Early signs of Willows lesbianism (S1-3)

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

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originally posted by tommo, the evil lesbian bitch

No but, The Rose, I think you have to try and understand that from a gay woman's perspective, that's kind of insensitive. I mean, I myself am considered desirable by many men, and I often have to turn them down. I'm gay because men don't do it for me, not because I don't do it for them. Clearly I do.

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She is you know, speaking as your typical ultra straight cavemale I can vouch for her irresistable attraction. She turned me down cold of course. Lesbians.

Edited by: DrG at: 4/5/02 12:18:50 am

[WebWarlock]

Quote:

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Heh ... I always called guys like Web Warlock Lesbros. *G*

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A lesbro! My wife will be so pleased.



Didn't remember that rainbow on Willow's backpack. But I did have a wierd thought. Ok follow along with me here.



In "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" Amy cast a love spell for Xander that affected every woman who saw him, except Cordy and especially Willow. Willow even threw herself at him (gotta hand it to the Xan-man, In high school I would have been...well I was in high school). Now Giles makes the comment that everyone but Cordy was effected because of her necklace.

I think Giles was being too British. Cordy was not effected because she already loved Xander (in a high school way). Ah! You say (go ahead and say it, "Ah"), "But Willow was effected too and she also loved Xander!"



This is my point. Willow's love then was platonic, not romantic. That's why she was effected (and Buffy too for that matter). Cordy who had romantic feelings for Xander was not. The point. Not whether or not Willow was gay (she is btw) but that her original love was platonic and she thought it was romantic.



Now...if she made that mistake once, could she not have made it again at lets say the same time with Oz? Maybe. This is only theory and a little fun.



But it is obvious that when she grows up and learns what love is all about who she chooses. I'll direct your attention the big screen TV showing the final scene from NMR in the Kitty Hall of Fame.



Warlock.

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Web Warlock,
web.warlock@attbi.com

The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/

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Liber Mysterium: the Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

Edited by: WebWarlock at: 4/5/02 5:10:09 am

[Lindy]

I think I get WW's point, although he used so many words



Everybody who didn't love Xander in a romantic way (=every woman except Cordy) was effected by the spell. Including a (gay) Willow.

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Are hamsters made out of ham?

[urnofosiris]

Heh heh, nice theory Warlock, I am sure that will ruffle some feathers of die hard W/X and/or W/O shippers (and the obligatory disclaimer: I do believe she really loved Oz once). Although I'd say that, even if she did not love Xander in a totally romantic or a I had a crush on him since I was 5 so I think I am in love kind of way, that is not really an early sign of her lesbianism, but oh hell, what I am I blabbing about? I like your theory, a nice refreshment from the ones that say she loved a guy once so she can't be gay.

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Willow is GAY now and forever. Take it or Leave

[tommo]

Well you know, I thought I was in love with a guy once. But by the time Garfield and I finally got together, I was totally gay. Shame, but that's the way it happens sometimes.

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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!

[Under Her Spell]

I get around the BB&W spell by saying it affected any female, regardless of sexuality. I mean, it affected Buffy, and everyone know's she's gay.

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"Sometimes, the fans are going "no, no, no!" and we know we are heading somewhere they will like."

- Marti Noxon



¦ Slain by Buffy ¦

[girlwiththebraids]

see...but i'm in the willow really did love oz camp...but that doesn't mean i don't think she's gay now...and i think she did love xander, too...but the fact is, you can love a man and still find out as you discover more about yourself that you aren't likely to ever feel that way toward a man again...it's part of growing up.



on a really simplistic level, willow outgrew falling for boys just like buffy has to outgrow "the badboy thing" as it were...it's about coming into your own and knowing who YOU are



braids

"Is she your sister?"

"She's my everything."



"Oh...Oh! It's not a...gay...thing...I mean...she is...gay...but we don't...gay...Not that there's anything..."

[Gatito Grande]

I saw this thread referenced on another, and couldn't resist digging it up.



I was turned on to BTVS during the summer of '97 by a woman w/ a XWP website, who had discovered BTVS and talked it up, as well (she even had a short Buffy/Xena cross-over fic on it).



Well, being the XWP subtext hound I was at the time, her praise of BTVS initially had no draw for me: all the girls on it were straight, right? Well, Maria said, yeah, but: there's this adorable character, Willow. She's so clueless: she's hung up on this geek, Xander. Why can't she see how much hotter Buffy is?! That's all it took (well, that and the "chicks kick ass" angle) for me to check it out.



