T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

[Twisted Minstrel]

What's sad here is that some are focused on the numbers - how old they were when they did the video, how old are they now?



Doesn't matter. Brooke Shields was 12 years old when she played a prostitute in a movie. Kirsten Dunst was 11 when she did Interview with a Vampire. Kate Winslet and Melanie Lynskey were in their teens when they made Heavenly Creatures. There have been teen pop stars marketed as sex symbols for decades. The image used to be romance - but we've cut to the chase. Sex, so the cliche goes, sells.



The lure of the forbidden stays with us. Lolita, is a prime example. Pretty Baby, the film with Brooke Shields, is another. These children are beguiling, beautiful - and not to be touched. The forbidden is compelling - ask Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, R. Kelly, Pete Townsend - ask any of these old men how sweet it is.



The image is what we are left with - the image of two girls, coquettish, flirting, in their school girl uniforms (long the favorite of male-geared porn), undergoing a phony crisis while they play out male-directed, male-dominated and male-sponsored fantasies - all for your entertainment. We all see it differently. That's not the point.



Richard Wagner was a legendary anti-semite and snob. People still listen to his music. Vivaldi was a teacher at all-girl's school, and allegedly gave 'extracurricular' lessons. We still listen to his music. We think of these men as geniuses. So many great artists were considered 'deviant' in some way. The difference between them and TATU?



They didn't manufacture, research, plot carefully, intricately map out and otherwise make a scheme of their art. It's the INTENT that we are disgusted with. It's the INTENT that makes us sick to choking, it's the INTENT we can't get past. The INTENT is WRONG. The INTENT is damaging, distorting and otherwise perpetuating further mis-identification of porn, pedophilia and every other sexual perversion with homosexuality.



But that's entertainment, folks. In the modern Gomorrah, that is truly entertainment. It'll make a nice segment for VH1 Behind the Music someday. Or an E! Expose. Maybe People magazine will shed some light and invaluble insight. Maybe the girls will dis-band and write separate autobios telling their side of the story. How it was all just a bunch of crap. They'll be forgotten, soon enough. There's tons more just like them, lining up. I'm sure they'll have a snappy single too.



I'm sure it'll sound like all the other snappy singles out there. It's what snappy singles are for.

[tommo]

Great post, Minstrel. I think that's the thing I object to, that whole notion of "intent". It worries me that this is being allowed to pass us by without anybody asking what's wrong with it, all because hey, the tune is catchy and that's alright isn't it?

It's in your eyes, I can tell what you're thinking; my heart is sinking too...It's no surprise, I've been watching you lately; I want to make it with you...

[tkheaven]

Funny how last night while watching MTV's Clone High (Daria is much better) they gave a video blurb with the two girls kissing. I went, "oh?" and looked quickly to see it was t.A.T.u. I figured I'd hunt via Google and find out what that was about. The first thing I do when I get to work, though, is visit the kitten board (it's addictive) and alas, I already see that a thread has been created. I'd never thought this is was the real deal behind the duo. That's just crazy. I haven't heard their music, although I intend to just to know what they sound like. I believe no matter what issues are behind it, if the music is good I'll listen, doesn't mean I'll go off purchasing the merchandise. I'd rather DL then put money towards this jerk.

Then I went ahead and did my Google search to find out some more info. I found a few sites that included pics of the two girls. I found myself scrunching my face and feeling a bit queezy as a few were a little more provocative then I would have imagined (they're in their undies and tank tops and in a few poses where they're 'very close') not to say that these types of pics turn me off, it's the images of very young girls in these pics that was disturbing/degrading. *shiver* it was VERY disturbing. A few other sites included them with some other 'naughty' imagry with young girls. Needless to say I had to close out that window rather quickly.

With that said I agree that while their music might be enjoyable, the intentions for publicity and sales are not. Simply unacceptable.



tommo, I believe you asked what t.A.T.u. stood for, I found the following:

TATU stands for… Ta = This Girl, and [liking/loving] Tu = That girl (in Russian)

whether that's correct, I can't say...

Tk's new and improved "GrrArgg"...

