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T.A.T.U. An uneasy feeling.

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Re: another angle. . .

Postby J uk » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:01 am

www.thesun.co.uk/article/...66,00.html



Quote:
Tatu: Pose nude for us



By THOMAS WHITAKER



LESBIAN pop duo Tatu are calling on girl fans as young as FOURTEEN to join them naked in a mass photo shoot.



Sexpots Julia Volkova and Lena Katina, who are both 18, plan to use the picture on the cover of their next album.



The girls, who fondle each other on stage during their raunchy act, ask fans to send in photos of themselves.



A Tatu spokesman said yesterday: “We are looking for the most beautiful, coolest, cleverest and youngest girls.”



In Russia, 14 is the age of consent. In Britain it is 16. The NSPCC last night blasted the idea as an “irresponsible publicity stunt”.



A spokesman said: “We strongly urge young girls not to send naked photographs of themselves.”


J uk
 


Re: another angle. . .

Postby xita » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:14 am

Oh, that's horrible and isn't that child pornography? Couldn't they get arrested for that here?



I think at this point, the blame for this would have to go to the girls of TATU and their manager. It's one thing to allow yourself to be made to do things it's another to use your influence to make young girls do things.



I am not sure if you know the story of Gloria Trevi, but she ended up in jail for using her celebrity to lure in young girls for her manager. Right or wrong, that's what happened to her. Even though she herself at one point was a kid under the care of her manager.



I am worried for these girls now.

-----------------------------------

Si nos dejan buscamos un rincón cerca del cielo

Si nos dejan haremos con las nubes térciopelo



José Alfredo Jiménez

Edited by: xita  at: 4/16/03 10:48:56 am
xita
 


Re: re:is it just

Postby tommo » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:45 am

Quote:
A Tatu spokesman said yesterday: “We are looking for the most beautiful, coolest, cleverest and youngest girls.”




Is it the use of a generic term here, or is it purposeful that it's a spokesman and not spokesperson who is saying this.



Ah yes. What wonderful role models we're being provided with. It's okay to be beautiful, cool, clever, young and naked. Tell me, where does this invite young people struggling with their sexuality to find some solace or know that they are not alone? And if you're not beautiful, cool, clever, or young, then what do you do?



This is just the most appalling shit I've heard in a long long time. These people must be stopped. They must.



I was being patient, but it took too long. I mean, I miss Buffy, I do. But life shouldn't just stop because she's gone.

tommo
 


Re: re:is it just

Postby maudmac » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:05 pm

What the fuck? Now they're soliciting for "the youngest" girls they can find to pose nude? What is that?



I really think that's a step too far. This is over the line.



I've felt conflicted about the situation so far. As has already been said, there are many things wrong with this picture, but there's also no doubt it might help gay kids or kids who might be questioning their sexuality to see two girls kissing on TV. Not that that's what their manager was trying to do, not by a long shot. It's just an accident that there are kids out there who feel like homosexuality is more acceptable, and, thus, they are more acceptable.



Part of me feels like we've made progress. Part of me is just disgusted that these girls have been exploited by some lecherous Svengali.



But this thing about them soliciting pictures of naked girls for the CD cover? Someone needs to go to prison now.


I had a Boddingtons and now I can see again! - The Beast

maudmac
 


T.A.T.U.

Postby primalfigure » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:11 pm

Well, I own T.A.T.U.'s album and it's sub-par at best. All the things she said, is the best song on the album. They wrote NONE of the songs on that album, most being written for them by men...makes me suspicious. Their voices are decent, but why are they being catapaulted to "superstardom"? Really, image is everything isn't it? I'll confess I bought the CD, partly because I wanted to support lesbian music. Now, think how many people like me are being dupped into buying the CD of two proported lesbians, and yet are being decieved. I feel dually ripped off. Not only is the album treacherously crappy, but I've fell for a marketing ploy. :skull



I also had no idea they were so young when filming that video. It's disturbing. Young girls from a struggling Former super-power might have done anything to be millionaires. You can't sell who you are for money, it's a losing deal. Or who you aren't for money:no , more than likely.

primalfigure
 


Re: Intent vs. Results

Postby Bookcat » Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:08 pm

Oh, Jesus Christ.

