs of young and not-that-young-anymore women, sometimes gentle and sometimes wilder kisses between girls or lesbian weddings on countless shows of different genres. But there's one form of lesbian love you still have to look for with a magnifying glass: There's almost no TV-show with a lesbian long-term relationship.



How good, that there's "Buffy"! In this series with fantasy elements, that probably was originally designed as a show for teenagers, but has become distinctly darker and more complex by now, Willow, the best friend of the main star, falls in love with Tara who has witch powers just as she herself. In the course of the series both, the magical abilities and the relationship, of the two young women progress. Starting with romantical being in love, it grows stronger during the 5th season, that shows the depth of their feelings for each other again and again. Even though several problems appear, their love proves to be the deciding power, that is stronger than all adversities, and thus leads to a good end of the 5th season, at least for the couple.



[There's a big part that describes what happens during season 6 and I'm just going to skip that and get to the point. It's very matter of fact, you're not missing anything.]



[...] At the end it's her old childhood friend Xander, who overcomes the evil power by telling Willow that he loves her again and again until the black magic disappears and the young woman breaks down crying in his arms to finally mourn. The spell is broken and we too finally realize that this is the end of a wonderful female relationship - in contrast to the explicit promises of the "Buffy"-executives by the way!



No wonder the lesbian fans of the series cried out against this conclusion of the lesbian plot in the USA. For instance, there is an extremely detailed argumentation on why Taras death means such a catastrophe on the "the kitten, the witches and the bad wardrobe" fan site on the internet. One of the most important reasons is the fact that a good, working partnership between two women - in fact, the only one anywhere - has been destroyed: All other lesbians on TV are either lonely and unhappy, have constantly changing partners or aren't really "visible", appearing only in small parts.



Together with the living, dynamic and loving relationship between Willow and Tara (both repeatedly declare, the love of the other one has made them more self-assured and happier), who even acted as "surrogate parents" for Buffy's little sister (after the break-up of the couple, Tara assures Dawn, that her love for her will never change), two important homosexual role-models disappear from the screen. This is more than tragic for young homosexuals in a homophobic country, for whom there are pitiful few positive examples they can look at anyway. The drastic way (Tara's blood splashes on Willow's white shirt) adds an additional unnecessary cruelty. The clarity of scenes has increased distinctly due to the show going from Warner to UPN, which increases the intensity of representation during the whole 6th season, for example with graphic (heterosexual) sex scenes, and finally grants our lesbian couple extended kiss and even bed scenes after a single comforting kiss in the previous season.



Unfortunately [it's actually a stronger term] there is punishment right after pleasure... Even though this message probably wasn't intended, the obvious association can't be avoided: The first episode, that not only contains numerous sexual remarks, but that also has the couple spending almost all of their time together in bed, ends with the death of one of them and the resulting vengeance campaign of the other one - right after the first scene, that more than just hinted at sex between the two women (which is probably exactly why it was cut) and in the sleeping room of one of them of all locations! Death as punishment for lesbian sex?!



This exactly fits the very annoying, but obviously still not extinguished, cliché, the so-called "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché" that, in essence, says, that lesbians on TV either die or become/are evil at the end (Willow and Tara even fulfill both clichés at once!). In any case, they have no chance of luck, which Willow herself affirms at the end of the season. A more than shattering message, that probably wasn't intended by "Buffy"-producer Joss Whedon, but really suggests itself.



Well, one of the advantages of a fantasy series is that even developments that appear to be final can be reversed. Who knows, maybe Tara will return!? It really would be something to hope for.

_____



Siren

http://www.siren.ca

article by Susan Shea

who notes the Lesbian honeymoon with network TV is over and producers are 'over it'.

Article discusses how the lesbian story-line on ER has been severely marginalized, as well as the lesbian story line on Buffy. "The second major letdown occurred on the mostly dyke-positive Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where everyone's favorite couple of dyke-lettes, Willow and Tara, finally enjoyed some explicit onscreen action. This pleasing development was largely negated seconds later by the murder of Tara, a gratuitously violent plot twist used to advance the finale's wholly unbelievable premise.

Executive Producer, Joss Wheldon, was reported to have cavalierly remarked, about killing off half of TV's only lesbian couple, that 'gay is passe' and that fans forced him into the decision by imploring him not to do it."



Write Siren at

128 Danforth Ave. Box 109 Toronto, On. Canada. M4K 1N1

or siren@interlog.com





____



+++major sci fi mags++++

several (though not on line) have covered the W/T debacle including these letters:



Dreamwatch (#96) with editor commentary regarding Tara's death. on the letters page alongside a pretty big picture of Tara.