---

"I've become really protective of her. I want to make sure if Tara comes back, it's for good reason." -Amber Benson
Tara ate her, devoured her from beneath. -The Edge of Silence giving new meaning to this season's catch phrase.
"Don't get me wrong. I kinda like being the quirky nympho chick." - Michelle in 'American Pie 3'

[cassiopeia191]

The first times I listened to this song I didn't pay attention to it, I was more like "Well, it's not bad, I won't turn it off."...then I spent a night in a hotel because my flight got cancelled and watched some MTV...the song was on and this sounds weird, but I liked that blue-white thing in the video (sorry, not really good with the words tonight) so I stayed tuned...I listened to the lyrics and was surprised because it sounded like one girl singing about being in love with another girl. While I thought that, they started kissing which I saw coming because I thought there was some nice chemistry in it. (hah, right now it's playing on the radio) I went on the internet and researched and was impressed to see that they're really lesbians. Then, I wasn't sure whether or not this is just some trick...I'm still sceptical. Honestly, I don't care that much because it's their business. However, I don't like what their manager does...I want that to be clear.



Anyway, I like this song because a) one of the singers has this cute Russian accent and through my Mom, I learned to take some interest in Russian culture and literature. Yeah, sounds cheesy but it's true...that's my favorite part about the song, when she rolls those rrrrrs.



And b) I was intrigued because I thought it was cool to have a song about coming out issues on the radio.



In my opinion, that's still cool because it's quite unexpected and could have been a big step if it hadn't been some marketing strategy.

I don't like everything about the video...I'm opposed to some of the ways those girls are presented in but I also don't think that the video is only about 'sex', at least that's not what I thought when I first watched it. I'm idealistic that way. Everything I heard makes me feel uneasy and I certainly won't go and get their CD tomorrow...I'll wait and see what else is to come and how they'll present themselves in the future. If they'll be like, 'Look at us, we're young, gay and horny', I don't see any reason to bother with them because then I could just go and start listening to Britney or Christina Aguilera. Still, it makes me sad to see two young girls exploited and objectified by their manager for CD sales, no matter if they're okay with it or not.



this is my opinion...unfortunately, I can't offer a solution but I also suggest to wait until their next song comes out.

[Mrs Vertigo]

A thought just crossed my mind. A couple of weeks ago I read a newspaper review of the MTV music awards, which TATU attended. The article mentioned that one of the girls does not speak English and the other translates for her.



So she doesn't speak the language she sings in. That makes it impossible to believe she wrote "All the Things She Said", or even co-wrote it. Therefore, the song is hers, not genuine.



I'll not start my usual "pop culture's made by drones, for drones" speech. I'd just ask all of you TATU fans out there to take a moment and think about this. See, the way I look at it is this: it's wonderful when gay artists become famous because of the quality of their work. It helps to normalize homosexuality, promote tolorance and provide gay/questioning youth with rolemodels. It's absolutly terrible when artists have their work dictated to them and are bound by contract to present a sexual image that is not genuine. It promots the idea that sex is a product, music is nothing but a another marketing medium, and that it's ok to sell sex via music.

On Buffy, Season 7: ”Bored now…”

[Jimmi Magnus]

Mrs Vertigo, the song was originally made and recorded in Russian. No clue who wrote it, though.



The video for "All the things she said", that plays on MTV and the likes, is a chopped up version of the video for the Russian version.



The english vid is not as good as the Russian, in terms of the coming out story. In the Russian version the kiss is the conclusion of a part of the song, where one of the girls speaks reasurringly to the other. And then end up kissing her. In the English version there is no build-up for the kiss, and the kiss is shown far more as well.



I initially liked the idea of a video showing two young girls acceptiong who they are. But this tread, and recent news articles, sortof changed my view on this group.

-I feel as if a kitten sat on my face all night

[Patches]

I haven't watched music video since the (early) '80's - so I have a question for those who have; have any performers released videos with younger hetero teens kissing and was there any reaction to it? Just curious.



