Hey all, I just feel like I need to emphasize I really, really wouldn't be okay with this change, particularly anything to do with W/T being in current hetero relationships. I think that would be completely outside the spirit of this forum. I feel the same about threesomes. The point of this place is to celebrate universes where W/T can be together. Their devotion should be absolute and to the exclusion of any other distractions. I completely understand (though I am heartbroken to hear it) Laragh's decision to delay posts on Hacker until this is resolved.

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Wave ... The Wish of Three Hearts
The Yuletide Present ... In From the Cold

"We're in love. We're lovers. We're lesbian, gay-type lovers."

I just wanted to say that I agree with Laragh. I appreciate how Xita you decided to talk about this with us....

But I add myself to the decision of putting my story "Fire and Life" on hiatus until the final decision. And if the changes are introduce, well, I will move my writing as well to another site. I wont be able to keep supporting this site if the changes are introduced.

Please, as Laragh said, this isnt an attack to the Board or anybody else... It's just a way of showing the non-support for the changes.

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Surprises and Secrets | Open my Eyes | Fire and Life | Family | | What a beautiful family
Sailor Senshi Light and Sun

I am with lonelytara in saying that this change would come as a very sad move on the part of the board...i do appreciate as has been said that xita you have taken it to the opinions and wants of the board members thats really great...i also support both laragh and alex in their hiatuses from their stories till this is decided.

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Love is not something you can buy or something you can have forever but while you do have it make it last together.

Well, suck

...the only part of the FAQ I don't like is the JFK ban (as long as she's not a threat - which of course she's not- she's just an annoying side character...) If you don't like her - don't read it... I'm working on a season 7 AU where she's present and has a crush on Willow and is a pain in Buffy's ass and that's it...she has no other influence on the story...

I don't really care about the W/T/Others things, but I agree there are other places to read that... I'll vote 'No' just to keep Laragh around though...

Thanks for letting us discuss this...

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Ripples - Pretty Much Perfect and The Sequel to the Sequel, Who's That Girl?
Every Step That I Retrace/Always Leads Me Back to You/But I've Loved You All Along
Road to Recovery, The Call/The Lightning Strike, The Sun Will Rise

We come here and read these stories because we love the W/T relationship, i don't want to see them in any other relationship. This board and these stories are to celebrate a TV relationship that captivated us for almost 2 years. Regarding JFK i have no problem with her being in any fanfic, especially if it is a re-writing of series 7, as long as it doesn't involve any romance between her and Willow. Laragh and Alex i support you both in your decisions to not continue your stories until this is resolved.

I hope the NO side wins so that Laragh & Alex can keep their great stories on this great board.

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We few, we happy few. We band of buggered.

Posting While Nude Improves Your Mood.

I really must go along with those who are asking for NO changes to the FAQ. There are so many other websites carrying Buffyverse fanfic, but I only visit them when things are slow on the Kitten Board. The dynamics between Willow and Tara are so satisfying, and provide such scope for various Kittenish plots, that I don't see the need to expand the terms of this board.

Thanks, though, for keeping the board fresh through constant-improvement ideas like this. Speaking as a quality engineer, I applaud your approach; speaking as a kitten, I just applaud you.

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Latecomer to the party

Obviously based on everyone's reaction this site won't change as far as fic rules. I can see their point and I'd hate for people to leave. The point of this site is to bring people together, not make them feel unwelcome. I also understand and agree with their point about there being other site where these stories can be found and this should stay a W/T site.

However, none of the other sites involve discussions like this one does. I was wondering what everyone would think of creating a thread, maybe on the board's main page so that it doesn't interfere with the W/T fics, so that the few people who want to can discuss and recommend stories. There wouldn't be any stories posted, but people can give links or ask for PMs. People would have to clearly state what pairings, if any are involved. Does anyone else think this is a reasonable compromise? If that seems too much, I'll drop my request and nothing will change as far as my reading. If anyone knows of a general BtVS fan fic discussion board, I will happily forget all about changing this site.

