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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 1:43 am 
The nerve thing was more interesting than I was led to believe. Donna Minkowitz is, for those who remember, the one who started it all online. She wrote the famous, "Make Willow Gay" article at salon. Anyway, she makes some really good points and most other entries only got a sentence. So here's what she had to say:

56. Heretofore Het Willow Gets a Girlfriend

For four seasons, Willow Rosenberg has been Buffy The Vampire Slayer's best friend, the shy computer whiz with a gift for magic- stand-in for every late bloomer, every sweet person on the cusp of something really special. This year, she fell in love with a girl. It was a breakthrough event for TV. Experimental Kisses aside, teenage lesbians are new for the networks, especially witches who perform ecstatic spells together that look a lot like orgasms. During one spell, while her girlfriend chanted words of power, Willow turned red, shook uncontrollably and arched her back - a more vulnerable display of adolescent sexuality than we've seen from any girl on the small screen. Almost as daring, Willow suddenly started liking girls. She didn't "discover" her "true" sexual orientation. Willow was really in love with her werewolf boyfriend Oz, in areally hetero way. Now she's really in love with Tara, in a really lesbo way. That the show doesn't expalin this is the part I like the most. Even more startling, Willow chose Tara over Oz when she had the opportunity to get her boyfriend back last spring. Teenagers who change sexual orientation as they explore new options? It's the religious right's worst nightmare (and my favorite dream). People who don't watch the show assume it's just campy candy, but they're wrong: The horror elements are metaphors for the pleasures and dangers of intimacy, the power of sex itself. Mild-mannered Willow actually becomes butch in Tara's presence, a far cry from her wallflower high-school self. When Willow expalins to tara that she hadn't told her friends about Tara because she wanted "something that was .. mine, " Tara takes a deep breath, then responds, "I am, you know... yours." Now for the frustrating part: The show is cowardly, even homophobic, about the girls' literal sexual life. For months, all they did was cast spells, allowing some viewers to insist that nothing was going on but salutes to the Goddess. They're an open couple now, but we've never seen them kiss. Buffy and military boyfriend Riley practically f u c k on-screen, Willow and Tara hug and light candles. It makes me crazy. I'd organize a boycott. But, then, well... I'd never find out what happens next.

I really like this pic. The lightning part.

Click for larger image

[This message has been edited by xita (edited December 17, 2000).]



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 6:03 am 
Well... Butch? I don't see butch. Anybody?


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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 7:06 am 
I like most of what Donna has to say ... but she needs to be more careful with throwing around accusations of homophobia. It's not *the show* (if by that she means its creators) that is homophobic, as far as we know, right? But rather, the networks and general higher-ups (and we don't even know for sure their pov; the suits might simply be making an economic decision based on their perceptions of what the general public's attitudes towards same-sex affection are, without personally being homophobic; in which case, "cowardly" may be a fair label for them). I mean, there's a difference between saying that you see inequality somewhere and accusing the *place* where you see it of bigotry, given the general hierarchical structures in society.

If, for example, some establishment did not serve some group of people (e.g. on racial grounds), and thus, one saw only, say, white people being allowed there, I agree that might make that place look racist. But if the establishment is only allowed to stay open if it abides by the law that it *not* serve non-whites, are its owners necessarily racist, particularly if they do the best rule-bending they can (like, say, serving non-whites out back for a discount, a la Fried Green Tomatoes)?

[This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 17, 2000).]



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 7:53 am 
Willow isn't what I would think of as particularly "butch" overall, but you could say she's butch relative to Tara, even in Tara's own estimation. And Willow did just score a double stake, using an old fashioned pointy stick and elbow grease, rescuing her manly compatriots Giles and Xander in the process.

-len



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 11:05 am 
Oh - My - God...I love that picture to pieces. As soon as I saw it I was like: "Hello, desktop!" I want to see a W/T animated special on Oxygen using that stylization. I want it so bad I can taste it. Thank you so much, Xita, for the scan.

I'm going to go crazy and agree with absolutely everything Donna says in this article. I remember her Salon articles very well and I've always liked her stuff. I even accept her calling the show itself cowardly, because a deep-down-darkness inside me has believed from the beginning that Joss has the power to make a big stink with the network about an onscreen kiss if he wants to and get it to happen. I know the WB might not let it happen anyway, but I would feel much better if I knew he pitched a fit about it and we had a clear, corporate entity to blame for no kissing.



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 1:10 pm 
I wouldn't say Willow was "butch" in Tara's presence more like "confident". I think being with Tara has made Willow a lot more outgoing more than when she was with Oz. Remember in the episode "Wild At Heart" when Willow interrupted Oz and Veruca and the conversation about amps.


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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 1:10 pm 
i love the pic and the article, too...thanks xita, for posting it!

does anyone know where i can find the infamous "make willow gay" article from salon? i'd love to read it.

woohoo for w/t in the press!



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 2:01 pm 
Here's the article. Mind you, she wrote this after watching Hush only. It's from Jan 12 and Doomed and a New Man hadn't even aired.


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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 2:14 pm 
What a flaming O great article! My word. Well she got her wish.


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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 4:00 pm 
I love that picture. Any idea who did it? I think the same person does carcatures for Entertainment Weekly and i've always loved those pictures. This one is super special because it's our girls!


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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 4:13 pm 
It was made by a guy called David Cowles. And I really do love the picture.


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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 4:17 pm 
Darin, I've always liked Donna Minkowitz's articles. She used to be a regular columnist for "The Village Voice" (lefty rag in NYC). I enjoyed her columns then. She's refreshingly honest and fiercely opinionated in her writing and definitely shoots from the hip. She has a book out that sounds interesting, although I have only read excerpts. The book (whose title has escaped me) is about her experience posing as a young man to inflitrate "The Promise Keepers" a few years ago.

And while I feel protective of the show when she makes charges of homophobia, I have to admit that I, too, have wondered about what would happen if Joss pushed harder for a kiss. I am certainly pleased overall with how he and the cast have handled the storyline. But I think about the many BUFFY viewers/fans who don't spend hours online digging for the inside scoop about the show and the W/T arc -- what they are left with is what they see (and don't see) onscreen. So the juxtaposition of Buffy/Riley sex fests with Willow/Tara spells and euphemisms is pretty glaring. The average viewer will not necessarily come to the conclusion that the disparity is deliberate and to make a point about the stupidity of WB restrictions.

In fact, I recently emailed Joss' posts about the kiss to a lesbian acquaintance who was pissed off with the portrayal of W/T -- only after she read the background material did she really embrace and come to respect the writing and execution of the storyline. Of course you can't please everyone, but this interaction gave me some insight into how BUFFY is received and perceived in the alternate universe of BUFFY fans -- a strange place where people don't hang out at message boards obssessively!



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 4:57 pm 
Yeah, Judy, that's something I've thought a lot about, how the show in general and w/t in specific are perceived by casual viewers as opposed to the online obsessed. I think that art in general should be able to stand on it's own without the audience having to take into account behind-the-scenes facts, intricate pause-and-play analysis and biographical/historical information. With that in mind, I can truly understand how the lack of an onscreen w/t kiss can seem like a glaring omission.

It's a fine line that the show walks in trying to please both the casual and obsessed viewers, but I think it holds up well for both camps. Still, from time to time both are also going to feel cheated by the lack of something (i.e. timely resolutions to past events like Amy being de-ratted) or the presence of something (i.e. how Dawn's debut was not expected or understood by many fans).