Nevertheless, this kind of orchestrated sensationalism also has me feeling uneasy. Titillation sells, no doubt. Is it a sign of our increased visibility that "main stream" now deems us "worthy" of open exploitation; that in fact, instead of sexuality being the "dirty little secret" to be hidden for risk of harming a career, it is something which causes the notoriety necessary for success? Is TATU the natural result of the (agonizingly) slow normalization of our sexuality, as compared with twenty or thirty years ago? Though we set age "appropriate" social "limits" on sexuality, biology works on an entirely different schedule; is two "underage" girls kissing any different than an "underage" boy and girl kissing - like on TV series where they depict a teen's first crush, and/or first kiss.



I keep thinking of Minstrel's post, and the emphasis on "intent." Perhaps this is what bothers me most, the intent - titillation for the sake of the male gaze, commercialism and exploitation are now coming home to us through mainstream pop culture. Are we further ahead for the publicity or damaged by the sensationalism and orchestration. If it is the later, at least we can take solace in the fact that these "marketing ploys" rarely live past the moment or have any meaning. Maybe it's that, at least in the media, we've by-passed the representations of the "tender moments" of the first crush and the first kiss and gone right into social exploitation. Dunno, but it has me thinking.

You know I've heard about people like me. But I never made the connection. They walk one road to set them free, And find they've gone the wrong direction. But there's no need for turning back 'cause all roads lead to where I stand. And I believe I'll walk them all No matter what I may have planned

[darkmagicwillow]

The song was all over Italy when I visited, and I saw the video a few months ago as I was waiting for a train in Bologna. I thought they were very sweet together, but I didn't see anything particularly sexual about the video and had no idea of their ages. I was actually looking forward to seeing what else they'd done if their music made it to America. But as I read this thread, I found the title very appropriate, as they give me an uneasy feeling now, and their manager definitely gives me a queasy feeling.



I have to agree that intent is the problem here. The law needs precise rules on these matters, but whether or not they were of age doesn't change the creepiness of their manager's marketing scheme. In any case, age of consent varies from state to state even within the U.S. and has varied considerably over time. In some places, it even involves an age difference for some range of ages around 18 which has always made more sense to me than being a child one day and an adult the next.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 2/4/03 3:02:16 pm

[missspangles]

I find it disturbing that this whole thing was generated, controlled and formulated by a middle-aged man who thought that young 'lesbians' (both girls admit that they ultimately see themselves married to men!) would appeal to a wide audience (not just young lesbian girls). To me, this is very sad and cynical, especially when young gay teenagers desperately need to see real and honest depictions of themselves in the media. I don't blame those who find their music catchy, it might well be great music, nor do i blame the girls themselves. Just the man who thought that underaged lesbianism would sell!

[Big Dummy]

Wow, look what I stumbled in on. Interesting, cause I was thinking about TATU weeks ago and wondering what the frill heck was going on with them. I heard the song on the radio, and I just got really excited that there was a pop song out there that dealt with 2 women loving each other. It didn't hurt that it was catchy.



After downloading the vid, I decided to do some research and unearthed similar info to the rest of you in regards to the role their manager plays in their image development, and essentially left with the impression that these girls weren't lesbians at all, simply marketed that way to help them sell. That bothered me more than the video ever did.



I guess my main objection was playing the hot girl-on-girl action card. That can just never be beneficial to lesbians and gay culture in general, when you take something as serious and life-affecting as sexuality and turn it into a ratings/marketing ploy. As far as the vid, I've seen similar depictions of barely legal girls in Aerosmith vids and other bands, and plenty of scantily clad teens in current vids (like Jimmy Eats World's vid, where everyone's in their skivvies at some house party). So, while I do a at TATU's vid, I don't hold it up to a standard above what pop culture is intent on handing us these days. I do object to it being lesbian in content and nature, but these girls not really being lesbians.

[missspangles]

Big Dummy, I totally agree. Those of us that have had to deal with all the problems society throws at us for being gay generally don't appreciate having our sexuality co-opted and used as a marketing tool by middle-aged heterosexual men who think it's a great way to get media exposure and sell a few more records..

[SJ]

Thanks KISMIC.

