The Politics Thread



Kittens, here's a thread to talk about politics.



It's crucial that we all be respectful of one another and differing opinions. We aren't all going to agree and if you're reading and posting in this thread, it's important that you respect your fellow Kittens and their right to disagree and remember that not everyone grew up in or lives in the same culture or political climate as you do. Passions run high on the issues we'll be discussing, but we should all be able to share our views here respectfully.



Guidelines:

• No name-calling whatsoever.
• Do not criticize others for holding a different opinion.
• Your post can be edited or removed at any time, if you cross the line.
• No flag waving or superior nationalism. There are people here from many different countries and none of these are perfect.
• In order to avoid a confrontational, adversarial, antagonistic environment or creating factions between us, please do not post to just to cheer another post.

---the mods

---

i know there is strength
in the differences between us
and i know there is comfort
where we overlap

Edited by: maudmac  at: 11/5/03 8:08 pm

All I can do is echo the words of Senator Byrd, one of the oldest sitting Congressmen today and share his speech:



"Today I weep for my country. No more is the image of America one of strong, yet benevolent peacekeeper. ... Around the globe, our friends mistrust us, our word is disputed, our intentions are questioned. We flaunt our superpower status with arrogance. After war has ended the United States will have to rebuild much more than the country of Iraq. We will have to rebuild America's image around the globe. May God continue to bless the United States of America in the troubled days ahead, and may we somehow recapture the vision which for the present eludes us.



The case this administration tries to make to justify its fixation with war is tainted by charges of falsified documents and circumstantial evidence. We cannot convince the world of the necessity of this war for one simple reason. This is a war of choice. A pall has fallen over the Senate chamber. We avoid our solemn duty to debate the one topic on the minds of all Americans, even while scores of thousands of our sons and daughters faithfully do their duty in Iraq."

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

I'm deeply saddened by the war. I live on a college campus and all of the people in the reserves have been called in to action. Many of these people are my friends. The reality hit me when I heard on the news that a local steel company had recieved an order from the US government for 600 steel coffins in preperation for biological warfare.

Pax! -Bev

Edited by: singgirl at: 3/20/03 10:42:08 am

One thing that I'm curious about is what is happening in Afganistan. I remember there being a lot of talk about how much resources the west would have to invest in order to stabalise/rebuild that country.



I admit I don't follow the news as much as I do but I'd like to know are we still able to provide these resources as well as engaging in this war, or have the Afghani people been forgotten about?



Toni, That quote pretty much sums up how I feel about the war as well.

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

Edited by: justin at: 3/20/03 10:42:35 am

Hey Justin! I just saw this morning that there was a simultaneous sortie in Afghanistan as well, ostensibly to rout some more of the Al Qaeda...that has yet to be determined and I personally think that it's more smoke and mirrors.



I'm happy my father is no longer eligible to go to war. He did his stint in the Gulf before retiring but he's now so rabid to go and die in Iraq that I am rather appalled. I tried reasoning with him and got nowhere. It's sad that I have to feel this way for him but since I don't believe in supporting a leader (whom I think is wrong) just for the sake patriotism (and I'm thanking every diety I can find that I never voted for the man) I don't feel too badly. Common sense has to prevail at some point. I hope the little light bulb comes on before things go horrifically awry.



T.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

After hearing all the arguments for why the US is attacking, all I can say is that anyone who thinks this will make us safer from terrorism is in for a big surprise.

"Sure it's simple, writing for kids. Just as simple as bringing them up." - Ursula K. LeGuin

Edited by: BBOvenGuy  at: 3/20/03 11:04:15 am

I hear ya, Bob. My Diana is flying off to an interview today and can I just say that I am worried as hell. I would rather that she not travel during this time but she has no choice After going through the Amarillo airport today, I'd have to say that the security presence is not reassuring enough for me. With all the mystery illnesses that have been cropping up within the past week, all I can say is, terrorism knows no borders. Attacking Iraq, physically and publically won't change much. It's all nothing but smoke and mirrors and saber rattling. Until we nab Bin Laden, we're just wasting time and countless lives.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

The trans-Afghan pipeline that the Taliban blocked is being build by Unocol, a U.S. oil company, so the part of construction that the U.S. was really interested in is going ahead as planned. As for the rest, Karzai did not return from his visit with Bush a couple of weeks ago with much, if anything, that was concrete in the way of help for rebuilding Afghanistan.



