Considering Changes to the FAQ

xita · **Posted:** Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:32 pm

I am considering changing the bolded part of the faq:

Quote:

2. What is on topic?
All fics should focus on W/T for a majority of the fic. Angst is very welcome but the end result should be the continuation of the W/T couple, which logically means Willow and Tara are alive and together in the end. Any creative effort featuring Willow or Tara with any other character in any romantic/sexual situation is Off Topic and does not belong on the board. Characters are to be fictional, this means no celebrities or actual people. Post "Seeing Red" events can be incorporated in fic, but no
K ennedy, not ever, not for good or bad.

I am not sure what kittens are feeling like in regards to this change. Willow/Tara would still need to be the main couple and the fanfic would have to be about them and their relationship.

It would also not change the part about nc-17, so that love scenes with w/other and t/other would still not be allowed.

It's been a long time and we are still here, and maybe it's time to open it up creatively. Also, it involves less moderation.

I will leave this open to debate for a few days and then decide based on what kittens want.

xita · **Posted:** Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:56 pm

And if you want it worded differently, please post suggestions.

jasmydae · **Joined:** Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:44 am **Posts:** 425

I very much agree. This change would allow for more varied plots while maintaining the focus on the lovely relationship between our girls.

Laragh · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:42 am

Well personally I like this board because I know I the stories will be just W/T based, however...

If I don't want to read a story, then I just won't.

I think maybe as long as people put in a disclaimer that relationhips featured might be W/T/Other then it would be okay, so that people who want to keep their reading to W/T ONLY can continue to.

I don't know whether I should even be responding to this, since like I've said, if this change comes into place it won't change my reading habits since I won't read anything about W/T/O but that's my two cents anyway!

:peace

Emms · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:59 am

Even though change can be a little scary it sometimes opens doors to wonderful new ideas so... Okay. I'm in.

xoxo
Emms

perchiper · **Joined:** Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:42 pm **Posts:** 67

Well... I've seen a few kittens asking fics other than W/T in the "Looking for a Willow & Tara Fic Thread" and the way their questions were answered. To this point, I openly admired kittenboard's administrator by their way of handling such situation. When some kittens said to me that "people in kittenboard are friendly", I think they describe it accurately.

I can see a bright prospect. Some would be hesitant at first, but I think the majority of kittens will welcome this change with open hand.

For me, I would like to see some W/T/OFC with W/T/OFC as the ending. Those menage... thingies. :smash

with W/T element.

Go kittens :pride

[/url]

DaddyCatALSO · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:14 am

The prohibition on a certain Unnamed Hispanic Slayer has already been violated, in some small ways, as a fringeish character.

LonelyTara · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:41 am

I have to say I'm with Laragh, I like knowing that I'm reading a W/T-centric fic. I think "a majority" might be too vague, we'll have people push that until we have fics where W/T are secondary characters, versus being the focus of the plot. If it's required for authors to post that the fic will focus on multiple couples/characters then that is okay, but it might be good to set some more specific expectations. For example, should W/T have to have some part of at least every other chapter? It'll be interesting to see how this one plays out...What about having a separate thread for fics that look at other characters, like the thread for people work shopping non-fan fic pieces?

Edit...wait, wait, I think I misunderstood...are we saying let there be scenes where W/T sleep with other people? 'Cause then I'm a no, I'm not really into that.

BuffyFan4ever · **Joined:** Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:43 am **Posts:** 434

While I am a huge W/T fan, I have no problem reading other fics. It doesn't help that there are only so many W/T fics out there and I'm a fast reader. I've read some great fics that, while not necessarily W/T, are are really great. They tend to be high school or post Season 7 action fics where whoever Willow is dating, if anyone, is not a huge part of the story.

Maybe you can set up a different sub-site that deals with Buffy stories in general. Even if they can't post the stories here, based on the pairing, people can recommend stories and where to find them, while keeping it separate from the pure W/T fics.

I probably just have to look harder for other discussion boards.

Foomatic · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:10 am

I disagree. I take pride in the fact that the Kittenboard is solely Willow and Tara. The board is not the end all be all of fan fiction. Do a google search; the web is LITTERED with websites and forums where fics that do not adhere to our FAQ can live in perfect harmony. I think the main draw at the board is the wonderful interaction between reader and author. Honestly, who doesn't love feedback? So naturally, everyone wants to be able to post what they want on the board because feedback is such a wonderful thing.

