Considering Changes to the FAQ

[Sassette]

Well, thanks, you two, but that's kind of my point. Let's say I write that fic and post it (because the rule is now "author's judgement" or "moderator's judgement" and it gets approved), and someone reads it, likes it, and hasn't read the FAQ that would have more detail on why a fic like that would be okay, but W/O or T/O in other contexts wouldn't.

So they write a fic that has a W/O or T/O component that's different enough that it's no longer in line with the spirit of the Kittenboard, like, say ... post Tabula-Rasa, Willow and Amy are hooked up and doing it during awful dark magic benders. It's not so different that someone who just reads fic instead of the FAQ couldn't reasonably assume that would be allowed. No matter how well-written, awesome, and happily-ever-after W/T-only that story with an Amy/Willow component ended up being, it wouldn't be right for the Kittenboard ... and my "just squeaks by" fic would have made it possible.

So yeah, it is a trade-off. Maybe my fic idea would be totally awesome. Maybe the Amy/Willow-component fic would be totally awesome. But the point of the Kittenboard isn't totally awesome fic: it's totally awesome W/T fic. That requires a hard line to keep non-W/T fic out, no matter how otherwise totally awesome that fic would be.

-Sass

[Rhiannon9891]

I am in agreement with xita, watty, Foo and EaiserSaid.
This board was founded on a W/T-centric relationship and should remain so. I love the great authors and fics of this board. If I want to read or write W/T/O, there are other sites to go to. But there is not a community like The Kitten Board anywhere else.

xita wrote:

This was never about what is right or wrong or what is fair. It was about what people want the kitten and pens to be. It seems like maybe part of the reason this is still going is because of what it stands for. I am kinda happy and proud of that.

You should be proud xita, along with all the past and present mods.


EaiserSaid wrote:

In my opinion, Pens is the strong, vibrant community it is because of the rules, not in spite of them.

I could not agree more Heather.


Sassette wrote:

But the point of the Kittenboard isn't totally awesome fic: it's totally awesome W/T fic. That requires a hard line to keep non-W/T fic out, no matter how otherwise totally awesome that fic would be.

Exactly.


This concludes my two cents.
Rhi

[JustSkipIt]

Pipsberg wrote:

Ok, that was really cheesy, but I feel cheesy for the board right now so there you go! Or, it could be hormones.

You think you're taking it off-road? Here I go: Are you pregnant? That would be so totally awesome. See, totally off-road.

Also - Sassette - That sounds like an awesome fic.

Also - Easiersaid...

"And in Part 12, Willow falls into Amy's arms, despondent that Tara won't take her back! Oh noes!"

Oh sorry. I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.... Ok, not literally but ... eek.

[pipsberg]

You think you're taking it off-road? Here I go: Are you pregnant? That would be so totally awesome. See, totally off-road.

Nu-uh!! Nope. Nooooo no no no.

[Kajun]

I voted NO, and expressed my concerns via PM to Xita, but, I think I should say it publically. I have been a member since the Kitten was just a few months old. I’m still here, 10 years later, because this is the ONLY place the Willow and Tara relationship is truly SAFE. If this change was allowed, the “other” fics would end up drowning out Willow and Tara. Make no mistake about it. Word gets out fast. And it is exactly because of the great feedback and ability to have discussions that writers would just LOVE to post any and every fic they have in this community. Another huge problem I have is the “as long as Willow and Tara are together in the end” idea. Take a look around and note how many fics have been completely abandoned. Most of my favorite stories haven’t been updated in YEARS. That’s part of the reason I hardly ever comment anymore. I sure don’t want to be in the midst of reading a story where Willow and/or Tara is with “other” and be left with that because, for whatever reason, the writer did not finish the story. This happens all the time. I don’t care how good the story may be up until that point. If it isn’t complete and W/T are not together because one or both is currently with “other” then it is against the rules AND the very foundation for this board being created in this first place. Period. How long should we wait for this wonderful ending if “other” is allowed? What guarantee do we have that if we are patient for _blank_ amount of time due to writer’s block or ‘real life’ or whatever, that it will EVER get finished? None. There is nothing stopping a member, or group of members from starting their own "other" fic forum. I’m not afraid of what might happen; I just don’t want what will happen. I prefer the Kitten stay the way it is.