[This message has been edited by darvangi (edited December 17, 2000).]



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:11 pm 
grrr...i just wrote a really long post, and then the power flickered due to the crazy wind and rainstorms that we've been having today, and i lost the whole thing. sigh.

but anyway, i loved the salon article. xita, we can always count on you to provide the w/t-related goodies that we need...

judy, what do you mean "the 'other' buffy fans who don't hang out on message boards obsessively"? you mean my almost 600 posts in three months isn't normal? my god, what will people think of me? i'm going to have to start loudly trumpeting my love of "felicity" or "the street" to cover up my secret w/t life...

Donna Minkowitz is awesome, though. i had no idea that she was also the person who infiltrated the promise keepers. i have immense respect for her, and her salon article was dead on. i think that's the reason why w/t resonates for me so much more than the other same-sex goings-on on tv recently (ER, xena, dawson, ally mcwhatever...) i just don't get as excited about subtext and having to take that extra step to read between the lines, or short story arcs involving ill-fated relationships that disappear without a trace. and with willow and tara, i can tune in every week (well, almost every week) and see their maintext, caring, unapologetic relationship right there. it's great. and they're so damn *hot* together, too!

oh, and have i mentioned that i *love* the fact that nerve chose the flaming o spell to illustrate their blurb? woo and hoo!

oh, PS xita, i just introduced my gf to the wonders of "hush", and she too was blown away by the intense stares and intertwining hands of the soda machine scene. "so did they have sex once the door was barricaded, or what?" was her question...

[This message has been edited by april (edited December 17, 2000).]



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:38 pm 
hey thanks xita,
it's really a cool article, in fact i've printed it as well as the cute pic of w/t so i could read it every night and dream away. pax!


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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 6:55 pm 
Hey,

I completely agree that the lack of sexual intimacy between W and T *is* glaring. And a double-standard. And hence wrong.

But I still think that accusations of homophobia, like of racism and other bigotry, should not be made lightly. I know it was kind of a throw-away line in the article ... "even homophobic", and I appreciate that not everyone knows the constraints that the network has placed on the Buffy creators, but surely Donna Minkowitz is not so naive as to think that Joss Whedon has free rein to do what he wants.

And even if theoretically, viewers could get more onscreen W/T action if Joss went to bat for us a bit harder, I don't think he *owes* us more than he has given already. He has said he isn't out to "stick it" to the WB standards people, and I think that's a perfectly defensible position, given what *his* broader aims are. Is he being "cowardly"? I don't think so. Is BtVS a "cowardly" show because of the fact that it presents us with a double-standard? Not in my opinion; the double-standard on the show is a consequence and hence reflection of the cowardice and prejudice of others.



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2000 9:58 pm 
quote:IP: LoggedwolliwCool Monster Fighter


Posts: 286
Registered: Nov 2000
posted December 18, 2000 08:37               
Hi drlloyd,

You say:
"... Of course Joss has to tow the line, and WB obey its sponsers. By the reason why is homphobic."

I agree there's homophobia at fault somewhere -- just not that *the show* is the culprit! Which is what Donna Minkowitz claims in her otherwise entertaining and on-the-ball article.

As you say:
"what scares the WD into basic a cowedly decisions is fear of Homophobia."

... can't disagree with you there - but that's not what the original article was saying.

[This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).]

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posted December 18, 2000 08:37                Hi drlloyd,

You say:
"... Of course Joss has to tow the line, and WB obey its sponsers. By the reason why is homphobic."

I agree there's homophobia at fault somewhere -- just not that *the show* is the culprit! Which is what Donna Minkowitz claims in her otherwise entertaining and on-the-ball article.

As you say:
"what scares the WD into basic a cowedly decisions is fear of Homophobia."

... can't disagree with you there - but that's not what the original article was saying.

[This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).]IP: LoggedSpringMs. Moderator
Fantastico



Posts: 3271
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Ms. Moderator
Fantastico
posted December 18, 2000 10:09               


(IN John Wayne voice)Why....let me step in here...
quote:
The show is cowardly, even homophobic, about the girls' literal sexual life. For months, all they did was cast spells, allowing some viewers to insist that nothing was going on but salutes to the Goddess. They're an open couple now, but we've never seen them kiss. Buffy and military boyfriend Riley practically f u c k on-screen, Willow and Tara hug and light candles. It makes me crazy.

I guess it depends on how you define homophobia. I take this statement to mean that the lack of physicality in W/T's relationship tells the audience that open touching and overt displays of sexual attraction between 2 people of the same sex is *wrong*. Whether or not it is the intent of TPTB is not the question here if you are oblivious to the politics and background of the programme and are in reality just an average viewer who tunes in regularly every week and might buy a magazine occasionally if SMG is on the cover.
What the depiction of W/T conveys to the teen population is that gay is OK- but don't show it. It also says gay is OK - but it's just mainly cute and fuzzy, devoid of any sexuality that has bite. A kind of neutered sexuality.
So is this homophobia? Yes, because homophobia is fear of homosexuality, and here obviously someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings. What Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays.
I don't think that Minkowitz is out of line, but she perhaps should've recognized that Joss's hands are tied.

IP: Logged

posted December 18, 2000 10:09                (IN John Wayne voice)Why....let me step in here...
quote:
The show is cowardly, even homophobic, about the girls' literal sexual life. For months, all they did was cast spells, allowing some viewers to insist that nothing was going on but salutes to the Goddess. They're an open couple now, but we've never seen them kiss. Buffy and military boyfriend Riley practically f u c k on-screen, Willow and Tara hug and light candles. It makes me crazy.

I guess it depends on how you define homophobia. I take this statement to mean that the lack of physicality in W/T's relationship tells the audience that open touching and overt displays of sexual attraction between 2 people of the same sex is *wrong*. Whether or not it is the intent of TPTB is not the question here if you are oblivious to the politics and background of the programme and are in reality just an average viewer who tunes in regularly every week and might buy a magazine occasionally if SMG is on the cover.
What the depiction of W/T conveys to the teen population is that gay is OK- but don't show it. It also says gay is OK - but it's just mainly cute and fuzzy, devoid of any sexuality that has bite. A kind of neutered sexuality.
So is this homophobia? Yes, because homophobia is fear of homosexuality, and here obviously someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings. What Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays.
I don't think that Minkowitz is out of line, but she perhaps should've recognized that Joss's hands are tied.
quote:IP: LoggedGudanovDoll's eye crystal


Posts: 94
Registered: Dec 2000
posted December 18, 2000 10:21               


Speaking of Salon, it's interesting that in their message area called Table Talk the Buffy-related threads dominate in traffic over everything else in the TV section. A lot of Buffy watchers have been sucked in by Salon articles. Myself included.

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posted December 18, 2000 10:21                Speaking of Salon, it's interesting that in their message area called Table Talk the Buffy-related threads dominate in traffic over everything else in the TV section. A lot of Buffy watchers have been sucked in by Salon articles. Myself included.IP: LoggedHuginMs. Moderator
Fantastico



Posts: 787
Registered: Sep 2000
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Fantastico
posted December 18, 2000 11:16               
quote:
Originally posted by Spring:
[B

What Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays.
[/B]


I have to disagree with you (nee Minkowitz) on this point Spring. Assuming that Joss would genuinely like to show more W/T affection and intimacy that he's being currently allowed, I think the "Highlighted Double Standard" approach is one of the few weapons available to him.

