How Fast Were Willow and Tara ?

[FineyMcFine]

This is an interesting thread. I went and read some of the earlier posts up to screen 3 and it seems like a lot of folks agree that it was during The I In Team, and then one person in particular brought up some literary stuff that the texts can support different interpretations, etc. All interesting stuff.

In the show, I don't choose to believe that Tara was doing Willow but Willow didn't do Tara, as it were. Given Willow's personality, I don't see her being tentative or scared for long, and I think she'd want to jump right in. (So to speak.)

But in fan fiction, that's the fun of it - saying What If? and then figuring out what would have happened if...

[dorksrcool]

I definetly think something went on between them in "The I in Team." Willow stayed the night and when she came back to her room she had the Doll's Eye Crytal, which she hadn't accepted earlier. Honestly, the only reason I think the sex happened in WAY is because of the JW commentary on "Hush." It's pretty clear that the Flaming O spell was meant to be a metaphor for sex. That's why I don't view NMR as their "first time." Also, in the above mentioned commentary JW says something about how their relationship was always "physical." That's why I think NMR is way too late for them to be gettin' it on. Willow was spending late nights with Tara way before NMR. I don't think they were just talking during all of those late-night spell sessions.

The whole Tara=virgin thing doesn't really sit well with me because of the fight in "Tough Love" when Willow says that Tara has been "out longer." For some reason, that says to me that Tara talked to Willow about past relationships, which I have to believe were sexual. But I guess it's plausible because it was never overtly mentioned in the show.

That's the problem I guess with this whole debate. So much of it is up to interpretation because the damn show didn't actually give us very much. For instance, would Willow have struggled with her sexuality? It seems like she was concerned at first, but as soon as she chose Tara it was like, "Okay, I'm gay now!" I didn't really watch the first three seasons of the show, so I don't know if this makes sense for Willow's character. So many unanswered questions....that's why fan fiction is so fantastic!

Thanks for the replies!

[Hemiola]

dorksrcool brings up an interesting point.

Can someone please direct me to a PENS fic (title+author+location) which deals with either:

a) Willow struggling with her sexuality when she realizes the nature of her feelings for Tara or

b) the First Meeting of Tara with Willow's parents.

'preciate it.

[DaddyCatALSO]

Hemiola;those are two interesting themes, and definitely not gaps I'd even think of trying to fill, for about 5 reasons. Same with the tentative earlier steps of the 'ship.
That's one purpose of fanfic;to try to get a handle on things that weren't really addressed. And each writer's take on Situation A or Incident B tells us soemthing about what that p[erson brought to the show as a viewer.

As I seem to remmeber I said towards the beginning, I regard the Flaming "O" spell as exactly what it's been called, a metaphor, and the first actual orals ex occurred after that. After meaninag essentially any measurable amount oft ime, but definitely before "superstar." the reason my own fic about their first time was written as being something they'd decided on ahead of time, at elast long enough ahead of time to set up a date for it and take showers first, was more driven by my own attitudes towards sex than on any specific take on the characters.

[billy]

Honestly, the only reason I think the sex happened in WAY is because of the JW commentary on "Hush." It's pretty clear that the Flaming O spell was meant to be a metaphor for sex. That's why I don't view NMR as their "first time."

Dorksrcool, I don't tend to let anything a writer would say about their work influence me, it's what appeared in the show and our interpretation of it that matters (or anything we choose to ignore or change), and I'm talking generally since I do it with everything I watch or read, not criticising the usual suspects here. But having said that I would agree about the Flaming O Spell, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a metaphor, y'know. Witches. Magic. No need for them to be physically touching.

[Willow Watcher]

Willow and Tara had to have sex before NMR! I think that whole thing right there was just the committment part. Yeah, you all know that and sitting there saying DUH! but in the ep. 'I in Team' (someone else pointed this out) little Willow was out all night and did anyone notice that her sweater was more torn up that morning than it was at the Bronze or is it just me? Hey just because Tara's shy doesn't mean that she can't be a wild cat behind closed doors.

[the hero factor]

I don't tend to let anything a writer would say about their work influence me, it's what appeared in the show and our interpretation of it that matters

First, I just wanna say word to this. I don't care what the writers or actors or actresses or anyone have to say in interviews or on commentaries outside the story. I go by what I see onscreen, and how I interpret that.

That said, I see Willow and Tara's first time being at the end of NMR.

