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 Post subject: Re: So ya wanna post some fan fic...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Ms. Moderator Fantastico
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Bumping this thread from the depth of Pens.

For all you newbies out there just starting out with your fics, or for anyone thinking of posting a new fic, here is a very helpful thread for the writing and posting process here in Pens. Please give it a looksie!

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Aw crud...

I suspect that you just meant this as a subtle hint, but I'm addressing it as I read it.

I see myself as one of the evil people who are ignoring proper process. It even says so in very clear language at the start of my fic (Changes, I mean): un-beta'd and largely unedited. Why did I do this? Why would I voluntarily attach my name to something that is so obviously a work in progress?

Because I used to have the story in the thread dedicated to works similar to mine and I ended up taking up so many posts that it made reading the thread for anyone else's work unmanageable. It was a disservice to them, and I had been advised by several readers that I needed to just post as my own fic thread. I bowed to the wishes of my audience.

My counter to "only posting if you polish your work"- a quote that I have come to live by... "Anything worth doing is worth doing badly"- Chuck Jones, animator of Bugs Bunny. Think about it. If you are like me, the product will never be good enough to be called Finished. At some point, though, you have to let go, because it is worth leaving it imperfect in order to share it. A story left untold dies with you, and that is a crying shame when it occurs. Sometimes starting to post is the only way to keep up the enthusiasm to finish a story- I doubt that my favorite fic (Sidestep Chronicle, by Katharyn- I like the first 800,000 words best) would have been completed if not for being posted during the process of its writing. I can tell you for an absolute fact that if I were treating Changes as a polished piece, I would stop writing it... and then, because I despise unfinished fic, I would take down everything that is posted. At least 3 people would be upset by this. ^_^;

Does this mean I condone posting drek? No. I would hope that everyone has enough sense of pride that they would do what they had to in order to ensure readability. We may write under pseudonyms, but I want my pseudonym to mean something other than "oh, what she writes won't be worth my time". Write what you'd want to read, to the best of your ability. Then let it go free.

One reason that this post may have been bumped is that a large portion of new BtVS viewers, and therefor the most active reader/writership, are now in non-English speaking countries or in the next (younger) generation. There is a much steeper learning curve to traverse and it shows. Can you blame them from wanting to be a part of a fanfic board that is head and shoulders above any other I have yet to see? That's why I'm here. Does this mean that writing quality has dropped since the initial 3 years of the board? Yes, but there's not much you can do about it unless you are willing to go beyond beta-ing and teach. Some of that teaching is in threads like these- kudos to those who wrote the bulk of the material. Hopefully we'll all learn something.


Just my thoughts, meandering as usual- take them for what they're worth.
-Never


PS- coincidentally, I was going to do a "process post" in my next Reply round on Changes, covering the topic of not editing and how much it hurts me to take that route.

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:45 pm 
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Hey NC,

In response to your post, the reason why I bumped this thread and made it a sticky is to give people - especially those new to the board - a frame of reference when posting a new fic in Pens. Mostly, I just wanted to reiterate the importance of reading the Pens FAQ before posting a story. I've had to pull a few fics recently that did not meet the requirements, which is a shame, because I know how nerve-wracking it is to put yourself out there and post something you've written, only to have it taken down. I don't want to deter people from posting, I only ask that people inform themselves and respect the rules of the board.

As for the other suggestions for posting fics, they are merely suggestions. Do I expect people to run out and get a Beta? No, and I believe that betas are not for everyone. I've got a fic floating around in Pens that I never had beta'd, mostly because I don't have a thick enough skin to take it. But it's there for the enjoyment of whoever reads it. On the flip side, I do agree that having someone look over your work is a sure way to get better at writing.

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A story left untold dies with you, and that is a crying shame when it occurs.



I agree. The beauty of Pens is that every fic will find an audience. Which brings me to this:


Quote:
I would hope that everyone has enough sense of pride that they would do what they had to in order to ensure readability.


Amen! Though I can't speak to the content of the fics in Pens, I can guarantee that if authors paid more attention to form (ie, spelling/grammatical errors, formatting, punctuation), they would see an increase in readership and feedback.

Again, I encourage everyone to read this thread if you're a new Kitten looking to post a fic, or an old one who's been around the block for a while. Take what you think will work for you as an author, and leave the rest. But please please PLEASE read the FAQ!!! :)

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:59 pm 
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Glad to see this thread is getting new life after all these years.

Carleen

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:15 am 
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Hello Miss moderator! And kittens :). I'm not sure where to post this, but well... I wonder if I can post a fanfic challenge here? Or should I make a new thread for challenge and so kittens can request fic they want to read someday?

Waiting for your reply. Before I make mistake and my question removed.