Given the immediate focus on building a pipeline, the presence of plans for an invasion of Afghanistan before 9/11, and all the connections of the Bush adminstration to oil interests, does anyone really think that this war is all about terrorism? Maybe the governments do have secret information we haven't seen, but that wasn't enough to convince Robin Cook, the British foreign secretary, who resigned on Tuesday over the war with Iraq. There are plenty of ruthless dictators out there who are supported by the U.S., so I find it difficult to believe that Saddam's domestic policy is a primary reason for the war either.



Afghanistan continues to be a problem. A thousand U.S. troops were sent into southern Afghanistan in operation "Valiant Strike" to search for al-Queda suspects today, and one administrational official estimated that the military campaign there will continue for another six years. Here's a good article on both the fighting and difficulties of rebuilding Afghanistan.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 3/20/03 11:09:26 am

That's a very interesting article, thanks DMW.



Given the continuing problems in Afghanistan it seems to be much too early to be attacking another country. Especially since we'll probably have the same problems in Iraq.



Of course then there's the question of who's next?



I've heard reports that North Korea is arming itself because they're convinced that it's going to be them. The fact that they have nukes makes that even more worrying.

I understand, you should be with the person you l-love


I am

I've been worried about North Korea, too, and not just because of the nuclear threat. I've heard that North Korea already has enough conventional artillery in place to flatten everything between the DMZ and Seoul, and they're jumpy enough to use it. The US would still win a war there, but it would be pretty horrendous.

"Sure it's simple, writing for kids. Just as simple as bringing them up." - Ursula K. LeGuin

If the Bush really wanted to try to stop terrorism, the first thing to do is the try and end the Palestine/Isreali conflict. THIS is the issue at the forefront of thought in the MIddle East. THIS is the issue that angers so many. THIS is the issue that needs to be resolved...and rightly so.



Obviously Saddam is not the greatest of all leaders (that's putting it midly) but I'm extremly concerned about my country right now. In a year and a half we have managed to squandered world-wide public support for a war for what? Oil? Revenge? Security? It's certainly not for democracy. I don't know.



Now I don't try to pretend that I'm an expert on international

affairs, but the president has failed to sell this war to me and the rest of the world.



I am angered, saddened, and scared for the US. We have made so many mistakes and I fear this is the next one. only time will tell.



Dear Mr. President: Words do matter!!

Yeah, North Korea is the scary threat, and not one the West can easily deal with directly as we discovered when China intervened to save the North in the Korean War. China appears to want a buffer state strongly enough to put up with Kim Jong-il, but he seems to doubt that enough to want nuclear weapons to ensure his fate isn't the same as that of Milosevic or the Taliban.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

I have so many issues with this war, I hardly know where to start. And thinking about it enough to compose a post is about to make me all ranty to the point of being incoherent. So I'll just throw some random thoughts out there. All just my opinion, of course.



Iraq wasn't a threat to the US...until now.



I don't believe for one second that the true motivation for the US going to war in Iraq is to free the Iraqi people from Saddam Hussein. As it was twelve years ago, this is about oil. If it accomplishes a "regime change," well, that would be just a fringe benefit.



The US backed Saddam Hussein once upon a time, when it was convenient. The US backed the Taliban once upon a time, too, when that was convenient. I seriously doubt this action won't come back to bite us some time down the road.



What's the point of having a UN at all if its members just fly off and do whatever they please?



I saw on the news this morning, some footage of Sudanese refugees who had been in Iraq getting off a bus at the border in Jordan. Now they're refugees twice over. How far will they have to go to find a place that's safe?



I've been reading this blog, Where is Raed? He's in Baghdad and it's interesting to see his version of events differs from what I'm hearing on the news here in the US.



So...yeah, I'm opposed to this war. I'm bewildered and outraged and I feel mostly powerless to do anything except keep on feeling bewildered and outraged.



That's about the most coherent thing I can say now. Edwin Starr said it better, anyway: "...there's got to be a better way."

---

i know there is strength
in the differences between us
and i know there is comfort
where we overlap

I've thought from the moment GWB made his "Axis of Evil" pronouncement that this whole Iraq business was an attempt to take care of his father's unfinished business. When I heard that Iran, Iraq and North Korea were the "Axis of Evil," I thought, "Well, why don't you just throw in Vietnam and Cuba, and then we can call it what it really is - the Axis of Payback."



Back to North Korea for a moment - the one spot of hope I see there is that China is in as bad a position as we are. If North Korea is allowed to have nuclear weapons, how long do you think it will be before South Korea, Japan and/or Taiwan have nuclear weapons as well? Getting North Korea to back down is in China's best interests, too, and I hope that fact will enable everyone to resolve the situation peacefully.