TIIT is just too early for me. I see Willow's refusal of the crystal as Willow not yet admitting, not yet wanting to admit, that she's interested in Tara. She knows Tara's gay. Knows that she's developing feelings for Tara, and she's not ready to go there. So accepting such a personal gift as the crystal is outside her comfort zone at that point.

Obviously, she had a change of heart during the night, but I can't see it going as far as sex. Not when just earlier that day, Willow couldn't even accept a gift from Tara. I think their first kiss probably happened that night.

Then there's WAY, which I missed the first time through s4. I moved to a new town and didn't get my cable hooked up right away, and ended up missing This Year's Girl, WAY, and Superstar. Maybe if I had seen it before NMR, I would have a different view of the W/T lovin' timeline. But as is, when I did see it during summer reruns, I already had my first time opinion, and the flaming 'O', though awesome, wasn't enough to change it.

WTWTA. I love the scene with Willow and Tara on the steps, and Willow's trying to be all smooth and nonchalant about putting her hand on Tara's knee. So cute! But she also seems kinda hesitant. I'd consider that she was worried someone would see them being couple-y, but she doesn't really look around; she only has eyes for Tara. I think the hesitancy comes from the fact that they haven't got to far on the physical side of things.

Then comes NMR. I should probably admit right now that part of the reason I like to think that Willow and Tara didn't have their first time until after this ep is because I like to think that W and T were in the same place, emotionally, the first time they have sex. Willow's uncertainty at Oz's return says to me that she wasn't. I realize this is a very shmoopily romanitc POV, but there it is.

(On of my favorite fics dealing with this time in W/T's relationship is On Second Thought by AntigoneUnbound, in which our girls haven't even kissed 'til after NMR. Talk about shmoopily romantic! *sigh*)

And the deal-breaker for me : "A-and I'm gonna make it up to you. Starting right now."

The way Willow says "starting right now," gave me the impression the first time I saw it that this was the start, the beginning, of something.

Anyway, that's the way I see the whole thing. Your mileage may vary.

[FineyMcFine]

the hero facter, I agree with you and say word to you. I'm a post I in Team gal myself, NMR for sure being my belief of what was their first.

(On of my favorite fics dealing with this time in W/T's relationship is On Second Thought by AntigoneUnbound, in which our girls haven't even kissed 'til after NMR. Talk about shmoopily romantic! *sigh*)

Of course, do take into account that in On Second Thought after they DO kiss and get back together they jump right into the ole sack, rounding first, second, and third base and then sliding slicky into (a VERY moist) home.

[watty]

in On Second Thought after they DO kiss and get back together they jump right into the ole sack, rounding first, second, and third base and then sliding slicky into (a VERY moist) home.

Heh, I'll take a HoMary-created verse over one that ME created any day, no hesitation, tyvm.

That's the beauty of fanfic, that the writers can interpret and put their own spin to events. And of course to fit into the purpose of the story. I can see myself writing / enjoying stories where their first time was TIIT, and then another story where they waited till NMR. Both scenarios are feasible, even using the material we were given in canon.

Before I started writing, I believed that their first time was TIIT. But my view has shifted somewhat. I agree with the hero factor said, it's more likely that

[Willow] had a change of heart during the night, but I can't see it going as far as sex. Not when just earlier that day, Willow couldn't even accept a gift from Tara. I think their first kiss probably happened that night.

Taking it further, I think they went beyond kissing into some tentative touching, but certainly not the big deed.

The Flaming O spell? With its intensity and intimacy of Tara anchoring Willow through the nether realms, and Willow's orgasmic reaction, I find it hard to believe that some form of physical / sexual activity didn't take place afterwards. Whether it was full blown sex, I'm not sure.

Now comes the TMI and personal relating section of this article. While in the majority of fics they have fantastic sex and are so connected they almost blend into each other from day one, in RL it is too perfect and incredible (though oh so very nice). It took me and my gf weeks (or was it months?) to become sexually compatible, so I'm going to suggest that it may have taken them from WAY, Superstar and WTWTA through to NMR to totally feel comfortable physically. There would also have been niggly doubts in their minds (no closure with Oz, haven't told Scoobies, haven't made mutual commitments) that may have played a part.

By the end of NMR there was no question, they were fully together, and each know it. There are many forms of intimacy, sex. I'd like to think that it was a progressive process from TIIT to NMR that got them to full intimacy. So the concept of "first time" isn't absolute, it's more of many smaller "first times."

