|
quote: Originally posted by wolliw: Hey, But I still think that accusations of homophobia, like of racism and other bigotry, should not be made lightly
I have to disagree. I totally believe Joss/Amber/Aly/Sara et al are not homophobic in the least. But the decisions what to show and not show are homophobia , not by Joss and even not by WB. But what scares the WD into basic a cowedly decisions is fear of Homophobia. Of course Joss has to tow the line, and WB obey its sponsers. By the reason why is homphobic..
IP: Logged | wolliw Cool Monster Fighter
Posts: 286 Registered: Nov 2000 | posted December 18, 2000 08:37 Hi drlloyd,You say: "... Of course Joss has to tow the line, and WB obey its sponsers. By the reason why is homphobic." I agree there's homophobia at fault somewhere -- just not that *the show* is the culprit! Which is what Donna Minkowitz claims in her otherwise entertaining and on-the-ball article. As you say: "what scares the WD into basic a cowedly decisions is fear of Homophobia." ... can't disagree with you there - but that's not what the original article was saying. [This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).] IP: Logged | Spring Ms. Moderator Fantastico
Posts: 3271 Registered: Oct 2000 | posted December 18, 2000 10:09 (IN John Wayne voice)Why....let me step in here... quote: The show is cowardly, even homophobic, about the girls' literal sexual life. For months, all they did was cast spells, allowing some viewers to insist that nothing was going on but salutes to the Goddess. They're an open couple now, but we've never seen them kiss. Buffy and military boyfriend Riley practically f u c k on-screen, Willow and Tara hug and light candles. It makes me crazy.
I guess it depends on how you define homophobia. I take this statement to mean that the lack of physicality in W/T's relationship tells the audience that open touching and overt displays of sexual attraction between 2 people of the same sex is *wrong*. Whether or not it is the intent of TPTB is not the question here if you are oblivious to the politics and background of the programme and are in reality just an average viewer who tunes in regularly every week and might buy a magazine occasionally if SMG is on the cover. What the depiction of W/T conveys to the teen population is that gay is OK- but don't show it. It also says gay is OK - but it's just mainly cute and fuzzy, devoid of any sexuality that has bite. A kind of neutered sexuality. So is this homophobia? Yes, because homophobia is fear of homosexuality, and here obviously someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings. What Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays. I don't think that Minkowitz is out of line, but she perhaps should've recognized that Joss's hands are tied. IP: Logged | Gudanov Doll's eye crystal
Posts: 94 Registered: Dec 2000 | posted December 18, 2000 10:21 Speaking of Salon, it's interesting that in their message area called Table Talk the Buffy-related threads dominate in traffic over everything else in the TV section. A lot of Buffy watchers have been sucked in by Salon articles. Myself included.IP: Logged | Hugin Ms. Moderator Fantastico
Posts: 787 Registered: Sep 2000 | posted December 18, 2000 11:16 quote: Originally posted by Spring: [BWhat Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays. [/B]
I have to disagree with you (nee Minkowitz) on this point Spring. Assuming that Joss would genuinely like to show more W/T affection and intimacy that he's being currently allowed, I think the "Highlighted Double Standard" approach is one of the few weapons available to him. Over and over I've seen folks, even folks who weren't particularly enamored of W/T, saying "Oh for crying out loud, that was just silly, let them kiss already." They may not like W/T per se, but within the context of the relationship and the show, even they can see, and be annoyed by, the double standard. And I've heard casual, non-fandom savvy viewers say the same thing. It would seem that some of the W/T scenes are shot in multiple versions, which indicates to me that we'd be seeing nicer stuff if not for active censorship on the WB's part. I suppose Joss could raise a bigger stink, push as hard as he possibly could, but I don't know that the results would actually be to our liking. There's been a pervasive sense throughout the run of the show that the WB didn't quite get it, I don't know how damaging a full on war would be. One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended. Or, one could argue that if the WB is uncomfortable with W/T, then to be equitable, all the intimacy on the show should be toned down, and in fact, why don't we take out all the possible objectionable content. Now, I'm being sort of a jerk on purpose here. But really, compared to no W/T at all (which you know was a possibility, Joss had to fight for the very idea), or compared to a defanged (har har) show overall, I'm willing to grit my teeth, as long as I have a sense that Joss continues to work behind the scenes to make things more fair, which I believe he is. I would have never ever ever guessed we'd see in-bed snuggles based on last season. No way. And I keep having to remind myself that even what we've had so far (aside from the kiss) is still incredibly rare, if not breakthrough, for network TV. Take away W/T. That leaves how many open, canonical, ongoing relationships on TV, involving (sorry Felicity, Friends, etc) a main character? I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond. As for The Kiss...it would seem