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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:57 am 
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Hey perchiper,

You can go ahead and create a thread for it in Pens. Remember to be specific about the requirements; you can always do a search for "challenges" and see how the previous ones were worded. Good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:46 am 
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Heya all!

I have a very specific question for anyone who's willing to help me: through all the fics I've written (and I know that that's not much, but still) I noticed that I'm very, very bad at writing action sequences. I just can't seem to find the right 'flow' and keep it consistent at the same time.

Does anyone have any tips for me?
Mrs. P

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:14 pm 
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Action is a really broad category: fight scenes, sex scenes, and walking around campus scenes could all be considered “action.” What kind of action you’re trying to write will come with different sets of rules (and writing rules are meant to be understood before you break them). I have a little to say about action in general off the top of my head:

1) The way you learn to write is by copying others. So, find action scenes you like to read, and figure out what you like about them. I'm fond of how dlline writes action; of course, her big pieces were pulled from the board. She has a short fic thread here (which includes "What Would Willow and Tara Do?", an absolute must-read), and also wrote the books Head Trip and On Dangerous Ground (aka "The Rosenberg Files" when it was still on the board; the unpublished sequel, "The Rosenberg Paradox" she's eventually going to repost on the board, but is busy with "life" or some such). But there’s plenty of authors who write good action. Find what you like, and analyze what they do that makes it appealing. Since there’s still active writers on the board, if you can find someone still around, you can point to an action scene and say “how did you do this? Why did you make these choices?”

2) Keep track of where your camera is. POV is always important (I'm kind of a fanatic about it), but it's really important in action. Where are you writing from for the pieces that aren't action? Does your camera jump around there? If not, but jumps around during the action, it's not going to feel like a continuous thing. Are you writing from a really zoomed out place, where you can see everything that's going on? That feels more like an action scene on a TV show, but to me at least, is a lot less interesting to read. Are you writing from a single character’s perspective? Then there should be things that happen that they don’t see or maybe if they see them, they don’t understand.

3) If you’re going from a very in-the-moment feel, like word-for-word dialogue, to a summary of actions, try taking a bit of time to zoom out. At the same time, you might be doing a beat-for-beat description of action, which is fine, too. But it’ll feel different.

4) “And . . . and . . . and” is a really boring way to write action. Check paragraphs for how many times you say “and.”

Um, that’s what I can think of right now.

Kate

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:53 am 
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Wow! Thanks for the tips. And sorry for not being very specific in my question. I kinda imagined the scene at the beginning of S6, where the scoobies go vampire-hunting with Buffybot. How would you write such a big scene, with so much action and so much going on as a readable prose-text? How do you keep track of all the different things going on at the same time without losing the flow of the story?

Anyway, thanks for the tips you've given me. I notice that POV is often something I struggle with, especially when I try to incorporate both Willow and Tara's experience.

Helena

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:05 pm 
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Mrs. Pineapple wrote:
Wow! Thanks for the tips. And sorry for not being very specific in my question. I kinda imagined the scene at the beginning of S6, where the scoobies go vampire-hunting with Buffybot. How would you write such a big scene, with so much action and so much going on as a readable prose-text? How do you keep track of all the different things going on at the same time without losing the flow of the story?


Okay, so if I wanted to write that scene exactly, I would decide who had the most interesting POV. Willow can see the most, so she's a good choice if you want to watch the battle unfold. But it depends on the surrounding story. Is it more interesting to talk about combat, or how Tara reacts to the whole mind-meldy thing? She's also been doing patrol a lot less than everyone else, so her perceptive might be more interesting/accessible to the reader.

I like a fairly tight camera, and am less interested in how a combat looks than what people think about it, so I'd probably go with just Tara. I'd follow her actions through the sequence, keeping the surrounding world to what she can see and hear. But I'd still map out everything that's happening on a bigger scale. Probably with an actual map (nothing fancy, just sketched out on a sheet of paper). Just because the POV character can only see so much of what's going on, that doesn't mean you can get away without knowing what else is happening. You may not need to know what Willow and Xander's conversation looks like, but you need to know that he enters the battle with Willow's direction. You don't have to know the blow-for-blow account of the bot fighting, but you have to know who she fights and when.

I know coming up with all that and then not writing it down feels like you're throwing things away, but it really influences the quality of the story. Take when Tara doesn't see the vampire flying at her, but she responds instantly to Willow telling her to duck. If you're writing that scene, you have to know what's going on with that vampire and why Tara's not looking in the direction of that fight.