I was trying to ignore the stupidity of the publicity stunt side of this group, and just stare at the video (which I downloaded illegaly as to not support the manager, et all). But that just can't happen. I want to like sign a petition or post this all over school or something--maybe post it all over MTV.com and any other music site? Seriously, that ain't cool. I just hope my Russian peers are smarter than that and don't send in pictures.

Hello? Is there anybody out there?


No, just macaroni.

Bookcat
 


Re: TATU got married?

Postby EffieBlue » Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:02 pm

This has moved way beyond the sexuality of the two young women. It has moved beyond the manager, making remarks about filling a niche in the market. It is now following the pattern of the child abuser. Grooming the young child into the 'next step'. First you get them used to the little things then move on from there.



This is exactly what the publicity machine of TATU are doing. What young girl doesn't want to be part of the pop business appear in a video or on a poster? Everything they see on tv, in magazines tells them this is what they should aspire to.



Fame.



There will be hundreds of young women sending in their photos or turning up hoping to be chosen. The paedophiles must be laughing into their macs.



Someone HAS to do something to put a stop to this. Surely the police have to be taking some sort of action?



What will be the next step... 'an innocent little sexual act..just for the camera... but of course it wont be real... it'll all be pretend.. just for the camera, for the video.... you want to be famous don't you?'





Jill



EffieBlue
 


Re: another angle. . .

Postby Jimmi Magnus » Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:30 am

Jill, since the age on consent in Russian is 14, this is not child pornograhy in Russia, and thus the police cannot get involved, since no crime is being comitted. But this cd-cover, or what ever it will end up as, won't be very likely to turn up in other countries, since it might very well be illegal there.

-I feel as if a kitten sat on my face all night

Jimmi Magnus
 


Re: another angle. . .

Postby LostWithoutTara » Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:25 am

I really, really hope and :pray that the Sun is just making up another story. What TATU's people are doing is disgusting and exploitative, and is creating links between homosexuality and paedophilia. Get rid of them, now.

LostWithoutTara
 


Re: re:is it just

Postby AmberAlysonlover » Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:23 pm

I dont believe the story about asking young girls to join them naked. I dont believe they would do such a thing. It's been talked about so much, just like the one about their UK tour. They said if girls from the age of 14-17 went to their gigs, dressed like school girls they get in for free. Now, I wont wanna miss out on making loads of money from gigs. That story is fake. If u wanted to do that, u had to post on their message board and I saw nothing on there.



So I cant believe everyone believes the new story. They are nice girls who just wanna be famous. Their manger is the sick on here. He should grow up and act real. They might not be gay or bi, but they are used to make money for him. I love Tatu alot but he is the one who calls the shots...

AmberAlysonlover
 


Re: t.A.T.u 3rd

Postby AlexisWillow » Sun May 25, 2003 1:35 pm

Ello all - Bienvinu - Hola - Danke - i can't speak any european languages! Yes it was eurovision last night and the Tatu gals said (supposedly) that they were going to get married if they wont the eurovision song contest!

So i guess i better cancel the new hat order, and tell jeeves the chauffer to go home with the Limo (poor old man been waiting outside my flat since friday night!).

No "saucy" antics on stage as the latvian organisers feard, and it seemed like they used all preparation footage of Julia being moody!

WHat gets me is in the Reuters and APTN news feeds i get at work, the footage is titled "eurovision wrap". The only pefromances you get a glimpse of is the winning group (and its a short cut down peformance) and then half of the t.a.t.u peformance together with Julia and Lena being bombarded by the press after the competition while they are trying to eat their dinner!

Errr - some people complaining about them doing publicity stunts, but i think its not just their manager and that trying to cause trouble and controversy, i think that the press want controversy and want to sell stories in papers. Its like a whole tabloid campaign thing.