to be the keystone of the WB's corporate cowardice. I suspect that some suit backed him or herself into a corner, and is hunkered down in The Kiss like a bunker. It reminds me (in a weird way, bear with me) of the censorship laws surrounding some "adult" anime. Under those tortured guidelines, a penis cannot be shown penetrating a vagina (actually, I don't think you can show a penis at all). So, one of the techniques the makers of these things use to get around this is to have...oh, a gross variety of other items, standing in for the penis in sex scenes. So, because of a small, dumb bit of censorship, you get a much more prurient result. Happily, Joss has better taste, there will be no naughty tentacles on Buffy. But I much prefer his approach to, say, oh, Willow switching bodies with Xander and kissing Tara in Xander's body *cough*. Do folks want much more "spells as sex"? Because I got the impression, much as folks liked the flaming O last year, that they were getting kind of tired of that. That's the other path. Dear god I talk to much. -len IP: Logged | wolliw Cool Monster Fighter
Posts: 286 Registered: Nov 2000 | posted December 18, 2000 11:32 Hi spring,You (and others) have made the important point that casual viewers won't know that the inequality of rel'ship depiction is not due to the reluctance of the Buffy creators, but because of network restrictions. So from the viewer's perspective, I guess one might think that it *is* the show that is homophobic, or that the show is condoning the inequality. But all I'm saying is that observing that there is inequality or hypocrisy somewhere, like a tv show, does not automatically enable someone to correctly identify the source of the bigotry. To go back to my earlier example, would it be fair to call Idgie and Ruth's cafe in Fried Green Tomatoes "racist" because they didn't serve black patrons in the front of the store? I hardly think so; if they did, they'd have been shut down, or worse. Perhaps a casual visitor to the town might conclude that the owners of the establishment are racist, but I think that would be wrong. Yes, the inequality of treatment -- a *manifestation* of racism -- is there in their cafe; but the racist attitudes and ideology rest not with them, but with others (the Klan, the legal and political power structures etc.). Sure, as you say, "someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings", but personally I think it's unfair to lay that at the feet of the show. Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part. Anyway, as I said, I enjoyed the rest of Donna Minkowitz's article, and I appreciate the general spirit of it. But on the other side of the coin, there *have* been battles that Joss Whedon has fought for W/T, not to mention the public statements of AB and AH; I just think that it's hard to take a statement like "the show is cowardly, even homophobic" to exclude these three wonderful folks (but particularly JW) from its condemnation, even if that may not have necessarily been DM's intent. [This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).] IP: Logged | Spring Ms. Moderator Fantastico
Posts: 3271 Registered: Oct 2000 | posted December 18, 2000 11:44 Len: "One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended."Yeah, I know how I can come across sounding like that, but of course I would prefer an asexual neutered relationship than to none at all. I still think that Minkowitz has a legitimate point, but in the grand scheme of things it is better to have what we have now than to not have anything at all. I have also found that Minkowitz makes incendiary statements that are very much based on a snapshot of the present situation, much like her famed 'Willow needs to be Gay' article, which was pushing for more at a time when we all thought W/T would remain subtextual forever. Minkowitz takes a snapshot and says 'Look what's wrong here!' and demands more...which is why I still think the 'homophobic' statement works. Well it works for me anyway, but I can see how it does not work for a lot of people. I'm not so much into having them kiss, which I think is a transitory thing, but have W/T look like they feel desire or passionate towards each other (like in the 'Willow hand' scene). I don't need to see them have sex, but maybe reference it once in a while shouldn't be such a burden. W/T is still breakthrough TV even if it's core message is being undermined by corporate censorship - though of course the benefits far, far, FAR outweigh the little itty, bitty, teeny, weeny, miniscule disadvantages. LEN: "I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond." Hee. Hee. Hee. (wiping tears from eyes) Oh Len, you are so freakin' funny! You. Post. More. Now. Editing to respond to wolliw: "Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part. " Again, it depends on what 'is' is. An argument can be made that 'Will & Grace' is a homophobic show in the unrealistic ways it portrays Will's life or Jack's life and how it plays into stereotypes for laughs, etc...Since homophobia is present in society, anything with that deals with 'homo-' touches base with that. Your FGT analogy is very good in regards to that. But I'm saying here is that the use of the word 'homophobic' is valid, though you disagree. The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent. Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm making sense here. Let's say we go back to the 50's (or 1800's, whatever time suits you in the context of pre-feminism). Let's say we have a TV show in which a woman is shown as a professional, accomplished, and independent. In trying to portray that woman as a feminist, the creators of the show will invariably depict this person in ways which are stereotypical and/or anti-feminist. Sure the intent is to portray a woman in a positive, feminist light, but due to the nature of society at the time (or what have you) that will not be the only message that is conveyed. The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic. Ugh. Too much coffee this morning, methinks. [This message has been edited by Spring (edited December 18, 2000).] IP: Logged | wolliw Cool Monster Fighter