Again, I'd much rather keep everything the same than loose members, but I think this is a way for people to please everyone while not changing the overall purpose of the board. If anyone knows of a general BtVS fan fic discussion board, I will happily forget all about changing this site.

Soem sort of Dsicussion thread sounds good; plus, I think I may have been reading a few of these vanished stories and I'd like to know where they might be continuing :-).

If I ever get around to doing "Snapshots," for compelteness's sake there is one chapter which J F K appears in, and they don'
t actually break up, just rehearse their future break-up, but it's what kicks off Willow's search for Tara at the younger woman's suggestion,too. I can of course leave it out.

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Snapshots:http://thekittenboard.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10210 a Love Story
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Kim: (breaks off the kissing) I l... (Sue stops her with a hand)
Sue: We don't talk about things like that right after, you know that, no saying those things in The Moment.
Kim: (moves the hand aside) Screw The Moment. I *love* you.

The idea of an off-topic discussion thread, with locations for fics that have been exiled, has a lot of appeal. Would just serve to enhance the experience for many kittens, plus help us keep tabs on developments elsewhere.

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Latecomer to the party

Alrighty so I'm gonna say go for it, but it has to be clear on the rules of it. I don't want it to be so strict about the JFK character. I think its a great character, but shouldn't be involved with Willow. I would say allow it, just make sure the rules are very clear that this is a W/Tcentric board, and it has to end with the two of them, only. You can delve farther into the pasts or a split, but the same as always rule should apply. When the fic ends, they are together, the two of them. Thats why this board was created, and thats the way it should stay.

writerfreak

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Nuair a feallionn na focail, labhraionn an ceol (translation: When words fail, music speaks)
Ever meet a dangerous woman? One you know sees right through you? Dangerously attractive, effortlessly intelligent, quietly intense?

Soul

I voted no on the poll. I don't have strong feelings regarding whether the JFK restriction should be lifted. Other that that, I like the focus of W/T and only W/T here. I think there's quite a bit of freedom in the fact that they can discuss attractions or past relationships but beyond that... I'm not interested in reading. I also like knowing that when I start reading a fic here, I'm not going to stumble into some W/B or (worse yet) T/B stuff. I like the safety of knowing what I'll find when I start reading. If the decision is made to start another forum that allows W/Other or T/Other, I wouldn't protest or pull my fics or anything but I can't imagine I'd read much there either.

Xita - thanks for the poll and always thanks for this board.

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Menorah Tales | Working It Out | Random Bits

One day I started reading a story on Pens and I totally dug it. I read all that was posted here but then couldn't figure out why on the last page the author had posted a link to another site, saying the story was continued there. So I clicked the link and continued reading and then realised the rabbit hole I'd tumbled down. Halfway through the story, there was Other action, and it made me like, irrationally angry, like 'hulk smash!' angry. I had to eat a minimum of 12 cookies and write a forever drafted blog post about it before I calmed down. I learnt my lesson. Me and W/O or T/O just do not mix. My stance is firmly WT4EVA<3<3<3, which means a big no on FAQ-changing from me.

As it stands, in my opinion at least, there's plenty of room for creativity in terms of incorporating 'other' characters in a non-explicit way, and those who have done this have done so masterfully. Foo mentioned the example of Ayako in Alcy's Van Rosenberg and I'd like to further that by pointing to the beautiful short fic JustSkipIt posted a little while ago, Years.

This site is a wonderful testament to the greatness of its contributors and the greatness of the love between these characters in that even after ten years of writing with the same basic premise, stories manage to continue to be interesting, engaging and, to be frank (hi Frank!) all I want to read most of the time. This is because on Pens, my little, pathetically romantic heart is guaranteed a kind of safety that it isn't anywhere else in this mean, mean world. In the words of someone who would say something like this, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Thanks for this poll though Xita, it is obviously something that needed be discussed and being given the opportunity to do so is something I think everyone here appreciates greatly.