Quote:

-------------

When I first heard the rumours of a Big Scooby Death in the sixth season, I had no doubt it would be Tara. I knew it in my gut. Add to that the knowledge that Willow would be season six's Big Baddie and it was practically confirmed.



I knew it would be tragic and tried to prepare myself - boy, was I not ready...but the way it was handled by the producers made it that much worse.



I've never felt this angry about a TV show before. Sure, I've watched other shows in which my favourite character dies or leaves but never have I felt so disrespected as a fan.



Personally, I wanted to watch an escapist TV show where I could see the characters get knocked down but rise to their feet again, beating adversity against all odds. I wanted to see the only lesbian couple on TV have a loving and happy relationship. I wanted angst, yes, but not brutality.



As for my needs, I didn't need to see the tragic death of a wonderful character (seing Buffy's mom in The Body was enough, thank you). Buffy and Angel have been brought back from the dead, I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to find a way to bring Tara back as well.



As for season seven, we have been reassured that, hey, at least Willow's still around, at least she's still gay. The producers seem to have missed the point. It was Willow and Tara together that was so special. I love Tara, I love Willow, but even though Willow will be in season seven, it won't be the same because they won't be together. It's their relationship I adored; it's their relationship that I'm in mourning for.



Thanks again, Joss, for giving me what I needed.



Katrina Wallace



We were saddened by Tara's death too, Katrina, and we're sorry we couldn't publish the whole of your heartfelt letter. On a more positive thought, perhaps Whedon's sensitive portrayal of a lesbian relationship will open the way for further such couplings on television, which can surely only be good for all communities.





*****

and from Cult Times (#83)



S Collazo

E-mail

Thanks for your article on Buffy Jumping the Shark. I agree with everything you said about the sixth season. I'm one of the fans who feel the show jumped the shark when they killed the character of Tara in such a clichéd manner. Killing a lesbian after sex and/or turning one evil is a common cliché used in the media to show that gays are bad or immoral. This does not mean that Mutant Enemy is homophobic in any way. I do, however, think that they were aware of the cliché as this statement from one of the show's writers indicates:

Doug Petrie (Sci-Fi Universe, 21/2/00): "Willow and Tara are going to have a good, happy, satisfying relationship. That's something that we're more acutely aware of and we definitely don't want to touch on 'being a lesbian is bad.' We've all seen shows where if you have any kind of gay tendencies, you must be killed or made to suffer for no reason other than you're gay. We're hyper aware of that, so we're more predisposed to have things work out for Willow and Tara. In fact, if Tara were a guy, I would predict a near 100 per cent chance of a break-up for Willow. The fact that Tara is not a guy may make things work out better, because we can avoid what we feel is this old cliché."

Buffy used to turn clichés on their head and now they can't even tell if they are doing one.



SFX #96 (October 2002 issue)

Ta-ra, Tara!



Dear SFX,

I'm writing this letter to convey how upset I am by the death of Tara on Buffy. Willow and Tara were, as far as I am aware, the only long-term lesbian couple on TV involving two regular characters. They represented the gay community and demonstrated to everyone that gays could have a healthy, happy relationship, just like everyone else. For that, I am eternally grateful to Joss Whedon, Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson, who all helped to bring this wonderful relationship to the screen. Unfortunately, this still does not excuse the brutal way Willow and Tara's story was ended.



Joss Whedon has stated that he didn't kill Tara because she was a lesbian and I believe that. She has been on the show for over two and a half years and if that were the reason there would've been plenty of opportunity to kill her before this. However, intentions are irrelevant here. In my opinion, Tara's death and Willow's subsequent descent into evil was yet another example of the dead/evil lesbian cliché.



Specifically, at the end of the episode where Tara and Willow were shown to have had their most realistic portrayal of lesbian sex for the first time on the show (no magical metaphors here), one of them was brutally murdered and the other became evil. Pretty much confirming that if you have gay sex, bad things are going to happen to you. Intentional or not, I find this perpetuation of the cliché disappointing, especially from a TV series that I thought was above using clichés.



It doesn't help that ever since the episode aired, I've read numerous gay-bashing posts on posting boards cheering that Tara is finally dead and that she got what she deserved. Her death has certainly not helped the perception of gays in the media at all.



I believe Joss' ignorance ultimately killed Tara. He knew what the Willow and Tara relationship signified to the gay community, he knew what Tara meant to the fans, but he disregarded the consequences of this storyline and underestimated the full impact that her death would have on people, and in my opinion that makes it worse, because he should've known better.