Posts: 286 Registered: Nov 2000 | posted December 18, 2000 12:22 Hi Spring,What an invigorating discussion – who needs coffee ? OK, you say: “The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent.” and: “The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic.” I do agree that the postmodern perspective which downplays intent is valid to a degree for the reasons you mention; partly because everything is supposedly inextricably intertwined, a la the paradox of dualism which Derrida deconstructs (one part is never truly without the other and all that), so you can't ever really escape what you are trying to. My personal viewpoint, though, is that intent *does* matter, and as much as we can, we should take it into consideration (people get very upset, rightfully, if you mistake their intent, after all). However, if one's definitions of “homophobia”, “racism” and so on require only the presence of matter that could be *read* as homophobic, racist, etc., then I guess I can see where Donna Minkowitz's use of the label “homophobic” for the show is coming from. Still disagree on the usage though!
IP: Logged | april Gay Now!
Posts: 1748 Registered: Oct 2000 | posted December 18, 2000 12:56 my god, we're getting into derrida, dualism and deconstruction now...i'm frightened. very frightened.i'm sure that all of us, including joss, aly and amber, are guilty of harboring some sort of homophobia of the subtle, unintentional, internalized kind. in a society where heterosexuality is highly priviliged and accepted as the norm, this is unavoidable. however, i think that the WB's ban of a w/t kiss qualifies as blatant, overt, homophobia. whatever their motivations for instituting this ban (fear of losing viewers/advertisers/money), it is basically a statement on the part of the WB that they feel there is something wrong with willow and tara kissing, wrong enough to not want to show it on television. it doesn't matter if the WB thinks it's wrong because it's immoral, or whether it simply thinks it's wrong because showing it might lead to a lack of viewership and subsequent loss of advertising dollars. the bottom line is, the WB has forcefully indicated that expressions of teenage homosexuality are something which they do not want their viewing public to see on BtVS, and they feel strongly enough about this to place restrictions on the show's writers and producers. when you add to this information the fact that the WB *has* allowed same-sex kisses on its other shows, i would call their ban of a w/t kiss a cowardly move indeed. it is a move motivated by the fear that showing a kiss between two characters in a loving same-sex relationship, rather than a one-sided, unreciprocated kiss, will send an undesired message to viewers: the message that it is possible for teens to be in caring, passionate, healthy gay relationships, and that such relationships are okay. considering that it is *this* message the WB is working so hard to repress, rather than the painful, tortured message of a "dawson's creek"-type kiss, i think that homophobia is a very apt term to use. i did not mean to rant so much about this; i'll shut up now. IP: Logged | quote:IP: LoggedwolliwCool Monster Fighter
Posts: 286 Registered: Nov 2000 posted December 18, 2000 08:37 Hi drlloyd,You say: "... Of course Joss has to tow the line, and WB obey its sponsers. By the reason why is homphobic." I agree there's homophobia at fault somewhere -- just not that *the show* is the culprit! Which is what Donna Minkowitz claims in her otherwise entertaining and on-the-ball article. As you say: "what scares the WD into basic a cowedly decisions is fear of Homophobia." ... can't disagree with you there - but that's not what the original article was saying. [This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).] IP: Logged posted December 18, 2000 08:37 Hi drlloyd,You say: "... Of course Joss has to tow the line, and WB obey its sponsers. By the reason why is homphobic." I agree there's homophobia at fault somewhere -- just not that *the show* is the culprit! Which is what Donna Minkowitz claims in her otherwise entertaining and on-the-ball article. As you say: "what scares the WD into basic a cowedly decisions is fear of Homophobia." ... can't disagree with you there - but that's not what the original article was saying. [This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).] IP: LoggedSpringMs. Moderator Fantastico
Posts: 3271 Registered: Oct 2000Ms. Moderator Fantastico posted December 18, 2000 10:09 (IN John Wayne voice)Why....let me step in here... quote: The show is cowardly, even homophobic, about the girls' literal sexual life. For months, all they did was cast spells, allowing some viewers to insist that nothing was going on but salutes to the Goddess. They're an open couple now, but we've never seen them kiss. Buffy and military boyfriend Riley practically f u c k on-screen, Willow and Tara hug and light candles. It makes me crazy.