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Blogness

I am grateful for all the feedback. I really didn't want to seem out of touch. I know that there was a certain amount of anger after certain events on the show and now that the anger has passed, I wanted to make sure that the rules we developed were still appropriate. I know that they developed because of the kinds of fics that were posted early on and we realized that without guidelines there would certainly not be an end to the kinds of fics that were posted on here.

To clarify, yes my suggestion was to allow w/t other but not depicted in any graphic sexual love scene. And that it could not be a significant relationship on any fic.

The way this is looking, I won't be making any changes to the FAQ. Too many NOs and way too many old time kittens against it. I always weigh my OG kittens' opinion very highly. We all went through a lot on this board. I'll leave the discussion open for now, but it would have taken a really one sided yes vote for me to change what I essentially agree with.

The Ken... issue is an interesting one. I might make a different poll on this one.

In so far as the idea that we have a thread for non w/t fic recommendations, I am not against this. It could either be in the kitten, or The Litterbox, which I am completely open to renaming. It's already the place for anything Buffy so a thread to recommend fic would fit in there.

Thanks for the great discussion.

And foomatic and Willowtree252 have been great additions as moderators. I really want to thank them for stepping up and volunteering to help me out since I can't spend the time I used to here.

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moliendo café

Wow... very heated comments here. Well, that's fine by me. My previous suggestion was just that..., a suggestion. I agree with some though. The fact is the strictly "W/T" rule was the bait that successfully hooked my interest with kittenboard.

From reading lots of fic in W/T homeland of fics (a.k.a kittenboard), I found lots of resentment towards JFK from many kittens. I can understand kittens' feeling, because I my main interest is too with the W/T goodness. This happens when I read a W/T/K and in the and T died leaving JFK. I mean, whoa, I didn't expect that and I got disappointed. Perhaps because I expect W/T will still be there in the end even with K lurking with them.

About W/T with men? I don't think so. I think with my preference of femslash fics, it won't happen anytime soon. Perhaps a little Harry/Hermione in HP with lots and lots of respect and good things by Hermione. But I'm rambling here. Well, just sharing.

If you want W/T, then come to kittenboard. But if you want others, then please with all due respect, look for other sites. I think I got that message after all that have been said in this discussion.

I am another newbie and I love the KB just the way it is.

I think that the FAQ help create the strong sense of community here. Without them the KB might well lose its unique character. The amount of creative variety on this board amazes me. I'm grateful to all the writers and to the moderators.

If it ain't broke....

Please don't change this board... it is like a haven of WT goodness... the idea of either of the girls with someone else makes my stomach go acid-y.

p.s. I have no problem with the girls having a history but nothing current please..

oh wow..I only missed 1day to open this board and I surely missed a lot
Thanks to Xita for won't be making any changes to the FAQ and to others who struggle to keep the FAQ as it already is..
I really really love W/T..but I don't mind if there's W/O or T/O in the past..I would just skip it or be patient until the story gets to W/T centric

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RC

"I'm not apologizing for what I did, I'm apologizing for what I didn't do" ~ Violet, Bound

I think it's been established that the FAQs won't change drastically. I really have no problem with Ken as long as W/T get together. Personally, I think she would make a decent slayer, and she's always a good excuse for angst when Tara returns post season 6. Maybe authors would have to mention if K ennedy is included


Can we now debate a pure discussion thread?

I didn't even know about 'The Litterbox' until Xita mentioned it (I wonder how many kittens do. No pun intended ). I think that's the perfect place to talk about these fics. Xita already said that it's a place to talk about Buffy and not just W/T. It's out of the way, so those who don't want to read it don't have to. There would also be guide lines about no actual fics being posted. Does anyone have a strong opinion about this?

Wow.

A Kitten gets a little busy and I miss this awesome conversation. That kinda sucks.