The problem here is not limiting creativity. The problem is when people post their fics without taking the time to educate themselves about what is and isn't allowed on the board. I don't know how much clearer we can be; I made the "So you wanna post some fan fic" thread a sticky hoping that if people didn't know about the FAQ they would at least read that and know A) what makes a good read and B) that there are rules about what can be posted in Pens.

Whenever I pull a fic, 99.9% of the time the response is, "Oh I didn't know, or "I didn't read the FAQ." If I am overgeneralizing and making a bad assumption, I apologize, but this is how I see it: someone invests a lot of time writng and editing their fic. Then they build up the courage to post it, only to have their feelings hurt when it gets taken down because it violates the FAQ (which they didn't read or never knew existed). That is followed by complaints about how stupid the rules are and how they need to be changed. I'm sorry, but if you can't take three minutes to read the Pens FAQ, I have no problem removing your fic.

As for creativity, I am reminded of a scene from Alcy's "Van Rosenberg": Willow travels to Japan and meets a woman she becomes attracted to. The attraction is mutual, and it provided great conflict and angst, and Alcy was able to capture all those emotions without violating the FAQ. It can be done.

Ultimately, I will abide by any rule change you decide on, Xita. This is merely my two cents, and I think it's great that you are having an open discussion about this topic.

LonelyTara · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:19 am

Go Foo Go! Save the W/T goodness!

what_we_do_is_secret · **Joined:** Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:50 am **Posts:** 52

Yeah I'm with Foo, I don't want to read about either of them with other people, leaving aside all other objections I find it pretty boring. I come here and read the fics cus I know what I'm getting (in a relationship sense), there are other fanfic sites for non W/T stuff. Also I would really definitely not be into reading any fics where either of them is paired with a man...that would be pretty offputting for me but you can't really start making up those kind of sub rules if you allow people to run with it. I can think of few things less appealing that reading a W/O sex scene but they'll probably happen if you let it.

I guess a sub-forum dealing with Buffy fics would work but really is there the demand for this right here? Is anyone really unsatisfied with the board to that degree?

Laragh · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:06 am

Sorry for the double post but I had to voice my agreements with what others have said -

A seperate forum (not pens!) for what is currently known as off-topic posts is maybe an idea if that's what people really want, but this is a Willow/Tara fansite.

Not a Willow/Tara/Other fansite.

:peace

Kikidee · **Joined:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:13 am **Posts:** 3

Not usually one for posting but I created an account just to say NO NO NO.

This is Willow/Tara. You want something else, okay, but there's other places to get it.

I think I'd stop visiting if I thought this board was gonna lose it's wonderful W/T-ness :(

Kiki

foreverchanges · **Joined:** Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:23 am **Posts:** 56

I agree wholeheartedly with Foo. The FAQ is there for a reason and if writers choose not to read it, they should accept the consequences for anything they post that falls outside of the rules.

There are a million sites out there hosting combinations of Willow and Tara in relationships with other people, and that's great, but the reason this is pretty much the only fanfic site I visit is because I'm guaranteed not to run into any of those other relationships. Obviously, I'm happy for them to be in other relationships at the beginning of a story, or for previous relationships to be discussed within the realm of the story, but why would I visit The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe if I wanted to see Tara with Faith or Buffy etc. (shudder). Hell, I'm even open to them being attracted to other characters - it's a very interesting aspect of human nature after all - but I don't want to read about them acting on it.

Sorry if that all sounds a bit ranty; it's obviously not aimed at anyone inparticular, I just really would hate to see this safe haven diluted in any way.

Xita, as you say, "it's been a long time and we're still here," and not only are we still here but the writers on this board are still producing wonderful fics on a very regular basis. I reckon there's a very good reason for that, and I hope we manage to keep the ethos of this board alive so that we remain here, writing and reading quality W/T fics, for a very long time to come.

I would like to add a belated, though no less heartfelt, thanks to Xita and all the mods for tending the board; and to the writers and readers for feeding my addiction.

Willow & Tara forever
foreverchanges (oh, the irony ) :wtkiss

Peace out

Alex_Vixen · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:14 am

Hey, I just wanted to say that I agree with what most had said.

This is a W/T Board. If I wanted to read W/T with somebody else, I would go to other sites, not to this one.

I do agree with foreverchanges that an "ex" could...appear in the story mentioned or appear somehow.... After all, we cant expect them to ALWAYS be the other's first, right?