I guess it depends on how you define homophobia. I take this statement to mean that the lack of physicality in W/T's relationship tells the audience that open touching and overt displays of sexual attraction between 2 people of the same sex is *wrong*. Whether or not it is the intent of TPTB is not the question here if you are oblivious to the politics and background of the programme and are in reality just an average viewer who tunes in regularly every week and might buy a magazine occasionally if SMG is on the cover. What the depiction of W/T conveys to the teen population is that gay is OK- but don't show it. It also says gay is OK - but it's just mainly cute and fuzzy, devoid of any sexuality that has bite. A kind of neutered sexuality. So is this homophobia? Yes, because homophobia is fear of homosexuality, and here obviously someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings. What Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays. I don't think that Minkowitz is out of line, but she perhaps should've recognized that Joss's hands are tied. IP: Logged posted December 18, 2000 10:09 (IN John Wayne voice)Why....let me step in here... quote: The show is cowardly, even homophobic, about the girls' literal sexual life. For months, all they did was cast spells, allowing some viewers to insist that nothing was going on but salutes to the Goddess. They're an open couple now, but we've never seen them kiss. Buffy and military boyfriend Riley practically f u c k on-screen, Willow and Tara hug and light candles. It makes me crazy.
I guess it depends on how you define homophobia. I take this statement to mean that the lack of physicality in W/T's relationship tells the audience that open touching and overt displays of sexual attraction between 2 people of the same sex is *wrong*. Whether or not it is the intent of TPTB is not the question here if you are oblivious to the politics and background of the programme and are in reality just an average viewer who tunes in regularly every week and might buy a magazine occasionally if SMG is on the cover. What the depiction of W/T conveys to the teen population is that gay is OK- but don't show it. It also says gay is OK - but it's just mainly cute and fuzzy, devoid of any sexuality that has bite. A kind of neutered sexuality. So is this homophobia? Yes, because homophobia is fear of homosexuality, and here obviously someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings. What Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays. I don't think that Minkowitz is out of line, but she perhaps should've recognized that Joss's hands are tied. quote:IP: LoggedGudanovDoll's eye crystal
Posts: 94 Registered: Dec 2000 posted December 18, 2000 10:21 Speaking of Salon, it's interesting that in their message area called Table Talk the Buffy-related threads dominate in traffic over everything else in the TV section. A lot of Buffy watchers have been sucked in by Salon articles. Myself included.IP: Logged posted December 18, 2000 10:21 Speaking of Salon, it's interesting that in their message area called Table Talk the Buffy-related threads dominate in traffic over everything else in the TV section. A lot of Buffy watchers have been sucked in by Salon articles. Myself included.IP: LoggedHuginMs. Moderator Fantastico
Posts: 787 Registered: Sep 2000Ms. Moderator Fantastico posted December 18, 2000 11:16 quote: Originally posted by Spring: [BWhat Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays. [/B]
I have to disagree with you (nee Minkowitz) on this point Spring. Assuming that Joss would genuinely like to show more W/T affection and intimacy that he's being currently allowed, I think the "Highlighted Double Standard" approach is one of the few weapons available to him. Over and over I've seen folks, even folks who weren't particularly enamored of W/T, saying "Oh for crying out loud, that was just silly, let them kiss already." They may not like W/T per se, but within the context of the relationship and the show, even they can see, and be annoyed by, the double standard. And I've heard casual, non-fandom savvy viewers say the same thing. It would seem that some of the W/T scenes are shot in multiple versions, which indicates to me that we'd be seeing nicer stuff if not for active censorship on the WB's part. I suppose Joss could raise a bigger stink, push as hard as he possibly could, but I don't know that the results would actually be to our liking. There's been a pervasive sense throughout the run of the show that the WB didn't quite get it, I don't know how damaging a full on war would be. One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended. Or, one could argue that if the WB is uncomfortable with W/T, then to be equitable, all the intimacy on the show should be toned down, and in fact, why don't we take out all the possible objectionable content. Now, I'm being sort of a jerk on purpose here. But really, compared to no W/T at all (which you know was a possibility, Joss had to fight for the very idea), or compared to a defanged (har har) show overall, I'm willing to grit my teeth, as long as I have a sense that Joss continues to work behind the scenes to make things more fair, which I believe he is. I would have never ever ever guessed we'd see in-bed snuggles based on last season. No way. And I keep having to remind myself that even what we've had so far (aside from the kiss) is still incredibly rare, if not breakthrough, for network TV. Take away W/T. That leaves how many