Well i guess i feel sorry for em. They came 3rd, no wedding (weather they were going to do it or not anyway!), that woman from the british band said that Julia was stalking her "AS IFFF!".

okay - i'll be quiet now!

AlexisWillow
 


Re: T.A.T.U.

Postby tommo » Sun May 25, 2003 2:01 pm

Well, from the sounds of it, all reports of bad behaviour are hearsay and probably created in order to court publicity. However, if that's the only newsworthy thing you can say about TATU, then I have to say, I'm not impressed.



Oh, and as for their attempts to sing live? Not impressed with that, either.



"Let's be happy, let's be gay..." ~ Germany tells it like it is.

tommo
 


Re: Intent vs. Results

Postby J uk » Sun May 25, 2003 2:15 pm

It would have been nice if they'd rehearsed it, or had a routine worked out, or at least attempted to dress up a bit. Also, I'd consider stalking the girl from the UK entry if I knew where she lived. She was really pretty, and only a little tone-deaf.

J uk
 


Re: TATU got married?

Postby tommo » Sun May 25, 2003 2:27 pm

She's from Liverpool, JUK. They both are.



Please don't ask me why/how I know. I lead a very sad life at times. Ahem. I like Girls Aloud. ;)



"Let's be happy, let's be gay..." ~ Germany tells it like it is.

tommo
 


re: another angle

Postby Twisted Minstrel » Mon May 26, 2003 12:17 am

Living in the U.S., we don't really see very much publicity over here about TATU (none that I've seen); young girls dressed in trampy clothes smooching is pretty much a next-to-everyday-thing on television. I guess after two decades of Madonna no one's interested anymore.



But that's not what I want to say. There's all this talk about role models and publicity stunts and evil managers and there's nothing new here. If you want a role model, I'll recommend Amber Benson or Tori Amos or someone like that. If you want a publicity stunt, call the White House, they've got bags of them. If you want an evil manager, hang out at a porn shop, one will show up.



Or how about this - instead of paying attention to every thing you read, see and hear in the newspapers, television, internet and radio, you actually go out there and be a role model yourself? We have to make the future, no one can do that for us. I'm tired of people begging for someone to look up to - sorry, there's no one there. We've reached the end (maybe just a cliffhanger) of some societal or artistic road (remember art - used to be such a thing) and there's nothing here. Nothing. Being gay is no different than being straight - except there's no power. If you want the power, you have to go out and SEIZE it. You have to MAKE the art, make the music, the books, the radio, the internet, the movies, the politics, whatever - relying on anyone or any group of anyones to do that for you is ridiculous.



It's hard to live in this world but I believe we make and lose our own fortunes. If you sit around, nothing is going to change. If you get up and work, the change will happen. TATU is a waste of time. They represent nothing positive and defending them is like defending smoking or conservative politics - there's no excuse for any of it . You may like it, it may give you a head rush - but in the end, you get nothing and those around you get nothing.



Whatever is coming to TATU and their manager will get here soon enough. Giving them one more minute of your time and attention is just one less minute you have to spend being something special. Why give them all this power? Take it back and give it to yourself. YOU are the best role model you have.



And if you want to add Xita and Tommo and every other kitten on this board and Amber Benson (because we love her anyway) and my mother (even if she is crazy) and your mother and sister and girlfriend and wife and all those other people close to you you're not paying attention to, why - who needs a couple of teenagers from the Ukraine? We've got role models aplenty.



Peace! :peace



www.geocities.com/dijeratti/index.html



Edited by: Twisted Minstrel  at: 5/25/03 11:20:47 pm
Twisted Minstrel
 


Re: another angle. . .

Postby MOUSE » Mon May 26, 2003 1:06 am



Word to that Twisted Minstrel!

MOUSE
 


scary.