Quote:

Obviously, I'm happy for them to be in other relationships at the beginning of a story, or for previous relationships to be discussed within the realm of the story, but why would I visit The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe if I wanted to see Tara with Faith or Buffy etc

This is what I meant... I thought about it and I vote NO. I know I usually use two or three couples in my fics, I know that, its easier and funnier to write that way...But this is a W/T Board, NOT a W/T/Other Board.

And I have the feeling that if you let them....well....sooon we will have Willow and Tara....making a threesome with Xander (like I saw there was one in another site. That was a HUGE EWWWW).

Quote:

A seperate forum (not pens!) for what is currently known as off-topic posts is maybe an idea if that's what people really want, but this is a Willow/Tara fansite.

Not a Willow/Tara/Other fansite

If you DO a Forum, like Laragh said...I wont mind, I wont go there anyway. But THIS IS a W/T fansite...

I just thought that I should show my agreement...

PS: By the way...I have to say that I agree with DaddyCatALSO The "dead president" has appear in MORE than ONE fic.. I dont really care because I usually dont read those fics, I just avoid them. I dont care about her. But what bothers me a bit is that the rules had been broken. I think that if it was allowed that she can show up, okay, thats cool. But it is NOT allowed....so WHY do some authors insist in putting her in their fics... And some of those still are in the Board. I just think that we ALL should respect the rules.

I know that some may think not having the DP (dead president) if they are making a Season 7 version is kinda lame....she may be there just to be an annoying brat. And yeah, some may think its not fair.... but those are the rules. We HAVE to respect the rules that make this Board to be what it is today, a place where we can find W/T fictions without running into...other characters that we DO NOT like. There are just SOO MANY posibilities that doesnt need the DP or them having another relationships...

I just think that we ALL should think if we want our beloved Board to become what it would if the rules are changed.

vampyregurl73 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:25 am

Here's my two cents as a newbie both to the board and posting.

One of the things I love about this board is that it is Willow/Tara-centric. That it all has to boil down to them and their relationship. BUT with that said, out and out banning of characters/seasons that could be used for plot formation, furthering the storyline and motivation I think is limiting.

Yes, I dislike JFK immensley, but it's the "must eliminate" entirely of characters and potential plot lines by not allowing anything after Seeing Red I don't get.

I also think having an "ex' appearing but in no way romantically, could be a good plot tool. To say Tara's past (even a made up one) can't be used in any capacity would be like saying Oz can never be mentioned again because he is pre-Tara. I don't think any of us would ever get them back together (ewww) but he's a part of her past that could be used for a dramatic effect of some sort, and even to strengthen their bonds.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, not sure.

I agree the girls should be the main focus, that's what this is board is for. No other oddball pairings. As is the rule that they be alive and together, no matter how they get there or what yo-yo-ing they do along the way to get to that end. I just don't necessarily agree with the extent of the character censoring when it's not conflicting with the ultimate goal - Willow & Tara together. Speed bumps can be interesting but it doesn't change the destination of the ride.

Will all stories that have Ken.. or a fictitious "ex" appear be removed? I know we don't have actual basis in the show for previous relationships for Tara, but she had to figure it out some way, right? Even with the nature of her family life, at some point she probably kissed a girl, or fooled around with one before Willow. Ruling that out seems odd to me, and again creatively limiting when you want to write a story that is Willow/Tara-centric. This means you can have no back story for Tara, she just woke up gay and never acted on it until she got away to college. Plausibility issues, I guess.

I think as long as the principal rule of W/T being together, alive ( I can think of The Sidestep Chronicles where Willow is Vamp Willow for the majority of the first half, so she is technically dead) and in a relationship is honored, extraneous characters, seasons, etc. should be allowed for dramatic license.

And there you have my two cents.

BuffyFan4ever · **Joined:** Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:43 am **Posts:** 434

I think one of the reasons I'm open to changing it is because this is the only place I know that has discussions rather than just stories. Maybe you can create a thread where people can discuss and recommend, but not post, other stories they have either written or read. Authors can either put links to where to find the stories or ask for PMs. This can allow those who like other stories to share them, without defeating the main purpose of the actual site.

Like everyone else, I stay no matter what you decide. W/T are still my favorite pairing.

On a related matter, does anyone know of any Buffy fanfic discussion boards like this one? The BtVS Writer's Guild just has a bunch of links. Maybe if I could find one I wouldn't care as much if this one changes.

Laragh · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:54 am

Okay, triple post, and I again do apologise, but after reading some of the other comments I just wanted to add...