"Sure it's simple, writing for kids. Just as simple as bringing them up." - Ursula K. LeGuin

There is one thing that I find very confusing in all of this. Who made us Judge and Jury for the world? Why is it that we can be trusted to have nuclear weapons whilst the rest of the world is not? What makes us so qualified to be one of the few countries sane enough to keep weapons of mass destruction?



I agree with Bob's assessment of "The Axis of Payback". As I sit here with laptop in hand at a truck stop waiting to get dieself fuel for my vehicle because other filling stations have hiked the price up to $2.00 per gallon for just diesel, I have to wonder who's getting paid. The oil industry is making a killing (sorry no pun intended *wince*) on this war but they're probably the only ones.



As I said before, this whole deal smacks of a smokescreen to me. Bush has kept mum on his involvement with the likes of Enron (that whole "requiring the President to testify undermines the authority of the Executive Office" is about as dodgy as it gets), what his pitiful economic reforms are for this country (God help us if he gets to mess up someone else's economy) and a whole gamut of domestic problems that he can't even handle much less deal with international fiascoes such as Iraq.



Something is quite amiss here and it's not just dealing with a petty dictator like Saddam Hussein. If the US really wanted him that bad, they'd have put the fear of God in him like they did Khaddafi (sp??). You don't hear a peep out of Libya these days. Hmm...wonder why?



Ugh, I've gone ranty...I'd better stop before my blood pressure gets to me.

Love is tricky. It is never mundane or daily. You can never get used to it. You have to walk with it, then let it walk with you. You can never balk. It moves you like the tide. It takes you out to sea then lays you on the beach again. Today's struggling pain is the foundation for a certain stride through the heavens. You can run from it but you can never say no. It includes everyone."--Amy Tan "The Hundred Secret Secret Senses"

Originally posted by Avern1



I maybe alone in this but its my opinion. I sad that Hussain is so stupid - they get him many chances to stop strike. And now he harvest storm. He hide behind human shields and not see that he hasnt got chance ? When he capitulate it will be better.



Tara : ,Horsies !,

Sorry if this inappropriate here - but politically speaking for me, as a Canadian, I've always disliked our Prime Minister and felt that he has bent over once to many times for big business - that is until recently - I am so relived and happy regarding his decision to not support this war and to instead take the stand of how people in this country feel. For once I respected him.



This war has so many implications for the world - it frightens and scares me - having seen how some neo-conservatives view the UN - it scares me that this is playing into their hand, and that in future the President of the US will not think about global implications. This whole process has weakened the global community at a time when that community is terribly important.



I also fear that this war plays into terrorists hands. Already in Jordan (usually quite middle ground) and other countries in the Middle East are seeing this as an attack on them and their way of life. I fear that Pandora's box is now open and the ramifications worldwide for this act of aggression by Bush will affect everyone.



... as for North Korea - my post is already too long, and I can't even think about how scared I am about the lack of discussion in the media about this.

Edited by: dekalog at: 3/20/03 2:39:04 pm

I'm against the war..That's just my opinion, which I'm entitled too just as someone is entitled to support it..I think what angers me more than anything though are the journalists on TV who are so arrogant as to sit there and mock or degrade anyone who opposes it, specifically Hollywood celebrities..I mean Danny Glover or Susan Sarandon have just as much right to protest against the war as anyone else, and the fact that they are actors don't make them any less intelligent or knowledgable of the facts than someone who is paid to sit there and read the news..

That's right.. We've just set the precedent where we have declared war on a country as a pre-emptive strike..What's to stop another country from doing the same thing and making the same argument, such as India/ Pakistan or so on? And those countries have nuclear weapons...

maudmac, thanks for this thread.

I'm against this war, but no one botherhed to poll me. I'm worried about the ramifications, as many of you obviously are as well.

I really don't understand why George Dubya is doing this, unless it's to make up for the mistakes his daddy made during his one term.

It all seems to me like a pissing contest between GW and Saddam and to hell with the rest of the world and the possible consequences.

I watched the movie GODSPELL last night for two reasons. The first because I was saddened to hear of the death of Lynne Thigpen, from the CBS show, "The District," and I wanted to pay my own little tribute to Ms. Thigpen, who left this world way too soon. She was only 54. She was so wonderful in this timeless film.

The second reason I watched the movie was because I just couldn't put up with all the media hype of "We have such and such time left before we start bombing." What crap.

Now who knows how much more "reality tv" we'll get during Gulf War II, and at what cost?

I'm trying to avoid the news. Sigh.

Janice

Edited by: emma peel at: 3/20/03 5:27:11 pm

I would like to apologize to the world.



I voted for George W. Bush.



But I didn't know it was gonna turn out like this! Honest!!