A thread for requests/suggestions for “other” fics somewhere on the board (not the PENS) would be okay. Don’t care about Ken as long as it’s a bit part and there is NO romantic or sexual relationship between her and Willow OR her and Tara.

Suggestions: I would also like to see a donation button set up so members can help Xita with the costs of maintaining this wonderful community. Perhaps a link on every page for the Café Press store too?

Thank you Xita.. you totally ROCK!

Willow and Tara FOREVER!!

[Foomatic]

Greetings from the Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport, land of the free WiFi!

Watty and Sassette bring up great points.

Xita, in your opening post, you had mentioned that the proposed change would require less moderation. The change opens Pens up to a whole mess of "others." Like Watty said, where would we draw the line? Even though we probably won't be inundated with W/T/O fics, of the ones that are submitted, "other" is so open to interpretation that it would seem as though "anything goes." There would have to be additional parameters on top the change in order to keep the "other" action to a level that does not completely alter the spirit of Pens.

The idea of "author judgement" and "moderator judgement" is an interesting one. I love it when I receive PMs regarding fics in Pens. That shows me that these authors have read the FAQ and respect it enough to ask questions when they are unsure if their fic meets the requirements. Most of the time, they are in the clear; I have not received a PM from an author that I had to deny. Unfortunately, these PMs are few and far between.

That being said, if it was left up to the mods to decide which W/T/O fics are worthy of being posted in Pens . . . that's a tall order. While I am up to the challenge, again, there would have to be strict guidelines in place in order to make fair judgements. It would require more on the part of the authors as well. I don't know that a lot of the authors on Pens really plan out their fics from beginning to end. Who's to say that as the fic is written it won't deviate from the orignial synopsis they submitted?

Kajun brings up a great point too. Pens is a hotbed of discussion and feedback. What author wouldn't want to tap that? That's what makes the board great, and yeah, it does come at a premium. Willow and Tara only, all day, all the time.

[watty]

While I am up to the challenge

I have no doubt that you, and the other mods, will absolutely rise to the challenge. However, I do not want to have to put you into that position. Like Sass, and perhaps many writers here, I have fic ideas that fall outside of the FAQ. If I ever get that fic written, instead of whining to the mods to change the rules to fit my purpose, I'd simply post it elsewhere.

As for another thread or area for posting non-W/T fics, if there's sufficient interest, then go ahead. But I raise a question -- do we expect our hardworking mods to moderate even more threads? Especially topics that have nothing to do with the purpose of this board? Who is going to come up with the rules for those? Just sayin'.

I would also like to see a donation button set up so members can help Xita with the costs of maintaining this wonderful community.

Yes. Count me in.

I haven't had the time or bandwidth to read and post much here in many years, but the debate has rejuvinated the spirit of the board and has made me want to read, post and... even write!

I know!!! I can't remember the last time I checked the KB so diligently than the last couple of days. I'll have to catch up on my reading, sorry Heather and all the new writers I've never read. Okay, my turn for going off-road -- when I find time to write, it'll be towards publication. So, sorry kittens, no fics on the horizon.



[br]

[Puff]

Long time reader and kitten member I've been lurking around still for years. But this is something I feel very strongly about so I had to try and remember my password lol. I'm a strong no. The reason I come back still after all these years is for Willow and Tara. I have no desire to read about one without the other, and if I did there are other sites for that. The kitten was created to be all about Willow and Tara and I hope it remains that way. Thanks Xita btw for all your years of dedication and work to the board

Oh and Sass I'd love to read that fic too...actually I'd love to read any of your fics so feel free to write again. Soon.

[isfreaky]

Hi Kittens

This topic has made me want to come out of hiding and add my 2 cents.

Iv been lurking (living) for around 6 years on the board, I rarely log in, I'm not a writer and I kind of suck cause Iv never really left feedback for all the fantastic fics I have read here and god knows I have read almost all of them and loved them with all my heart.
I come to this board more times than any other place I visit in real life or on the net, the Kitten board has been my great escape . I don't believe the board would fall apart if the changes suggested did occur but I know it would change my experience coming here as a reader and so for selfish reasons I am STOKED that changes to FAQ is a no go

If I want to read a fic or write a fic that has T/W/O or any of those combination's I can think of at least 4 other good sites to go to off the top of my head for those kinds of fics.