My interpretation of the FAQ as it stands (and I may be completely wrong, if so, ignore this lol) is that mentions of past relationships are fine to be included, or exes showing up in stories, as long as neither Willow nor Tara are in a relationship with them at that time.

I don't think there's any rule saying the girls can't have a past (whether the writer chooses to include it in their fic or not), just that the present(or build-up to a)/future relationship displayed is Willow/Tara.

That's just how I always viewed it anyway...

Midnight341 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:18 am

So i agree with those say that it should stay a Willow/Tara centric site...it is really not a big deal to have to go to another site to post your fic if it doesn't fall within the boundaries of the FAQ...again i think Foo is right saying that the people are probably looking for the feedback esque atmosphere but if you have dedicated readers of your fics tell them to check out that other site for more of your stuff or something like that...infact you might get more readers by going to another site and posting there as well as here...so i would say NO to changing the rules on the FAQ.

Taralover · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:20 am

I like the idea of changing it, there can be much more fic variety.

pipsberg · **Joined:** Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:02 pm **Posts:** 427

Hey all, I'll come out of lurkville for a moment to comment since I feel strongly about this topic. I like the FAQ just as is and agree with Foo that those that violate it probably were not aware or didn't take the time to become aware. The focus on W/T only is what drew me to this board, and has kept me coming back over the years.

I also agree with several of the other posters in this thread that mentioned how certain authors have been able to be creative in flirtations, angst and past relationships to build tension without violating the FAQ (I myself have done this).

Thanks for the open forum Xita.

Morrigan · **Joined:** Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:17 pm **Posts:** 181

As far as opening the board to other 'ships, I really don't have much of an opinion either way.

I would love some clarification as to how far depictions of PAST relationships for our girls can go - Not that I have any desire to write explicit scenes between either of our girls and a past lover, but there are a few things i have in mind where flashback scenes of both good and bad times with past lovers could very much enhance the story. When I read the FAQ, I wasn't sure exactly where that line was. Granted, over the months of reading stories here on the board, the practical rule has become more clear.

What I really appreciate about this discussion, and the real reason I wanted to comment? Thank you, Xita, for giving those of us who are new a voice in this. Whether the ultimate decision is to change or stay pat matters less to me than the fact that this community is willing to give all members space to be heard, regardless of 'time in residence' as it were.

Carry on!

Zampsa1975 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:33 am

My two cents on the subject:

I like to keep Kittenboard W/T centric. If I want to read W/T with others I go to other sites. But I'm not against Willow or Tara being in a relationship with others before or during the story as long as they are together in the end without 3-some thingies during or in the end of the story. The story has to be about the love between Willow & Tara and how they find happyness together. Good examples are JustSkipIt's Love Come To Long Licks & Years stories...

I think the ban of NC-17 W/T/O scenes should be in effect.

As for JFK ban, I think it's outdated and has been liberally broken many times.

EasierSaid · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:36 am

I vote no. I agree with Foo that the charm of this site is that it's W/T and W/T only. If I want to see them with other people there are many, many other sites that host those fics. W/T-only is why I was first inspired to write and post Neverland, and why I keep coming back to Pens six years later.

While I agree with the point of 'if I don't like W/T/Other I just won't read it,' what happens if it is inserted down the line? How many writers on this site start a story without a concrete plot, ending in mind, etc.? I'd bet a lot. I can just envision a scenario where a writer writes themselves into a corner and thinks, 'um, crap. Oh I know, I'll create angst/drama etc. by having Tara date someone else!' How many people on the board would be happy if all the sudden Tara and Morgan start hooking up in Neverland, 50+ updates in? I know I would be pissed to have invested that much time only to see the story take such a hard turn. I think one of the reasons why people enjoy Neverland, and the vast, vast majority of the stories here, is because we know that the girls are going to be together and there isn't going to be a true third party involved. Flirtations, exs, etc. yes, I think that's all wonderful, but I really don't want to read about Willow taking flowers and chocolate to some chick from her computer class. (And for me, I wouldn't want to read stories where Willow post-Tara is bi.)

I think you can argue that it opens up creativity to have different scenarios, but I'd argue the narrow FAQ enhances creativity. It's more of a challenge. An 'other' (and how 'Lost' does that feel to write), is such an easy plot device. Angst! Oh noes! I'd so much rather read a story where it's not as easy or trite to keep the girls apart.

xita, if you do decide to run with a change, I'd hope you consider creating a different forum than Pens to host those stories. Let Pens stay as is, and let those who want to see W/T with others have their own corner of the Kitten. Thanks for letting me put in my two cents! (And thanks again xita for the wonderfulness that is this corner of the interwebz. I continue to be truly grateful for it's continued existence.)

angieb86 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:37 am

I pretty much agree with what has been said, too.