By the end of the summer (WB had re-run all of season 1), Xander made the remark that if Willow "wants to ask you (Buffy) to the dance, she's playing it awfully close to the vest": a little thing, to be sure. But (in addition to having fallen completely for Willow myself!) it told me that this show might go in some very interesting directions. It didn't take a genius to see that Willow had a pretty undeveloped sexuality at that point: that her feelings for Xander had a lot more to do w/ who they had been at age 6 than w/ what she was currently feeling for him at 16.



Even the following year, her feelings for Xander, then Oz, were no more sexual than "smoochies." A long way from Buffy's "it's getting harder to say good-night" lust for Angel! Had Willow not got caught cheating w/ Xander, making her over-compensate w/ Oz, Willow might never have proposed doing "that thing," and shown little interest for anything more than "smoochies" w/ Oz.



In short, quite apart from anything hinted at in "Doppelgangland," Willow's sexuality upon entering college was largely unformed. She had fallen into the straight groove, as it were, simply out of being raised in a heterosexist society. If there was nothing particularly hinting at her nascent lesbianism, there was little that wasn't, either. Sexually speaking, Willow was a "tabula rasa"---on which (with Willow's ecstatic collaboration!) Tara composed a masterpiece.



GG Maria Erbe, wherever you are: thank you Out

[miss calendar]

Lots of interesting posts and a great essay Under Your Spell. Glad to find I'm not the only one who had a crush on Jenny Calendar, I was so upset when she was killed though it doesn't compare to how I've felt since Tara was shot. It never occurred to me that Willow had a crush on Jenny but it does make sense and I can remember how torn Willow was with divided loyalties after the revelation that Jenny had been sent by her gypsy clan. Willow didn't stop talking to her even though the other Scoobies cut her off. Remember that scene where Buffy interrupts the two of them and Willow tries to justify herself on the grounds that Jenny is a teacher.



I also think that right from the start Willow had a crush on Buffy even if it wasn't conscious or sexualised.

In fact even way back in Welcome to the Hellmouth when Willow seizes the day and goes off with the vampire I always thought she did it more to gain Buffy's approval than because she was interested in the vampire.



And, at the risk of looking foolish, I think that initially Willow had a crush on Faith. In the Bronze she seemed just as taken with this new Slayer as Xander was and remember how quickly she blew off her study date with Buffy to spend time with Faith? While I don't think it was acted on I do think that there was a triangle going on between Willow/Buffy/Faith with Buffy and Faith attracted to each other and Willow attracted to both of them, Buffy as someone she loved and Faith as someone she found sexy and exciting.

[primalfigure]

Okay 1st off: Willow is gay. I don't dispute that at all.



Here's my theories kitties. 2nd - a woman can have many relationships with men, and be sexually involved and invested emotionally...but still lack satisfaction...and feel like it's a routine, expected of them, or a sham.

I think that Willow's infatuation with Xander was just that...Infatuation. Willow's relationship with Oz, was more complicated...while probably attracted to him intellectually, and personality wise, I think that the sexual part was forced by the transgression with Xander (kissing him out of curiousity possibly, hoping to feel what she didn't quite feel with Oz. Trying to find that "spark" that lets you know where your sexual attractions lie. *Wildly theorizing here*)

After said transgression Willow felt like because she did "care" for Oz, that she should "make love" to him. The decision to do so, before she thought she'd die : Graduation day Pt. 2 ...seems telling. Willow is still connected to Oz because he was her first... on the intimate level...with her. He would always be a part of her, but not with her. Thus her statement in "New Moon Rising" - that she would always expect him to be there wherever she was, because of this. He is part of a big moment in her life, but not a real, true love.

Not until Tara, do we see the romantic sparks fly. The electricity of their relationship, from the start was more than infatuation, simple platonic attraction, but pure thinly disguised sexual attraction. Developing into true love. Real, true love. Willow's relationships are complex, but who's life isn't???

[alyamber4ever]

Ok, I know that the rainbow on Willow's back pack has been mentioned, but I noticed something. In one of the first episodes of the 2nd season you get a shot of Willow's backpack.....and I dont' know if it was just my eyes playing tricks on me or were the straps to Willow's backpack Rainbow too.??

[Penrose Orleans]

I'm not an expert on early seasons (I jumped on board w/Tara, though I had occasionally watched before that) but I'm wondering if maybe there just weren't any signs-- after all, though she might fit some deranged stereotypes, Willow herself 'comes out' firmly against the idea of her being gay (Dopplegangland). I think that ep is the only one that could be used, just because of the whole 'shows-the-true-evil-you' thing... ah well. Feel free to yell at me, rant, and throw tomatoes if you desire! (I'll use them to make gazpacho... mmmmmmmm)

Remember: If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off!

