How Fast Were Willow and Tara ?

[xita]

I agree Garner, I like those fics and enjoy them but I agree that it wouldn't have been Tara's style. Afterall, look at New Moon Rising, Tara was scared to even put herself as a contender for Willow's heart. I don't think it was in her nature then to push. I see her letting Willow decide just exactly when the time is right to move another step.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"The suspense is terrible. I hope it'll last."

-Willie Wonka

[Sheridan]

I think Tara would have found a reason to search out Willow even without the 'Gentlemen'. That Willow was so eager to build on the relationship, even if at first she didn't face upto the real nature of the relationship, meant Tara could just go with the flow.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

[DaddyCatALSO]

Garner; I also see it as Tara letting Willow set the pace in terms of "scheduling", but going so far as to imagine Wilow as the initiator-in-the-strictes-senseof-the-word when it came to sharing full intimacy is veyr interesting and I definitely hadn't considered that. (My feeling; Tara is alive in more dimensions than she isn't and there's room for a variety of backstories.)



xita- Not posted yet; I have very little time to word-process for more reasons than belong here but intend to put up this one, "The Making of a Bridesmaid" and "Cross-Country_Cousins" (a retelling of "Family" from the viewpoint of a less hate-filled relative) "eventually." I think I was reluctant to write W&T until I felt ready, since I adore them so much, which is one reason why they're fairly minor charcaters in the stuff I currently have on the Guild.

[Garner]

I find the variety of backstories available to be fairly cool and entertaining. One of the advantages of ME having left so much vague and off camera is that we CAN speculate on who initiated the first kiss (I still go with Willow) or when and where and all that. It would have been nice to see some of this on screen, but it certainly allows for fan writers to cover some important areas of the relationship without having any specific canon to step on. Or just going full AUey which can be fun too.



Garner

[xita]

Yeah Garner, I've thought that before. I would have loved to have seen some of those moments of course, but on the other hand I think that the ambiguity propelled a lot of my love for them and of course a lot of the great fic. I wouldn't change it. I think the growth in the graphic details of their relationship added romance.

- - - - - - - - - - -
"The suspense is terrible. I hope it'll last."

-Willie Wonka

[sapphocrazygirl]

I'm gonna have to admit, that I think the first time was in NMR. There is definitely an argument for TIIT, which is of course why this board has reached 5 pages...but, really, it just comes down to me being a hopeless romantic, and looking at the W/t relationship up to that point.



Up until NMR, there isn't much contact going on between our girls - out of magic spells contact anyway, and then you get all the ME b.s. about magic=lesbian sex, which is of course just a desperate attempt to please both the homophobic censors and the anxiously watching lesbians (who bets that after Hush, and definitely after WAY, that lesbian population in the audience went up?).



Lots of closed doors and hand holding, which is inconclusive no matter how you look at it. "I want my room to be Willow-friendly" could go a lot of ways. But, I subscribe to the On Second Thought school of mind (which is an excellent fic), that the two girls spent nights together, but didn't do anything because Willow was hesitant. Maybe she needed closure with Oz, or needed to deal with what her love for Tara meant about her own sexuality - or both.



But, then again there is the various stuff which you've all cited before, which is all valid. I'm just a hopeless romantic, and I'd want our girls to wait, until Tara had confidence and Willow was open about her relationship. I also believe in love first, passion later, which puts me in a teenage minority, but so be it.



Tara is such a fascinating character, that it really could go both ways - a very early sexual relationship, or very late. People with a history of abuse either crave physical touch and sacrifice their emotional needs to get it, or hold back until they're sure they won't get hurt. I think Tara was #2, but that's me.



Goddamn the censors...is there any question about when Buffy and Angel, Riley, or Spike first made love? Or, for that matter, Oz and Willow? For God's sake, just show W/t together in bed naked, a la the beginning of Seeing Red though I hope to God a lot sooner in the series, and we'll take it from there.



Bastards!!

---

"I got my axe, I got my honey...I'd say all I need is a quiet room and some body lotion and I've got me a party!"

- Faith, in Torturing Touch

[urnofosiris]

They could have easily shown WT like they were at the beginning of SR, at least earlier in s6 they could have. That way we would have been able to enjoy it untainted.

Anyway, at first I was convinced the end of NMR was their first all the way time so to speak. Then I gradually became convinced it was WAY. Now I am not sure anymore, hee, I will need to reread this whole thread. There have been some great arguments either way.

-------------------------


Coffee, Food, Kisses and Gay Love........Get it while you are hot

[xita]

You know I can buy almost anything except NMR I just think they had by then that's all.