Over and over I've seen folks, even folks who weren't particularly enamored of W/T, saying "Oh for crying out loud, that was just silly, let them kiss already." They may not like W/T per se, but within the context of the relationship and the show, even they can see, and be annoyed by, the double standard. And I've heard casual, non-fandom savvy viewers say the same thing.

It would seem that some of the W/T scenes are shot in multiple versions, which indicates to me that we'd be seeing nicer stuff if not for active censorship on the WB's part.

I suppose Joss could raise a bigger stink, push as hard as he possibly could, but I don't know that the results would actually be to our liking. There's been a pervasive sense throughout the run of the show that the WB didn't quite get it, I don't know how damaging a full on war would be. One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended. Or, one could argue that if the WB is uncomfortable with W/T, then to be equitable, all the intimacy on the show should be toned down, and in fact, why don't we take out all the possible objectionable content.

Now, I'm being sort of a jerk on purpose here. But really, compared to no W/T at all (which you know was a possibility, Joss had to fight for the very idea), or compared to a defanged (har har) show overall, I'm willing to grit my teeth, as long as I have a sense that Joss continues to work behind the scenes to make things more fair, which I believe he is. I would have never ever ever guessed we'd see in-bed snuggles based on last season. No way. And I keep having to remind myself that even what we've had so far (aside from the kiss) is still incredibly rare, if not breakthrough, for network TV. Take away W/T. That leaves how many open, canonical, ongoing relationships on TV, involving (sorry Felicity, Friends, etc) a main character?

I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond.

As for The Kiss...it would seem to be the keystone of the WB's corporate cowardice. I suspect that some suit backed him or herself into a corner, and is hunkered down in The Kiss like a bunker. It reminds me (in a weird way, bear with me) of the censorship laws surrounding some "adult" anime. Under those tortured guidelines, a penis cannot be shown penetrating a vagina (actually, I don't think you can show a penis at all). So, one of the techniques the makers of these things use to get around this is to have...oh, a gross variety of other items, standing in for the penis in sex scenes. So, because of a small, dumb bit of censorship, you get a much more prurient result. Happily, Joss has better taste, there will be no naughty tentacles on Buffy. But I much prefer his approach to, say, oh, Willow switching bodies with Xander and kissing Tara in Xander's body *cough*. Do folks want much more "spells as sex"? Because I got the impression, much as folks liked the flaming O last year, that they were getting kind of tired of that. That's the other path.

Dear god I talk to much.

-len

IP: Logged

posted December 18, 2000 11:16               
quote:
Originally posted by Spring:
[B

What Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays.
[/B]


I have to disagree with you (nee Minkowitz) on this point Spring. Assuming that Joss would genuinely like to show more W/T affection and intimacy that he's being currently allowed, I think the "Highlighted Double Standard" approach is one of the few weapons available to him.

Over and over I've seen folks, even folks who weren't particularly enamored of W/T, saying "Oh for crying out loud, that was just silly, let them kiss already." They may not like W/T per se, but within the context of the relationship and the show, even they can see, and be annoyed by, the double standard. And I've heard casual, non-fandom savvy viewers say the same thing.

It would seem that some of the W/T scenes are shot in multiple versions, which indicates to me that we'd be seeing nicer stuff if not for active censorship on the WB's part.

I suppose Joss could raise a bigger stink, push as hard as he possibly could, but I don't know that the results would actually be to our liking. There's been a pervasive sense throughout the run of the show that the WB didn't quite get it, I don't know how damaging a full on war would be. One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended. Or, one could argue that if the WB is uncomfortable with W/T, then to be equitable, all the intimacy on the show should be toned down, and in fact, why don't we take out all the possible objectionable content.

Now, I'm being sort of a jerk on purpose here. But really, compared to no W/T at all (which you know was a possibility, Joss had to fight for the very idea), or compared to a defanged (har har) show overall, I'm willing to grit my teeth, as long as I have a sense that Joss continues to work behind the scenes to make things more fair, which I believe he is. I would have never ever ever guessed we'd see in-bed snuggles based on last season. No way. And I keep having to remind myself that even what we've had so far (aside from the kiss) is still incredibly rare, if not breakthrough, for network TV. Take away W/T. That leaves how many open, canonical, ongoing relationships on TV, involving (sorry Felicity, Friends, etc) a main character?

I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond.

As for The Kiss...it would seem to be the keystone of the WB's corporate cowardice. I suspect that some suit backed him or herself into a corner, and is hunkered down in The Kiss like a bunker. It reminds me (in a weird way, bear with me) of the censorship laws surrounding some "adult" anime. Under those tortured guidelines, a penis cannot be shown penetrating a vagina (actually, I don't think you can show a penis at all). So, one of the techniques the makers of these things use to get around this is to have...oh, a gross variety of other items, standing in for the penis in sex scenes. So, because of a small, dumb bit of censorship, you get a much more prurient result. Happily, Joss has better taste, there will be no naughty tentacles on Buffy. But I much prefer his approach to, say, oh, Willow switching bodies with Xander and kissing Tara in Xander's body *cough*. Do folks want much more "spells as sex"? Because I got the impression, much as folks liked the flaming O last year, that they were getting kind of tired of that. That's the other path.

Dear god I talk to much.

-lenquote:IP: LoggedwolliwCool Monster Fighter


Posts: 286
Registered: Nov 2000
posted December 18, 2000 11:32               


Hi spring,

You (and others) have made the important point that casual viewers won't know that the inequality of rel'ship depiction is not due to the reluctance of the Buffy creators, but because of network restrictions. So from the viewer's perspective, I guess one might think that it *is* the show that is homophobic, or that the show is condoning the inequality.

But all I'm saying is that observing that there is inequality or hypocrisy somewhere, like a tv show, does not automatically enable someone to correctly identify the source of the bigotry. To go back to my earlier example, would it be fair to call Idgie and Ruth's cafe in Fried Green Tomatoes "racist" because they didn't serve black patrons in the front of the store? I hardly think so; if they did, they'd have been shut down, or worse. Perhaps a casual visitor to the town might conclude that the owners of the establishment are racist, but I think that would be wrong. Yes, the inequality of treatment -- a *manifestation* of racism -- is there in their cafe; but the racist attitudes and ideology rest not with them, but with others (the Klan, the legal and political power structures etc.).

Sure, as you say, "someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings", but personally I think it's unfair to lay that at the feet of the show. Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part.

Anyway, as I said, I enjoyed the rest of Donna Minkowitz's article, and I appreciate the general spirit of it. But on the other side of the coin, there *have* been battles that Joss Whedon has fought for W/T, not to mention the public statements of AB and AH; I just think that it's hard to take a statement like "the show is cowardly, even homophobic" to exclude these three wonderful folks (but particularly JW) from its condemnation, even if that may not have necessarily been DM's intent.

[This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).]

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posted December 18, 2000 11:32                Hi spring,

You (and others) have made the important point that casual viewers won't know that the inequality of rel'ship depiction is not due to the reluctance of the Buffy creators, but because of network restrictions. So from the viewer's perspective, I guess one might think that it *is* the show that is homophobic, or that the show is condoning the inequality.