Anyway.... I'm thrilled that the KB is staying just the way it always was. I, too have read some T/O and W/O and I'm just not into it. I love that the KB isn't littered (ha!) with that kind of story. I also have to agree with whomever it was earlier that said that the limitations of this board make for a challenging story to write. I've always found that to be true, and maybe strayed and got away from it once or twice, but that's a different conversation for a different place.

Anyway, again.... Thanks to xita for giving us a place to play.

Diane

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The dlline Short Fic Thread

I've been following this all day on my RSS feed, but only now able to log in and reply. I'm very relieved at the NO decision. To allow W/O, T/O or W/T/O would have been far too broad and would have diluted this spirit of this board. It'd be impossible to moderate. Where to draw the line? Buffyverse only? Females only? What about real people? Cartoon characters? I would have hated to come to Pens and click on a fic only to find it's Willow/Justin Bieber *shudder*. Or clicking through the entire front page finding it overrun with these "O" fics.

I want to reiterate Foo's comments on the previous page:

If you can't take 3 minutes to read the FAQ, you should grovel and apologize to Foo for wasting her time to have to clean up your mess. The reason I've essentially stopped coming to Pens, and have no plans to post another story here in the near future, is I felt a sort of "scope creep" happening. People were posting fics without reading, or worse, without respecting the FAQs. No, you are not that special, your fic isn't that brilliant, that the rules don't apply to you. Read that stickied post before even thinking about writing a fic. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. Hopefully i fall into Xita's "old-timers" category and you youngsters can roll your eyes at this old fogey who refuses to change and channels Anya level of bluntness.

As for K, I actually like her as a character and if we were to relax the rules we may have some quality fics that gives us a better season 7. However, the rules on the KB has always been nothing beyond SR, and no K; therefore I've come to expect it and find comfort in it. It's a bit like going into a McDonald's and knowing what to expect, and if all of a sudden one day they started selling...dim sum, there's nothing wrong with it, but the feeling would be, "this change is a bit weird, what next?" I look forward to a discussion on the topic.

[br]

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quiet thoughts

I've been doing the RSS Thing too and only just been able to log in. I'm not a writer, but I am a reader, and I like knowing more-or-less what I'm getting when I start reading a fic here. I'm therefore pleased that the FAQ are going to be staying the way they are.

I also like sampling something a little different on occasion though, and would love a recommendation thread somewhere. I rate Kitten's opinions highly and would be delighted to be pointed in the direction of the good bits of the internet, rather than the crappy bits!

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"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from." - Jodie Foster

What an entirely awesome topic, and how ridiculously gratifying to see so many big, big NO votes. Because, really, I love Pens because it's all W/T all the time. Sure, I'm not around as often as I'd like (my diabolical plan to win the lottery and do nothing but write fic has, sadly, not panned out), but this is still my favorite corner of the internet.

That said, there >are< some gray areas in the FAQ as written: at what point does a fic have an undeniable and unallowed W/O or T/O component, and at what point is it simply a kind of ... danger of W/O or T/O adding to angst, which would be allowed? Where's the line?

I'm working off of memory, but as I recall, the FAQ does say "when in doubt, ask a mod". If we fic writers aren't sure if our fic idea violates this portion of the FAQ or not, we can always ask. The mods are busy with real life and doing mod stuff, so they might not respond right away, but in my experience they're always really nice about answering questions ... and it's really better to ask than to get your fic yanked. Saves time for everyone.

Well, it looks like the results are in, and I must say, I'm very disappointed.

First of all; why were people assuming that just because Willow or Tara would be allowed to be with another person, that it would automatically relieve the rule wherein they must be together at the end of the story? If they still MUST be together in the end, then you still know what it is you're going to get - a KittenBoard Happy Ending ®. Having someone else in there just spices things up a bit. I don't see it detracting from the board at all, but adding to it.