Oh, once I read a fic, where they had waited till family

- - - - - - - - - - -
"The suspense is terrible. I hope it'll last."

-Willie Wonka

[the vamp nurd]

Quote:

---

Oh, once I read a fic, where they had waited till family

---

Whoa!



that's a long time.



I'm throwing my bright blue sunhat into the ring please don't beat me to death with shovels but first either WAY or TIIT



first time NMR.

Sorry I missed church, I was busy becoming a lesbian and worshiping Satan



Open up Pandora's kiss.



Bardlet no #27

[Warduke]

Amber's doing a signing at the InfinitelyBetter store (in the UK) and they had this to say about Tara...

Quote:

---

It is with great pleasure that InfinitelyBetter can announce a very special and rare in-store signing with Amber Benson (Tara; Buffy The Vampire Slayer)



Tara first appeared in Buffy The Vampire Slayer in the fourth season's landmark "silent" episode, "Hush", as a painfully shy member of Willows Wicca group.



Tara and Willow formed a friendship and practised magic together finding that combined their magic was more powerful than either of them were capable of on their own.



They practiced spellcasting together in "A New Man", two episodes later. It was in season fours "The I In The Team" that the pair developed a sexual and loving relationship.



Throughout season four Tara became more significant and a part of the Scooby Gang's life, confirming herself as a main cast member by the close of the season.

---

Very interesting indeed

---

Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[urnofosiris]

That really is an interesting thing to say. It must have been written by someone who actually watched that show with a good eye for WT. What I like best is that they don't mention season shit. I think I like this infinitelybetterstore.

The last mosquito that bit me had to check into the Betty Ford Clinic.

--Patsy Stone

[Garner]

Very interesting. Since I am currently doing a season 4 sort of thing from Tara's perspective I find that timing issues are harder than I thought. I still say that stuff of a sexual nature had to happen prior to NMR. But, I am starting to recant a bit and think that they never went "all the way fully" before NMR. To me it now seems like TIIT is when both realized that something more was going on. But there are so many unanswered firsts and questions: When did Tara find out about Oz, when did she learn about Buffy as the Slayer, when was the first kiss, why did they wait to NMR for Tara to go to a Scooby meeting? That sort of thing. I am starting to think that overall, Willow and Tara went slower than I first initially thought.



And yeah, it is nice to see someone who paid attention to W/T making comments. That's almost a first!



Garner

[The Rose24]

Tara goes to a mini Scooby Meeting in WTWTA.



I still don't think they went all the way until NMR.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

[Garner]

The meeting in WTWTA seemed more like a scooby get together than an official scooby meeting. Especially with Giles lacking. I believe, though I need to rewatch just to make sure, that Willow referred to the one in NMR as the first official meeting that Tara was attending. Figures that's when Oz would come back.



Garner

[TKOLove]

Quote:

---

Willow referred to the one in NMR as the first official meeting that Tara was attending. Figures that's when Oz would come back.

---

Bad, bad Oz!!!



I'm jumping on the "they didn't 'go all the way' until NMR" bandwagon. Incidentally, is there an actual wagon? 'Cause that might be kinda fun.

...when we find That Kind of Love...

[Scout]

It's funny how this topic never dies. Sex talk doesn't seem to get old. heehee!



Well, since I'm here, I'll offer my opinion. The Flaming O was sex - no question - so their sex life had to have started in WAY or sooner.



I always find it interesting that in WAY the girls did that very sensual spell at night, yet they didn't take the Katra to Giles until the next day - and it was supposedly an emergency. What do you think they were doing all night that resulted in them not arriving at Giles' until the next morning and out of breath? That's a hell of a time gap!

[TKOLove]

Ok, Scout. Stop confusing me with logic.

I suppose my theory is moot because if I recall, it's been said by the actresses themselves that "they were so totally f****ing" in WAY. LOL



Still, the Nether Realm spell was certainly -worthily erotic, but I always thought it was tied to the spell itself, and had less to do with physical sexual contact between W/T. I just assumed (innocent that I am ) that it took a long while for Willow to find Buffy in the Nether Realm, and that the spell left Willow and Tara exhausted. So I figured they cuddled up and slept for a few hours and then rushed to Giles' in the morning.



But I'm nothing if not flexible, so if someone tells me she believes W/T spent the night making love in new and exciting ways, I'm more than willing to give it some consideration. In fact, I'll get started on that right now. -- --

...when we find That Kind of Love...