Postby sprhrgrl » Mon May 26, 2003 6:28 pm

have you seen the video for "they're not gonna get us?" It plays out like a high school shootout. The lyrics aren't as scary, but the video left a big lump in my throat.

sprhrgrl.com

she's my everything


racism=sexism=homophobia

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off. - Gloria Steinem

sprhrgrl
 


Twisted Minstrel

Postby Yelnif » Wed May 28, 2003 10:17 am

Bon soir Twisted Minstrel.

So hey, you might not know me, I'm relatively new. I just wanted to say this in response to your latest post up there.



I'm not saying I do support T.A.T.U, far from it. But when I first heard about them and saw the video I was all for it, mainly because I wrongly thought it was something close to real. That was all before the talk of paedophilia and fake relationships and cartoon-villain-style Russian managers.



Anyway, that's actually more or less irrelevant. But on the whole role model question; well I think the words "role model" might actually be completely wrong altogether. Whilst it's all very well to say stop looking for someone to show you how to live your life, it's very much easier said than done from the point of view of me and millions of other young lesbians. (And incidentally, I am still SO uncomfortable with that word it takes me a minute to even type it.)



I've spent the last two years of my life, possibly more, being (healthily) obsessed with W/T, simply because its a light at the end of the tunnel. Where I am in my life at the moment, physically as well as anything else, I'm a million miles away from what and where I want to be. It's hard to remember that life gets better when you're fifteen years old, spending all your time in the hormonal pressure cooker that is a secondary school, and surrounded by everyone and everything that is what you are not. Namely, straight. And if sitting up at 2 am, unable to sleep and watching a couple of actresses kiss on a Buffy video reminds me that I'm not always going to be this completely alone then I'll do it. And if T.A.T.U had been real, and not quite so completely immoral, then I probably would have made them my 'role models' as well.



Hence, the video shelf upstairs in my room full of BtVS box sets, and hence, dare I say it, this website (or at least my being here.) Speaking for myself, (because I only know how I feel) I am certainly in no position to go out there and be my own gay icon or role model, when every aspect of my life is limited by being gay, and its being gay that makes me the most unhappy. It helps to know there are gay people out there that have a good life as well. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any point in trying to make it through adolescence.



Just my thoughts.

Peace and Love. Yelnif.

Yelnif
 


Re: T.A.T.U.

Postby tommo » Wed May 28, 2003 11:23 am

What a well thought out and wonderfully expressed post, Yelnif. I understand the restraints placed on you by daily life; I think in some way every lesbian has suffered from that at some point in their life, and still we continue to try to make our way through life and do what we can; the most important thing we do is, I think, being true to ourselves.



If you can't be your own role model (and I totally understand where you're coming from in that respect, heh) then take heart and look at some of the wonderful influences that have appeared on the board over the years. I know that being here for four years (or so) has really helped me feel better about being gay, and also helped me to "virtualise", if you like, my sexuality into the real world.



My advice to you would be to look around and make friends with the people whom you feel you can trust and relate to, either on the board or in real life. I know that I have a bunch of real life friends now who are role models to me. They're women who are my age; they have careers and lives that fit in with who they are and who they want to be with, and it makes me feel proud to know them and want to be a part of their lives too.



When we talk about role models, I honestly can't say that I find fictional characters influential when it comes to my life. The people I look up to and aspire to emulate are the same people that I go out with; the same people that I chat with, and the same people who have integrated themselves into my life experience. Reality and a real experience is the only way to fashion and comprehend your own sexuality, I think. And whilst the struggle is hard for a teenger; perhaps harder than for someone of my advanced years, heh heh, I think in the end, the people you meet who help you continue along the way are the ones who essentially become role models.



I'm proud of myself and of my friends and the people who have stuck with me through thick and thin. Mainly thin, actually. They're my role models and I don't feel that I need to look elsewhere for inspiration.



Bearing in mind this is all typed after a couple of beers, uh, I think it makes sense...ahem...



Going now. ;)



"No cheese? Well, I brought you some. It's extra stinky." ~ New Cheese Rising

tommo
 


Re: TATU

Postby Yelnif » Wed May 28, 2003 2:45 pm

Hey hey Tommo.

