I totally agree with the notion of The Aeneid as "fanfic." Everything that Virgil wrote had a precedent elsewhere - he developed it, and contributed his ideas - but it started elsewhere. Similarly, Chaucer - borrowed from Boccaccio and others, Shakespeare - took ideas from contemporary plays, Milton - used the bible and the great epics, etc etc etc.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.



But I have a quibble with something from the article:

Quote:

---

"The idea that you have to create original characters to be any good," Cumberland observes, "is palpably untrue. Originality is just an invention of the high literary culture of modernism, which has come and gone.

---

Modernism for me includes James Joyce. James Joyce, who wrote that seminal modernist beast of a book Ulysses. Based on Homer's Odyssey. So, not so original, while being original as hell.

caged heart, I have that book and several others sitting on my shelf at home right now, but I haven't started yet. I have kept putting it off because I'm still emotional about Buffy, but thanks to your description of the slash article, I'll read it tonight.



I ended up writing a letter to the editor of the article that HIP posted at the beginning of this thread about the exclusion of f/f slash or other writing; if it gets printed, I'll post a link here.

"And I'm eating this banana. Lunchtime be damned!" -- Willow in "Doppelgangland

HERE HERE!!!



-Mickie

A doodle... I do doodle... You, too...
You do doodle, too...

Buffy/Dawn? Might I add a hearty



B/D fic is just another example of how in the minds of certain folks, when it comes to the need for girl on girl action, any ol' two girls will do, squick factor be damned.



Blech.

"Spank me, I'm Julia." -Binty McBint

Most certainly agreeing with Ruth and Julia on this one. I shuddered violently when the concept was even mentioned. All I could think was "Ew.......EW!"

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

Edited by: BytrSuite at: 12/11/02 1:31:05 pm

Ok, to try to give you a response. B/D is the kind of fic where it stops being about character development. Looking at the show, can you realistically find a way for Buffy and Dawn to engage in a romantic relationship? I can seriously and most definitely say that there is no way in hell I could see that happenening. So then while the author may have handled it well and developed it well, he/she wasn't developing the actual characters anymore. These are people parading around with the name of Buffy and Dawn, they may be nice likeable people, but they aren't the characters anymore. As much as people may like a certain kind of fic, sometimes what the characters are doing is beyond what the characters are capable of. Then it becomes mary sue-ing or original characters maskarading as the actual ones.

-------------------------------

Buffy?

Let's change it, the Discovery channel has koala bears.

Xita makes an excellent point. I hate really bizarre pairings like B/D or god forbid, and I did hear a rumor of this, Joyce/Dawn. That is just wrong, in my opinion! As a matter of fact I have some problem with AU's that are too AUey. A lot of times fanfics with AU stories warp the characters so much that they end up being different people. I always feel what's the point of that since these are obviously no longer W/T or whomever? Now in good AUs, like Rane's Camp Flutie, the characters are still recognizable despite the massive changes to reality. That's fine. But often the author doesn't even try to keep the characters consistent and that really bothers me and makes me wonder why they aren't doing original characters.



Garner

Part of the problem/goal/challenge in any fanfic is to be able to write the characters so that fans of the show/movie/book will be able to read your interpretation of the characters and hear them in the same voice as they already know. The first time I wrote W/T and posted the effort on this board, I was almost sick with dread that someone would post back with a "This is not Willow and Tara!" message, or even just a "Your story sucks!" (I had no idea of the generous spirits of the Kittens at that time, who would probably say nothing if they could not say something nice).



Some AU can be less enjoyable to read, as you've come to expect W/T in the situation we first encountered them in: Sunnydale, vampires, the Slayer, magic, etc. Removing them from that changes the characters no matter how much you try. The trick is, you have to recreate very similar characters in whatever milieu plan to write in. Again, I was worried that my Trek-fic would not work because the characters of W/T (or the facsimilies I created) would a) not work in the Trek universe,b) not resonate with the W/T reading audience or c) both of the above.

_________________



"Honey, in case you didn't hear me the first six thousand times: no more teleportation spells."