[Scout]

Thank you, TKO. And I'm sorry about any logic that accidentally slipped into my post - as you can see I've thought about this way too much! hehe



But I have to say, I like your cuddling theory - it's very sweet. And the girls are nothing if not sweet, which is one of the reasons I love them so.

[TKOLove]

LOL, Scout. No apology necessary. But ya know, you really have to watch out for that insidious logic -- it sneaks in there when you least expect it.



Thank you for the compliment regarding my cuddle theory. And you're right; the girls are sweet. As sweet as the syrup that lovingly dribbles over their funny-shaped pancakes.



Thankfully, we also know that & can be incredibly naughty, too. (Especially on the Kitten board!)

...when we find That Kind of Love...

[Garner]

It is amazing how enduring this debate can be, and in a good way not a nasty flamey one. My problem is that I can see it going either way in WAY. There is a time gap without doubt, even giving the amount needed to find Buffy and then conjure the katra. They could have made love, they could have been exhausted and cuddled, either is likely. It is also possible that they started something after the spells, sort of buzzed from the energy and all, but stopped either due to total exhaustion, or possibly Willow not being quite ready with issues of Oz still left unfinished. Without having seen anything on the show or had it mentioned, any reasonable explanation is possible. One of the downsides to W/T having been in the background relationship wise.



Garner

[sam7777]

I think the Flaming O spell was their first going all the way but their first kiss was in TIIT. I used to think it was a bad thing that ME never showed us their first kiss and other firsts but given the dreck they have shown us the last 2 seasons, I think what we imagine and what is in fanfic is much better anyway.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 11/10/03 4:33 pm

[The Rose24]

The reason I say NMR is their first time is because Willow still hasn't resolved her issues with Oz. I really don't think the way Willow is written in seasons 1-5 that she would go all the way with Tara until these issues with Oz are no longer holding her back, and I really don't think Tara would go all the way with Willow until she has Willow's total commitment. Tara doesnt want to be hurt either. When Willow chooses Tara at the end of NMR, Tara has all the answers she needs.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

[Warduke]

Willow wasn't expecting Oz to show up in NMR. If she was waiting to resolve the Oz issue, then what would have happened if he had never come back? Would Willow have stayed single for the rest of her life? I don't think so.



Oz is the one who left, he dumped her. She didn't owe him a thing and she didn't have to wait for him to come back so she could finally move on with her life.



When she met Tara (her soulmate no less) that shook Willow's entire world and there's no way she would have waited for Oz to show up "sometime in the future" to settle some issues before moving on with her life.

---

Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[The Rose24]

Judging by Willow's confusion in the ep, she still wasn't completely over him.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

[Warduke]

True, but that doesn't mean she would have put her life on hold until he possibly comes back some day. For all she knew, he was gone for good and never coming back.



And she did what anyone would do, she lived her life.

---

Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[Moon to the Tide]

Wow. I just sat and read this whole thread, start to finish, and there are some wonderful interpretations here!

As for mine? I believe I need to spend all night watching s4 to decide...

[urnofosiris]

Of course Willow was confused when he came back, she said so herself. The thing she wanted most of all (before Tara came into the picture) happened, but...

For a while after Oz left (of his own accord after cheating on her, no one chopped his head off) Willow was clearly very down, hurt, he left when she still had a lot to say, so of course she had not resolved everything.



Then she met Tara, and she was not expecting it, she did not go looking for it, but it happened. Tara was not just the next boy in the band that came skipping along, she is her soulmate. During WAY it is so obvious Willow loves her. The way she says "I trust you", the look she gives Tara leaves no doubt in my mind she knows her own feelings by then and after the Flaming O Spell, eh, I just don't see how she would wait till NMR. What would she be waiting for? For Oz to gallantly set her free? Like Brian said, what if he had never come back?



Maybe NMR was the first time both could really go for it without the looming "threat" of Oz in the background. When Oz appeared, Tara spoke is name and her shoulders sagged in a way that so very clearly showed she had been dreading and expecting that moment. Willow was shocked and surprised, but Tara wasn't. I think she was expecting to lose Willow to Oz, for her it was all too good to be true. As it turned out, it was very good and very true, and whatever issues both of them had with Oz were resolved by the end of NMR.

The last mosquito that bit me had to check into the Betty Ford Clinic.

--Patsy Stone

[umgaynow]

OK...don't know if anyone else has made this distinction yet cuz I haven't read all the posts...just too hot in this little office o' mine...