open, canonical, ongoing relationships on TV, involving (sorry Felicity, Friends, etc) a main character? I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond. As for The Kiss...it would seem to be the keystone of the WB's corporate cowardice. I suspect that some suit backed him or herself into a corner, and is hunkered down in The Kiss like a bunker. It reminds me (in a weird way, bear with me) of the censorship laws surrounding some "adult" anime. Under those tortured guidelines, a penis cannot be shown penetrating a vagina (actually, I don't think you can show a penis at all). So, one of the techniques the makers of these things use to get around this is to have...oh, a gross variety of other items, standing in for the penis in sex scenes. So, because of a small, dumb bit of censorship, you get a much more prurient result. Happily, Joss has better taste, there will be no naughty tentacles on Buffy. But I much prefer his approach to, say, oh, Willow switching bodies with Xander and kissing Tara in Xander's body *cough*. Do folks want much more "spells as sex"? Because I got the impression, much as folks liked the flaming O last year, that they were getting kind of tired of that. That's the other path. Dear god I talk to much. -len IP: Logged posted December 18, 2000 11:16 quote: Originally posted by Spring: [BWhat Minkowitz is saying that Joss's attempts at highlighting the hypocrisy of censorship is really counter productive as it is so subtextual as to be meaningless. A lot of people are missing the point and just seeing the surface of the situation - which is it's OK for straights to kiss on TV but not gays. [/B]
I have to disagree with you (nee Minkowitz) on this point Spring. Assuming that Joss would genuinely like to show more W/T affection and intimacy that he's being currently allowed, I think the "Highlighted Double Standard" approach is one of the few weapons available to him. Over and over I've seen folks, even folks who weren't particularly enamored of W/T, saying "Oh for crying out loud, that was just silly, let them kiss already." They may not like W/T per se, but within the context of the relationship and the show, even they can see, and be annoyed by, the double standard. And I've heard casual, non-fandom savvy viewers say the same thing. It would seem that some of the W/T scenes are shot in multiple versions, which indicates to me that we'd be seeing nicer stuff if not for active censorship on the WB's part. I suppose Joss could raise a bigger stink, push as hard as he possibly could, but I don't know that the results would actually be to our liking. There's been a pervasive sense throughout the run of the show that the WB didn't quite get it, I don't know how damaging a full on war would be. One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended. Or, one could argue that if the WB is uncomfortable with W/T, then to be equitable, all the intimacy on the show should be toned down, and in fact, why don't we take out all the possible objectionable content. Now, I'm being sort of a jerk on purpose here. But really, compared to no W/T at all (which you know was a possibility, Joss had to fight for the very idea), or compared to a defanged (har har) show overall, I'm willing to grit my teeth, as long as I have a sense that Joss continues to work behind the scenes to make things more fair, which I believe he is. I would have never ever ever guessed we'd see in-bed snuggles based on last season. No way. And I keep having to remind myself that even what we've had so far (aside from the kiss) is still incredibly rare, if not breakthrough, for network TV. Take away W/T. That leaves how many open, canonical, ongoing relationships on TV, involving (sorry Felicity, Friends, etc) a main character? I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond. As for The Kiss...it would seem to be the keystone of the WB's corporate cowardice. I suspect that some suit backed him or herself into a corner, and is hunkered down in The Kiss like a bunker. It reminds me (in a weird way, bear with me) of the censorship laws surrounding some "adult" anime. Under those tortured guidelines, a penis cannot be shown penetrating a vagina (actually, I don't think you can show a penis at all). So, one of the techniques the makers of these things use to get around this is to have...oh, a gross variety of other items, standing in for the penis in sex scenes. So, because of a small, dumb bit of censorship, you get a much more prurient result. Happily, Joss has better taste, there will be no naughty tentacles on Buffy. But I much prefer his approach to, say, oh, Willow switching bodies with Xander and kissing Tara in Xander's body *cough*. Do folks want much more "spells as sex"? Because I got the impression, much as folks liked the flaming O last year, that they were getting kind of tired of that. That's the other path. Dear god I talk to much. -len quote:IP: LoggedwolliwCool Monster Fighter