My mom is a die-hard Republican. She watches Bill O'Reilly faithfully every day, and believes everything he says, and is convinced that Iraq has nukes and are going to attack us any day now, and practically drools all over herself when Bush appears on television to make a speech - in short, she's Dubya's bitch. And it saddens me. We tried having a conversation about war once, but our opinions couldn't be farther apart, and our family really isn't the "confrontational" type, so the issue was dropped.



My dad was a soldier in Vietnam. He saw his best friend get blown away right in front of his eyes. I can't tell how he feels about the war on Iraq - he won't talk about it.



I'm more afraid of being attacked by terrorists now than I was the day after 9/11. And that's saying something.

Live each day as if it were your last; and one day, you'll be right.
| Pipsqueak's Music Videos |

"Who's going to get caught in the middle? How can that be justified?"



Unfortunately - in the short term innocent civilians in Iraq, (the same ones that Bush in his sound bites he says he's trying to protect) in the long run all of us. As to justification it can't be justified in my opinion.



This action does open the door for others to do exactly the same thing. It also opens the door to us vs. them, and for an escalation of hate and violence. I firmly believe that violence begets violence. We we all be paying for this in the end - in more ways than we can imagine.



As for the media - I have had to turn it off. The glorification of all of this revolts me.

I am also firmly against the war on Iraq. I've been to several protests lately and I plan to keep protesting to the end. I know that it doesn't make a difference in the eyes of the president. He couldn't care less what the people think. It is a very sad time for America, the UN, and the entire world.

I feel so disillusioned and sad. I can barely function because everything else seems to irrelevant when people are dying and world diplomacy has fallen apart.



I am also angry because some people act like you are anti-american if you are protesting the war and make a big deal that they support our soldiers. I want to make it clear here that I do support our troops. I just don't want them to die or to kill innocent people.



I am now very scared of terroist attacks. But I am absolutely terrified of George W. Bush and what he is going to do to the world.

Hello Kittens-



This tears at me right now. Like Pipsqueak my father was in Vietnam. He was there off and on over seven years. The last deployment was as Vietnamization took hold. Last night, as the war started, a patient I was working with looked at my ID badge and asked me if I knew Tony. When I told him it was my dad he told me where and when he served. Very eerie, bordering on creepy. His bitter words about the war just starting echo my father's last words to me weeks ago about trusting any goverment. The guy's blood pressure was up all night, but he couldn't turn off the TV. His kid's out there.



My dad isn't answering his phone and he's on the other coast.



I'm worried about the hundreds of veterans who are going to come out of this, their families, and what the people in Washington are laying down as a foundation for the future. Other Republics that turned into Empires did so out of the best intentions on the surface as well.



I'm worried about the people on the ground caught between someone the West helped prop up in power and the soldiers sent in to insure the next person stays under control. The first casualties include a Jordanian. I rather doubt that's the target the smart bombs were sent after. The Chinese embassy wasn't a Serbian stronghold during the Kosovo crisis either. Smart bombs are only as smart as the intelligence they're targeted with.



I'm worried that this effort will make the war on terrorism even more urgent. In the short run I worry about Kieli's Diana and everyone else traveling now. In the long run I worry that anyone who is subversive in their lifestyle or follows the wrong creed may need 'papers' to travel.



"Why do you want to go to Washington D.C.? Let me see your National Freedom Card. Catholic? Say, didn't your Pope come out against the war and say things like forgive your enemies, citizen? Open your bags, fill out this form and we'll see if we can let you on the bus today."



Where does it stop?



I don't feel safer right now. Every innocent killed will be another 'martyr' to be avenged, as if the evil people we're supposed to fighting this war to stop needed any reason to hate. Bin Lauden hates Saddam, and his organization will find new converts after this. Want to explain how that's going to make us safer?



I'm stopping now and calling my dad again. Take care of yourselves, tell the people nearest you that you love them.



Thank you for this place,



Jixer

Edited by: xita  at: 3/20/03 6:44:46 pm

First, thanks to Kieli for the eloquent speech by Senator Byrd that she quoted earlier, I'm glad there are still people like that in the Senate.



I'm Canadian. I'm anti-war in general, and anti this war in particular. I am willing to listen to opposing views however, and if the UN had passed a second resolution authorizing war I would have reluctantly supported Canada's involvement. (Which would have been minimal anyway, as we have very little left to send that isn't already in use.) There is no resolution however, and no broad-based international support because there is simply no conclusive argument for doing this now, and certainly none for doing it unilaterally. Others have postulated that President Bush is doing this because of oil, or because of his father. I'm afraid his reasoning may be even more troubling than that. He is a zealot, who truly believes that it is the place of the U.S.A. in this world to take on these tasks, unasked, simply because he imagines it is what's best for his country, and therefore for the world. He is not a stateman, certainly not any kind of diplomat. He is a CEO. He should never have been President. Let's hope that this decision is not the enormous mistake that many of us fear it will be, for we are going to have to live in the world it creates.