I know what you mean about thinking of the people around you as role models. Three of the strongest people I think I've ever met are my two brothers and sister, and I have some really good friends, all of whom I love and value and admire in different ways.



That's why I think 'role models' is the wrong term for TATU or W/T, etc. The relationship they have does inspire me to a certain extent, but I wouldn't say I think of either of them as role models in the strictest sense, i.e. I don't try to live my life LIKE either one of them. Sure, I befriended a vampire slayer and took up witchcraft but what does that prove?:glasses



But to think of it that way, I suppose none of us really need role models other than ourselves. But I think it's good to have gay icons out there for people, especially young people or sexually confused people, just so that they can understand that people can be gay AND happy. TATU, had they been honestly together and, well, not without a conscience, would have been a nice influence for me, the budding musician, to show that a song written by a girl, about a girl actually can go to number one. But maybe I'll just be the one to set the trend.



At the end of the day, I'm pretty much okay. I'm not dependant on these influences/icons/role models to get me through the days... although admittedly, they make them a little brighter. It's not as though I'm not confident enough in myself to 'set my own examples', I am a secure and confident person generally, but my big gay achilles heel does tend to get in the way quite a lot, living in this seemingly completely heterosexual environment of mine. I'm not ultimately unhappy with who I am, but I know it'll take a while for me to feel totally happy with the gay thang, no matter who I look to for reassurance.



Peace and Love. Yelnif.

Yelnif
 


re: replies

Postby Twisted Minstrel » Wed May 28, 2003 10:08 pm

Yelnif - bon soir to you as well.



After reading your last post, I think you answered your own question, but I'll repeat what I said before - being gay is no different than being straight. It's a matter of power. Everything you have said (that any of us could say) about our struggles with sexuality is true of everyone, whatever their preference. The difference being what image dominates - and that is something I do believe you and I and every other person who might identify as gay or lesbian or other, has to take back on our own. Having someone to look up to is important (how else do we learn how to behave?) but no one is perfect and likely to disappoint - especially if you are looking for something that likely isn't there.



Take Willow and Tara for an example. They do not exist. They are an image, unreal, invented by a straight man as a complication and plot device used to entertain his audience. This was provocative and a little daring and it captured the imagination of a lot of people - gay and straight. But this is a kind of manipulation. Joss Wedon had power to do whatever he wanted with them. His manipulation of our vision - whatever his intention - was devastating. So many identified with Tara and Willow. So many were hurt that anyone could do something bad to them, something so underhanded - yet what were we really to expect? If you go looking for an idol, you're going to be disappointed.



In a way, what Joss did is not so different from what our evil manager is doing with TATU, and the way so many are responding. They love the image of these girls - not the reality. Reality is boring. Reality is painful and stupid and why should we play along with it? I think it is arguable that what transports us these days is not ideas - but images. Joss said he intended Buffy to be an icon - a symbol. What that symbol is is debatable. How you interpret that symbol is based on your experience with other symbols, images, life - or you can choose to ignore it all together. After all - you didn't invent Buffy or Willow or Tara. Somebody else did. It's not about you. This is the hardest part to understand.



What is fan fiction? Our own manipulation of that vision to suit our own needs? What is fandom in general? Why are we fans of anything? There is such a need for wholeness, for acceptance and understanding, there are those who will look almost anywhere to find it. Maybe they are empowered by it. I hope so. That would be the good, but that is not the intention. The intention is to entertain and to turn off your mind for the time that you are entertained - to turn it off to anything but what is giving you pleasure at that moment. To accept as real that the image before you is bigger than you are, better than you are and still a 'reflection' of you. You can look - but you can't touch.



These are big questions without really good answers and as you get older you'll be re-writing them to suit yourself and looking less and less to others to do that for you. Support is important, having friends and family is important - but so is setting the example we want to see. No one can tell you who you are. That's why I don't like labels and I don't really identify with any of them. Being comfortable with not playing along with the rules - not wanting to be ruled by an image - this is the really hard part. Thinking for yourself, having your own ideas and not seeking approval or acceptance from anyone else for them - seek an audience, seek a friend, seek affirmation or understanding - but it's all up to you in the end. How YOU see things.