But all I'm saying is that observing that there is inequality or hypocrisy somewhere, like a tv show, does not automatically enable someone to correctly identify the source of the bigotry. To go back to my earlier example, would it be fair to call Idgie and Ruth's cafe in Fried Green Tomatoes "racist" because they didn't serve black patrons in the front of the store? I hardly think so; if they did, they'd have been shut down, or worse. Perhaps a casual visitor to the town might conclude that the owners of the establishment are racist, but I think that would be wrong. Yes, the inequality of treatment -- a *manifestation* of racism -- is there in their cafe; but the racist attitudes and ideology rest not with them, but with others (the Klan, the legal and political power structures etc.).

Sure, as you say, "someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings", but personally I think it's unfair to lay that at the feet of the show. Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part.

Anyway, as I said, I enjoyed the rest of Donna Minkowitz's article, and I appreciate the general spirit of it. But on the other side of the coin, there *have* been battles that Joss Whedon has fought for W/T, not to mention the public statements of AB and AH; I just think that it's hard to take a statement like "the show is cowardly, even homophobic" to exclude these three wonderful folks (but particularly JW) from its condemnation, even if that may not have necessarily been DM's intent.

[This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).]IP: LoggedSpringMs. Moderator
Fantastico



Posts: 3271
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Ms. Moderator
Fantastico
posted December 18, 2000 11:44               


Len:
"One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended."

Yeah, I know how I can come across sounding like that, but of course I would prefer an asexual neutered relationship than to none at all. I still think that Minkowitz has a legitimate point, but in the grand scheme of things it is better to have what we have now than to not have anything at all. I have also found that Minkowitz makes incendiary statements that are very much based on a snapshot of the present situation, much like her famed 'Willow needs to be Gay' article, which was pushing for more at a time when we all thought W/T would remain subtextual forever. Minkowitz takes a snapshot and says 'Look what's wrong here!' and demands more...which is why I still think the 'homophobic' statement works. Well it works for me anyway, but I can see how it does not work for a lot of people. I'm not so much into having them kiss, which I think is a transitory thing, but have W/T look like they feel desire or passionate towards each other (like in the 'Willow hand' scene). I don't need to see them have sex, but maybe reference it once in a while shouldn't be such a burden.
W/T is still breakthrough TV even if it's core message is being undermined by corporate censorship - though of course the benefits far, far, FAR outweigh the little itty, bitty, teeny, weeny, miniscule disadvantages.

LEN:
"I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond."

Hee. Hee. Hee. (wiping tears from eyes) Oh Len, you are so freakin' funny! You. Post. More. Now.

Editing to respond to wolliw:
"Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part. "

Again, it depends on what 'is' is. An argument can be made that 'Will & Grace' is a homophobic show in the unrealistic ways it portrays Will's life or Jack's life and how it plays into stereotypes for laughs, etc...Since homophobia is present in society, anything with that deals with 'homo-' touches base with that. Your FGT analogy is very good in regards to that. But I'm saying here is that the use of the word 'homophobic' is valid, though you disagree. The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent. Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm making sense here.
Let's say we go back to the 50's (or 1800's, whatever time suits you in the context of pre-feminism). Let's say we have a TV show in which a woman is shown as a professional, accomplished, and independent. In trying to portray that woman as a feminist, the creators of the show will invariably depict this person in ways which are stereotypical and/or anti-feminist. Sure the intent is to portray a woman in a positive, feminist light, but due to the nature of society at the time (or what have you) that will not be the only message that is conveyed. The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic.
Ugh. Too much coffee this morning, methinks.

[This message has been edited by Spring (edited December 18, 2000).]

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posted December 18, 2000 11:44                Len:
"One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended."

Yeah, I know how I can come across sounding like that, but of course I would prefer an asexual neutered relationship than to none at all. I still think that Minkowitz has a legitimate point, but in the grand scheme of things it is better to have what we have now than to not have anything at all. I have also found that Minkowitz makes incendiary statements that are very much based on a snapshot of the present situation, much like her famed 'Willow needs to be Gay' article, which was pushing for more at a time when we all thought W/T would remain subtextual forever. Minkowitz takes a snapshot and says 'Look what's wrong here!' and demands more...which is why I still think the 'homophobic' statement works. Well it works for me anyway, but I can see how it does not work for a lot of people. I'm not so much into having them kiss, which I think is a transitory thing, but have W/T look like they feel desire or passionate towards each other (like in the 'Willow hand' scene). I don't need to see them have sex, but maybe reference it once in a while shouldn't be such a burden.
W/T is still breakthrough TV even if it's core message is being undermined by corporate censorship - though of course the benefits far, far, FAR outweigh the little itty, bitty, teeny, weeny, miniscule disadvantages.

LEN:
"I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond."

Hee. Hee. Hee. (wiping tears from eyes) Oh Len, you are so freakin' funny! You. Post. More. Now.

Editing to respond to wolliw:
"Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part. "

Again, it depends on what 'is' is. An argument can be made that 'Will & Grace' is a homophobic show in the unrealistic ways it portrays Will's life or Jack's life and how it plays into stereotypes for laughs, etc...Since homophobia is present in society, anything with that deals with 'homo-' touches base with that. Your FGT analogy is very good in regards to that. But I'm saying here is that the use of the word 'homophobic' is valid, though you disagree. The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent. Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm making sense here.
Let's say we go back to the 50's (or 1800's, whatever time suits you in the context of pre-feminism). Let's say we have a TV show in which a woman is shown as a professional, accomplished, and independent. In trying to portray that woman as a feminist, the creators of the show will invariably depict this person in ways which are stereotypical and/or anti-feminist. Sure the intent is to portray a woman in a positive, feminist light, but due to the nature of society at the time (or what have you) that will not be the only message that is conveyed. The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic.
Ugh. Too much coffee this morning, methinks.

[This message has been edited by Spring (edited December 18, 2000).]IP: LoggedwolliwCool Monster Fighter


Posts: 286
Registered: Nov 2000
posted December 18, 2000 12:22               


Hi Spring,

What an invigorating discussion – who needs coffee ;-)?

OK, you say:
“The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent.”

and:
“The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic.”

I do agree that the postmodern perspective which downplays intent is valid to a degree for the reasons you mention; partly because everything is supposedly inextricably intertwined, a la the paradox of dualism which Derrida deconstructs (one part is never truly without the other and all that), so you can't ever really escape what you are trying to. My personal viewpoint, though, is that intent *does* matter, and as much as we can, we should take it into consideration (people get very upset, rightfully, if you mistake their intent, after all).

However, if one's definitions of “homophobia”, “racism” and so on require only the presence of matter that could be *read* as homophobic, racist, etc., then I guess I can see where Donna Minkowitz's use of the label “homophobic” for the show is coming from. Still disagree on the usage though!

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posted December 18, 2000 12:22                Hi Spring,

What an invigorating discussion – who needs coffee ;-)?

OK, you say:
“The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent.”

and:
“The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic.”

I do agree that the postmodern perspective which downplays intent is valid to a degree for the reasons you mention; partly because everything is supposedly inextricably intertwined, a la the paradox of dualism which Derrida deconstructs (one part is never truly without the other and all that), so you can't ever really escape what you are trying to. My personal viewpoint, though, is that intent *does* matter, and as much as we can, we should take it into consideration (people get very upset, rightfully, if you mistake their intent, after all).