I don't know what T.A.T.U. websites you looked at but the one I have been to http://www.tatu.us is in no way sleazy.

[Willow Rocks]

For anyone that is interested their is an interview with them in this weeks Heat magazine, its quite funny (well it made me laugh anyway) 4 a number of reasons including that only one of them speaks, and they do seem kinda genuine but then who knows if they have been told what 2 say, which by the sounds of it they have been.

[justastraightdog]

tv.zap2it.com/news/tvnews...html?30007



'Lesbian' Duo Causes 'Top of the Pops' Stir

Tue, Feb 4, 2003 03:55 PM PDT



LOS ANGELES (Zap2it.com) - When they were getting started, Jack and Meg White of The White Stripes had some fun with their image by telling some reporters they were brother and sister and others that they were husband and wife. The are-they-or-aren't-they vibe gave them a little boost that only generated more interest and buzz.



The Russian duo Tatu is employing a similiar ploy with Julia Volkova, 17, and Lena Katina, 18, proclaiming that they are lovers and sharing a kiss while wearing school girl uniforms in their video for their hit single "All the Things She Said." The coy couple was discovered three years ago by a child psychologist/advertising executive who packaged them as an underage sex project aimed at adult men who like that sort of thing.



However, those who follow the music industry are pretty sure that their image is nothing more than a bunch of spin, and the girls aren't even gay and definitely not lovers.



No matter where the truth really lies, critics are not amused, and even though it is No. 1 in England (having knocked "Fame Academy" winner David Sneddon out of the spot) Britain's BBC will not air the video for "All the Things She Said" Friday (Feb. 7) on its popular countdown show "Top of the Pops."



The channel says that they will replace the video showing the girls kissing with "better" exclusive footage of a live performance and may show the video at some point in the future. However, since the show airs at 7:30 p.m., 90 minutes before certain decency restrictions are lifted, they are refraining from doing so currently.



Meanwhile, BBC personalities Judy Finnigan and Richard Madeley are actively protesting Tatu, calling the teens "sick" and decrying their brand of "pedophilic pop."

_____



Only one little comment: "Banned by the BBC" is one of the best promotions a pop song can hope for over here in Europe. It's like the seal of approval for pushing the envelope, for being provocative and ground-breaking. If the BBC doesn't like or even actively protesting it, it has to be cool - that's the message.

_______________________________
Though here at journey's end I lie in darkness buried deep, beyond all towers strong and high, beyond all mountains steep,
above all shadows rides the Sun and Stars for ever dwell: I will not say the Day is done, nor bid the Stars farewell.

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

---

Meanwhile, BBC personalities Judy Finnigan and Richard Madeley are actively protesting Tatu, calling the teens "sick" and decrying their brand of "pedophilic pop."

---

Did they actually say that? How lovely. What exactly is it about those two that is sick? Oh don't tell me, I think I can guess. I'd have thought their manager, you know the adult supposed child psychologist, might be a fitting subject for their description.

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

[AlteaThree]

My two (Canadain) cents on this: As long as I can remember there have been teenage guy/girl couples on TV, in movies, and, of course, in music videos. There is kissing, light fondling, etc. Even birth control issues are brought up. So, it is not the kissing and fondling that is the issue, and no one can say it is. Okay, so what's next? Well, there's the whole girl/girl coupling. That in itself is nothing new, nothing scandelous: for a long time it has been part of popular (not pop) culture that girls "experement" and some take it farther. But the "farther" part was never really elaborated on in the popular culture. But, for a long time girl/girl couplings have been the thing of porn. Now, girls know about it. Boys know about it. Moms and dads know about it. Dads may in fact watch it. Moms may in fact watch it. Guys probably download it. Girls may look at it. seperatly. For it to be in the popular mass culture, and for it to be common rather than a "dirty little secret" is new. A lot of people battling with thier own demons and "dark thoughts" will have a hard time with this "new" thing. This is just general though, and while it applies outwardly to tatu, there's a lot more to it.