In contrast to the people objecting to authors changing the characters too much, I'd like to point out that the ability of the characters to change and grow is one of the big advantages of fanfic over the authorized Buffy novels. You can go too far by making the characters unrecognizable, but almost all the authorized novels fail because they're not allowed to go far enough.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

On the topic of Dawn/Buffy, and other such bizarre/totally wrong "ships" (in my opinion), I have to agree that I need for the story to ring true to me, regardless of the sex/etc. Meaning, I have no problem with smut fics, or stories that focus heavily on the sexual aspect of a relationship, but it has to make sense, their characterizations have to reflect what I know of the characters from the show (ie Buffy/Dawn would never happen on the show, and thus isn't real/acceptable to me to read it in a story).



Not to say a writer can't deviate from the show (ie I do enjoy reading AU fics), but at the same time in order for me to enjoy a particular fic/story, I need to recognize the characters I am reading about. Because if this doesn't happen, as Xita points out it's "mary sue-ing", which tends to turn me off from reading that particular story.



As for the topic of the article, with the author tending to focus on slash fic/sex, I too wish the scope was broader. For me I enjoy PWP fic, while at the same time also need stories that are more character based in the sense of a plot arc. Really I think for me the "best of both worlds" is reading a fic (which might be rated NC-17) where the characterizations are "rich", includes sex scenes that are thud/drool worthy, but at the same time its palpable to me that they are are expressing their love/"completeness" with the love scenes.

Edited by: VampNo12  at: 12/11/02 7:48:57 pm

AU is a favorite genre of mine, I love it. There are 2 types that I can think of right now.



In certain AUs, the characters are essentially plucked from this reality and placed in another. They are essentially the same people placed in different situations. They can of course grow and change through the fic.. but at the start, I would say , essentially the same.



The other kind is where the background is so different that while still essentially the original characters, they behave differently. An example of this, which I always find exciting, is a Tara who grew up without the horrors of her family. She is going to behave differently but still her heart and soul will be Tara. This is of course a whole lot more difficult because if done wrong nothing remains of Tara other than blue eyes, blonde hair. That's not so fun. It's hard to tell the difference here, i could tell you what I would need in order for Tara to remain Tara, or Willow to remain Willow, but I think generally it is a feeling. A feeling that it is right.



This is why to get back to b/d, for that to seem realistic, well it wouldn't be a romance, ever. 2, the characters would have to have had a completely different childhood, filled with abuse and a lack of sexual boundaries or in a society where incest is the accepted behavior. Most of the time though these are told as romantic tales or complete plot what plot stories. Neither one of those works at all.

-------------------------------

Buffy?

Let's change it, the Discovery channel has koala bears.

Hmm, lots of things I want to pick up on here, though I am bound to forget them.



AU... As someone who spent a year writing an AU fic I am very aware of the concerns that Cap had about his Trek fic but the conclusion I came to in planning my own was that if the reader buys into who the character is at the the start (ie Tara is Tara for more reasons that having the name, blue eyes and blonde hair) then you can develop that character within the story in ways that would not have been consistent with canon. In that case you are putting Tara (or whoever) through a different set of circumstances and I think readers can enjoy that. It comes down to the question of characterisation. A writer, to pull off an AU, has to prove upfront that they have a grasp on the characters that the readers can relate to.



Here on Kitten writers are pretty good at that.



Getting back to the sex scenes thing that was being mentioned prior to B/D being raised. I am a person who can quite cheerfully write a love scene between two women but I rarely read them. Apart from redrafting the fic I hardly even read my own. People seem to like them when they get posted but I choose not to read them myself - even my own. Someone clever want to tell me what that says about me?? *S*



B/D... first I want to say no way, no how. It doesn't matter how well written that fic is to me technically it is based in a morally dangerous premise and on characterisation that is flawed. I am afraid that if you accept that the characters in that fic are going to "go for" that then, to me, you are simply looking at some people who happen to share the name and physical attributes of the characters not who they are. It is sort of like a porn film compared to say Great Expectations. It might look pretty to some people... but it never gets to who the characters are. Any exploration of the feelings of those characters must, for me, come back to the fact that under the surface they are not, infact, Buffy and Dawn at all.