Hopefully you can learn to look without a dark adapted eye - but with an open mind, free from the clutter of images that so many people are competing with your sense of self for. You are you. You are the only you. There is no one like you. As Auden wrote:



The sense of danger must not disappear:

The way is certainly both short and steep,

However gradual it looks from here;

Look if you like, but you will have to leap.



Tough-minded men get mushy in their sleep

And break the by-laws any fool can keep;

It is not the convention but the fear

That has a tendency to disappear.



The worried efforts of the busy heap,

The dirt, the imprecision, and the beer

Produce a few smart wisecracks every year,

Laugh if you can, but you will have to leap.



The clothes that are considered right to wear

Will not be either sensible or cheap,

So long as we consent to live like sheep

And never mention those who disappear.



Much can be said for social savoir-faire,

But to rejoice when no one else is there

Is even harder than it is to weep;

No one is watching, but you have to leap.



A solitude ten thousand fathoms deep

Sustains the bed on which we lie, my dear:

Although I love you, you will have to leap;

Our dream of safety has to disappear





Now that I've rambled myself into a stupor, I shall sign off.



Peace and love to you all as well.



www.geocities.com/Dijeratti/index.html

Twisted Minstrel
 


Re: t.A.T.u 3rd

Postby kajo 2000 » Fri May 30, 2003 6:14 am

From The Advocate:



Quote:
Russia protests Eurovision votes against Tatu

Friday, May 30, 2003



BBC News reports that Russia's Channel One, which broadcast last weekend's annual Eurovision Song Contest, is discrediting the results of the contest after the nation's lesbian pop duo, Tatu, finished third. The group finished just three points behind contest winner Sertab Erener of Turkey and received low point scores from the United Kingdom and Ireland.



Normally, Irish viewers vote by phone, but since votes could not be collated in time, a jury voted Ireland's points in the competition. Channel One argues that if Ireland's public phone vote had taken place, Tatu might have scored higher. "Considering insignificant difference in points between the first and third places, there are grounds to believe that the contest results could be much different for Russia," said a statement.



Little known in the United States, the Eurovision contest is hugely popular throughout much of the rest of the world, and winning is a point of national pride for the countries that participate.


---------

"I want to be Byron... because I want to date young boys." Amber Benson

kajo 2000
 


Re: another angle. . .

Postby tommo » Fri May 30, 2003 10:14 am

Well isn't that interesting, considering when the Russian votes came in, it was clearly stated that they were decided by a jury also. What's good for the goose, and all that...



And you know, when it comes down to it, it's the bloody Eurovision, not the Nobel Peace Prize. It doesn't hold much weight in this country, and I'm sure it's seen in much the same light in a lot of other European countries as well. So really, it's a storm in a teacup.



"No cheese? Well, I brought you some. It's extra stinky." ~ New Cheese Rising

tommo
 


Twisted Minstrel

Postby Yelnif » Fri May 30, 2003 4:19 pm

Hey hey Twisted Minstrel.



I just wanted to reply to your post because I want to clear up a few things. First of all, you’re probably right that being gay is no different from being straight, other than the power. But the power, and the numbers, do make quite a big difference. (Again, I keep coming back to myself as an example, but I’m sure you can appreciate that I only know how to speak from my own experience. Or I’m just ridiculously self-centered.:) )



When everyone, or at least everyone that I’m aware, around me is straight, that makes me feel all the more isolated. It’s human nature to feel alone when you’re in the minority, let alone the only one in the minority in your environment. Just as it’s human nature to be attracted to people, and being in the midst of adolescence with all those hormones flying around like little monkeys, it’s overwhelmingly depressing to be under the impression that you’re completely alone and will be for the foreseeable future (regardless of whether I will be.)