Posts: 286 Registered: Nov 2000 posted December 18, 2000 11:32 Hi spring,You (and others) have made the important point that casual viewers won't know that the inequality of rel'ship depiction is not due to the reluctance of the Buffy creators, but because of network restrictions. So from the viewer's perspective, I guess one might think that it *is* the show that is homophobic, or that the show is condoning the inequality. But all I'm saying is that observing that there is inequality or hypocrisy somewhere, like a tv show, does not automatically enable someone to correctly identify the source of the bigotry. To go back to my earlier example, would it be fair to call Idgie and Ruth's cafe in Fried Green Tomatoes "racist" because they didn't serve black patrons in the front of the store? I hardly think so; if they did, they'd have been shut down, or worse. Perhaps a casual visitor to the town might conclude that the owners of the establishment are racist, but I think that would be wrong. Yes, the inequality of treatment -- a *manifestation* of racism -- is there in their cafe; but the racist attitudes and ideology rest not with them, but with others (the Klan, the legal and political power structures etc.). Sure, as you say, "someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings", but personally I think it's unfair to lay that at the feet of the show. Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part. Anyway, as I said, I enjoyed the rest of Donna Minkowitz's article, and I appreciate the general spirit of it. But on the other side of the coin, there *have* been battles that Joss Whedon has fought for W/T, not to mention the public statements of AB and AH; I just think that it's hard to take a statement like "the show is cowardly, even homophobic" to exclude these three wonderful folks (but particularly JW) from its condemnation, even if that may not have necessarily been DM's intent. [This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).] IP: Logged posted December 18, 2000 11:32 Hi spring,You (and others) have made the important point that casual viewers won't know that the inequality of rel'ship depiction is not due to the reluctance of the Buffy creators, but because of network restrictions. So from the viewer's perspective, I guess one might think that it *is* the show that is homophobic, or that the show is condoning the inequality. But all I'm saying is that observing that there is inequality or hypocrisy somewhere, like a tv show, does not automatically enable someone to correctly identify the source of the bigotry. To go back to my earlier example, would it be fair to call Idgie and Ruth's cafe in Fried Green Tomatoes "racist" because they didn't serve black patrons in the front of the store? I hardly think so; if they did, they'd have been shut down, or worse. Perhaps a casual visitor to the town might conclude that the owners of the establishment are racist, but I think that would be wrong. Yes, the inequality of treatment -- a *manifestation* of racism -- is there in their cafe; but the racist attitudes and ideology rest not with them, but with others (the Klan, the legal and political power structures etc.). Sure, as you say, "someone is afraid of showing W/T honestly as sexual beings", but personally I think it's unfair to lay that at the feet of the show. Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part. Anyway, as I said, I enjoyed the rest of Donna Minkowitz's article, and I appreciate the general spirit of it. But on the other side of the coin, there *have* been battles that Joss Whedon has fought for W/T, not to mention the public statements of AB and AH; I just think that it's hard to take a statement like "the show is cowardly, even homophobic" to exclude these three wonderful folks (but particularly JW) from its condemnation, even if that may not have necessarily been DM's intent. [This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 18, 2000).] IP: LoggedSpringMs. Moderator Fantastico
Posts: 3271 Registered: Oct 2000Ms. Moderator Fantastico posted December 18, 2000 11:44 Len: "One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended."Yeah, I know how I can come across sounding like that, but of course I would prefer an asexual neutered relationship than to none at all. I still think that Minkowitz has a legitimate point, but in the grand scheme of things it is better to have what we have now than to not have anything at all. I have also found that Minkowitz makes incendiary statements that are very much based on a snapshot of the present situation, much like her famed 'Willow needs to be Gay' article, which was pushing for more at a time when we all thought W/T would remain subtextual forever. Minkowitz takes a snapshot and says 'Look what's wrong here!' and demands more...which is why I still think the 'homophobic' statement works. Well it works for me anyway, but I can see how it does not work for a lot of people. I'm not so much into having them kiss, which I think is a transitory thing, but have W/T look like they feel desire or passionate towards each other (like in the 'Willow hand' scene). I don't need to see them have sex, but maybe reference it once in a while shouldn't be such a burden. W/T is still breakthrough TV even if it's core message is being undermined by corporate censorship - though of course the benefits far, far, FAR outweigh the little itty, bitty, teeny, weeny, miniscule disadvantages. LEN: "I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond." Hee. Hee. Hee. (wiping tears from eyes) Oh Len, you are so freakin' funny! You. Post. More. Now. Editing to respond to wolliw: "Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part. " Again, it depends on what 'is' is. An argument can be made that 'Will & Grace' is a homophobic show in the unrealistic ways it portrays Will's life or Jack's life and how it plays into stereotypes for laughs, etc...Since homophobia is present in society, anything with that deals with 'homo-' touches base with that. Your FGT analogy is very good in regards to that. But I'm saying here is that the use of the word 'homophobic' is valid, though you disagree. The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent. Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm making sense here. Let's say we go back to the 50's (or 1800's, whatever time suits you in the context of pre-feminism). Let's say we have a TV show in which a woman is shown as a professional, accomplished, and independent. In trying to portray that woman as a feminist, the creators of the show will invariably depict this person in ways which are stereotypical and/or anti-feminist. Sure the intent is to portray a woman in a positive, feminist light, but due to the nature of society at the time (or what have you) that will not be the only message that is conveyed. The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic. Ugh. Too much coffee this morning, methinks. [This message has been edited by Spring (edited December 18, 2000).] IP: Logged posted December 18, 2000 11:44 Len: "One could argue that a principled hard line position is that a neutered portrayal that may send a message that homosexual relationships are only acceptable if neutered is more pernicious than not depicting one at all, therefore, in the abscence of equal treatment, the W/T plotline should be ended."Yeah, I know how I can come across sounding like that, but of course I would prefer an asexual neutered relationship than to none at all. I still think that Minkowitz has a legitimate point, but in the grand scheme of things it is better to have what we have now than to not have anything at all. I have also found that Minkowitz makes incendiary statements that are very much based on a snapshot of the present situation, much like her famed 'Willow needs to be Gay' article, which was pushing for more at a time when we all thought W/T would remain subtextual forever. Minkowitz takes a snapshot and says 'Look what's wrong here!' and demands more...which is why I still think the 'homophobic' statement works. Well it works for me anyway, but I can see how it does not work for a lot of people. I'm not so much into having them kiss, which I think is a transitory thing, but have W/T look like they feel desire or passionate towards each other (like in the 'Willow hand' scene). I don't need to see them have sex, but maybe reference it once in a while shouldn't be such a burden. W/T is still breakthrough TV even if it's core message is being undermined by corporate censorship - though of course the benefits far, far, FAR outweigh the little itty, bitty, teeny, weeny, miniscule disadvantages. LEN: "I'm keeping quite a hopeful eye on ER, but right now, all we've got is an unhappy lesbian woman and an unhappy straight woman and a chalupa being crushed down into a diamond." Hee. Hee. Hee. (wiping tears from eyes) Oh Len, you are so freakin' funny! You. Post. More. Now. Editing to respond to wolliw: "Because homophobia doesn't just mean inequality of depiction (which no one could dispute is true of W/T vs. the straight couples); homophobia requires the prejudiced thoughts or feelings on someone's part. " Again, it depends on what 'is' is. An argument can be made that 'Will & Grace' is a homophobic show in the unrealistic ways it portrays Will's life or Jack's life and how it plays into stereotypes for laughs, etc...Since homophobia is present in society, anything with that deals with 'homo-' touches base with that. Your FGT analogy is very good in regards to that. But I'm saying here is that the use of the word 'homophobic' is valid, though you disagree. The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent. Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm making sense here. Let's say we go back to the 50's (or 1800's, whatever time suits you in the context of pre-feminism). Let's say we have a TV show in which a woman is shown as a professional, accomplished, and independent. In trying to portray that woman as a feminist, the creators of the show will invariably depict this person in ways which are stereotypical and/or anti-feminist. Sure the intent is to portray a woman in a positive, feminist light, but due to the nature of society at the time (or what have you) that will not be the only message that is conveyed. The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic. Ugh. Too much coffee this morning, methinks. [This message has been edited by Spring (edited December 18, 2000).] IP: LoggedwolliwCool Monster Fighter
Posts: 286 Registered: Nov 2000 posted December 18, 2000 12:22 Hi Spring,What an invigorating discussion – who needs coffee ? OK, you say: “The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent.” and: “The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic.” I do agree that the postmodern perspective which downplays intent is valid to a degree for the reasons you mention; partly because everything is supposedly inextricably intertwined, a la the paradox of dualism which Derrida deconstructs (one part is never truly without the other and all that), so you can't ever really escape what you are trying to. My personal viewpoint, though, is that intent *does* matter, and as much as we can, we should take it into consideration (people get very upset, rightfully, if you mistake their intent, after all). However, if one's definitions of “homophobia”, “racism” and so on require only the presence of matter that could be *read* as homophobic, racist, etc., then I guess I can see where Donna Minkowitz's use of the label “homophobic” for the show is coming from. Still disagree on the usage though!