I'd also like to point out that, given how many kittens are opposed to Willow and/or Tara with someone else, it's unlikely that we would get a flood of fics featuring Willow with, say, Faith (cause we all know she swings both ways...), and give the Willow/Tara relationship five minutes of lip-service at the end.

If we simply instituted a new rule in it's place, wherein you MUST post any and all pairings at the beginning of your fic (which most authors do anyway), I'm pretty sure that would be sufficient to allow anyone who did not want to read Willow or Tara with anyone else at any point - which seems a little extreme to me, but to each their own - to avoid such fics.

As someone who's spent a lot of time in debate forums, I see a lot of logical fallacies in the arguments here - mainly the Slippery Slope Theory. It's the assumption that if we change any small thing, the entire board will go down the drain as far as quality is concerned. If we allow Willow and Tara to dabble in a relationship with someone else, it must then be true that we will have fics wherein Willow and Tara will wind up with someone else in the end, someone else will fill the 'true love' role, or we'll have them paired up in absolutely ridiculous ways, i.e. Willow and Justin Bieber, as watty mentioned. Now, I'm not saying I want to read a Willow/Justin Bieber fic. Joss forbid. I just don't think it's likely that the one tiny change would result in the total implosion of the board, reducing it to fanfiction.net-like quality.

It's like you guys are afraid of it, or something. I'm secure enough in Willow and Tara's relationship to believe that they can take it.

But I suppose none of this really matters anymore anyway. The decision is made, the rules won't change, and we'll not get a chance to throw that particular wrench into the works. I'm disappointed, especially since this seems to have been decided quickly based on knee-jerk reactions (but perhaps that's just my outside opinion on it), but it's nothing to leave the board over...

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Don't you sit upon the shoreline and say you're satisfied, choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides - Garth Brooks, "the River"

You've been here long enough to know that I am not swayed by threats. Many people have taken their toys and played somewhere else because I would not change our rules. I still believe in the spirit of our FAQ, the entire point here was to weigh in on the feelings of people, to see if I was out of touch. It only reinforced what I already believed in. The discussion is still open because I think it's interesting. This was never about what is right or wrong or what is fair. It was about what people want the kitten and pens to be. It seems like maybe part of the reason this is still going is because of what it stands for. I am kinda happy and proud of that.

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moliendo café

Like xita, I'm thrilled that so many people still believe in the spirit in our FAQ. When I go to a friend's house and they ask me to take my shoes off, I do. I might not want to, but I'm a guest and I want to be there so I do as requested. Personally, I don't understand the fervor for allowing W/T/O and disappointment that things are going to stay the same. There are literally dozens of sites on the internet that allow W/T/O. What are you not finding on those sites that you think you'll find here if it's allowed? Why not just go to where it is allowed? Why not appreciate that this is a unique community based on W/T together, not just together when the story ends? I mean, I don't go to Neko Case concerts and get all pissed off because she didn't play New Pornographer songs.

Re: put the pairings in the beginning of the story - some people are not that together when they write. Maybe they should be, but some aren't. I know I wasn't. I thought Neverland was going to be three or four parts long, and I had no idea any of the original characters were going to be featured; they simply didn't exist when I posted my first part. Things evolve, and that's the great part of this place as a writer's community. I guarantee if W/T/O was allowed there would be at least a half-dozen stories that inserted W/O or T/O after the story was underway. Especially people who wanted to keep it as a surprise or twist. "And in Part 12, Willow falls into Amy's arms, despondent that Tara won't take her back! Oh noes!"

And I'm sorry, but even if the no-NC-17 rule was in place for W/T/O - do you know how many stories I've read that were never rated NC-17 yet featured copious amounts of well-described sex and almost-sex? NC-17, R ratings - so much of that is subjective and in the eye of the writer. So then mods have to read sex scenes and start determining whether W/O or T/O sex scenes are NC-17 or not? What's too graphic? I'm pretty sure mods have better things to do with their time.