This topic has bought out some of my favorite writers which I'm going to list because I have agreed with every thing they have said on this topic and they have said it better than I ever could EasierSaid, Sasset, dlline, pipsberg, JustSkipIt, Watty You guys ROCK!

Also I know this is off topic but THANK YOU Xita for this board and all Mods for the work you do here.

I LOVE THIS BOARD!

[BuffyFan4ever]

I think we're all mostly in agreement that the FAQs should not and will not change. Does this mean the strike is over?

I'm still curious about if a discussion thread will be accepted in the pure-Buffy Litterbox. So far, those who mention it wouldn't care, as long as it's out of the way. Does anybody have any strong feelings against it as long as it's clear that NO FICS WILL BE POSTED? If that gets overturned, can there at least be a thread for people to say that they don't mind accepting PMs and e-mails about it?

I'm trying to find a way for people to still talk to each other without changing the board. While allowing W/T/O fics clearly upsets the majority here,which I understand, it's also the only discussion board I've come across. If I am being unreasonable, please say so.

I want to thank Xita for creating this thread, no matter what the outcome. These are thoughts that I've wanted to share for a while and it's nice to have a thread where, even when people disagreed, I knew it wasn't personal. I even ended up changing my initial opinion because people brought up fears that I hadn't thought of before, but ended up agreeing with. It's this type of discussion that I hope to extend to all Buffy fan fiction and not just Willow and Tara (why should they have all the fun).

BTW, for those who want to share and talk about other stories, my e-mail is robbinsbm@uindy.edu.

[chance]

My My My. How this dragged people out of the woodwork. It's nice to see some old "faces" around here... Hi everybody.

I would like to first say that I completely respect everyone who would like to keep the board exactly as it is. Afterall, why mess with sucess? It's a beautiful place to read and post, and it's my favorite place to do both... And I think it's this level of commitment to this relationship that fosters this kind of environment.

That being said, I have to say that I wouldn't mind seeing a little bit more of the gray area explored.

I have no desire to see Willow or Tara with a man. I'm not really into threesomes personally or fictionally, I think either way it's too much work for not that much payoff...

But I think there's something to be said for allowing for storylines that feature W/T primarily but have some wiggle room in terms of them being involved before that relationship starts/conflict while they're involved. I completely agree that I don't want to see them with anyone else, and I would never put them into a sexual situation in this manner, but a romantic one doesn't pose as much of a threat to me. I agree with whoever said it before: they can take it. Because they belong together.

Disclaimer: I had a fic pulled off the board in '03? I think it was... W/T were very happy together, but someone was using magic to mess that up. I'm not upset about it being pulled, and I completely understand why it was done, but it was interesting and I was going (quickly) back to them-- with no intereference.

But I also agree with Sassette (I think it was you!), that it becomes a difficult thing to manage and that we can't trust everybody to play by the rules as it is, having a gray area would make it damn near impossible. I just wanted to put it out there.

Again, I'm cool either way. I'm happy people are so committed to this place that they don't want to change it.

I hope this adds to the discussion.

Also, I'd like to echo the thank you to the moderators who continue to do so much work so that we all have this place to enjoy. Thank you so much for so many great years.

Thanks to all you kittens, as always,
M.

[tarawhipped]

I can see both sides of this issue, but before I put in my 2 cents, I'd like to comment on the process.

I think a poll was a fantastic idea, but there still seems to be a lot of confusion as to what the changes actually are (or maybe it's just me...I have had a lot of caffeine and cookies today and am feeling a little manic). Xita's original post said the proposed change would be to the "Any creative effort featuring Willow or Tara with any other character in any romantic/sexual situation is Off Topic and does not belong on the board" section. But if W/T must remain the main couple, does this mean that the other relationship has to be in the past, or could W/T be the main focus throughout and then ride off into the sunset with someone else? Disclaimer: I am not advocating the latter, just pointing out a vague aspect.

