How Fast Were Willow and Tara ?

[sprhrgrl]

(nod) I think the whole reason Oz was brought back into the picture was to get him out of the way and push those pretty girls on the path toward their destiny and amazingly happy future together.

Sweetie, I'm a fag. I been there. - Tara (Dead Things shooting script)

A muscle cramp? in your. . . pants? - Tara (Older & Far Away)

I can scramble an egg, I won't eat it but I can scramble it. - Amber

[TKOLove]

Yup, gotta say I'm in The Rose24's corner on this. Willow had sort of been "all over" Tara, at the very least by hugging her and crying on her shoulder. And Tara is wearing Will's sweater (perhaps they added to the emotional confusion by getting a little hot and heavy after the whole, "do what makes you happy" scene).



I recall that Oz could smell Willow half way across town when he and Cordelia were looking for her and Xander during the "fluke" incident, so we know it doesn't take much for his honker to pick up Willowscent amongst many other scents.



I also agree that "out longer" was referring to Tara's acceptance of her sexuality, not to the fact that she'd had partners before. When we're first introduced to Tara, she's painfully shy, to the extent of looking down, hiding her face all the time. So even though she knew she found girls attractive, unless she accidentally, repeatedly bumped into one of them back home, I doubt she was seeing any action. (Pardon the phrasing.)



The best part of all of this is that we're still having these conversations so long after the show tanked.

...when we find That Kind of Love...

[Warduke]

About Tara being out longer, I also took that has her knowing she was gay longer than Willow did, not that she had other relationships before. Remember when we first met Tara, she was painfully shy, and with what her brother said about her, no way she had any lovers before leaving home.



And about Willow not wanting to make love to Tara until she was sure, well a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Willow isn't as chaste as they would like to believe



Remember, her and Oz had sex when he was ready. Willow wanted to have sex way before then. So why would that change? Why would she wait with Tara? If she wanted Tara (duh!) she would have made a move on Tara, and although Tara was very shy, she had already fallen head over heels for Willow, so she would have never said no to Willow.

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[urnofosiris]

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I just don't buy that their first time was in "TIIT." This is way too soon. Something significant happens, that's for sure(I vote for heavy making out). As far as we know, they only see each other once between "Hush" and "TIIT"(Re: The floating rose spell).



NMR is perfect because all issues are resolved. Anything before this is way too unfair to Tara(IMO). I am sure Willow knows it too. Tara finally has Willow's full commitment at the end of NMR.



Re: Oz smelling Willow's scent on Tara

1) Tara is wearing Willow's sweater

2) Willow's tears(from crying on Tara)

3) They hug and hold each other

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I don't think we will ever agree on this particular point, but I don't mind, I just enjoy trying to counter your points with my own.



I also believe TIIT was too soon, but I really don't believe they would have only seen each other once between Hush and then. Clearly we have not seen most of what on between WT, no first kiss, no first time, Willow telling Tara about Oz etc. The Floating Rose spell did not strike me as the first magic they performed together after the soda machine. I can't prove it, but I really don't believe it. After the ending of Hush, no way Willow would have waited that long to contact Tara again. If the only times they saw each other where what we saw onscreen, then even NMR would still be fast for their first time.



I don't think a time before NMR would have been too unfair on Tara, just like NMR would not have been too unfair on Willow (will explain this later). NMR shows that Willow did tell Tara about Oz, but she probably never expected him to come back. I don't see how she would have waited for him, especially as in her heart she must have known she had found her true love in Tara. I don't think Willow would have waited moving forward after WAY. Tara of course kept her doubts, not so much about Willow's love for her, and certainly not her own love for Willow, but her own insecurities would not have stopped her from fearing she would lose Willow to Oz one day, no matter how good they had it together.