And this is a discussion where mileages do and will vary, and IMHO all the better for it since it brings healthy discussion.
[br]

[Hemiola]

So, re my post above, nobody ever wrote a PENS story on subject (a) or subject (b)????????

[Garner]

Dorksrcool asked whether we thought Tara was a virgin or not and I find this to be a very obvious answer: Yes, no doubt about it. Her character seems way too shy and awkward to not be. Given her background of abuse and the slowness with which she and Willow got together, her insecurities that last well beyond Season 4 into Season 5, her slow self esteem and her seemingly coming from a small town background, I don't think there is any other answer. I have not read any convincing fanfic that would make me think otherwise.

I've posted quite a bit about this question a year or two ago when I was heavily writing my Journal story as the timeline was important to me and I was trying to decide how things did progress and at what speed. The bottom line is that we just don't know. They could have had sex very early and then backed off and not know how to react, what it meant or where to take their relationship. I have seen that happen to friends. They could have waited till NMR, dramatically, that seems to be a better time. It could have been in WAY, though I tend to think of that as a near miss now, what we saw was definitely suggestive of sex. This question I have seen written about in several different ways and many seemed pretty reasonable. As I said, we just didn't see enough of their budding relationship to know for sure when the first kiss was, who made that first move, what happened to allow Willow to accept the Doll's Eye Crystal, when did they go beyond making out and when did they go all the way. It gives lie to the idea they were treated like any other couple on the show. I have my own answers for all of these questions, but there really can't be any difinitive interpretation. But its fun to think about and discuss.

Garner

[dorksrcool]

There are many forms of intimacy, sex. I'd like to think that it was a progressive process from TIIT to NMR that got them to full intimacy. So the concept of "first time" isn't absolute, it's more of many smaller "first times."

Yes! This is such a good point, and it's one I wasn't really thinking about before. What does "first time" even mean? What particular activity is considered "sex?" It's pretty hard to answer these questions definitively because it's different for everyone. So while we may never know when exactly everything happened between W/T, we can safely say that something was going on from Hush to NMR. I like this idea watson, thanks for giving me a new perspective.

[Dana5140]

Hi, Garner. Your post was very timely. Over on another board we were discussing much the same issue and I had to make the following comment, whcih I quote directly here:

[In passing, a fellow named Garner posted a set of stories on the kittenboard which showed what was happening to Tara, what she was thinking and feeling, when she was off screen during the arc from Hush to NMR, and I have to say it is really really well written. I get the sense that Garner is a professional writer. And it gives a lot of insight into Tara's character, doing things like showing what she was thinking after Willow initially blew her off in The I in Team, only to show up later when Buffy stiffed her (Willow) to be with the Initiative. So though I agree with Kyrax that we were forever kept from knowing what really happened and how their relationship bloomed, this fic does a good job of filling in those blanks. I just cannot remember the fic name, though I suppose we could find it easily enough.]

I apologize if I have your sex wrong, btw. :-) And of course, the story was "From the Journals of Tara Maclay."

Now, I can argue a few interpretations. We do know that Willow stayed out all night with Tara at least twice before NMR. We know that Tara offered Willow the doll's eye crystal, which Willow initially turned down- perhaps for the exact reason given, but perhaps because Willow did not wish (yet) to lead Tara on if she was feeling that Tara was attracted to her in more than a "let's be friends" way. I think someone as peceptive as Willow would have recognized Tara's interest, might have found herself interested back but unsure what that actually meant, and therefore needed to stop the forward motion long enough to consider her own feelings. I think Willow was interested- so, when Buffy let her down and she ended up heading back to Tara (and she only blew Tara off because she really did want alone time with Buffy), she ended up staying the night- and taking the gift she was originally hesitant to accept. I can see this as their first steps toward sex (which we have left undefined in this debate- does it mean kissing, fondling breats, manually visiting the nether realms or oral sex?), but I am not sure that they really "consummated" their attraction until NMR, when Willow had to face her feelings for Tara for real.

As for Tara, I believe she was a virgin until she met Willow. I think she may have had some attractions to women in high school, but her shyness and her past abuse and the fact that (I believe) that she came from a small town where there were likely few out gay teens, meant that her experience was at best limited. If there was any at all.

Good discussion.

[DaddyCatALSO]

Which accounts for why I kept the chronology vague in my 2 Season-4 fics :-).
I've always had the idea there had been "something" in Tara's past experince; a great variety of things tend to "happen" wiht teenagers, and she did have her self-described "crazy period" and had been at uni a full semester before meeting Willow but again, how much or how little is up to individual calls.