My point is, I wouldn’t have got this far without having Willow and Tara as my “role models” (and again I have to stress that I think that’s the wrong term altogether.) I’m well aware of how dramatic and, to some people, desperate a statement that is so I don’t say it lightly. Whether or not Joss Whedon wanted to set a example or role model, and I know that it wasn’t his priority, the fact is, he did. People did look up to them and admire them and they were role models. Incidentally, they were good role models, but surely Joss Whedon’s intention is completely beside the point. (Unfortunately, Ivan the Terrible seems to be using TATU to set a completely bad example, but he doesn’t care either. He’s quite obviously in it for the money.)



When I watch Buffy, I don’t really think about Joss Whedon or his intentions, the only thing he is to me is a name that comes up at the end. But having gay icons or influences for gay people to relate to is so important because of the difference in power between gay and straight people. Straight people have influences EVERYWHERE. This is a predominantly heterosexual world, after all, and anyone who is in the public eye is going to be made a role model whether they like it or not, and whether they know it or not. Stands to reason that there should be more straight role models than gay ones because that’s a fair representation of the world; there are more straight people.



Yes, everyone loves the perfect image of Willow and Tara or the girls in TATU, because, as you say, the reality is likely to painful. Reality does tend to be painful. Again I come back to being isolated and lonely and gay and young. The reality of that is painful, so I am all the more likely to look for some kind of escapism, for example, a TV relationship that I can relate to. And it did help me a lot. When I watched Buffy I didn’t ‘turn my brain off’, far from it. It inspired me, it comforted me and it made me feel a part of something which wasn’t so lonely. So I’m inclined to think it’s a good thing to have gay influences for gay people so that they don’t feel so alone.



In a perfect world everyone would have the strength of character to set the example they’d like to see. But not everyone is empowered enough to do that, least of all the people who already feel so alone. They need inspiration in the form of the so-called “role models” to see that what they want and what they are is not wrong or shameful. I consider myself to be a very strong person and I needed help from icons. Maybe I shouldn’t have, but I did, and I’m much better off for it even if I’m still as alienated from my environment as I always was.



I wish I could say that I am happy ‘not playing along with the rules’ but I’m not, especially when I feel like I’m the only one. As you say, people have a need for acceptance and understanding, none more so than such an already unhappy community as gay kids in a straight world. If they find that understanding in W/T or anything else then I can’t help but feel it’s a good thing.



Yes, Joss Whedon had the power to do what he wanted with the characters, and evidently, he did. It was his right to. However ill-advised and hurtful his decisions were, they were still his to make. It was insensitive of him not to recognize, or at least understand the fact that he had, unwittingly or otherwise, created two of the most powerful gay role models ever. But whatever mistakes Joss Whedon made I still think it’s a good thing that he provided, possibly unintentionally, such good role models in the first place, if they were able to reach so many people and touch so many lives.



I do think for myself, I do have my own ideas and I certainly don’t need approval from anyone else, and having any role models or influences in my life has never ever changed that. I don’t like labels either. No one likes labels, least of all those who are most vulnerable and susceptible to them. I don’t like any word that labels me as homosexual, but it doesn’t stop me being that. Willow and Tara were proud of being gay, I’m not ready to say that about myself yet. But they demonstrated to me that you can be proud of it, people in the world are proud of it, and it’s nothing to not be proud of. If a role model can do that for a person then I don’t see the harm in it.



Maybe that’s a very naïve view to take, but I can’t being an optimist and believing there’s more to life than only what I create. I certainly wouldn’t agree that I have a dark-adapted eye. Yes I am me, I am the only me and no one can tell me who I am. But I’ve known that all along.



Peace and Love. Yelnif.