Tara did still have the family lie looming over her head, a lie that she believed and carried with her. By the end of NMR whatever Oz troubles there were may have been resolved, but Tara still carried her own secret. Whatever doubts we may have about the exact moment of their first lovemaking, there can be no doubt that they made love at the end of NMR, and Tara did it knowing she would probably lose Willow in the not so distant future anyway. So I don't think Tara would have shied back from involving herself intimately with Willow before the Oz thing was completely resolved. I think Tara allowed herself to enjoy her first real chance at happiness knowing full well it might be brief.



As for Oz smelling Willow all over Tara, he was smelling more than hugs and tears I am sure. He smelled sex, that desperate passionate kind of this might very well be the last time lusty loving type of sex. He smelled Willow scent before Tara came around the corner, but when he walked up to Tara and took a closer sniff he smelled more. Tara was wearing her sweater so of course she had Willow's scent with her, that could not have been enough to make him wolf out. I am sure Buffy and Willow shared their pieces of clothing and hugs when Oz was still around. Why did he freak out now? He realized he was not just smelling the sweater, he could smell Willow *all over* Tara, with the emphasis on all over.



I believe they had sex that day, but I don't believe that would have been their first time. They were familiar with each other in every way by then, and hungry for each other, as well as in love. Willow made her choice, knowing everything that choice entailed (including sex), and she chose true love over first love and gay sex over straight sex. Hip hip hurrah.

The last mosquito that bit me had to check into the Betty Ford Clinic.

--Patsy Stone

[xita]

YOu mean they made love G but yeah I mean for sure he's smelled Buffy crying on Willow, etc. This smell had to be something that would leave no doubt in his mind about what was going on. I don't think love has a smell, but I know what does

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"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[urnofosiris]

Nah, I definitely think they were having sex when they were making love.

The last mosquito that bit me had to check into the Betty Ford Clinic.

--Patsy Stone

[sam7777]

I agree on the smell 'o' sex being what Oz got off of Tara though they may not have gone all the way that time. I think they had their first kiss/make out in TIIT and first all the way sex in WAY. I'm sorry we didn't get to see any if their firsts cuz I would have loved to see Aly/Amber play it. That said, I don't miss the fact that the likes of Joss/Marti never wrote it (I'm certain they would have made it suck) as I much prefer what the many fine authors at Pens a have written about their first kiss and first time.

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About Tara being out longer, I also took that has her knowing she was gay longer than Willow did, not that she had other relationships before.

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Warduke: Agreed. I doubt that Tara was ever attracted to men. I'm also betting that she had no opportunities to date when she lived with her family. It sounds like they were in a community with little diversity and tolerance and any gays there would have been deeply closetted. it also fits into why Tara went away from home. She fled the abuse but was also prolly looking to explore her sexuality. I think that Willow was her first and only love and it's really a miracle to find you soul mate first time out.

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I see dead lesbian cliches

[Garner]

Because we never did see a lot of these firsts we'll never know and can hypothesize quite a bit. I actually think that back in season 4 Marti Noxious and Josswad would have been able to do OK by W/T in first kisses or first love/sex if they tried. It seems that back then Josswad cared more and was putting effort into the show. By season sux I wouldn't trust him to fill out his address correctly.



I never thought W/T quite had sex in that gap before Tara runs into Oz. Why would he need to ask if they were involved if he smelled that level of intimacy on her? My guess is that they did makeout, grope or pet and that Tara got aroused and then they stopped. Though the idea of "one last time" might have been operating for Tara, I think Willow would have been too distracted to go all the way at that time.



I also wonder about Willow and Tara's interaction in Where the Wild Things Are. Willow putting her hand on Tara's knee, the big revulsion Tara expresses on that, and then Willow later saying people were acting oddly, sexually. That could have been a good time for them to have explicitily discussed how they felt and where they were going.



It is interesting that in just about every season 4 fic I've read the outcome is always slightly different. I know Kirk has them waiting quite a while in his Outside In, but that has time progressing fairly quickly with little outside the show happening. My own take has a lot more time passing. It is harder to decide who did what when without looking at how much time is passing and what else is going on between them. At least it all makes for some interesting discussion.