In addition, the poll was posted on Thursday and was declared pretty much settled less than 24 hours later. I know that nowhere near all 2700+ members of the board are still active, but it still seems rushed to call the issue closed when a great number of people might not yet be aware of it. I know it's not technically 'closed' since the poll is still open.

Given the above, I would suggest clarifying the poll, if not making a new, more specific one, and leaving it up for at least a week before making any conclusions. I do appreciate all of the time and hard work that the moderators put into this board, and their commitment to keeping it going, so I hope this doesn't come off as nitpicking.

As for me, I love knowing that W/T will always have their happily ever after here. If I want to see them in other pairings (I don't), there's plenty of other options. But I'm not opposed to allowing more leniency regarding exes (a la Oz), including the K chick, as long as they aren't sexually explicit. I did have an idea dinged many years ago (I did ask in advance) and it was a disappointment. That said, I would never hold my fics hostage regardless of the final decision. I apologize to the people who would, but I just don't think that's fair to the readers.

Thanks again Xita for opening this up to discussion. I hope you're not sorry you did.

-Cam

[Naeryn]

You've been here long enough to know that I am not swayed by threats. Many people have taken their toys and played somewhere else because I would not change our rules. I still believe in the spirit of our FAQ, the entire point here was to weigh in on the feelings of people, to see if I was out of touch. It only reinforced what I already believed in. The discussion is still open because I think it's interesting. This was never about what is right or wrong or what is fair. It was about what people want the kitten and pens to be. It seems like maybe part of the reason this is still going is because of what it stands for. I am kinda happy and proud of that.

Did you feel that I was threatening you in some way? I'm sorry, I certainly didn't intend to. You still believe in the spirit of the FAQ? Are you implying that I don't? Why do I feel like I'm being accused of something? You say the entire point here was to weigh in on the feelings of the people. I was just giving you mine. It happened to disagree with yours, is that a crime? Does that somehow violate the spirit of Willow and Tara? And when exactly did I mention right, wrong, or fair? Okay, so this is about what people want the kitten and pens to be. One, am I not one of those people, just because I happen to be in the minority? Two, I did say that I was disappointed, but perfectly willing to accept the lack of change, didn't I? Where is this attack coming from?

And can I ask people in general where comments like

instead of whining to the mods to change the rules to fit my purpose, I'd simply post it elsewhere.

and

I'm thrilled that so many people still believe in the spirit in our FAQ

came from? I voice a disagreement, and I get these implications thrust at me, from the general public? Am I mistaken? Because this is how it looks to me.

And thank you, Sassette and chance, for that little bit of a back-up, there...

[pipsberg]

In addition, the poll was posted on Thursday and was declared pretty much settled less than 24 hours later. I know that nowhere near all 2700+ members of the board are still active, but it still seems rushed to call the issue closed when a great number of people might not yet be aware of it. I know it's not technically 'closed' since the poll is still open.

When did you get, like, all logical and stuff. ;P

[EasierSaid]

Naeryn - I won't speak for anyone else, but I know with my comments - all of my comments - in this thread, I was speaking to the general 'I would like to change the FAQ' crowd. I was using the universal "you" in my examples/questions much as I often use the singular "they." (Grammar nerds, holla!) If you felt I was calling you out personally as the flag-bearer for the 'please let's change the FAQ' crowd, I apologize, as that was certainly not the intention. I'm not a call-a-person-out-on-the-Internet-vaguely type of person. If I did have something to say to any poster I'd either say 'hey insert-poster's-name, I disagree with what you said' or send a PM. I'm not sure what implication you took from the line you quoted, so let me be 100% clear: xita is happy that people still like the FAQ, and I am happy that people like the FAQ. It really is as simple, positive and vanilla as that.

[tarawhipped]

When did you get, like, all logical and stuff. ;P

I'm gaining wisdom in my old age, smartass.

[pipsberg]

I'm gaining wisdom in my old age, smartass.

Yeah, I guess logic was in short supply in the aughts. Glad to see you catching up there geezer.