[FineyMcFine]

Self-described crazy period? In canon, you mean? I must have missed that ep, what was the context and content?

[Dana5140]

I think DCA is referring to the comments Tara made to Buffy in The Body, about how she reacted to what had happened when she lost her mom.

[FineyMcFine]

Ah, I gotcha. I guess I always imagined that she meant grief and depression, that kind of craziness, not a sexual spree. But I suppose I could also go re-watch The Body (but it's too painful, so I probably won't).

[Dana5140]

It is never clear from her comments what she went through. I, too, also thought it meant she went through grief and depression, more so than acting out in either an angry, self-abusive or a sexual way- but we never know.

But The Body is so great and it is one of the great Tara episodes. I always thought that Tara, more than anyone, holds the group together: Xander ("It hurts."), Buffy ("I have."), and Willow ("We can do this.").

[Hemiola]

You don't have to re-watch "The Body"--it's in "Intervention" that Tara tells Xander, Anya, and Willow about her "crazy" period in the wake of her mother's death.

[Candleshoe]

Good point, Hemiola, her words in Intervention are "I did some pretty dumb stuff, like lying to my family and staying out all night".

The bit in The Body goes:" No, no, I didn’t mean to . . . I’m only telling you this because . . . I know it’s not m-my place, but . . . There’s things . . . thoughts and reactions I had that . . . I couldn’t . . . understand . . . or even try to explain to anyone else. Thoughts that . . . made me feel like I was losing it . . . or, like I was some kind of ho-horrible person. I know it’s different for you . . . because it’s always different, but . . . if you ever need. . ."

Can we infer anything from these?

[Garner]

I took the lying and staying out all night to be the acting out. For someone who was probably raised to be truthful and had a strict father, that would be definitely acting out. A sex spree seems really out of character to me. I do agree that teens do strange things, but Tara seems so introverted that anything beyond having a crush on someone she coudln't talk about seems out of character for me. And she'd have to be terrified that her father would find out. Living in a small town any laison would probably be noticed, I don't see her risking it. Now I could see a fling of some sort while at college right away. I don't find it likely, but I could see that, maybe.

I think someone as peceptive as Willow would have recognized Tara's interest, might have found herself interested back but unsure what that actually meant, and therefore needed to stop the forward motion long enough to consider her own feelings.

Actually, I kind of think of Willow as being in the oblivious to what others are feeling along those lines kind of person. I think the idea that someone, especially another girl, would be interested in her would be very foriegn and a shock to her. I have found a lot of smart girls to really not be aware of sexual context around them. It would be like a blind spot to Willow. She also might be just thankful for someone to hang with outside of the Scoobies who were sort of ignoring her. Though you are right that she is very smart so you never know. Anyway, thanks Dana5140 for the very complimentary words, I am sure I don't deserve them. And yeah, you got the gender right, I am male.

Garner

[Dana5140]

You're quite welcome, Garner; you write quite well.

I see your point, but do wonder: at what point did Willow know she was attracted to Tara? I keep mindful of the timeframe from Hush to NMR; it is not a horribly long period, and in the past I think I fiugred it out at around maybe 4 months tops. Now, the doll's eye scene does come early in the relation, and at that point, as you say, Willow was certainly glad to have someone to study Wicca with, and that was in and of itself enough reason to seek out her company. But Tara signalled her interest about Willow really from the get go; I keep thinking of the scene in Hush where after Willow speaks and Tara tries to speak, Tara gives what can only be called a sultry look toward Willow. And her overture with the doll's eye crystal was obviously a way of again signalling interest- but one that could easily be deflected into something else if it were rejected. Which it was, initially. And then it was not, later that day. You may be correct in thinking that Willow might not yet have recognized Tara's interest, though certainly there was a gay presence at U Sunnydale- given Riley's help to the lesbina group in hanging the banner. So now I would need to consider when Willow herself realized her real attraction- before Who are You, of course, but when? Floating the rose? That's is pretty metaphoric, for sure, as are the code words they use- two minds in perfect synchronicity, etc. Hmm, now I have to reconsider.

[dorksrcool]

I think Willow knew she was attracted to Tara after the "float the rose" spell in A New Man. I think the spell itself was pretty flirty. After Willow says "I'm glad you wanted to get together, I know it's late," and Tara says, "Thanks." The way they look at each other is prolonged and flirty. There's just something more than friendly going on. I don't think Willow would have been so shy around someone she was just getting friend vibes from.