IP: Logged posted December 18, 2000 12:22 Hi Spring,What an invigorating discussion – who needs coffee ? OK, you say: “The problem is that there is still such a dearth of gay representation in mainstream media that any show portraying homosexuality will carry the baggage of homophobic subtext regardless of intent.” and: “The problem is then not with the producers of the show, but with society as whole (which is your argument). Still a feminist show can carry anti-feminist subtext (isn't this what post-modernism is about?) in the same way that a pro-gay show can be homophobic.” I do agree that the postmodern perspective which downplays intent is valid to a degree for the reasons you mention; partly because everything is supposedly inextricably intertwined, a la the paradox of dualism which Derrida deconstructs (one part is never truly without the other and all that), so you can't ever really escape what you are trying to. My personal viewpoint, though, is that intent *does* matter, and as much as we can, we should take it into consideration (people get very upset, rightfully, if you mistake their intent, after all). However, if one's definitions of “homophobia”, “racism” and so on require only the presence of matter that could be *read* as homophobic, racist, etc., then I guess I can see where Donna Minkowitz's use of the label “homophobic” for the show is coming from. Still disagree on the usage though!
IP: LoggedaprilGay Now!
Posts: 1748 Registered: Oct 2000 posted December 18, 2000 12:56 my god, we're getting into derrida, dualism and deconstruction now...i'm frightened. very frightened.i'm sure that all of us, including joss, aly and amber, are guilty of harboring some sort of homophobia of the subtle, unintentional, internalized kind. in a society where heterosexuality is highly priviliged and accepted as the norm, this is unavoidable. however, i think that the WB's ban of a w/t kiss qualifies as blatant, overt, homophobia. whatever their motivations for instituting this ban (fear of losing viewers/advertisers/money), it is basically a statement on the part of the WB that they feel there is something wrong with willow and tara kissing, wrong enough to not want to show it on television. it doesn't matter if the WB thinks it's wrong because it's immoral, or whether it simply thinks it's wrong because showing it might lead to a lack of viewership and subsequent loss of advertising dollars. the bottom line is, the WB has forcefully indicated that expressions of teenage homosexuality are something which they do not want their viewing public to see on BtVS, and they feel strongly enough about this to place restrictions on the show's writers and producers. when you add to this information the fact that the WB *has* allowed same-sex kisses on its other shows, i would call their ban of a w/t kiss a cowardly move indeed. it is a move motivated by the fear that showing a kiss between two characters in a loving same-sex relationship, rather than a one-sided, unreciprocated kiss, will send an undesired message to viewers: the message that it is possible for teens to be in caring, passionate, healthy gay relationships, and that such relationships are okay. considering that it is *this* message the WB is working so hard to repress, rather than the painful, tortured message of a "dawson's creek"-type kiss, i think that homophobia is a very apt term to use. i did not mean to rant so much about this; i'll shut up now. IP: Logged posted December 18, 2000 12:56 my god, we're getting into derrida, dualism and deconstruction now...i'm frightened. very frightened.i'm sure that all of us, including joss, aly and amber, are guilty of harboring some sort of homophobia of the subtle, unintentional, internalized kind. in a society where heterosexuality is highly priviliged and accepted as the norm, this is unavoidable. however, i think that the WB's ban of a w/t kiss qualifies as blatant, overt, homophobia. whatever their motivations for instituting this ban (fear of losing viewers/advertisers/money), it is basically a statement on the part of the WB that they feel there is something wrong with willow and tara kissing, wrong enough to not want to show it on television. it doesn't matter if the WB thinks it's wrong because it's immoral, or whether it simply thinks it's wrong because showing it might lead to a lack of viewership and subsequent loss of advertising dollars. the bottom line is, the WB has forcefully indicated that expressions of teenage homosexuality are something which they do not want their viewing public to see on BtVS, and they feel strongly enough about this to place restrictions on the show's writers and producers. when you add to this information the fact that the WB *has* allowed same-sex kisses on its other shows, i would call their ban of a w/t kiss a cowardly move indeed. it is a move motivated by the fear that showing a kiss between two characters in a loving same-sex relationship, rather than a one-sided, unreciprocated kiss, will send an undesired message to viewers: the message that it is possible for teens to be in caring, passionate, healthy gay relationships, and that such relationships are okay. considering that it is *this* message the WB is working so hard to repress, rather than the painful, tortured message of a "dawson's creek"-type kiss, i think that homophobia is a very apt term to use. i did not mean to rant so much about this; i'll shut up now.
|