However, if one's definitions of “homophobia”, “racism” and so on require only the presence of matter that could be *read* as homophobic, racist, etc., then I guess I can see where Donna Minkowitz's use of the label “homophobic” for the show is coming from. Still disagree on the usage though!
IP: LoggedaprilGay Now!


Posts: 1748
Registered: Oct 2000
posted December 18, 2000 12:56               


my god, we're getting into derrida, dualism and deconstruction now...i'm frightened. very frightened.

i'm sure that all of us, including joss, aly and amber, are guilty of harboring some sort of homophobia of the subtle, unintentional, internalized kind. in a society where heterosexuality is highly priviliged and accepted as the norm, this is unavoidable.

however, i think that the WB's ban of a w/t kiss qualifies as blatant, overt, homophobia. whatever their motivations for instituting this ban (fear of losing viewers/advertisers/money), it is basically a statement on the part of the WB that they feel there is something wrong with willow and tara kissing, wrong enough to not want to show it on television. it doesn't matter if the WB thinks it's wrong because it's immoral, or whether it simply thinks it's wrong because showing it might lead to a lack of viewership and subsequent loss of advertising dollars.

the bottom line is, the WB has forcefully indicated that expressions of teenage homosexuality are something which they do not want their viewing public to see on BtVS, and they feel strongly enough about this to place restrictions on the show's writers and producers.

when you add to this information the fact that the WB *has* allowed same-sex kisses on its other shows, i would call their ban of a w/t kiss a cowardly move indeed. it is a move motivated by the fear that showing a kiss between two characters in a loving same-sex relationship, rather than a one-sided, unreciprocated kiss, will send an undesired message to viewers: the message that it is possible for teens to be in caring, passionate, healthy gay relationships, and that such relationships are okay. considering that it is *this* message the WB is working so hard to repress, rather than the painful, tortured message of a "dawson's creek"-type kiss, i think that homophobia is a very apt term to use.

i did not mean to rant so much about this; i'll shut up now.

IP: Logged

posted December 18, 2000 12:56                my god, we're getting into derrida, dualism and deconstruction now...i'm frightened. very frightened.

i'm sure that all of us, including joss, aly and amber, are guilty of harboring some sort of homophobia of the subtle, unintentional, internalized kind. in a society where heterosexuality is highly priviliged and accepted as the norm, this is unavoidable.

however, i think that the WB's ban of a w/t kiss qualifies as blatant, overt, homophobia. whatever their motivations for instituting this ban (fear of losing viewers/advertisers/money), it is basically a statement on the part of the WB that they feel there is something wrong with willow and tara kissing, wrong enough to not want to show it on television. it doesn't matter if the WB thinks it's wrong because it's immoral, or whether it simply thinks it's wrong because showing it might lead to a lack of viewership and subsequent loss of advertising dollars.

the bottom line is, the WB has forcefully indicated that expressions of teenage homosexuality are something which they do not want their viewing public to see on BtVS, and they feel strongly enough about this to place restrictions on the show's writers and producers.

when you add to this information the fact that the WB *has* allowed same-sex kisses on its other shows, i would call their ban of a w/t kiss a cowardly move indeed. it is a move motivated by the fear that showing a kiss between two characters in a loving same-sex relationship, rather than a one-sided, unreciprocated kiss, will send an undesired message to viewers: the message that it is possible for teens to be in caring, passionate, healthy gay relationships, and that such relationships are okay. considering that it is *this* message the WB is working so hard to repress, rather than the painful, tortured message of a "dawson's creek"-type kiss, i think that homophobia is a very apt term to use.

i did not mean to rant so much about this; i'll shut up now.

quote:
Originally posted by wolliw:
Hey,
But I still think that accusations of homophobia, like of racism and other bigotry, should not be made lightly

I have to disagree. I totally believe Joss/Amber/Aly/Sara et al are not homophobic in the least. But the decisions what to show and not show are homophobia , not by Joss and even not by WB. But what scares the WD into basic a cowedly decisions is fear of Homophobia. Of course Joss has to tow the line, and WB obey its sponsers. By the reason why is homphobic..

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wolliw
Cool Monster Fighter


Posts: 286
Registered: Nov 2000
posted December 18, 2000 08:37               
Hi drlloyd,

You say:
"... Of course Joss has to tow the line, and WB obey its sponsers. By the reason why is homphobic."

I agree there's homophobia at fault somewhere -- just not that *the show* is the culprit! Which is what Donna Minkowitz claims in her otherwise entertaining and on-the-ball article.

As you say:
"what scares the WD into basic a cowedly decisions is fear of Homophobia."

... can't disagree with you there - but that's not what the original article was saying.

[This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).]

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Spring
Ms. Moderator
Fantastico



Posts: 3271
Registered: Oct 2000
posted December 18, 2000 10:09               
(IN John Wayne voice)Why....let me step in here...
quote:
The show is cowardly, even homophobic, about the girls' literal sexual life. For months, all they did was cast spells, allowing some viewers to insist that nothing was going on but salutes to the Goddess. They're an open couple now, but we've never seen them kiss. Buffy and military boyfriend Riley practically f u c k on-screen, Willow and Tara hug and light candles. It makes me crazy.

I guess it depends on how you define homophobia. I take this statement to mean that the lack of physicality in W/T's relationship tells the audience that open touching and overt displays of sexual attraction between 2 people of the same sex is *wrong*. Whether or not it is the intent of TPTB is not the question here if you are oblivious to the politics and background of the programme and are in reality just an average viewer who tunes in regularly every week and might buy a magazine occasionally if SMG is on the cover.
What the depiction of W/T conveys to the teen population is that gay is OK- but don't show it. It also says gay is OK - but it's just mainly cute and fuzzy, devoid of any sexuality that has bite. A kind of neutered sexuality.
So is this homophobia? Yes, because homophobia is fear of homosexuality, and here obviously someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings. What Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays.
I don't think that Minkowitz is out of line, but she perhaps should've recognized that Joss's hands are tied.

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Gudanov
Doll's eye crystal


Posts: 94
Registered: Dec 2000
posted December 18, 2000 10:21               
Speaking of Salon, it's interesting that in their message area called Table Talk the Buffy-related threads dominate in traffic over everything else in the TV section. A lot of Buffy watchers have been sucked in by Salon articles. Myself included.

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Hugin
Ms. Moderator
Fantastico



Posts: 787
Registered: Sep 2000
posted December 18, 2000 11:16               
quote:
Originally posted by Spring:
[B

What Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays.
[/B]


I have to disagree with you (nee Minkowitz) on this point Spring. Assuming that Joss would genuinely like to show more W/T affection and intimacy that he's being currently allowed, I think the "Highlighted Double Standard" approach is one of the few weapons available to him.

Over and over I've seen folks, even folks who weren't particularly enamored of W/T, saying "Oh for crying out loud, that was just silly, let them kiss already." They may not like W/T per se, but within the context of the relationship and the show, even they can see, and be annoyed by, the double standard. And I've heard casual, non-fandom savvy viewers say the same thing.

It would seem that some of the W/T scenes are shot in multiple versions, which indicates to me that we'd be seeing nicer stuff if not for active censorship on the WB's part.

I suppose Joss could raise a bigger stink, push as hard as he possibly could, but I don't know that the results would actually be to our liking. There's been a pervasive sense throughout the run of the show that the WB didn't quite get it, I don't know how damaging a full on war would be. One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended. Or, one could argue that if the WB is uncomfortable with W/T, then to be equitable, all the intimacy on the show should be toned down, and in fact, why don't we take out all the possible objectionable content.