I know for a fact that fans who've supported Buffy from the beginning are walking away from the show next year. And I will be one of them. As far as I'm concerned Willow died right along with Tara, so I won't be watching season seven.



Katrina Wallace, cyberspace



I wouldn't take the insane rantings of a few air-headed bigots on a Buffy newsgroup as evidence of a general homophobia in the Buffy fan ranks. I think the portrayal of the Willow/Tara relationship has increased heterosexual understanding and tolerance of a gay partnership. But it IS a shame that that relationship won't be continued. Let's hope she finds another chick sometime soon... Steve



___



“Tara Support” sites.

www.xtreme-gaming.com/the...eason7.php

hometown.aol.com/zenobiax...ttons.html

www.savedarkangel.org/ Look at the bottom of their page!



______



Major Mag Boards etc to give feedback at



TV gal board

tvbb.zap2it.com/cgi-bin/f...&SUBMIT=Go



Diva

www.divadirect.co.uk/diva/



Entertainment Weekly Feedback board

www.ew.com/ew/article/lat...73,00.html



Curve Mag Feedback Board

www.curvemag.com/speak/sh...genumber=1



Firefly website

www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=9&t=338



Lesb. Nation has a forum for feedback



new.lesbianation.com/my_l...m?forum=58



Advocate (see above)



xpose@visimag.com

FAX +1 (818) 980-6061 US

FAX +44 (0)20 8875 1588 UK



What can you do?

1) fax the articles to FOX/UPN so they know the word is "out there" and spreading



2) send "letters to the editors" of the media presenting our opinions in hope they include them in their letters section.



3) Make the amount of play this issue is getting in the media immediately evident to the suits



DAWN TARNOFSKY-OSTROFF

PRESIDENT, UPN

11800 WILSHIRE BLVD.

LOS ANGELES, CA 90025



Call UPN.

(310) 575-7000. Ask to leave a message on the "Viewer Hotline".



feedback@upn.com

feedback@fox.com

AmyTVGal, Zap2it [AmyTVGal@Zap2it.com]

wanda@eonline.com

Remember to put Buffy in the subject line



Website set up with links to write letters for W/T

www.quiknet.com/~lcountry/tarawill.html





edited with help from friskylez and Webwarlock!

Edited by: helpful information perhaps at: 10/28/02 12:20:04 pm

You know, I really don't know why we bother. Why on earth did we try to engage them in any kind of debate if that's the best argument they can come up with? I am not going to hurl insults, much as I feel like it, b/c that would just reduce me to their level. What I am going to say is that I believe that, if the writers of ME are so annoyed at having their work criticised in any way, shape or form, they simply shouldn't put it in the public domain in the first place.

When I started watching 'Buffy', I did not sign up to the Mutant Enemy Doctrine of Writer Infallibility. Apparently I should have done, because it seems that writing for ME automatically places a writer above any kind of criticism, and that, by tuning into 'Buffy', you apparently forfeit your right to criticise anything the writers do, ever.

Willow worries that the gang won't like her anymore. Maybe she could try to rape one of them, leave a fiance at the altar, and tie up her friends so a demon could kill them. Then she'd fit right in. - My fiance's review of Beneath You.

Edited by: tyche at: 10/15/02 10:34:28 am

And here I always thought that writers were supposed to welcome critiques of their work....something about helping them to get better at their craft or some such like that. Guess they must have missed that memo.



The problem is, to some extent, we helped to build up that swelled head of ME. We were so happy that a group of television writers supposedly "got it" that it went to their heads far quicker than we had imagined. They started to think of themselves as beyond god-like status wherein they felt perfectly justified in doing what they pleased to the characters they created, assuming that we as worshipping fans would just "go along for the ride". They stopped thinking of the GLBT fandom as an intelligent one once the kudos started rolling in. They assumed that their fandom would just be herded along like so much bleating sheep without intelligently dissecting the episodes and really understanding what was going on. Their mistake.



I agree with Tyche, if they didn't want to be held up to a standard and have their writing criticized, well Hollywood sure as hell ain't the place for them. I'm impressed, proud and honoured to be a part of such an intelligent, motivated community. In believing that we didn't have a collective brain, ME did a disservice to us, to their actors and to themselves. So much potential....all wasted because of ego. How depressing.



T.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Senses"

The major consolation is that by next year the writers won't have a show to defend, and 'that board' won't have anything to talk about except nostalgia.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

Edited by: Sheridan at: 10/15/02 12:11:49 pm

I can hear it now.... "Hey how about when they shot Tara? Wasn't that the, like, coolest storyline ever?" "It was soooo dark. The best they ever did. Remember that whole Lesbian Cliche thing? I just loved it when they totally jumped the shark. Ahh the memories."