[xita]

You've been here long enough to know that I am not swayed by threats. Many people have taken their toys and played somewhere else because I would not change our rules. I still believe in the spirit of our FAQ, the entire point here was to weigh in on the feelings of people, to see if I was out of touch. It only reinforced what I already believed in. The discussion is still open because I think it's interesting. This was never about what is right or wrong or what is fair. It was about what people want the kitten and pens to be. It seems like maybe part of the reason this is still going is because of what it stands for. I am kinda happy and proud of that.

Did you feel that I was threatening you in some way? I'm sorry, I certainly didn't intend to. You still believe in the spirit of the FAQ? Are you implying that I don't? Why do I feel like I'm being accused of something? You say the entire point here was to weigh in on the feelings of the people. I was just giving you mine. It happened to disagree with yours, is that a crime? Does that somehow violate the spirit of Willow and Tara? And when exactly did I mention right, wrong, or fair? Okay, so this is about what people want the kitten and pens to be. One, am I not one of those people, just because I happen to be in the minority? Two, I did say that I was disappointed, but perfectly willing to accept the lack of change, didn't I? Where is this attack coming from?

And can I ask people in general where comments like

instead of whining to the mods to change the rules to fit my purpose, I'd simply post it elsewhere.

and

I'm thrilled that so many people still believe in the spirit in our FAQ

came from? I voice a disagreement, and I get these implications thrust at me, from the general public? Am I mistaken? Because this is how it looks to me.

And thank you, Sassette and chance, for that little bit of a back-up, there...

I am not sure where your defensiveness is coming from, so no, I am not sure why you are feeling like you are being accused of anything. I wasn't saying you were threatening me. I was addressing your concern that somehow I was swayed by threats that others were making on this thread. I am not, never have been concerned with that. This is why I quoted a specific part of your post, that was the part I was replying to. I am sorry if that wasn't clear to you. I have no problem whatsoever with your opinion. There are others who have expressed much the same things and that's what I wanted, opinions. No one made me open this thread. I wanted to read. I objected to your accusation that I was somehow running scared because a couple of people threatened to take their fic away. It's not the way I moderate.

And no, I don't run the board like a democracy, I never have. It's not about being in the minority or the majority. When I started this board, it was literally less than 10 people. We needed a place where we could discuss Willow/Tara without having to be defensive about it or homosexuality in general. And I have tried to stay true to that and do right by what I still believe is one of the most beautiful love stories on tv. We have gone through some rough times at the kitten and the FAQ was an effort to keep w/t alive and well. Maybe you weren't here for the full on frontal assault by the buffyverse because we refused to go along with things. Maybe my mods and I shielded you from it because we were deleting machines. Or maybe you remember it, but the rules are still about that, not about what most people want.

You also quoted a comment that I did not make, so I cannot answer to that.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

To address other concerns, am I sorry I opened this thread? Oh hell no. I have seen some names and faces that meant a lot to me and I am happy to see! For that alone, it was worth it personally. The discussion? Fascinating.

When you make a poll, there is an option of how long to leave it open. I did not choose a time period on purpose because I did not know how long it would take me to make up my mind. It only took a day! I did not know what to expect. Would the votes trickle in? Would people feel ambivalent? The questions I had in my head about it were pretty much answered right away. It confirmed what I believed fairly quickly. Should I close this thread now that I made up my mind? I don't believe so. I think I am learning a lot about the board and its members through this process. And it's your chance to air your opinion. I also thought about not saying where my head is but how is that fair when I've made up my mind.

The FAQ is unclear as it is? Hmm... maybe. That's where moderation comes in, I have been thinking about this because it's mostly about what the purpose is and some people have mentioned some fics that have masterfully followed the spirit while toeing the line, but not everyone is as good or as well intentioned. If you set out to break the FAQ, you probably will.

CAM, I wanted to clarify. The part of the faq that I wanted to change was only the bolded part so this ,

Angst is very welcome but the end result should be the continuation of the W/T couple, which logically means Willow and Tara are alive and together in the end.

would have remained intact and that would preclude the question you had whether w/other or t/other could ride off into the sunset. It also wouldn't have changed the part where w/t were to be the main focus. I also wouldn't have changed the part where you could write w/t/other love scenes.

All moot since I have decided not to, but that was my idea.