Now, I'm being sort of a jerk on purpose here. But really, compared to no W/T at all (which you know was a possibility, Joss had to fight for the very idea), or compared to a defanged (har har) show overall, I'm willing to grit my teeth, as long as I have a sense that Joss continues to work behind the scenes to make things more fair, which I believe he is. I would have never ever ever guessed we'd see in-bed snuggles based on last season. No way. And I keep having to remind myself that even what we've had so far (aside from the kiss) is still incredibly rare, if not breakthrough, for network TV. Take away W/T. That leaves how many open, canonical, ongoing relationships on TV, involving (sorry Felicity, Friends, etc) a main character?

I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond.

As for The Kiss...it would seem to be the keystone of the WB's corporate cowardice. I suspect that some suit backed him or herself into a corner, and is hunkered down in The Kiss like a bunker. It reminds me (in a weird way, bear with me) of the censorship laws surrounding some "adult" anime. Under those tortured guidelines, a penis cannot be shown penetrating a vagina (actually, I don't think you can show a penis at all). So, one of the techniques the makers of these things use to get around this is to have...oh, a gross variety of other items, standing in for the penis in sex scenes. So, because of a small, dumb bit of censorship, you get a much more prurient result. Happily, Joss has better taste, there will be no naughty tentacles on Buffy. But I much prefer his approach to, say, oh, Willow switching bodies with Xander and kissing Tara in Xander's body *cough*. Do folks want much more "spells as sex"? Because I got the impression, much as folks liked the flaming O last year, that they were getting kind of tired of that. That's the other path.

Dear god I talk to much.

-len

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wolliw
Cool Monster Fighter


Posts: 286
Registered: Nov 2000
posted December 18, 2000 11:32               
Hi spring,

You (and others) have made the important point that casual viewers won't know that the inequality of rel'ship depiction is not due to the reluctance of the Buffy creators, but because of network restrictions. So from the viewer's perspective, I guess one might think that it *is* the show that is homophobic, or that the show is condoning the inequality.

But all I'm saying is that observing that there is inequality or hypocrisy somewhere, like a tv show, does not automatically enable someone to correctly identify the source of the bigotry. To go back to my earlier example, would it be fair to call Idgie and Ruth's cafe in Fried Green Tomatoes "racist" because they didn't serve black patrons in the front of the store? I hardly think so; if they did, they'd have been shut down, or worse. Perhaps a casual visitor to the town might conclude that the owners of the establishment are racist, but I think that would be wrong. Yes, the inequality of treatment -- a *manifestation* of racism -- is there in their cafe; but the racist attitudes and ideology rest not with them, but with others (the Klan, the legal and political power structures etc.).

Sure, as you say, "someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings", but personally I think it's unfair to lay that at the feet of the show. Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part.

Anyway, as I said, I enjoyed the rest of Donna Minkowitz's article, and I appreciate the general spirit of it. But on the other side of the coin, there *have* been battles that Joss Whedon has fought for W/T, not to mention the public statements of AB and AH; I just think that it's hard to take a statement like "the show is cowardly, even homophobic" to exclude these three wonderful folks (but particularly JW) from its condemnation, even if that may not have necessarily been DM's intent.

[This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).]

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Spring
Ms. Moderator
Fantastico



Posts: 3271
Registered: Oct 2000
posted December 18, 2000 11:44               
Len:
"One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended."

Yeah, I know how I can come across sounding like that, but of course I would prefer an asexual neutered relationship than to none at all. I still think that Minkowitz has a legitimate point, but in the grand scheme of things it is better to have what we have now than to not have anything at all. I have also found that Minkowitz makes incendiary statements that are very much based on a snapshot of the present situation, much like her famed 'Willow needs to be Gay' article, which was pushing for more at a time when we all thought W/T would remain subtextual forever. Minkowitz takes a snapshot and says 'Look what's wrong here!' and demands more...which is why I still think the 'homophobic' statement works. Well it works for me anyway, but I can see how it does not work for a lot of people. I'm not so much into having them kiss, which I think is a transitory thing, but have W/T look like they feel desire or passionate towards each other (like in the 'Willow hand' scene). I don't need to see them have sex, but maybe reference it once in a while shouldn't be such a burden.
W/T is still breakthrough TV even if it's core message is being undermined by corporate censorship - though of course the benefits far, far, FAR outweigh the little itty, bitty, teeny, weeny, miniscule disadvantages.

LEN:
"I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond."

Hee. Hee. Hee. (wiping tears from eyes) Oh Len, you are so freakin' funny! You. Post. More. Now.

Editing to respond to wolliw:
"Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part. "

Again, it depends on what 'is' is. An argument can be made that 'Will & Grace' is a homophobic show in the unrealistic ways it portrays Will's life or Jack's life and how it plays into stereotypes for laughs, etc...Since homophobia is present in society, anything with that deals with 'homo-' touches base with that. Your FGT analogy is very good in regards to that. But I'm saying here is that the use of the word 'homophobic' is valid, though you disagree. The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent. Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm making sense here.
Let's say we go back to the 50's (or 1800's, whatever time suits you in the context of pre-feminism). Let's say we have a TV show in which a woman is shown as a professional, accomplished, and independent. In trying to portray that woman as a feminist, the creators of the show will invariably depict this person in ways which are stereotypical and/or anti-feminist. Sure the intent is to portray a woman in a positive, feminist light, but due to the nature of society at the time (or what have you) that will not be the only message that is conveyed. The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic.
Ugh. Too much coffee this morning, methinks.

[This message has been edited by Spring (edited December 18, 2000).]

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wolliw
Cool Monster Fighter


Posts: 286
Registered: Nov 2000
posted December 18, 2000 12:22               
Hi Spring,

What an invigorating discussion – who needs coffee ;-)?

OK, you say:
“The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent.”

and:
“The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic.”

I do agree that the postmodern perspective which downplays intent is valid to a degree for the reasons you mention; partly because everything is supposedly inextricably intertwined, a la the paradox of dualism which Derrida deconstructs (one part is never truly without the other and all that), so you can't ever really escape what you are trying to. My personal viewpoint, though, is that intent *does* matter, and as much as we can, we should take it into consideration (people get very upset, rightfully, if you mistake their intent, after all).

However, if one's definitions of “homophobia”, “racism” and so on require only the presence of matter that could be *read* as homophobic, racist, etc., then I guess I can see where Donna Minkowitz's use of the label “homophobic” for the show is coming from. Still disagree on the usage though!

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april
Gay Now!