Garner

[sam7777]

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By season sux I wouldn't trust him to fill out his address correctly.

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Garner: LOL. Given what happened since, I think that their being able to show sex would have led to Josswad acting out his little snuff fantasies sooner (he planned to kill Tara in Hush before he saw the awesome chemistry of Amber/Aly). In any case, I prefer what Kittens say and speculate to anything Josswad or Marti Noxious could have dreamed up even in season 4. Sorry. Really not a fan of the ME'ers.



The all night thing on TIIT could have been sex, a makeout session or their just talking all night. It definitely marks the next stage in their intimacy, however. In WTWTA. Willow seems surprised that Tara got upset over her hand on the knee so I imagine that shows me that they had a level of intimacy before. I remain convinced that WAY was their first time "going all the way" but mostly because they seemed closer after that to me. In NMR, I'm sure it was Willow's arousal that Oz smelled on Tara but it's hard to gage the level of intimacy that Willow and Tara might have done to get her scent all over Tara (I do love how Seth and Amber played that scene since that "she's all over line" is almost impossible to say with a straight face, they really made that scene work).



Amber/Aly's performance always managed to convey alot more heat than was ever on the page and at times, I found the dialogue on the show was pretty cringeworthy (case in point the "I don't just come to spells" scene in Goodby Iowa , I think, badly written by Marti Noxious and only barely saved by Amber/Aly IMHO). Frankly, I didn't really see Willow/Tara as a real couple till I started to read fanfic. We just didn't get enough of them on the show IMHO.

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I see dead lesbian cliches

[Warduke]

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Why would he need to ask if they were involved if he smelled that level of intimacy on her?

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Because when he smelled that on Tara, he knew she had sex with Willow. I think it has to be sex, because anything else would not have made him lose his cool so fast. And if Oz is known for anything, it's keeping his cool.



Willow sleeping with someone would have really caught Oz by surprise. Remember he said he had asked Xander if Willow had a "new guy", and Willow told him she didn't (well she wasn't lying ) So he thought she wasn't seeing anyone. So finding out that Willow was indeed involved with someone else would have thrown him for a loop...and it did.

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[xita]

It's funny, when I am reading fic, writers can convince me of most anything. And I agree with the person who said that they like this ambiguity. I think it certainly is still fun to dicuss. If we had a set date, we couldn't still discuss it and so many wonderful fics would still not be written about it.



Personally, with the show it is hard to say that they didn't do anything before NMR. I am not sure if they went all the way in that period between oz visits. However, I think they had opportunity to go all the way before that and almost certainly did. I think that smell he smelled was certainly sexual but it could have been heavy make out or sex,

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"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[itsnotaspell]

Thanks to Xita I was able to go back and look at the clip and the thing that strikes me is how truly and visably relieved Tara is when Willow tells her nothing happened and even follows it up with a "Really?" (also the first hint of jealous Tara) And then when Willow is talking about how things have changed she says to Tara "and then we..." and Tara gives a half smile and says "what?" but it goes unanswered. The only thing I could ever fit into there was "we became lovers".



The whole cat getting thing, I think, was also just another of those silly euphemisms and I took it to mean that Willow was sleeping in Tara's bed alot and that Tara was not only concerned for Willow's comfort but didn't want anything to disturb the goodness going on.



I agree with Warduke on the whole smell thing...and I can totaly see that whole emotional moment turning into what they both thought may be "last time" love making.



The thing about NMR, for me, is that it's for all the marbles. Choosing between two lovers, coming out to your best friend and recognizing in yourself a fundemental change and dealing with it. I think the end signifies their willingness to go to the next level of an open love and committment to each other.





oh...and this IS fun.