Gah, I've gotten off my point, which is this: From what I have heard and read, Tatu isnt out there for themselves, they are there to make old creepy men rich. That's the thing that's so disturbing. And it also is what actually is peudophile-like. The vid itself is really quite tame. Of course there will be a little bit of a hoopla-tatu is indroducing something rather new to the popular culture of the Western world: making it commonplace, family-allowable. But there is still the nasty connection: to many, "lesbian" mean lesbian porn, means old men peeping through windows at the next door neighbor's duaghter's slumber party. But, like the fact that all Siamese are cats, and all Fox Terriers are dogs, very few cats are Siamese and very few dogs are Fox Terriers. What I mean is,some girl/girl encounters are fake, or are veiwed by dirty old men, but very few...

Okay, so maybe I'm too tired to make sense...

"Hey, did you go to Hollywood Upstairs Medical college too?"

[Mrs Vertigo]

No, you definitly made sense, and an interesting read.



Edited to add: Here in Israel, "all the things she said" is treaded like the current gay anthem. Tatu get a lot of publicity in mainstream teenage magazines, and usually appear hugging (explicitly) in pictures. That is rather liberal for Israeli mainstream journalism. And apposed to England, Israeli media in general embraces them openly.

On Buffy, Season 7: ”Bored now…”

Edited by: Mrs Vertigo at: 2/6/03 6:19:19 am

[kajo 2000]

DrG: I caught a few minutes of Richard and Judy's show yesterday and they said that their comments had been misrepresented in the press. They claimed that their criticism was aimed at the manager, not the girls. R&J said that they liked the song, had no problem with the video and were not anti-gay. They just did not like the way the group was being marketed by their manager.



Having not heard R&J's original comments, I cannot say if they have been misrepresented but they have both always seemed very gay-friendly (e.g. in their interview with Rachael Sterling when she was promoting "Tipping The Velvet"). I am inclined to believe them.





Edited to add: I see that the article you quoted described R&J as "BBC personalities", whereas their show is actually on Channel 4, so the press can sometimes have problems with accuracy.

Edited by: kajo 2000 at: 2/6/03 6:52:04 am

[Kalita]

Quote:

---

a child psychologist/advertising executive

---

Just seeing those two titles slashed together tells me everything I need to know about this.



There's no way I would support anything being promoted by someone who describes themselves this way. It's exactly this type of thing society does NOT need.

"...not many people understood the karmic value of grilled cheese."

-Tara, Blue Athame's Angels and Goddesses

[hellmouthhottie20]

I also saw the interview in heat - It does make a very interesting read , like willowrocks said, they do seem genuine, in a odd sort of way.



Caz

There are many things worth living for, there are a few things worth dying for but there is nothing worth killing for.

Edited by: hellmouthhottie20 at: 2/6/03 8:58:01 am

[urnofosiris]

Thanks for the information Kajo. I did wonder whether they were being misquoted. I was ranting in general really. Though it sounds like I was targetting them, it was more my way of expressing my sentiments towards that manager.

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

[Pale dreamer]

i heard about tatu long time ago on a late night show, cant remeber wot it was called, but it was about up coming bands or something. anyway i looked them up on the net to see if i could hear some of their music, and rea a article that said they arent lesbians, they are just good friends.

[cattwoman98111]

I have just recently heard about this controversy. There are a few points that I want to make. Promotion is how music sells. The more it is prompted and any controversy that may surround it makes it more appealing to people, an example would be eminem, the bad boy that everyone loves to hate, but they still listen too. They still play his music here in the U.S. right wrong or indifferent. Controversy gets attention, but at what time do we as a society say enough is enough?

We here in Seattle have a radio station that every year subjects famous women to a poll, who is the sexiest woman of the year. This POLL (I use the term loosely) asks the listener to vote from a pre-created list, now my point here is this, Britney Spears is always on the list, she gets pretty high ratings, and why you ask, because of her school girl outfit and the image it created. The majority of people who participate in this poll are between the age of 25-50 and male.