Posts: 1748
Registered: Oct 2000
posted December 18, 2000 12:56               
my god, we're getting into derrida, dualism and deconstruction now...i'm frightened. very frightened.

i'm sure that all of us, including joss, aly and amber, are guilty of harboring some sort of homophobia of the subtle, unintentional, internalized kind. in a society where heterosexuality is highly priviliged and accepted as the norm, this is unavoidable.

however, i think that the WB's ban of a w/t kiss qualifies as blatant, overt, homophobia. whatever their motivations for instituting this ban (fear of losing viewers/advertisers/money), it is basically a statement on the part of the WB that they feel there is something wrong with willow and tara kissing, wrong enough to not want to show it on television. it doesn't matter if the WB thinks it's wrong because it's immoral, or whether it simply thinks it's wrong because showing it might lead to a lack of viewership and subsequent loss of advertising dollars.

the bottom line is, the WB has forcefully indicated that expressions of teenage homosexuality are something which they do not want their viewing public to see on BtVS, and they feel strongly enough about this to place restrictions on the show's writers and producers.

when you add to this information the fact that the WB *has* allowed same-sex kisses on its other shows, i would call their ban of a w/t kiss a cowardly move indeed. it is a move motivated by the fear that showing a kiss between two characters in a loving same-sex relationship, rather than a one-sided, unreciprocated kiss, will send an undesired message to viewers: the message that it is possible for teens to be in caring, passionate, healthy gay relationships, and that such relationships are okay. considering that it is *this* message the WB is working so hard to repress, rather than the painful, tortured message of a "dawson's creek"-type kiss, i think that homophobia is a very apt term to use.

i did not mean to rant so much about this; i'll shut up now.

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Top
  
 
 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 6:37 am 
Hi drlloyd,

You say:
"... Of course Joss has to tow the line, and WB obey its sponsers. By the reason why is homphobic."

I agree there's homophobia at fault somewhere -- just not that *the show* is the culprit! Which is what Donna Minkowitz claims in her otherwise entertaining and on-the-ball article.

As you say:
"what scares the WD into basic a cowedly decisions is fear of Homophobia."

... can't disagree with you there - but that's not what the original article was saying.

[This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).]



Top
  
 
 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 8:09 am 
(IN John Wayne voice)Why....let me step in here...
quote:
The show is cowardly, even homophobic, about the girls' literal sexual life. For months, all they did was cast spells, allowing some viewers to insist that nothing was going on but salutes to the Goddess. They're an open couple now, but we've never seen them kiss. Buffy and military boyfriend Riley practically f u c k on-screen, Willow and Tara hug and light candles. It makes me crazy.

I guess it depends on how you define homophobia. I take this statement to mean that the lack of physicality in W/T's relationship tells the audience that open touching and overt displays of sexual attraction between 2 people of the same sex is *wrong*. Whether or not it is the intent of TPTB is not the question here if you are oblivious to the politics and background of the programme and are in reality just an average viewer who tunes in regularly every week and might buy a magazine occasionally if SMG is on the cover.
What the depiction of W/T conveys to the teen population is that gay is OK- but don't show it. It also says gay is OK - but it's just mainly cute and fuzzy, devoid of any sexuality that has bite. A kind of neutered sexuality.
So is this homophobia? Yes, because homophobia is fear of homosexuality, and here obviously someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings. What Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays.
I don't think that Minkowitz is out of line, but she perhaps should've recognized that Joss's hands are tied.
quote:



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 8:21 am 
Speaking of Salon, it's interesting that in their message area called Table Talk the Buffy-related threads dominate in traffic over everything else in the TV section. A lot of Buffy watchers have been sucked in by Salon articles. Myself included.


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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:16 am 
quote:
Originally posted by Spring:
[B

What Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays.
[/B]


I have to disagree with you (nee Minkowitz) on this point Spring. Assuming that Joss would genuinely like to show more W/T affection and intimacy that he's being currently allowed, I think the "Highlighted Double Standard" approach is one of the few weapons available to him.

Over and over I've seen folks, even folks who weren't particularly enamored of W/T, saying "Oh for crying out loud, that was just silly, let them kiss already." They may not like W/T per se, but within the context of the relationship and the show, even they can see, and be annoyed by, the double standard. And I've heard casual, non-fandom savvy viewers say the same thing.

It would seem that some of the W/T scenes are shot in multiple versions, which indicates to me that we'd be seeing nicer stuff if not for active censorship on the WB's part.

I suppose Joss could raise a bigger stink, push as hard as he possibly could, but I don't know that the results would actually be to our liking. There's been a pervasive sense throughout the run of the show that the WB didn't quite get it, I don't know how damaging a full on war would be. One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended. Or, one could argue that if the WB is uncomfortable with W/T, then to be equitable, all the intimacy on the show should be toned down, and in fact, why don't we take out all the possible objectionable content.

Now, I'm being sort of a jerk on purpose here. But really, compared to no W/T at all (which you know was a possibility, Joss had to fight for the very idea), or compared to a defanged (har har) show overall, I'm willing to grit my teeth, as long as I have a sense that Joss continues to work behind the scenes to make things more fair, which I believe he is. I would have never ever ever guessed we'd see in-bed snuggles based on last season. No way. And I keep having to remind myself that even what we've had so far (aside from the kiss) is still incredibly rare, if not breakthrough, for network TV. Take away W/T. That leaves how many open, canonical, ongoing relationships on TV, involving (sorry Felicity, Friends, etc) a main character?

I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond.

As for The Kiss...it would seem to be the keystone of the WB's corporate cowardice. I suspect that some suit backed him or herself into a corner, and is hunkered down in The Kiss like a bunker. It reminds me (in a weird way, bear with me) of the censorship laws surrounding some "adult" anime. Under those tortured guidelines, a penis cannot be shown penetrating a vagina (actually, I don't think you can show a penis at all). So, one of the techniques the makers of these things use to get around this is to have...oh, a gross variety of other items, standing in for the penis in sex scenes. So, because of a small, dumb bit of censorship, you get a much more prurient result. Happily, Joss has better taste, there will be no naughty tentacles on Buffy. But I much prefer his approach to, say, oh, Willow switching bodies with Xander and kissing Tara in Xander's body *cough*. Do folks want much more "spells as sex"? Because I got the impression, much as folks liked the flaming O last year, that they were getting kind of tired of that. That's the other path.

Dear god I talk to much.

-lenquote:



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:32 am 
Hi spring,

You (and others) have made the important point that casual viewers won't know that the inequality of rel'ship depiction is not due to the reluctance of the Buffy creators, but because of network restrictions. So from the viewer's perspective, I guess one might think that it *is* the show that is homophobic, or that the show is condoning the inequality.

But all I'm saying is that observing that there is inequality or hypocrisy somewhere, like a tv show, does not automatically enable someone to correctly identify the source of the bigotry. To go back to my earlier example, would it be fair to call Idgie and Ruth's cafe in Fried Green Tomatoes "racist" because they didn't serve black patrons in the front of the store? I hardly think so; if they did, they'd have been shut down, or worse. Perhaps a casual visitor to the town might conclude that the owners of the establishment are racist, but I think that would be wrong. Yes, the inequality of treatment -- a *manifestation* of racism -- is there in their cafe; but the racist attitudes and ideology rest not with them, but with others (the Klan, the legal and political power structures etc.).

Sure, as you say, "someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings", but personally I think it's unfair to lay that at the feet of the show. Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part.

Anyway, as I said, I enjoyed the rest of Donna Minkowitz's article, and I appreciate the general spirit of it. But on the other side of the coin, there *have* been battles that Joss Whedon has fought for W/T, not to mention the public statements of AB and AH; I just think that it's hard to take a statement like "the show is cowardly, even homophobic" to exclude these three wonderful folks (but particularly JW) from its condemnation, even if that may not have necessarily been DM's intent.

[This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).]



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:44 am 
Len:
"One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended."