I had a story pulled off the site a few weeks ago by Foo. It was explained to me why and the FAQ was sited in the message, even though I did read those before I posted.

In my fic Willow had a girlfriend, but it was pulled two chapters before they broke up.

I totally understood why it was pulled. I understand the FAQ; I guess I just misinterpreted the FAQ when it said that there could be angst but W/T HAD to end up happy, alive and together in the end. Willow having a girlfriend for the first several chapters was part of the angst in my story. It just sucks that I couldn't resolve that conflict before the story was taken off the site. But I still understood why it had to go.

And I was definitely NOT one of those people who complained about the rules of the board. The rules ARE here for a reason. And Foo is doing a great job in making sure those rules are followed.

I know that I could post my fic on another site, but the truth is I would rather post it here on the KB. I can come to this site and read all about my favorite lesbians. That's why I love this place so much.

And I seriously hope that I DO NOT read anything about W/T and Xander on this site...*retching noises*

I do believe that the rules of this board are great the way they are. And that's coming from someone who had a story pulled from the KB.

BeMyDeputy · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:53 am

I may be reading this wrong. My understanding is that the proposed rule change would allow the inclusion of Willow or Tara involved with someone else, but that the focus of the story must be Willow and Tara together.

The way I read this, it would allow, for example, rewritings of season eight that include Willow rebounding (with anyone but JFK) before Tara returns (via whatever means). Or stories that just have Tara never come back in Entropy that include either or both of them see someone else before they get back together.

Furthermore, while the fact that they are involved with someone else is permissible, the rules would still prohibit any graphic description of said involvement.

IF that is the correct reading of the rule change, then I'm totally in favor. However, I could be wrong. Even if I'm right, I think we should workshop the phrasing. If people aren't reading the FAQs as is, it's hard to expect people to carefully read, it's hard to expect them to understand nuance. If I come up with anything incredibly clever, I'll post it.

Foomatic · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 am

I agree with Laragh. The FAQ only states that W/T cannot be in a current relationship with another person. There have been numerous fics where an ex is mentioned (including Oz), and authors have taken the liberty of creating a past for Tara that suits their fic. All this is fair game as long as they don't in any way, shape or form end up with their exes.

RE: K ennedy, I think that if we were to change anything about the FAQ, this would be it. We are allowed to incorporate things that are post Seeing Red, and I think K ennedy should be allowed provided that she is not with Willow and she remains an ex. She should get the same treatment as Oz, a mention here and there, even pop up in a fic, but never referenced as being in a current relationship with Willow.

Some of you have mentioned the appearance of K ennedy in some fics. For that, I apologize. There was a period of time where Pens was unmoderated and some fics slipped through the cracks. Dia and I came on board because of this, and have been trying our best to keep up with the fics in Pens in order to maintain the consistency of the fics that are posted.

Re: sub-forums, if we are going to do that you might as well just allow W/T/O in Pens. It does not make sense to creat a new place for fic when we already have one. Again, I am firmly against this, because there are other places that allow that type of fic.

Laragh · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:08 am

Personally, I appreciate the no-JFK rule, but hey, it's not like every fic would include her, so if she was in it, I'd just skip, so I wouldn't mind if the majority felt like that rule needed to be eradicated...

Laragh · **Posted:** Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:36 am

Okay, I want to preface this by saying I greatly apprecaite how Xita opened this up for discussion and how our input is being considered in this decision.

I've decided to make the personal decision to put my story 'Hacker Confidential' on hiatus until the final decision re:board changes has been made. I will continue to write it and if the board changes don't go ahead, I'll post anything that would've been posted as per my schedule in one sitting and continue on as normal and if the changes are introduced, I'll move my writing to another site where any of my readers can choose to continue reading it or not as I wouldn't feel I'd be able to support this site as anything other than a strictly W/T board.

I want to make it very, very clear that this is not a personal attack on this board, any of the moderators, any kittens and is not anything but my way of showing my non-support for the proposed chages.

I really hope this doesn't offend anyone and that the discussion continues until matters have been decided!

The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe - Willow & Tara Forever

Considering Changes to the FAQ

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