[Laragh]

That said, I would never hold my fics hostage regardless of the final decision. I apologize to the people who would, but I just don't think that's fair to the readers.

Hi

I just wanted to clarify that, for me anyway, I wasn't 'keeping my fic hostage' so to speak, it was just that had the changes come into place, personally, I wouldn't have visited the board anymore and therefore wouldn't have continued to post. It wasn't intended as a bullying tactic or anything like that, just my own personal views.

[Candleshoe]

If I want to read a fic or write a fic that has T/W/O or any of those combination's I can think of at least 4 other good sites to go to off the top of my head for those kinds of fics.

And those are exactly the places I'd like to see a link for in the new recommendations thread, please? If one Googles, one has to wade through numerous pages of rubbish (or dead) links to get to the good stuff! Some of us don't have that kind of time, sadly...

[Sassette]

Hmmm ... I'm ambivalent about an Off-Site Recommendations thread anywhere on the Kittenboard. On one hand, fic-recs from Kittens are probably going to be more in-line with the kind of fic other Kittens are looking for ... on the other hand, it'll only takes a few poorly-described badly-disclaimed fics with "surprise!" content before things go horribly, horribly wrong.

For instance, I was reading this fic in another fandom - don't ask. Aww, hell. Fine. I'm a great big video game dork and I read Mass Effect Fanfiction. There - I said it. I am so ashamed. In my defense, when I'm out and about and bored, I read fic on my cell phone. Pens is pretty much impossible to read on a cell phone.

Anyway, this story was really freakin' great, and the pairing I like to read about was off saving the galaxy and getting married to each other and all was schmoopy and good and I really, really liked this fic. I would have recommended it to anyone who is such a big video game dork that they read Mass Effect Fanfiction. Until around part 20-ish. I've tried to block it out. That's when this fic did the Mass Effect equivalent of - out of freakin' nowhere, with no appropriate disclaimers or warnings - having Willow and Tara decide that they really love Buffy, too, and invite her to join their marriage. This is not my cup of tea, and had it been properly disclaimed somewhere before part 20, I would have exercised my right to give that particular piece of fiction a pass, and I am not going to finish it. But, again, up until that happened (out of nowhere!), I would have recommended it.

I mean, on one level, I feel like I just related a hysterical urban legend ("And then I woke up in a tub full of ice with a note and a cell phone next to me ...."), but I swear every word is true

Again, I'm ambivalent about an Off-Site Recommendations thread - largely because I think Off-Site Recommendations are iffy, especially with an unfinished fic. No way of telling if/when an author is going to just ... Go There ... in an unexpected and unpleasant way when the fic in question is being posted on a site that doesn't have the kind of FAQ we have here. I honestly think an Off-Site Recommendations thread would need a big disclaimer at the top that said something like "Read at your Own Risk, and Please Don't Come Back and Flame the Recommender if you end up Reading Something Totally Awful".

-Sass

ETA: Oh, well - that was a link, and this thread exists. Cool. I will be carefully averting my eyes

[Mrs. Pineapple]

Wow, this is becoming a really heated discussion... I'm in!
All in all I agree that the FAQ should remain the way it is: W/T-centered. It was the reason that I joined this board and I would really hate to see it changed.

The only thing I'd change is the Kennedy-rule. As much as I hate seeing Willow being with her after what she shared with Tara, it was a real relationship on the show, and - as long as she isn't in the way of W/T - I believe she should be respected as a real character (after all, I don't find it particularly hard to believe you'd fall for Willow )

As far as W/T/O goes, I quote Foo here:

As for creativity, I am reminded of a scene from Alcy's "Van Rosenberg": Willow travels to Japan and meets a woman she becomes attracted to. The attraction is mutual, and it provided great conflict and angst, and Alcy was able to capture all those emotions without violating the FAQ. It can be done.

I'm a sucker for W/T-angst, and if another character would make that more interesting, I'm all for it. So it can indeed be done.

To illustrate my point, I'd like to refer to 'Night of Broken Glass' by Junecleavage, in which Tara is in a relationship with Riley (I know, eek), but later on Tara and Willow get together. While a Riley-Tara relationship seems totally weird, it works there because of the historical context of the story.