Yeah, I know how I can come across sounding like that, but of course I would prefer an asexual neutered relationship than to none at all. I still think that Minkowitz has a legitimate point, but in the grand scheme of things it is better to have what we have now than to not have anything at all. I have also found that Minkowitz makes incendiary statements that are very much based on a snapshot of the present situation, much like her famed 'Willow needs to be Gay' article, which was pushing for more at a time when we all thought W/T would remain subtextual forever. Minkowitz takes a snapshot and says 'Look what's wrong here!' and demands more...which is why I still think the 'homophobic' statement works. Well it works for me anyway, but I can see how it does not work for a lot of people. I'm not so much into having them kiss, which I think is a transitory thing, but have W/T look like they feel desire or passionate towards each other (like in the 'Willow hand' scene). I don't need to see them have sex, but maybe reference it once in a while shouldn't be such a burden.
W/T is still breakthrough TV even if it's core message is being undermined by corporate censorship - though of course the benefits far, far, FAR outweigh the little itty, bitty, teeny, weeny, miniscule disadvantages.

LEN:
"I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond."

Hee. Hee. Hee. (wiping tears from eyes) Oh Len, you are so freakin' funny! You. Post. More. Now.

Editing to respond to wolliw:
"Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part. "

Again, it depends on what 'is' is. An argument can be made that 'Will & Grace' is a homophobic show in the unrealistic ways it portrays Will's life or Jack's life and how it plays into stereotypes for laughs, etc...Since homophobia is present in society, anything with that deals with 'homo-' touches base with that. Your FGT analogy is very good in regards to that. But I'm saying here is that the use of the word 'homophobic' is valid, though you disagree. The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent. Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm making sense here.
Let's say we go back to the 50's (or 1800's, whatever time suits you in the context of pre-feminism). Let's say we have a TV show in which a woman is shown as a professional, accomplished, and independent. In trying to portray that woman as a feminist, the creators of the show will invariably depict this person in ways which are stereotypical and/or anti-feminist. Sure the intent is to portray a woman in a positive, feminist light, but due to the nature of society at the time (or what have you) that will not be the only message that is conveyed. The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic.
Ugh. Too much coffee this morning, methinks.

[This message has been edited by Spring (edited December 18, 2000).]



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:22 am 
Hi Spring,

What an invigorating discussion – who needs coffee ;-)?

OK, you say:
“The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent.”

and:
“The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic.”

I do agree that the postmodern perspective which downplays intent is valid to a degree for the reasons you mention; partly because everything is supposedly inextricably intertwined, a la the paradox of dualism which Derrida deconstructs (one part is never truly without the other and all that), so you can't ever really escape what you are trying to. My personal viewpoint, though, is that intent *does* matter, and as much as we can, we should take it into consideration (people get very upset, rightfully, if you mistake their intent, after all).

However, if one's definitions of “homophobia”, “racism” and so on require only the presence of matter that could be *read* as homophobic, racist, etc., then I guess I can see where Donna Minkowitz's use of the label “homophobic” for the show is coming from. Still disagree on the usage though!



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:56 am 
my god, we're getting into derrida, dualism and deconstruction now...i'm frightened. very frightened.

i'm sure that all of us, including joss, aly and amber, are guilty of harboring some sort of homophobia of the subtle, unintentional, internalized kind. in a society where heterosexuality is highly priviliged and accepted as the norm, this is unavoidable.

however, i think that the WB's ban of a w/t kiss qualifies as blatant, overt, homophobia. whatever their motivations for instituting this ban (fear of losing viewers/advertisers/money), it is basically a statement on the part of the WB that they feel there is something wrong with willow and tara kissing, wrong enough to not want to show it on television. it doesn't matter if the WB thinks it's wrong because it's immoral, or whether it simply thinks it's wrong because showing it might lead to a lack of viewership and subsequent loss of advertising dollars.

the bottom line is, the WB has forcefully indicated that expressions of teenage homosexuality are something which they do not want their viewing public to see on BtVS, and they feel strongly enough about this to place restrictions on the show's writers and producers.

when you add to this information the fact that the WB *has* allowed same-sex kisses on its other shows, i would call their ban of a w/t kiss a cowardly move indeed. it is a move motivated by the fear that showing a kiss between two characters in a loving same-sex relationship, rather than a one-sided, unreciprocated kiss, will send an undesired message to viewers: the message that it is possible for teens to be in caring, passionate, healthy gay relationships, and that such relationships are okay. considering that it is *this* message the WB is working so hard to repress, rather than the painful, tortured message of a "dawson's creek"-type kiss, i think that homophobia is a very apt term to use.

i did not mean to rant so much about this; i'll shut up now.



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 11:17 am 
Hey April, I don't mind your ranting, especially not when I agree with all of it.


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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 11:39 am 
I feel Donna's frustration. I understand where she's coming from. She may not know where the edict of no kiss is coming from and that would lead her to say the show is homophobic. I want to believe Joss and I utterly believe Aly but sometimes I have this nagging doubt about this ban. Also it depends on commitment, I don't doubt Joss and a director or two are committed.
Joss has shown time and time again that he is willing to push the envelop each time he writes a new episode. He gave us Hush, electric and magnetic and sexy. Of course he gave us Who Are You, again sexy, with metaphors for actual sex. Restless comes along and we have them in bed with Tara naked. At the time, I was sure that the WB had told him not to show them in the bed together. Restless was his creative way of saying, f u c k you. Then in family, he showed them in bed and in a slow dance. I look forward to his next episode because even though it won't be a w/t ep, he will give us some goodies. I don't think other writers and directors have the same commitment. The desire to push the envelope. They could so easily do it, give us more, but they rarely do.
Who knows why the wb is being an ass. I think it's a combination of a bunch of things, mostly that they target the shows to kids. Tracking down all the new Amber goodies and hanging in the kiddy section of bookstores has really drilled this into my head. Most of the press goes to teen magazines. I think that Buffy would benefit from another network and a different time slot. Maybe Willow can hurry up and turn twenty and they won't be teenage lovers anymore.

------------------
Tara: And see those stars along there? That's the bottom of the pineapple.
Willow: It's big.
Tara: Hence the name.



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 12:06 pm 
Yeah, I think the crux of the disagreement came down not to whether there is homophobia, which there clearly is, but who is most worthy of blame. I think we're pretty unanimous that the WB itself sucks.

One day, maybe after the show is off the air, I'd love to hear really candid comments from Joss and Aly and Amber and the other writers, about how they really felt, and all that went down.

-len



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 12:11 pm 
You said 'sucks'. Heh heh heh.

Then you said 'went down'. Huh huh huh.



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 Post subject: Nerve- W/T Blurb, Donna Minkowitz strikes again
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2000 12:34 pm 
Personally, I think the fact that the show is targeted towards teenagers is even *more* of a reason to remove the censorship that has been placed on Willow and Tara. Even from my limited perspective I know there can be a lot of pain and confusion involved when gay teenagers try to deal with who they are and what they're feeling, and the enforced public ignorance on the subject only makes the situation worse. The story of Willow and Tara can help clear some of that ignorance away - of course, that could be why the WB is so afraid of it.

On the other hand, there could be a silver lining to the WB's restrictions. Intimacy can be scary to a lot young people, gay or straight. It might therefore be better for some members of the audience to see Willow and Tara being all cute and couple-like in a sweet and chaste way. The only hitch is that, as I said in the other thread, the lack of a kiss is becoming increasingly distracting, and I fear that will get in the way of other parts of the relationship I'd like to see explored.



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