[Garner]

Itsnotaspell, I definitely agree, this has been a fun discussion. The funny thing is, this is the first time that I have seen anyone address that gap between Willow and Tara hugging and Oz and Tara meeting and wondering exactly what went on there. Not a single fanfic I've read has had them go as far as full sex then. And it never came up in this thread before either. Not that I don't entirely agree with the idea that that could have happened. We never got a sense of how long that gap was, but I didn't feel it was long enough for that, or that Willow was really in any mood for sex.



I don't think it would have taken full sex for Oz to be freaked out. My view tends towards if he had smelled sex on Tara, he would have turned period, no partial change and warning. It seemed like it took him a bit to get worked up to the change point and had to realize what he was smelling and what the implications were. Tara had Willow's scent all over her, from hugging, making out maybe, just cuddling and being comforted maybe, and that is not something he would have expected. Certainly not all over her and not with some sexual tinge there as well. For that matter, how did Oz not smell Xander on Willow when they were illictly making out back in season 3? Shouldn't he have noticed something then? Maybe Oz is a bit more selective over what he smells than we think.



Sam7777 I tend to agree that Josswad may have gone ahead and killed Tara earlier if the relationship had been more explicit and graphic on screen. I totally agree that Amber/Aly are the ones who made the relationship work and that some of the writing, especially in GBI was really poor. But some was very good too, and ME did have a time when they were good and new what they were doing. I won't take away the credit they deserve early on for the melt down that occurred later. I WILL up the amount of credit I give to all the actors involved, and will never forgive Josswad or watch their crap in the future, but at one time they had something. Too bad they lost it.

I think I saw W/T as a couple or at least heading that direction early on, but did they feel like a couple? I think Family made me think that more clearly. You are definitely right that we certainly didn't get enough of them on screen (too much Dawn and then Spike!) which is a shame. I definitely felt that in Tough Love they were acting coupley, but then I didn't start reading fan fic till after season 5 was over.



Garner

[Sheridan]

With regard to the Oz/Tara scene in NMR I think its fairly certain that Willow and Tara had sex prior to that moment. The whole sweater thing doesn't really make sense outside of a certain confusion over clothing while getting dressed in a hurry. At they very least they must have gotten into a serious make out session since I'm quite sure Oz wouldn't have gotten upset over just ordinary Willow smell, especially as Tara was wearing Willow's sweater. That implies it was an altogether more 'energetic' scent that Oz picked up. I would favour TIIT as their first time, I sort of envision them being bit buzzed about the spell sitting on the bed talking, Willow impulsively kisses Tara, and one thing leads to another...

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

[urnofosiris]

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posted by Garner

Tara had Willow's scent all over her, from hugging, making out maybe, just cuddling and being comforted maybe, and that is not something he would have expected. Certainly not all over her and not with some sexual tinge there as well. For that matter, how did Oz not smell Xander on Willow when they were illictly making out back in season 3? Shouldn't he have noticed something then? Maybe Oz is a bit more selective over what he smells than we think.

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If this proves anything, it proves that he would not get upset over the mere smell of Willow on one of her friends or vice versa, even if Willow was making out instead of just hugging. So yea, he probably is selective in what he smells. He did not freak out over Xander leaving his scent on Willow because for all he knew, it could have been just a hug. He did not smell sex then, because that had been no sex, and thank heaven for small mercies.



Willow hugs her friends, that is nothing new. He knew Tara was her friend, he saw Tara was wearing her sweater, so why did he freak out over a smell when he did not freak out after Willow had kissed Xander? Why would he freak out now, if all Willow and Tara did was hug and make out? Maybe Willow and Tara did something that day which Willow and Xander did not do, and that something was what he smelled.



It's not so strange it took him a few moments to figure it out. He totally was not expecting it because like he said, Willow was with him all night and she never said anything. He clearly did not even sense Willow's feelings for another, he thought she did not have another guy and the thought never occured to him she might have another *girl*, until he smelled her all over Tara.



Edit: well Brian said the same thing only in three sentences or so. I got to learn that trick one day.