This comes back to the point above about AU... If you do not convince the reader of who the characters are, and then develop them in a way that was consistent with who they were, then it is not a story it is porn in words (which is distinct from smut.) Buffy saying "Oh I have to go Slay vampires" is not really what makes her Buffy. One of the things that makes her Buffy is that she is not going to go and abuse her sister in that way.



There is no way that I would ever accept B/D... but to tell any story that could accomplish something like that degree of change in the characters from the start point we know would be something that took chapter after chapter after chapter before you even got near the sex. As Xita said... it would have to show why the characters came to be who they were. And that is not something that can be explained in half a paragraph. Development would not be desirable, it would be required and even then it would be horror story.



I suspect that instead this B/D story less about development and more about sex.



Wow... And I came here to comment on the love scenes and AU thing.



Oops.



Katharyn

-------------------------




If I want a little pussy, I got my own to play with.
Chance in Chance.




------------------------

Edited by: Katharyn at: 12/11/02 9:58:21 pm

What I find is that I like best those non-canon pairings that follow from the canon--in other words the AU progresses from the canon--and possibly improves upon it. But, most of the time, I am a hardcore W/T person. W/T always remains for me at center. When I appreciate a story that centers on a non-canon pairing, I think it is due more to the story's superior writing than the actual narrative. Now, before going on, I should admit that I kind of freak at the truly non-canon pairings, especially any pairing of Joyce, Dawn or Giles with a Scoobie.



I have not seen the B/D pairing story, and I want to imagine that the story does not progress along the lines of Chinatown and instead imagines a hypothetical reality in which Dawn and Buffy are not sisters. In which case, I wonder how Dawn could be Dawn. After all, so far as I can see, post ball of green glowy stuff, she has no real identity other than Buffy's sometimes pain in the butt kid sister. I could be wrong here, but for me Dawn begins and ends in a specific relationship to Buffy, which extends to a specific relationship to Joyce, Willow, Tara and Xander.



On other matters...one problem I've seen in post season five fan fics is that it's hard to make the characters ring true because during season six so often the main characters on BTVS (especially Buffy, Willow and Xander) were written inconsistently. For example, Xander, in season six, slingshots from one inexplicable emotion to the next. He became, I think, in season six little more than a plot device--in other words, depending on the needs of the plot at any particular moment Xander could be heroic or cowardly, stupid or intelligent, thoughtful or self-righteous, mean or kind. The core of his character, as developed in seasons one through three, and the unraveling of his character in season four was lost, I think, in season six. And similar problems happened with Buffy and Willow as well. Sure people respond in different ways to different circumstances, but people also have core personalities--and the season six Xander didn't seem to have one.



Thus post season five AU fan fics, I think, not only have to imagine a better (at the very least, more artful) narrative, but also rediscover the truth of the characters (which is not to deny the art of Camp Flutie, one of my favorite fan fics on the board).

Edited by: BytrSuite at: 12/12/02 2:04:10 pm

Perhaps my favorite non-canonical relationship is Buffy/Faith as you can see hints of that in Bad Girls.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: BytrSuite at: 12/12/02 2:24:33 pm

This is a Willow and Tara board. W/T ONLY. If you can't respect that, please don't post here.



There will be no mentioning of W/other or T/other, EVER.



Thank you.

________
"Oh, good, my dog found the chainsaw."

Edited by: BytrSuite at: 12/12/02 2:10:13 pm

Kathy, I think I love you.

I want you tonight. Are you in the mood? ~ Birmingham, Alabama.

wow, when xita and tp mentioned this was a great discussion thread i tried like hell to avoid it. my mind is usually all over the place and i can never type anything coherent enought without massive re-writes.



so much to touch upon yet i dont have enough time... firstly, thanks for the shout outs to Camp Flutie. CF really is a fic i'm really proud of and i'm glad people like it. Yes, it's certainly AU and silly and just meant to be a fun read but i'm trying to keep it as close to canon as possible since interestingly enough i am not much of an AU reader/writer most of the time. I actually try to stay away from AU fics because i feel a lot of mary sues occur within AU fics and i'm not into that. I've found myself starting to read a lot AU fics and just turning off... I come to read willow and tara and feel willow and tara are who they are because of the background ME has already sort of given them. i dont think tara would be tara if she didn't come from that homelife or willow either and i use ME's "hints" within the last couple of seasons in writing a sort of believable AU fic (i try at least). (scratch season 6 and seven) plus, i like working within the contraints of canon.