Anyway, yes I think there was some intimacy between W&T in TIIT...Willow may have spent the night in Tara's room and obviously something did happen between them to make Willow ready to accept the crystal...but I think it was probably more in the heavy making out etc vein.



I think the first actual sex was the flaming O spell...there is no doubt that this is supposed to be sex...note the heavy breathing, sweating, Willow falling back, arching and moaning...and I also agree that her profession of trust to Tara means she is ready to take their relationship to the next step...



The way it seems to me...what was happening in NMR clearly illustrates that they had indeed made love at that point...I don't think Oz would be able to smell Willow on Tara to the exclusion of it being muddied by Tara's scent from down the hall unless there had been bodily fluids involved (I'm sure there's a less crass way to phrase that but can't think of one right now)



But there is clearly so much insecurity for Tara in NMR...saying she always knew that if Oz came back Willow would leave her etc...there has to be something that Tara is wanting/needing that Willow has not yet been ready to give her...if they had been fully intimate since TIIT I am sure Tara would have enough love inspired confidence, at this point, to believe she was an equal rival for Willow's heart...



I think that what was going on is that W/T had indeed done the grownup...but I think it was probably Tara (who had no doubt had previous experience, cuz she was obviously not freaked out about the two of them as a couple) doing Willow without reciprocation cuz Willow wasn't comfortable with that as of yet...it's Willow who falls back in WAY after all...not both of them...which would also make Tara doubt Willow's committment to her (if she couldn't trust Tara enough to put herself on the line that much emotionally or whatever) and give her that feeling of being Willow's dirty little secret...at any rate, at the end of NMR it is clear that when Willow says she is going to make it up to her right now and Tara gets that "on the inside I'm jumping up and down and cheering" look on her face, that something new and significant is about to happen...and I think that "first" is Willow reciprocating sexually for the first time...finally being ready to fully make love with Tara not just be made love to by her...makes the most sense to me...given the female emotional base paired with the lesbian experience being new to Willow I very much doubt they actually had sex the night of the doll's eye crystal...too fast...and yes, WAY makes sense, but there was clearly something left that hadn't occurred between them yet until the end of NMR...seems logical to me (and really isn't that all that matters? hehehe)





To those who say we don't know whether Tara had any experience before she and Willow got together...something just occurred to me...we do know...in the hideous fight right before Tara gets her brain sucked...Willow talks about feeling like the junior partner in the relationship and one of the reasons she gives is that Tara has been out longer (or is fanfic blending with reality in my head?)



*instead of double posting, edit your first post and add anything new to that one.

Edited by: Warduke at: 11/11/03 9:57 pm

[The Rose24]

I took "out longer" to mean that Tara knew she was gay before Willow, but I really don't think she has had any other sexual partners. Remember her brother saying in "Family" that The Scoobies were "more people than she met in high school." Also, Tara was way too shy, and I am sure her family kept her under close supervision.



I just don't buy that their first time was in "TIIT." This is way too soon. Something significant happens, that's for sure(I vote for heavy making out). As far as we know, they only see each other once between "Hush" and "TIIT"(Re: The floating rose spell).



NMR is perfect because all issues are resolved. Anything before this is way too unfair to Tara(IMO). I am sure Willow knows it too. Tara finally has Willow's full commitment at the end of NMR.



Re: Oz smelling Willow's scent on Tara

1) Tara is wearing Willow's sweater

2) Willow's tears(from crying on Tara)

3) They hug and hold each other

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Edited by: The Rose24  at: 11/11/03 7:21 pm

[Garner]

Well I will say that Umgaynow is probably on the mark. I think that TIIT is too early and also vote for the first kiss then. I also see something happening in WAY, and it involving a loss of clothing and nakedness, but there being something left over or not resolved yet. Yeah, Willow trusts Tara by the netherrealm spell, but does she truly love her and want her that much? Is she entirely certain at that point? I think there is still a little way to go before Willow thinks of herself as fully gay. In NMR in the coming out scene she never comes out and says to Buffy, "I'm in love with Tara." Buffy is the one who says crush, and Willow doesn't correct that. She also just says there is something powerful and unlooked for between them. It isn't till the end of NMR that she is ready to admit to everyone that she loves Tara and I think that's an important distinction. Willow strikes me as someone who doesn't have sex for its own sake, but sees that as part of love.



Now was she waiting for Oz to come back? Obviously not. I think she would have reached the same conclusions and the same place without oz coming back, but it might have taken a tad bit longer. Oz just accelerated things. Willow's unsureness and confusion need to be taken into account. At least that's my read on things now.



Garner