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posted by TKO

I'm guessing that the return of a philandering wolfboy wouldn't have had quite the impact if she'd made love to her soulmate. Willow strikes me as an "all-the-way" commitment kind of girl. The emotional and spiritual bond she and Tara shared, coupled with lovemaking...I just don't see that being easily challenged by his mere return, especially after how deeply he hurt her before he left.

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Ok, I believe they made love before NMR, but I don't see how that would prevent her from being rattled and torn by Oz' return to the extend that she was. Before she met Tara she thought Oz was the love of her life and Willow being the anally retentive different colored pens kind of girl might have had this big romantic notion of what that would mean and have written down her future and imagined her life with him, but she confused first love for true love. Still, she loved him and before she met Tara she wished for him to come back more than anything. Then she met Tara and found something even better, but when Oz returned those old feeling and wishes were there again. She got her wish and now she had to choose. His return also forced her to fess up and come out, that alone is reason enough to be rattled. Up till then no one had a clue about her and Tara (except Faith), now all of a sudden she had no choice but to come out. So she had to let go of her old idea of what her love for Oz meant and she had to come out, her confusion made sense to me regardless of whether she had made love to Tara by then. It's not always that easy to choose between something which is familiar, safe and good and something which is new, uncertain and fantastic.

The last mosquito that bit me had to check into the Betty Ford Clinic.

--Patsy Stone

Edited by: DrG at: 11/13/03 1:18 pm

[TKOLove]

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And then when Willow is talking about how things have changed she says to Tara "and then we..." and Tara gives a half smile and says "what?" but it goes unanswered. The only thing I could ever fit into there was "we became lovers".

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You make some interesting points...as do all the kittens regarding this fun topic. The one above really got me thinking.



Ok, what we know to be true: Oz broke Willow's heart when he served up a great big dish of infidelity and topped it off with a sprinkling of abandonment. Slowly (in TV time, anyway), Willow began to heal. She met Tara. By the time NMR rolled around, W/Ts relationship had blossomed into...something very powerful.



But if W/T had made love before NMR, I honestly don't think that Willow would have been so torn by Oz's return. I mean, yeah, there's naturally a big shock of seeing him again, but she'd given up on the idea of getting back what she and Oz had since she'd not heard a peep from him in forever...and she clearly was enjoying her time with Tara.



I'm guessing that the return of a philandering wolfboy wouldn't have had quite the impact if she'd made love to her soulmate. Willow strikes me as an "all-the-way" commitment kind of girl. The emotional and spiritual bond she and Tara shared, coupled with lovemaking...I just don't see that being easily challenged by his mere return, especially after how deeply he hurt her before he left.



I always thought Willow was about to say something like, "and then we...we fell in love," but she wasn't ready to use that word quite yet...and Tara so wanted to hear it.



Or perhaps I'm on heavy medication and you all should ignore my ramblings.

...when we find That Kind of Love...

[Warduke]

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oh and I think what made Oz flip was not his realization that they were sleeping together...he might have even been able to deal with that...it was when he asked if Tara was in love with Willow.

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Good point, but Oz didn't ask Tara if she was in love with Willow, he asked her if Willow was in love with her. Finding out that not only is Willow seeing someone, but that she's in love would easily push him over the edge.

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

Edited by: Warduke at: 11/13/03 1:40 pm

[urnofosiris]

Yeah, but what would prompt him to ask Tara if Willow was in love with her? Not the smell of hugs and tears I am sure, for all he knew she could have been crying tears of joy on her friend's shoulder at the return of her first love. Nope, I'm sure he smelled something sexual, maybe he could not really place it at first. It had been a while since he smelled Willowsex, and he certainly never smelled Willow like that on someone else, and he must have smelled Tara too, so that might have thrown him off and that is why he did not gobble Tara up on the spot but had the time to put two and two together first.

The last mosquito that bit me had to check into the Betty Ford Clinic.