[urnofosiris]

Oh I won't throw anything, I happen to agree with you about there not being any signs but for Doppelgangland. Maybe it just never occured to Willow she is gay until she met Tara. That too has been known to happen. I know of a lady who had been partnerless until well into her twenties. Eventhough she had never been (in love) with a guy it never occurred to her she might be anything other than straight, not until she fell in love with a woman.



These days Joss Whedon's words means less than crap, but there was a time when he probably had moments of sincerity, and I believe he did not consider Willow to be gay until season 4, so any previous signs may just very well be coincidence or just one of those meant to be things that are out of our hands, it happens even with fiction we ourselves create and supposedly control. It happened with Willow and Tara. He created them, but they became larger than he could handle.



Oh irony being ironic, when I use the spell check, it suggests hedonist for Whedon.

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"I am giving you what you need, not what you want"
-The perfect excuse to be an asshole

Edited by: DrG at: 6/14/02 5:31:49 pm

[Penrose Orleans]

That's beautiful-- you should write him a letter where you mention that (among MANY other things, of course *wicked cackle ensues*) Oh well. I agree that sexuality isn't necessarily an independent thing-- sometimes it depends on meeting the right person... Therefore, if Willow and Tara were to be cloned, then introduced to every femae on the planet, the gay population would spring up immediately!!!

Remember: If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off!

[urnofosiris]

Oh no cloning thankee very much , all we needed was to see them on TV, just *one* more season. BtVS is shown all over the world, and all over Willow and Tara have made an impact and helped gays and the occasional trannie to come out and feel better about themselves. Of course Mr Whedon knew better and finally put a stop to it. Come to think of it,

'Whedonistic' really should be a new word:



Whedonism [ Whi-de-nizm ]: To cause and receive pain is the greatest good there is.

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"I am giving you what you need, not what you want"
-The perfect excuse to be an asshole

Edited by: DrG at: 6/14/02 5:45:10 pm

[Penrose Orleans]

Yes... and then the Whedonists would be those who sought out pain and trendy angst at all costs, avoiding happiness and basic human emotional needs! I see!

Remember: If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off!

[tommo]

I like your theory, Garfield, about Willow not realising she was gay until she met Tara. I mean, if something's not an issue, it's not something you think about I suppose is it?



I know I'm digging myself a hole here, but in my view, Willow had so many other things going on in her life before Season 4 that I think it wasn't until she got to university that she actually had a chance to sit back and review, if you like. And it was then that she started to think about herself, her wants, needs, desires, fulfilment...that kind of thing.



Or you know, once again, I could be talking complete bollocks. Sigh.

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Squish. Squish. Squish.

[Hemiola]

I noticed something interesting...



I have been watching my recently purchased set of the complete Season 2 DVDs (just issued here in the U.S.) and was looking at "Some Assembly Required" when I noticed something:



In the beginning Eric is snapping pictures of girls in order to choose a head for the "bride-of-Frankenstein" creature that he is assembling for Darryl. After taking a picture of Willow, he turns around to see a cheerleader-type girl walk by and drools "Look at those legs!"

Willow then immediately responds "No thanks."



Ah HA!!! I said to myself--she was already a breast gal, even at this stage. Perhaps her response might have been entirely different if he had drooled "Look at that rack!"

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"Love makes you do the wacky"

Willow in "When She Was Bad"

[Scoobiedoo]

Sorry for digging up this old thread, but this afternoon i managed to catch Helpless on cable and noticed this silly little bit from the end that reminded me of this thread.



Buffy grabs the peanut butter, tries to open the jar as she continues:



BUFFY

Things won't ever be exactly the same,

but once I... get back to... full...



She can't do it. Xander smiles at her condescendingly.



XANDER

Give you a hand with that, little lady?



Playful daggers in her eyes, she hands him the jar.



BUFFY

You're loving this far too much.



He takes the jar-



XANDER

Admit it. Sometimes you just need

a big strong...



-- and., smiling, completely fails to open it. He struggles, manfully, the smile fixed all the while to his face.



BLACK OUT.



XANDER (V.O.)

Uh, Will? You wanna give me a hand?







Apart from the fact that I love every moment that makes Xander look like a putz, i found it especially funny that he asked Willow (and not Oz or Joyce who were also there) to be 'the big strong man' for him and open the jar. Although this could lead into a lengthy and heated discussion on stereotypes and gender roles... I just thought it was kinda funny.

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This is love