Yelnif
 


T.A.T.U. on MTV Movie Awards

Postby Nation » Fri Jun 06, 2003 4:31 am

Well other than the lip-synching in certain parts of the song, I guess the performance was okay. I wasn't expecting all the dancing "schoolgirls", but as far as publicity went I think it worked in their favor. At least P-Diddy and Ashton Kutcher think so. :) I think America is just sort of seeing them as pop singers, rather than lesbian pop singers, since it's not really "shocking" over here for them to be gay (as it may be in Russia). And let's not forget, the schoolgirl look launched Brittany Spears a few years ago when she was still underaged as well (not that I'm a fan...'cause I'm not). Publicity can make or break an artist and I think T.A.T.U. are doing what they can to make a name for themselves. But it's up to their performances to keep their career going, so we'll just see.....cheers!



Nation

Nation
 


Re: Twisted Minstrel

Postby veronsmygirl » Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:36 am

same old yelnif,speakin her mind as usual :clap :sob i remember you on buffy.com :bigwave ,i also remember you saying you would never tell your parents you were gay,i just looked on your recent posts and now i find out your mum knows,,great news ride ,anyway guess your wonderin who i am arent you,well im willowschic remember me,(bet you dont)anyway yelnif keep up the good work see ya

veronsmygirl
 


Re: TATU

Postby 3peanuts » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:23 pm

I have this strange feeling: why do we (and I mean we gay gals, gay guys) find this all TATU thing so attractive? Their music isn't much better than simple pop music. So I think it all depends on our lack of models: we are so hungry in looking for models we can recognize in, that we accept and love a couple of teens acting a market-created role, something we probably wouldn't accept if we had a thousand W/T examples. The same thing happened to me: my gf bought me their cd, and my reaction was "oooohhh thy're so cute". Two days later I saw that fictional kiss during a music show and I felt disturbed. Everybody there was shouting against them: nobody thought that it was a shame everybody was attacking them. Press just made a scandal for the kiss but not a scandal for the homophobic-horror-show audience played.



So I have a question: is it fair that we must see two little girls acting that way, to see us represented? And is this (TATU) the right way?



No offense meant. *peace*

"Cunning linguist" GG

Keynes was right

3peanuts
 


Re: re: replies

Postby tommo » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:56 pm

I think there's five pages in this thread of people saying why they actually don't like Tatu. And they're not representative of me, most certainly. Nor are they representative of 99% of lesbians I've known and met. So I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from.



"Cheese board now." ~ Blue Stilton Willow

tommo
 


re: replies

Postby Twisted Minstrel » Sat Jun 07, 2003 10:36 am

I hope this is not off-sounding, but the topic might have been lost somewhere in the soap box discussions. :hmm



Role models and imagery aside (I really think that's a different thread - is there one out there?) - TATU - whether anyone likes it or not - is clearly having all sorts of affects on different people. Younger generations have a view on this that is, for them, hopeful - some of us see that as naive.



When Madonna first came about she was all with the 'boy toy' thing and being extremely slutty for the camera - yet so many looked up to her and emulated her look and her attitude. Today she is this icon and many appreciate her for creating a 'liberated woman' image.



But did she? Or did she just free up a lot of women to be more in charge sexually? I don't know. There is a difference. It's up to the individual and TATU is no different. The image is all that matters - not the reality behind them, not the machine that makes them run - just the image.



If you know the reality - you can't help but be disgusted by it. If you don't care about the reality - I suppose whatever TATU does or doesn't do - doesn't matter. Time will tell and no doubt a whole new round of TATUs will spring up in the mean time. It's what we get for not caring about the quality of our lives. "Reality" gameshows, corporate globalization, phony wars and phony lesbian pop stars. Such is life in the new world order. :grin



Peace out.

:pride

Twisted Minstrel
 


yes

Postby 3peanuts » Sat Jun 07, 2003 1:16 pm

Great answer Minstrel, I agree.



Nobody, I think, was willing to give as a statement "they suck", I think we're asking ourselves about the problems the commercial exploitation of a lesbian image can create. Just this, sorry if I said something that made somebody upset.:flower :kitty meow

"Cunning linguist" GG

Keynes was right

Edited by: 3peanuts at: 6/7/03 12:18 pm
3peanuts
 

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