--Patsy Stone

Edited by: DrG at: 11/13/03 1:54 pm

[Warduke]

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For that matter, how did Oz not smell Xander on Willow when they were illictly making out back in season 3? Shouldn't he have noticed something then?

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Garner, that just proves to me that W/T did have sex before Oz ran into Tara. I think Oz did smell Xander on Willow, but he didn't think twice about it. He probably just thought they hugged. Same thing with smelling Buffy or Giles on Willow. But when it came to smelling Tara, it was totally different, because Tara had done a lot more than kiss Willow. And that's why he lost it.

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[itsnotaspell]

TKO Love wrote:

But if W/T had made love before NMR, I honestly don't think that Willow would have been so torn by Oz's return.



That's what I think my point kind of is...I think the fact that they were lovers is what made the whole thing so difficult and poignant. I think what came with the extra flamey scene were the "i love yous" and that they would let everyone (not just Buffy) know that they were together in a fully realized relationship.



oh and I think what made Oz flip was not his realization that they were sleeping together...he might have even been able to deal with that...it was when he asked if Tara was in love with Willow.



Wow, I'm just thinking what would happen if I analysed my own relationships like this...good thing I'm shallow.

[Sheridan]

If all Oz smelled were hugs and tears wouldn't he have, with no other evidence to the contrary, have assumed they were prompted by him and interrogated Tara as to what was making Willow so unhappy? Wouldn't he have pursued a whole different line of logic centering around whether Willow could forgive him, wanyed him back, etc? He would not have jumped to the, correct, conclusion without stronger evidence. I think his instincts told him what that very particular scent meant but his brain took a few seconds to play catchup.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

[The Rose24]

I agree with with what a few other kittens have said. I really think Willow and Tara are too emotionally distressed to make love between the hugs and caresses in Tara's room and Tara running to Oz in the hallway. I'll buy a heavy comfort or makeout session.



All of their pent up tension is released after that candle is blown out.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Edited by: The Rose24  at: 11/13/03 7:32 pm

[sam7777]

Garner: I'm not taking away credit from Joss because I never gave it to him. I loved what Amber and Aly did but was frustrated with the lack of screen time, lame dialogue and censorship even in 4th season and more so in 5th season when we rarely saw them together.



I don't think Willow's ambivalence about Oz meant that she and Tara were not intimate. I always felt from the start that Willow had chosen Tara and her ambivalence came more from coming out and having to tell Oz and Buffy. I always saw her feelings for Oz as more of a "first love" crush. For me. most of Tara's angst in the ep came from her own felling of inadequacy which led her to think that Willow would choose Oz over her. For me it's the dialogue makes it confusing but IMHO the way Aly acted it with Willow's concern for Tara convinced me that Willow chose Tara but Tara was too hurt to see it. Aly's perfomance as Willow with Oz didn't show the same warmth or caring as her scenes with Amber.

[The Rose24]

I guess we read the expressions differently. It looks to me that Tara is surprised, a bit nervous, but also happy and excited. She has Willow finally, completely, once and for all. There is nothing else holding them back and nothing else will come between them. To me that is what makes their first time so romantic, special and powerful.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Edited by: The Rose24  at: 11/13/03 8:46 pm

[xita]

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I'm guessing that the return of a philandering wolfboy wouldn't have had quite the impact if she'd made love to her soulmate. Willow strikes me as an "all-the-way" commitment kind of girl. The emotional and spiritual bond she and Tara shared, coupled with lovemaking...I just don't see that being easily challenged by his mere return, especially after how deeply he hurt her before he left.

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I am with itsnotaspell here. I think that Willow had not committed to Tara, perhaps not even said I love you. I think that's what takes Tara by surprise there at the end of the show that Willow says she's with the one she loves. Tara is not one bit surprised or ignorant about what's going to happen when the lights go out. I think oz' return meant that Willow had to make a decision once and for all, straight girl or gay girl. It's easy I think to not comfront the issue, but once faced with it, she really had to just put it all on the table. She didn't want to hurt Oz as well. Willow is that kind of person. Was she going to choose Oz because she was loved him more or was still in love with him? I think for Willow the choice was, follow the gay life and be with the person she was now in love with or choose a convenient way out and try to live in denial. Willow can say all she wants about keeping Tara to herself, but she kept Tara a secret because of her sexuality as well.