Exploitation gets attention, creates revenue, and degrades certain members of society. As a member of this society I am truly disgusted that people will buy into this. I firmly believe that we need positive role models, 2 young women that have been manipulated into creating a certain image does nothing but create the attention that this music producer wanted. Yes, it brings the gay issue to the front of the stage, but at what cost?

[MellindraX]

I've just finished reading through this thread, and it's been rather interesting. Because this is really my first jump into the actual Kitten Board rather than just the creative area, I'd never heard of TATU before. I avoid the media like the plague (it depresses the hell out of me, and often makes little to no sense), and anything about pop culture? HA!



While reading through this, I started downloading all the TATU songs I could find, and am listening to them as I type, and I honestly like the music (even if I can't understand what they're saying in half the songs ^^). I checked out the video on one of the many fansites I found in two seconds, and while I do agree it was obviously a sex sells sort of thing, I've found that every single music video I have ever watched, no exception, is either based around sex, how much can it gross fans out, or how much can I make this look "trippy". That's really no issue.



The manager admitting to targetting the band towards pediophiles? All that makes him to me is more honest than most managers in the pop culture buisness, even if he is a sick excuse for a person. It is horrible that he would be doing this, and I don't condone his actions in anyway. I don't plan on supporting the band by anything, because I don't buy anything related to music (unless you count blank cd's).



Whether or not the girls are actually gay? In any case, it really doesn't matter. If they're gay, great for them and I hope they're happy. If they're not, then I feel bad that their manager is making them act like that for publicity. The fact that the lesbian element is being used for publicity is bad, but as Patches pointed out, it could even be seen in a positive light, that it is now a gimmick for positive publicity, than something to be secreted away for fear of negative publicity.



People who connect this issue to the perpetual motion machine that is homophobia, and specifically the stereotype that homosexual=pedophile, shouldn't be worried about. I honestly believe that if they would connect the dots that way, then they believed that stereotype to begin with. The only people who we should worry about in that concern are the people who can be influenced by the first to believe that stereotype, but if they would believe that to begin with, then they're going to be influenced by such thoughts all ready.



I've rambled and said my short piece. I'm positive I've forgotten several things I was going say, and am equally sure they were good points, but I can't remember them. To sum up, I hope the manager gets caught doing something amazingly reprehensible and illegal, and goes to jail for many years, and I hope the girls' music careers go well and that we can hear some more stuff from them.

[Grimaldi]

i've read the article on zap2it and some friends brought them up, so i thought that i'd download the song just to see what the hype was about. didn't really like the song that much so i don't really have an opinion on them musically, but their manger sounds like a scumbag who if he is pushing pedophilla should be locked up.

You can't just go declaring shenanigans on innocent people, that's how wars get started!
I'm not stealing, I'm just taking things without paying for them. In what twisted dictionary is that stealing?

[EffieBlue]

I've been reading through all of the posts and I'm pleased people have felt curious, interested, or just pissed with the thread enough to take the time to not only post, but to do some investigating themselves.



THANK YOU.



My original idea was to just get people looking beyond what at first seemed like a breakthrough into young pop culture by a couple of young women expressing their love for each other in song and video.



If that had been the case I would be passing on the word about them to everyone I could think of and damning the BBC for not playing the video...Which I don't think is the most effective thing to have done... BUT, as the title of the thread says, I began to get a very uneasy feeling about the whole TATU package, the more I looked into it.



Firstly, after reading the managers comments about his facination for child porn, I began to feel uncomfortable about myself watching the video. This pissed me off, who is this guy to make me feel uncomfortable about myself, my sexuality, after years of being out and proud and yes I admit it, marching and banner toting and flag waving and sitting down in protest in Trafalgar Square.



Then I calmed down, I'm not the one who should be feeling uncomfortable HE is. HE'S the pervert NOT me.



What does get me pissed off though, is the way the media, just seem to gloss over the fact that this guy openly states he visits child porn sites, and WANTS to provide more for the the paedophiles who get their kicks from such places. Every image on those sites is a child abused and robbed of their innocence and damaged for life. This is where the money from cd sales will be going, making more images available for those, and I quote Shapovalov "Dissatisfied" users of child porn sites.

This is what i object to and wont subscribe to.