As for the NC-17 rule, no changes please! Although here I again point out an exeption to the rule: I refer to 'It's always been you' by intricate mirage. In chapter 35 of this fic (page 15 on pens, page 9) there is a very graphic description - which I will not quote here - of Willow having sex with someone else. And while it's clearly forbidden by pens-regulation, it works there because all Willow can think of, is Tara.

Food for though, I'd say.

[jay/wt4evr]

First of all, cheers for Xita, for being moderator extraordinaire.
On topic, I personally believe that allowing other relationships on the Board would open it up for people that don't have our -I think- general adoration of W/T. While it may seem narrow-minded -or maybe it is-, since I came to this board I've always identified 'kitten' with 'W/T lover', and the Board as 'a place untouched by Mutant Enemy'; also, while discussing or writing about relationships not strictly concerning W/T is important and constructive, there are other places to do that.

I'd very much like for the Board to stay the way it is.

[Naeryn]

I am not sure where your defensiveness is coming from, so no, I am not sure why you are feeling like you are being accused of anything. I wasn't saying you were threatening me. I was addressing your concern that somehow I was swayed by threats that others were making on this thread. I am not, never have been concerned with that. This is why I quoted a specific part of your post, that was the part I was replying to. I am sorry if that wasn't clear to you. I have no problem whatsoever with your opinion. There are others who have expressed much the same things and that's what I wanted, opinions. No one made me open this thread. I wanted to read. I objected to your accusation that I was somehow running scared because a couple of people threatened to take their fic away. It's not the way I moderate.

And no, I don't run the board like a democracy, I never have. It's not about being in the minority or the majority. When I started this board, it was literally less than 10 people. We needed a place where we could discuss Willow/Tara without having to be defensive about it or homosexuality in general. And I have tried to stay true to that and do right by what I still believe is one of the most beautiful love stories on tv. We have gone through some rough times at the kitten and the FAQ was an effort to keep w/t alive and well. Maybe you weren't here for the full on frontal assault by the buffyverse because we refused to go along with things. Maybe my mods and I shielded you from it because we were deleting machines. Or maybe you remember it, but the rules are still about that, not about what most people want.

You also quoted a comment that I did not make, so I cannot answer to that.

I was not actually concerned that you were being swayed by others' threats. That is not what I was trying to express. I think I see where the miscommunication occurred, now. I meant that the people on the board in general seem to be afraid of Willow and Tara being with anyone else, even temporarily/abortively etc., and I'm not entirely certain why. Somehow, I just don't see this board degrading the way people say it will - no matter how you slice it, we're still chock full of W/T purists (clearly!). But that debate is closed, so I'll not add more to it - or repeat statements I've already made.

And as far as the democracy bit... well, the majority won, didn't they? Again, I don't really care all that much.

I also fully believe you have every right to be proud of this board. I know the KB has gone through some rough times (although I don't know WHY the buffyverse attacked - must everyone be precisely identical? How foolish - not to mention impossible), and I actually applaud you for keeping it going throughout. I just really didn't like the implication that because I disagreed, I had less love or respect for Willow and Tara...

And considering it was them that helped me figure out that I was gay in the first place, that kind of bothers me.

Oh - and the other comments that I quoted, and surrounding statements, were not directed at you anyway.

[sacinema]

First of all I would like to thank Xita personally for founding this board, keeping it open during all these years (even through the rough times you described) and still being the wonderful world of W/T loving fic. And I really appriciate that you opened this discussion. Oh and if you ever decide to include a donation button count me in.

Second I would love to thank all the wonderful authors on this board who shared their talent with us over the years. I'm not giving FB as often as I would like to do and I'm around this board for a long time now - not from the beginning but about 8 years or so. One of my problems is, reading in english and even more writing is taking me longer than in my own language because I'm not a native english speaker. But I do love so many fics around here and the quality mostly is on a really high standard.

Me not being a native speaker might be one of the reasons I tend to misunderstand some comments made before. I'm not sure. Xita, if I understand correctly, but the decission is already made. Everything stays as it is. Do not get me wrong I'm totally fine with that. Heck, if I weren't I wouldn't be around here anymore :-) But my vote would have been a different one. Even if I do understand most of the arguments to not open up the board a little bit.