Finally, my thoughts are with the soldiers who have been ordered to do this, and with their families. They are serving their countries and I know they will attempt to end this as quickly and humanely as possible. Let them come home safely, and sadder and wiser for what they have seen and done.

"And each time I feel like this inside, there's one thing I wanna know:

What's so funny about peace, love and understanding? -Elvis Costello

Is anyone else having these flashbacks:

"Our enemy is the East-Asians...Our Enemy is the West-Asians..." I believe that is from George Orwell's 1984. As I have been watching the news the past few days really the past few years I cant help but get 1984 flashbacks. I wonder if we will have elections again...



I am so torn up by all of this. I love my country but I feel as though this is a mistake at this time. I am afraid of the precedent that was started last night. The United States of America was the aggressor! We have invaded another country with out provocation because we think they may have something. Ironically weapons we helped them amass...



Hussein is evil. I do believe the world would be better without him but I think we are going about it the wrong way. I am afraid that this will cost us way more lives and money in the long run. I believe we should have finished rebuilding Afighanistan and rooting out Al'Qaeda in the world.



I do think the USA gets damned if we do and damned if we dont a lot of the time. But in this instance I really do believe we are making a mistake. I hope I am wrong but sad to say I dont think so.



The thing is we can invade Iraq and all the countries we want. We can build all the bombs and spend billions on weapons and all it takes is some idiot with a bomb strapped to himself, or a box cutter and a plane. Until we begin to deal with the causes of terrioism we will never be safe. I feel as though the whole Iraq thing is a game of smoke and mirrors. I do not know if it is about oil or revenge, but I do know that it is a dangerous path we have been put on.



The sad thing is that I listened to Tony Blair last night and I actually understood his points. I actually felt like he was trying to explain and had some reason behind his arguments. I still disagree with his descision but I felt as though he had some good points. Unfortunatly I have never gotten that feeling when I listened to my own President.



I come from a military family. Every immediate member of my family barring my grandmother served. My mother, father, grandfather, and so on...



So I get really pissed when I hear people saying that if you disagree with the President you are unpatriotic and are not supporting our troops. I completely support our troops. I understand they have a job to do and are doing it to the upmost of their ability. But I still think the President is making a mistake! This is still America, right? We are still allowed to have different opinions, I think. If you truly love someone you will tell them if you think they are making a mistake. Why should the same not be for your country?



I think we should start a lets support the Dixie Chicks thread....



I am sorry this was a long messy rant. Fitting for the subject. Because it is not black and white to me. Since it has begun I will do all that I can do now and that is pray for the best. I pray not only for our country, the innocent people in Iraq, our soldiers, but also for the world. I pray that this thing called democracy is not some noble but doomed experiment.



"The fault dear Brutus lies not within the stars but within ourselves..."



Toni

"Take this cup away, for I dont want to drink its poison..." JC Superstar

Edited by: xita  at: 3/20/03 6:50:52 pm

Please everyone take note of the guideliness in the first post, particularly this:



No name-calling whatsoever.



That means none, not SOB, not bastard

-----------------------------------

Only 50 cents

Edited by: xita  at: 3/20/03 6:55:18 pm

Hi all, I am new here, so perhaps I am jumping in a bit, but just thought I'd share my perspective since I just got back from a massive antiwar protest in Toronto.



I guess then it is pretty obvious what my stance is. I have family friends and relatives of friends in the region and it disheartens me that not only have they been suffering and dying because of the sanctions, but now they must relive the horror of bombing.



Every accusation Bush throws at Sadaam, applies to himself. Weapons of mass destruction? The United States has nuclear weapons. In fact, any weapons Iraq supposedly has probably came from the United States after they crushed an Iraqi led revolution and imposed Sadaam to fight Iran and for oil.



On a personal level, I fear for my family in the United States, who are Americans through and through, but because of some ignorant people are judged in a racist manner. I have not escaped that here in Canada.



This war is horrible because if the U.S. wanted to actually Sadaam out it had many opportunities to do so, but bombing does not hurt those who are heads of state and have palaces to run to. It is ordinary people, like you or me, who suffer. It is middle America who goes to fight the president's war. Why does only ONE Congressman have an enlisted child if they are so pro-war? Why is it other people's children who are shipped off to die?