It's my preference to read Willow with Tara and Tara with Willow only, and I love that I know that when I click on a story on Pens I'm not going to have to read about Willow kissing Xander or Tara being felt up by unnamed-original character. If I wanted to read something else, I'd go find it elsewhere. In my opinion, Pens is the strong, vibrant community it is because of the rules, not in spite of them.

Naeryn, you do have a point. Changing this piece of the FAQ would not cause cats and dogs living together and mass hysteria. We would not, in all likelihood, be inundated with a flood of W/O and T/O fics where W/T don't end up together, or they only end up together at the very end where the majority of the fic is W/O or T/O or W/T/O doing it in a variety of ways in a variety of places with varying degrees of intensity - because the suggested change would still disallow this kind of fic, as you said.

So I can't disagree with your overall point.

But - I do feel that it's likely that change from a hard-and-fast rule (no W/O or T/O) to something that is more akin to a guideline (W/O or T/O are okay sometimes, but not other times) is far too much of a gray area.

To me, the real question is, from a purely practical standpoint, is this: how do we allow fic that adheres to the spirit of the Kittenboard but still has a W/O or T/O component, while disallowing fic that has a W/O or T/O component that does not adhere to the spirit of the Kittenboard?

So there are three options: disallow entirely, moderator's judgement, or author's judgement. The proposed change in the FAQ moves from "disallow entirely" to "author's judgement". To me, that moves the rule from the least problematic to the most problematic. Even with "disallow entirely" being the current rule, the mods have to yank fics that don't adhere to it. Shifting to "author's judgement" can only exacerbate this problem because it makes the rule more of a gray area, and it will make more work for the mods, even if there isn't an apocalyptic landslide of W/O and T/O fics.

To me, moderator's judgement is the only way to make this work: if your fic has a W/O or T/O component, submit a synopsis of the entire story to the mods to pre-approve. Which is, still, more work for the moderators. Who are volunteers. With real lives.

Now, it would be easy to interpret what I've written so far as basically meaning that I am a mean jerk who doesn't trust the judgement of individual authors. That would be entirely correct. But, in all fairness, I'm including myself in that group of author's whose judgement I do not trust in this respect. I had a fic idea many, many years ago, that involved Tara leaving town after Tabula Rasa and coming back to Sunnydale for Dawn's High School graduation to find that Willow was dating a demon that would, when they finally did the nasty, eat Willow's soul - and only Anya knew it was a demon, and no one believed her, and they all thought Tara was being a jealous shrew when she pointed out that, yes, Willow's girlfriend is totally a demon who wants to eat her soul.

Does that violate the spirit of the Kittenboard? In my opinion, no, because it's not a real relationship so much as a trap, and Willow and the new girlfriend aren't sleeping together. Should my judgement on that point, and my judgement alone, be all that's required to just start posting? No. No, no, and no some more. If I wanted to post something like that, I should have to get moderator approval beforehand. Would I want the volunteer moderators to have that much extra work? Not just no, but Hell No.

My vote stands for "disallow", even if I think that my own rule-violating fic would be totally awesome (I'm arrogant like that).

-Sass

Yeah it would!!!1!!eleven!! (You be arrogant and I'll be blind faith fangirl. )

I really want to read that story! Sounds like fun.

Please return to your hearty debate. It's fun to watch.

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The dlline Short Fic Thread

One more thing on this topic... well, not really even on this topic. I'm taking it off road! I have to thank all of you for posting in this thread, new and old-timers alike... I haven't had the time or bandwidth to read and post much here in many years, but the debate has rejuvinated the spirit of the board and has made me want to read, post and... even write!

Ok, that was really cheesy, but I feel cheesy for the board right now so there you go! Or, it could be hormones.

I the Board

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-pipsberg

"We live our lives, do whatever we do, and then we sleep - it's as simple and ordinary as that."
Michael Cunningham, The Hours