So to me, the fact that w/t might have made love before NMR does not steal anything from NMR. It's still poignant, she finally decides to follow her heart and truly give in to the love inside and commit to Tara. Sigh. .

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"Hard work often pays off after time but laziness always pays off now!"

[itsnotaspell]

here, here!!



very eloquently put Xita.

[Warduke]

Very well said xita.



That's what NMR is all about. It's not about Willow choosing between Oz and Tara, it's about Willow making that choice, live in the closet and never be who she really is, or be honest and live her life, out in the open, with the woman she loves.

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It looks to me that Tara is surprised, a bit nervous, but also happy and excited. She has Willow finally, completely, once and for all. There is nothing else holding them back and nothing else will come between them. To me that is what makes it so romantic, special and powerful.

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I agree Rose, but it doesn't have to be their first time to be romantic, special and powerful. It was all of those things because they were finally a real couple. No more lies, no more secrets, everyone knows, they are finally free to be themselves.

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Firebird: One Browser To Rule Them All.

[TKOLove]

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By DrG: It's not always that easy to choose between something which is familiar, safe and good and something which is new, uncertain and fantastic.

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It bugs me that so many people here use logic to confuse me. I applaud your rationale, DrG. But IMHO, Oz was no longer familiar, safe, or good for Willow by NMR. I just don't see her having difficulty choosing btw Oz and Tara if she'd made love to Tara. But I certainly agree that his coming back forced her to deal with her sexuality. That's another reason I don't believe WT had made love until after NMR. It's exactly due to the fact that Willow is everyone's favorite "have all my ducks in a row" girl...it just doesn't seem right that she'd sleep with Tara before coming to terms with what it meant to do so.



Isn't it fun to ponder?

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I guess we read the expressions differently. It looks to me that Tara is surprised, a bit nervous, but also happy and excited. She has Willow finally, completely, once and for all. There is nothing else holding them back and nothing else will come between them. To me that is what makes their first time so romantic, special and powerful.

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Exactly how I saw it too, Rose.

...when we find That Kind of Love...

Edited by: maudmac  at: 11/14/03 7:40 am

[Warduke]

I really don't understand why some people say she wouldn't have made love to Tara before the end of NMR because of the issues she had when Oz came back.



Oz coming back had nothing to do with what happened before NMR. She had no idea he was coming back, so why would she have any issues that would stop her from having sex with Tara before NMR?



She didn't have any Oz issues at all after meeting Tara. What issues she did have were about her sexuality. That's why she kept Tara a secret for so long. That's why she lied to Buffy about where she was and who she was with. But all of that had nothing to do with Oz. I never saw NMR as a choice between Oz and Tara. Willow had already made that choice. I saw Oz's coming back as what forced Willow to come out to her friends.



To me it all comes down to the fact that she had no clue Oz was coming back. So why would she have waited till the end of NMR. If he had never showed up, what would she have been waiting for? For Oz to possibly show up, sometime in the future? Until then just keep stringing Tara along?



Please

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Edited by: Warduke at: 11/15/03 8:58 am

[sam7777]

Prior to "Hush", Willow spent alot of time moping for Oz but after she met Tara, Oz was nonexistenent. My take was that she had movied on at that point. Oz was gone and she hadn't heard form him in months, it seems unlikley to me at least that she couldn't move on. I think she did move on to Tara though and Oz's return had a 2-fold problem: hurting him by choosing tara and coming out. I never got the impression duing NMR that Willow was conflicted about choosing Tara or Oz but more conflicted about telling Oz the truth and telling her friends.

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