I'd better stop before my bitterness gets the best of me

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Senses"

tyche

we bother because if you don't stand up to bullies they continue to bully and if you don't stand up to injustice then injustice continues



we bother because its the right thing to do



looks to me like

the cassie website was

a ME stunt to get a net buzz going for the show



I'd bet mutant enemy either it up /had it set up as a ploy and the writers came onto the board that shall not be named in mass to get it front and center/raise web buzz about the show -



the fact that web warlock and others diverted their efforts to W/T and the cliche kind of frustrated their efforts at their little cassie ploy and their tempers flared



they came to raise the ratings and had to face a lot of fans who were their to raise their objections to ME's failings



ME's cassie ploy was a bust

The cliche stays as a thorn in the side of ME

and the internet buzz remains on W/T



so I'd say congrads to those who made the effort

Edited by: helpful information perhaps at: 10/15/02 11:39:10 am

See now I am totally f***ed off all over again.



I was actually one who was willing to listen to SDK's recent apology for his earlier behaviour. And you know what... I think this latest stuff actually lends credence to it. IMHO I think this just goes to show that maybe he really did realise what he had done after the ep aired in his trite interviews - clearly he was not "under orders" to try and make things better because if there were order then these two would not have revealed their true colours.



It is just a damn shame that two of those who seemed to "get it" a damn sight earlier feel the need to spout off. After this I am more inclined to listen to SDK than either of these two. That is if I cared at all any more.



Frankly after this (on top of the rest), I couldn't care less if they brought Tara back in the ep that airs tonight and she and Willow have crazy naked sex until Ep 22 and everything was wonderful - I am still done with this sh*t. Before I was still willing to respect certain people at ME and yes, because some people still liked the show, I was not one who wanted it to fail (even if I was never watching again anyway.) People's livelihoods depended on it (by that I mean the crew.)



Now, whilst I will be sad for the "little guys and gals" who are out of a job at the end of Buffy I have to say I really couldn't care anymore what happens to any of it.



To dismiss a document as well thought out and considerate as the FAQ like that... and to call those who buy into it homophobic... I am shocked that people who can think that can string together an episode of television.



Oh I guess I might have stepped over the limits a little there. Mods do what you need to. I am really just past caring about any of it - it hurts too damn much to care. But I had to say that at least.



Katharyn

-------------------------


If I want a little pussy, I got my own to play with.
Chance in Chance.


------------------------

Edited by: Katharyn at: 10/15/02 12:10:04 pm

I keep reading this stuff over and over and I still can't quite believe what I'm seeing.



Is this seriously the best they can do? The hysterical lesbians attack didn't work - because it was shot down with logic and reasoned argument - so they have to resort to name-calling?



Oh hang on, why am I even surprised anymore? This just stinks of desperation. They couldn't argue they didn't know about the cliche, they couldn't argue they hadn't discussed it. Now they try and claim they knew about it all along and were actually subverting it.



Please. I'm sick of the spin. And sick of the constant shifting of the blame on to us. And the homophobe comment - I can't even begin to deal with that.

Bite me, Harris

So Joss had never heard of the lesbian cliche yet Drew is sufficiently steeped in its nuances to allow him to educate us all? Huh. Yeah, that works.



I realize I'm just a homophobe and therefore unable to appreciate the subtle beauty achieved by ME with Tara's murder and Willow's evil turn last season . . . so I'm probably way off the mark here.



November sweeps are just 2 weeks away and Buffy has fallen off of the media radar, except random mentions of how disappointing the ratings have been. And ratings have been disappointing to dismal, for BtVS, FF and Angel.



So if I'm a ME staff writer, my future employment prospects may seem rather tenuous compared to this time last year, or even at the beginning of September. I am facing the very real possibility that none of ME's shows will be on the air next year. Perhaps only one will be left by February 2003.



Joss has a development deal, so his employment is safe even though he may never be allowed to head up a show again. Marti has a brand new 3 year development deal, so her employment is safe, though she may be paired with a non-ME partner on future shows so as to avoid the morass of Season 6. SDK has a new deal with the Disney family, so his employment seems safe and fortuitously independent of ME/Joss/Marti.



But if I'm one of the other ME staff writers wondering if I'll have a job come spring, maybe it makes sense for me to publicly (though indirectly) defend Joss and Marti and the show in the hopes they'll take me along to their next projects. And if along the way I stir the internet pot and goose the ratings with sweeps fast approaching, it's all for the good.



Let's face it, the writers never pop up over there w/o an agenda.



Or maybe they're just not that bright.

I have been stewing about this all morning. I have one more thing to say.