Then, the next day when Buffy and Willow are eating breakfast Buffy asks Willow where she was the night before because she didn't hear her come home. Willow says, "(quickly) The chem lab, by myself. (a beat) I-I was trying this new spell; floating a rose, when all of a sudden (motions with fork) zing, zing, zing! Like all over the room. It was like a rose-based missile." Why did Willow lie to Buffy? If all that was going on was a little friendly spell-casting then wouldn't Willow have just told Buffy about her new friend? It would seem Willow would be super-excited to tell Buffy about a new witch friend because she was complaining to her in Hush about the Wicca group. But Willow purposefully lies to Buffy about doing the spell with Tara. It's not because Buffy would suspect something just because they were hanging out late. It's not because Buffy would suspect Tara was gay because I don't think Buffy even knew Tara. I think it's because Willow knows there's something more than friendly going on between she and Tara. She's over compensating like many people (myself included) do when they're over-thinking something. It wouldn't be unlike Willow to over analyze her feelings.

So that's my take.

[Dana5140]

That's a pretty good take! I have to admit that your argument just makes a whole lotta sense. Heck, now what do we have to talk about?

(Just kidding. There's always lots to talk about with W/T!)

[Garner]

Darksrcool has a very good point there. Willow does lie and conceal her relationship with Tara from a pretty early point. One could say that Willow wanted to keep Tara separate just to have something that was hers, to see where the friendship went, and sort of as a little revenge for Buffy not supporting her enough after Oz left and being so distracted by Riley. But, I tend to agree at this point Willow is starting to realize something is up. My guess is that she feels some attachment or unconscious attraction to Tara, is very flattered by the attention period, and doesn't really know in an analysed and intellectual sense what she's feeling or where she is willing to go with this. I put the first real encounter at the Doll's Eye Crystal incident and I think I still stand by that. Even then, I wouldn't be surprised if Willow's thoughts went something like: well, Tara is really pretty and nice and I like her a lot and she's so cool and she's a girl but it's just her and that doesn't mean anything. Sort of transitioning from I am attracted to Tara to I am gay. An important step that I think might have come a bit later on, though not much, maybe around WAY.

Dana is right that the full time Hush to NMR is like 4 months max, which makes things progress pretty quickly, but not too quickly, that is still some time.

Garner

[FineyMcFine]

All things considered, while four months sounds like a short period of time, it's a pretty long period of time if you're spending a LOT of time with someone focusing on getting to know them and stuff.

[Dana5140]

Hm. I am reconsidering. Here is my thinking. Hush was the very first Willow meets Tara. The next ep was Doomed, wherein there is no Tara at all and only a comment from Willow about dating a guitar player, or dated (in response to Spike needling her). And just after that is A New Man, with Float the Rose- and that would be actually the first time that Willow and Tara spend any time together after the events of Hush. And that just seems now to me to be too soon for them to be doing anything of a sexual nature. Willow did stay out all night- but she is intellectually inquisitive, and finally found someone who knew Wicca and witchery, and I could see her eagerness allowing her to forget how much time went by. So, changing my mind, again, I am leaning toward Garner's analysis.

(PS. I became a grandparent today; my step daughter gave birth to a bouncing nearly 10 pound girl- I am way too young for this! (cough52cough)).

[The person she loves]

I think Willow and Tara first had sexual relations in Who Are You after that Flaming O spell. i think The 1 in team is to early in that episode i think the just kissed and snuggled. but NMR i to late it seems to me they had a sexual relationship befor that but thats just my opinion.

[Garner]

Who Are You used to be in my mind the first time. But dramatically it worked better to put it at NMR. At least that felt like when Willow would be willing to committ herself fully to Tara, with no memories or feelings for Oz lingering over her.

The timing of the whole relationship and them getting together is hard to get down as exactly how time passed in the show is hard to say for sure. Given that they are in California so we don't see the seasons changing, and they skip most of the holidays, it is hard to say exactly how much time is really passing. Very hard to say.

Garner

[Willowlover]

I think the first time that Willow and Tara got closer than holding hands was in New Moon Rising, although when Tara said that she always knew if Oz came back she would be with him makes it seem like they where realy close before that. If it was before NMR than it was probably the episode where Buffy joins the Innitiative and Willow stays the night at Tara's Dorm room.