As for keeping track of POV, it's an area where studying books tends to be more useful than studying fanfiction or television. My favorite books tend to be from a third-person limited POV. The way that I learned to think about it was by writing with one POV and just sticking with it. dlline beats me if I pull someone else's in; she may be on the other side of the country, but that woman has good aim. Another good way to learn is to read things that are in a tight POV, like first person. Might I recommend "Waiting for Dani"? It's clear throughout that Deb knows what Willow's experience is throughout the story, and lets it filter in through Tara's eyes. It's also a good lesson in . . . about a zillion other things.

Lemmie know if that helps or gives you more questions. Or both.

Kate


Last edited by BeMyDeputy on Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:47 pm 
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Rating: NC-17 I guess. Sorry.

Quote:
Might I recommend "Waiting for Dani"? It's clear throughout that Deb knows what Willow's experience is throughout the story, and lets it filter in through Tara's eyes. It's also a good lesson in . . . about a zillion other things.

Well, as always, thanks so much, Katie.

I like the way Katie is explaining focusing the description on one character's POV. I would say that whether the action is sex, fight, or walk, you want to not focus on the blow-by-blow (as it were). Could you focus on the reaction of your focus instead? Does Willow feel overwhelmed by the power she sees when Buffy and Faith take on a group of vampires? Is Tara transfixed by the softness and wetness of Willow's sex as her tongue slides through it? No one wants to read a count of each time Tara does XYZ to Willow or vice versa. We want to read that she loves the feeling, that Willow moves uncontrollably, that Willow makes a whimpering noise in the back of her throat, etc. The same goes for fight scenes. Do we need to know that Xander punched a vampire twice and then grabbed the ax? No. We need to know that Willow can tell that he's holding his own and that he doesn't need help from Spike. Is the air filled with the sound of flesh meeting flesh (in either type of action I guess)? Are people screaming in pain?

I'm not sure if that's helpful or makes sense. I hope so...

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:36 am 
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Uh... Wow

To answer both of you, yes, this was really helpful. In lots of ways. I'll keep all the POV-tips in mind when writing action. It's never been my strongest point, but I like to learn!

So, thank you for your very accurate and detailed answers. If I come up with something else, I'll let you know ;)

Mrs. P

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:30 am 
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Hey!

It's me again. I know I haven't been posting anything lately, but that's for a very good reason. I've been reading up on writing tools and such, so I hope that when I finally post something again, it will be a whole lot better than what I have been doing so far.

Anyway, my question this time is about dialogue. I notice that while I like to read dialogue (if it's well done), I have a tendency to avoid writing it, and I suppose that's because I'm not very good at it (yet). And strangely, though I (personally) like to write thought processes, I tend to skip those parts of a story in favour of the dialogue when I'm reading. I did some research on the subject already, but I'd like to have some tips from anyone willing to share ;)

Thanks!
Mrs. P

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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: So ya wanna post some Fan Fi
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:10 am 
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Hey Mrs. P!

So, I've been thinking about your question. I can't say if I write good dialogue, but I know that I like to write it. So I've cobbled together some thoughts. I hope they come out as making sense. I'm going to use some drabbles of mine as examples, just because they're really accessible and since they're mine, I'm comfortable picking on them. Dialogue in something longer is of course going to feel different than these, because the point won't be to tell a story in such a little space.

It's hard to come up with general comments, I think, because dialogue can serve different purposes, and it looks and feels and is written differently depending on that purpose. More on purpose in a bit.

All dialogue is fundamentally about the exchange of information; unlike normal text, however, the communication isn't just to the reader, but it's also between characters. This sounds obvious, given we're talking about dialogue and all, but it's key to keep in mind: the characters are talking for the sake of each other, not for the reader. So when you're writing dialogue, you have to write something that it makes sense for them to be saying to each other.

Remember that context is huge. There's a line in "Waiting for Dani," where Dani says "Yours now." And in every other Willow/Tara story, this would be a sweet line. But in WfD, it falls somewhere between heartbreaking and sickening.

Also, depending on what your goal is for the conversation, you're going to have more or less text surrounding the spoken words. Here's some examples from my drabbles:

Quote:
Hurt
“That’d be a good start.”

Tara was stunned. They’d disagreed before, they’d had heated arguments before—particularly about the magic--but nothing like this. Not with words that were meant to cut and tear rather than persuade or deflect.

Even when Willow had come to Tara in tears, not knowing whether to return to Oz or to stay with Tara, she’d done so with more compassion than she showed now. Just as she did then, the only thing Tara knew how to do was to show Willow she loved her.

“If I didn't love you so damn much, I would.”


Quote:
Lose Control
"Just so you know, if Xander hurts her, I'll kick his ass."

Willow blinked a few times. Xander had warned her about the maid of honor being particularly defensive of Dawn.

"Don't worry. There wont be any need for that, he's a sweet guy. I promise."