MellindraX said "I hope the manager gets caught doing something amazingly reprehensible and illegal, and goes to jail for many years,"



As far as I was aware, there is currently an international effort to bring to account everyone who patronises internet child porn sites. I know police here are paying visits to everyone who has used a credit card to enter a child porn site and downloading images to a pc gets you a jail sentence.



So I ask, why isn't someone paying Shapovalov a visit, what more will it take for him to be brought to police attention?



I could be very cynical here and say that he has got away with it so far because he is depicting young/underage women together. Girl on Girl action has been a mainstay of porn for as long as porn has been around. However the majority of men who watch porn do not like to see Man on Man action.

Would he have got away with selling a couple of underage guys to the record industry? Somehow I think not. But like I said, maybe I'm just being cynical.



The young women of TATU need to get themselves a decent lawyer, if their record label has any morals they should be jumping all over this, getting the young women out of that contract. The longer they let this go on, the more it appears that the record company supports and condones Shapovalovs views about child porn and underage sex.





Jill

[seurat]

There's an article in todays Globe And Mail newspaper here that talks about the group and the controversy. The address is http://www.globeandmail.com, look under arts.



The article pretty much speaks for itself. The cutline on the picture, which is not included online, reads While the lesbian routine is dismissed by many as bad acting, their ages, outfits and overtly sexual behavior have drawn fire. The article headline is The great pop'n'porn swindle

(shades of the sex pistols, of course) and the pic at the beginning of the section has a cutline that reads Faux Lesbians Stir Things Up.

[Caoilin]

Hey everyone,



I've been following this thread for a while now and have really enjoyed everyone's points about this. I also agree that this group's manager is vile. Of course, I feel that way about any exploitation of children or reinforcement of the master narrative.



However, this topic has brought up an interesting question that, frankly, I'm not articulate enough to argue and would love for some of you to talk about it. So, to begin, here's some of what Piper said about this:

Quote:

---

They didn't manufacture, research, plot carefully, intricately map out and otherwise make a scheme of their art. It's the INTENT that we are disgusted with. It's the INTENT that makes us sick to choking, it's the INTENT we can't get past. The INTENT is WRONG. The INTENT is damaging, distorting and otherwise perpetuating further mis-identification of porn, pedophilia and every other sexual perversion with homosexuality.

---

And here's a quote from our own cliche thread:

Quote:

---

Did ME kill Tara because she was gay? No. But intentions don't matter, results do.

---

Given this apparent contradiction, I (and others) would really appreciate a coherent argument about the nature of "intent" and whether it should or should not be a factor when evaluating things like this.



Thanks kittens. I always dig a well formed argument.

[AlteaThree]

seurat thank you for the link! I usually like globeandmail.com, as their acticles are often well-rounded, well-researched and show a good understanding of Canadian cultures, and in fact the many, many hundreds of other cultures But, this article seems to ignore the big issue, the deeper issue, and that sort of suprised me. It focused on the shock value of tatu. Of course there will be a some hoop-la over a video which has sexual overtones. So what??? While it was still a better article than most papers would have written, I would have liked to see it go deeper. But, of course, the issue of openly-gay young people is an issue that many people are nervous about, and this sort of intro may lead to acceptance. Or....

Maybe Globeandmail should get journalist Jan Wong to write an article rather than wasting her on kung-fu grandpas...

"Hey, did you go to Hollywood Upstairs Medical college too?"

[Caoilin]

I apologize for stirring a hornet's nest. My only goal in pointing out the question was to find a argumentatively sound way of defending our faq. I did not want to provide fodder for either an argument (in a bad way) or the passing troll who would use it against us.



I merely wanted us to be clear about the distinction. Personally, I do not believe that intent matters in either context. Granted, the manager of Tatu, by admitting his marketing focus, has confirmed himself as a disgusting pig. But what about the band manager that, following societal cues that suggest it's sellable, similarly exploits children? It's the underlying societal programming to accept such filth that should be our focus, IMO.



Again, please excuse me for directing the thread in this direction.



Thanks,

Caoilin