DrewZ claims that Mutant Enemy treated Tara as an "individual". No they didn't. They treated her as a plot device. She was killed so that Willow could go evil, period. She was never given any storylines of her own or allowed to interact with the rest of the gang besides Willow until her death was decided upon, so that it would "hurt" the audience. After she was gunned down, her corpse was carried out in a body bag, and no one grieved for her. NO ONE. To date, none of the Scoobies have mentioned her name or even acknowledged that she existed. She has been effectively erased from the Buffyverse. Oh yes, Tara was treated as an individual, Drew. You just keep telling yourself that.



On a completely unrelated note, all the writers seemed to be ..... I dunno .... drunk or something. They were making very odd, nonsensical comments (besides DrewZ's outburst) (and not like the off-the-wall humor they usually show). Something seemed off to me. Did anyone else get that impression or am I way out in left field?

~~~~~~~~~~

"Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions.
It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference.
We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be." -- Angel

I'm so disappointed by this. I'm not sure what offends me more, that these people have failed to see our point, or that they've called me and my beloved community here homophobes. I'll get to that later though.



My first point is about writing. Now, I'm not a professional writer. My writing experience has been limited to fanfic and some private pieces of work. I don't get paid for writing and I'm not published; neither am I a writer for a successful television series. So my position is somewhat personal and limited as far as experience goes. However, I beta work that appears on Pens, and I also send my work to a beta reader. The one thing that I've found about writing is that you have to be able to take criticism. No matter what the nature, you need to be able to take a step back and look at your work from a different perspective. That's essential if you want to progress. People who can't take criticism end up writing the same story over and over and over. And that's not the nature of writing; it's not the nature of moving towards the pinnacle of the craft. It's not what I believe that good writing encompasses.



What Drew and Jane have showed here disappoints me because I always thought that they would be like me; in some sense they'd want to be better; they'd want to improve; that no matter how great the episodes they wrote were, that they'd want the next one they write to be better.



I feel sorry for them, because their comments indicate that that's not the case. They think that what they contributed to was perfect; that it didn't need criticism, that the thousand and one "beta readers" that watch their show on a weekly basis don't matter a jot. They've committed the worst act a writer can; they've stopped writing for anyone but themselves. And they've stopped listening to their betas. What a shame. Such an awful shame. I respected these people. I now no longer don't.



My second point; the accusation of homophobia. As a member of the Kitten Board, I find this labeling offensive. As a gay woman, I'm hurt, angry and insulted beyond belief. These people take words, mould them and put them together for a living. You'd think then, that they would have more respect for the importance that words play in our society. And yet, Mr Greenberg found it easy to call me a homophobe. Me; the person who cannot be with the woman she loves precisely because of that thing. Me; the woman whose relationship with her parents has broken down, perhaps irrevocably, because of that thing. Me; the woman who has been looking for thirty years for something, anything to give credence to my existence as a lesbian. And yet, I'm a homophobe because I didn't agree with his outright slaughter of a decent human being.



He wanted it to hurt? Well, Mr Greenberg; it does. It hurts more than you, a straight man, will ever know. And I suggest, just to finish what has become unutterably long and possibly very rambling, that anyone who has experienced homophobia, in whatever sense or whatever way, would hesitate before leveling that word at anyone else.



I'm finished. I apologise for the length of this post, but you know, like I said, I'm disappointed.

----------
"I'm not coming back."

Bravo tommo well said.

If I way add my two cents...

How dare they throw the word homophobe around like some every day dish cloth and how dare they accuse this organization, the very group of individuals who promote, educate and fight against this word, of being homophobic. What a cowardly bunch they are. What happened to there motto of "we want the fans to be involved, we want the fans to discuss, argue, comment about what is in Buffy". The same people who sought out and welcomed discussion in the past are the same who now can't deal with it. Everything was all fine and dandy when they were being praised for their efforts however when they are called on the table for there utter destruction and mishandling of the show and it's characters they shout out names and whine like spoiled children. They so don't get it and they truly never will. There words now, when there has been deafoning silent for the past several months, mean nothing. They call us names and try to vilify themselves and sure the huddled masses will beilieve them and go on there merry little ways. But those of us who know, those of us who live lives were we fear walking down the streets, those of us who have been called every hatefull name in the book, those of us who once had a dream that was Willow and Tara will survive. We will survive and continue to fight despite cowards and those who throw words around like rag dolls. We are a community which has endured much and we will continue on even after these hacks seep back into the ooze from which they reside.

Sorry for the rant, leaving now to unwind with some violent sports.

And, yet, I just can't seem to care


What, no hug