"Dawn keeps telling me." Willow gulped as Tara took a predatory step forward. "You know what else she tells me?"

" . . . no?"

"That you're single." Tara kissed her. Hard. When she stepped back, Tara mashed the "4" button on the elevator. "C'mon. Rehearsal isn't for an hour."

"Sounds good."

"I'm Tara, by the way."

"Willow."


The balance in these two between spoken words and surrounding text is really different, and that balance influences how the text feels. It also matters that in "Lose Control," the surrounding text includes some clue as to Willow's mental state, but primarily describes action. In "Hurt," there is no action, no description of the scene, just Tara's mental state. I could get away with this because I can count on my audience placing it at the Bronze in "All the Way," at least once they've read the end. I mean, it's one of the scenes where they kiss on screen, and Amber in that red trench coat is fucking hot . . . wait. Not what I was talking about. Right. Anyway, these are different in tone because they're about very different things (fighting vs. seduction), but they are also structurally different.

Now, what kinds of things can you use dialogue to do? I think of dialogue in terms of what it does for me on two axes (as in more than one axis, not more than one axe):
1) Exposition
2) Demonstration of character

Exposition
Sometimes dialogue tells the story you want be telling. If one of the driving forces in your story is the interplay between the girls, them talking is your story, even if it's about somewhat trivial stuff. On the other hand, if their relationship is one part of a story with a bigger scope, then a lot of things them as people would talk about (hey, we're out of milk; pick up Joshua from your Dad's house after work; dammit woman, get off the computer and fuck me) aren't going to play a big role in story movement.

I'm not really coming up with more to say on this point. Hmm. Tons more on the next one, though!

Demonstration of character
Dialogue can show what kind of person someone is as much as action. Just because the character is telling doesn't mean that the writer isn't showing. Willow and Tara are different people with distinctive voices. What they say and how they say it should reflect that. And it's more than Willow babbling or Tara stuttering. Willow has a temper,Tara avoids confrontation. Willow craves approval, Tara wants acceptance.

The best way I've found to get a feel for how the characters sound is, well, to watch the show. I have Netflix, and will bounce around different episodes just to listen to them talk, usually to each other. It's much more of a pain in the ass on DVD, just because you have to switch discs if you're as erratic as I am. I've watched "The Body" (and the scene in the dorm room in particular) I don't know how many times. Not only is it an amazing piece of writing, but how people react to loss is really informative. I also like watching/listening with the script in front of me (buffyworld.com has scripts and transcripts for just about every episode). The nice thing about DVDs, though, is that you can take a scene and put it on a loop and listen to it until you really get it.

Did I mention I spent over an hour listening to the "Yours" scene before I wrote it up for QoH?

. . . and that I have a serious problem?

*cough*

Anyway, the demonstration of character can also be about how they feel about one another. And I don't mean just saying "I love you" all the time, or using pet names or whatever. Let me pull up an example.

Quote:
Negotiations
“Are you sure about this?”

“Yes.”

“Like, really sure?”

“You know, I did think about this before I asked. It's okay, honest.”

“I just . . . .”

“I'm sure. Really.”

“Well, if you're sure . . . .”

“Jeeze, this from the girl who's been roughly shoving me against things and kissing me senseless for . . . how long now?”

“Yeah, well . . . shut up. And lift your head: I'm not tying this blindfold around the pillow.”

“Should have known a little lip would do it.”


So, I would say that this bit is really useful in demonstrating character, even though the differences between Willow and Tara don't really show up here, and in fact, the text doesn't say which lines belong to which speaker. But at the same time, it shows a lot about their relationship: vulnerability, trust, playfulness.

A big thing to keep in mind in terms of demonstration of character in dialogue is the question of what stage in their relationship are Willow and Tara. People who are friends speak differently than those who are starting a relationship, and both of those are different from how people who have been in a relationship a long time sound. I think that around the start of a new relationship is the hardest dialogue to write, simply because that's when people are least likely to be straightforward. It requires keeping track not just of what each character is saying, but what each character is thinking, and also what each character is hearing. Which is not always what the other character means. Now, you can take advantage of this, and have something appear to be one thing, and have it turn out differently. You can have Willow ask completely inappropriate questions in public, say, on a bridge, and have Tara not bat an eye about the total fucking weirdness of the situation, because she's caught up with other things.

Crap. I think I got distracted there again.

Ahem.

Anyway, those are the things that are coming to mind for me right now. Oh, also, much of my advice about action applies here: figure out what kind of dialogue you like to read, and figure out what you like about it. Ask the author about it. I also recommend looking at published books, and seeing how they handle dialogue.

If you want anything clarified or have more questions, feel free to ask.

Kate

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