i read fanfic to see other people's styles and ideas but I dont like it when the AU characters look and talk like W/T but they aren't (and i've had the whole they should just write original fic conversation a lot). I dont mind different settings, time periods, whatever, I just want willow and tara that we know and love to be in the fic. There is so much to be played within the canon that can be written realistically (ie sidestep) and i know i've had the whole buffy's season six was a terrible marysued fanfic by their own creators conversation as well. At the same time there are tons of AU fics that keep the essence of Willow and Tara and i appreciate reading those.



i like *filling in the blanks* which is what to me is the essence of fanfic. it's not just about smut or different pairings like the article leads, it's the missing scenes you wish you could see. or me in this case... Fanfic to me as a writer is a workshop to writing well, well written fanfic as a reader is icing on the cake.



yes, i've written nc-17 material and i have to admit i'd been very hesitant about it (blushed along with mariacomet when she beta-ed the truck scene). i'd rather insinuate than be as descriptive as some writers are (and some are truly beautifully written, others aren't). I'm not saying i dont like sex scenes, hell i do!, and i have gotten much more comfortable writing it too (all, like, three of them ). i remember reading a fic labeled smut which eventually became so much more than smut, it happened to be an intricately woven fic with a lot of nc-17 and it was magnificent (cough *biblical name* cough) . I guess to me smut means a sex filled romp with absolutely no plot, to others it doesn't. smut and nc-17 are not interchangable to me, for some it is.



i know i'm not comfortable writing any other pairing besides w/t either (sexual or otherwise). i'm shocked and apalled at times to read certain unconventional sexual pairings that really make me wonder what the hell the writer was thinking (certainly D/B) i too have read pairings that i could never imagine just out of curiosity and then just want to



but the fact of the matter is that fanfic is so much more than that article states and now that i'm sure i've made absolutely no sense whatsoever i'm ducking out.

"We're forgetting about the troll. Let's pay attention to the troll." Tara, Triangle

Edited by: Warduke at: 12/12/02 8:08:56 pm

Rane, that was a great post. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the idea of smut vs nc-17 fic. But I think in essence that shows the understanding of the writer themselves in terms of characterisation and imaginative interpretation. Some writers can't write anything but Willow and Tara in their fic, and the sex scenes are constructive to the plot and the overall progression of the relationship. Other writers want to write lesbian smut, and use Willow and Tara as a means of doing that. Forgive me if I prefer the former to the latter. For me, the sexiest thing about reading nc-17 fic with Willow and Tara in it is that it's Willow and Tara doing it. That's the beauty of reading fics on Pens that portray them with truth and honesty. Not some thinly disguised lesbian porn.

I want you tonight. Are you in the mood? ~ Birmingham, Alabama.

I definitely agree with Rane and Ruth on the smut vs NC-17 outlook. I guess one of my problems with the article and much of the material on slash is that they treat all fanfic as smut/porn made up for impossible pairings and forget that a lot of the stories really do have a more romantic feel where the sex, though graphic, does fit into the story. I would like to see that difference highlighted and perhaps explained. I certainly don't mind reading the NC-17 style while I do try and stay away from the porn/smut.



I think that any story that captures the character's feel is worthwhile to an extent. Sometimes things are a bit too dark (which I am guilty of too!) or a bit too AUey, but defining that feel is hard. Sometimes a story that works for one person might not another just because the setting is too different. I will admit that I have a problem with background pairings like B/F or things like that that seem unlikely to me. Others may find that aspect more interesting and an area the show didn't explore. There is so much that the show doesn't have time to look at that filling in moments or addressing these areas should keep us hip deep in decent stories on the Pens.



Garner

hehe, the only smut i read is W/T. well, some smut. i'm not into too much S/M and porny porn at all but yeah it's W/T and they love each other. pen writers know how to write their girls and that's what i love about the pens.

"We're forgetting about the troll.
Let's pay attention to the troll." Tara, Triangle