I do love W/T and I seldom read other fics, I have to admit. So for me they must always be the main focus of any story. I do even have a hard time starting a fic which gives other couples a great deal of time. Hehe, and some couples I so dislike I won't start reading a fic which features said couple. I like W/T having a healthy romantic relationship, but I also love them having a more adventurous and bad-ass chic connection. So I would open up the board a bit, just a bit. For me one of them or both could be in an actual relationship with someone else during the fic. As long as there are no explicit sex scenes with others and the both of them have a happily ever after. For example I would love to read fics were for instance one of them is with someone else in the beginning and cheats on that other with either W or T. Or W/T are together for a longer time and one of them has an affair or something like that. Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with not reading such fics on the kittenboard. Just saying I would love to read them. And I do not know of another board were you can read such fics.

But I am all fine with the board staying as it is and I do hope to read more amazing fic for a long time. Thanks again.

[pipsberg]

For instance, I was reading this fic in another fandom - don't ask. Aww, hell. Fine. I'm a great big video game dork and I read Mass Effect Fanfiction. There - I said it. I am so ashamed. In my defense, when I'm out and about and bored, I read fic on my cell phone. Pens is pretty much impossible to read on a cell phone.

Wow. I'm not sure what I am more amazed by... that you admitted it or that you tried to defend it.

[Sassette]

If being a BioWare fangirl is wrong, I don't want to be right. They make the gayest games ever. Play a female character, save the galaxy, get the girl. Epic. I am, however, deeply and appropriately ashamed at the depths of dorkiness this represents ... and would only admit to it on an anonymous internet message board.

But to bring it back around to the on-topicness, it's that kind of thing that makes me deeply appreciate Pens and the FAQ as-is. There really is no other place like Pens, and while I am an equal-opportunity dork as far as the very wide scope (and totally embarrassing) range of fic I'll read, W/T are always going to be my favorite because of Pens, not because of what we were given on Buffy.

It really can't be overstated how unique Pens is, as far as being an open forum that has remained focused and dedicated on just one pairing, not just in the Buffy fandom, but >any< fandom. The closest I've ever seen is websites dedicated to just one pairing that doesn't have the forum component - just the stories, no live feedback. And, really, it's the FAQ and the hard work of the mods to monitor closely and eliminate trolls that make this possible. For anyone who doesn't mind dealing with the occasional troll, there's the whole internet. For people who are sick of that crap, there's the Kittenboard.

Does that mean Kittens can't handle a difference of opinion or criticism? No. That just means sometimes we're damn tired of the troublemakers who are so disrespectful in expressing it.

Bravo, mods.



-Sass

[jasmydae]

If being a BioWare fangirl is wrong, I don't want to be right. They make the gayest games ever. Play a female character, save the galaxy, get the girl. Epic.

Right there with you. Am I the only one who was let down that Shepard/(main character) couldn't romance Ashley/Morrigan?

OT, I'm glad the admins made a space for faqbreaking recommendations. I posted links to nearly two dozen stories that are W/T fics--I don't feel that the inclusion of a certain other character in any way diminishes the focus on their loving relationship in these fics.

[Willowtree252]

I voted NO it would change the makeup of the board. I could go in to long explanation but it has already been said by my counter parts. So NO, NO, NO.

[Paint the Sky]

I, too, voted no to a change in the FAQ.

Like others have said, there are no restrictions in writing in previous partners for Willow and Tara, the only restriction is in the way in which those relationships are written about, and the example, previously mentioned, in Alcy's fic is a perfect example of how that can be handled.

Pens for me is a comfy place, and it may seem selfish, and somewhat reactionary, but I like what I have here and don't want it to change.

When I want something a little different I know where to find it (before Tara appeared on the show, I'll admit to being a W/B and partial to a little W/F), and I'm more than happy for a rec thread to be on The Litter Box.

I think that's a good compromise - maybe the authors who want to introduce others into the relationship can, if they wish and if they have time, write a Pens Friendly version for here, and post their unedited version elsewhere providing a link in the new thread for those who want to read both versions.