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Is Willow a feminist?

Anything about Willow & Tara, Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson.

I Spit On Your Grave...

Postby cheesypoofs » Sat May 18, 2002 6:31 pm

I have seen "I Spit On Your Grave".



I saw when I was 18. A male friend wanted to witness my reaction to it. He set up a screening for myself and 2 other female friends.



A one word review for it would be..."Nauseating".

(And it still nauseates me to think of it, years later.)



There isn't anything remotely empowering about this pile of celluloid schlock. It is a grotesque, voyeuristic, borderline snuffscape of a woman "getting it" every which way possible.



I don't find being raped, crawling around in dirt, naked, running like an animal through the forrest, and becoming a killer, uplifting feminist imagery.



It really bums me to the bone that Joss finds this "empowering".



As side note: I am not a shrinking violet. My exterior is as fem as fem can be. But, I swear like truck driver (frequently) and gravitate towards darker works.



So when I say this movie is bad...believe me, it's bad.



A waste of an hour and 20 mins. of my life. And most definitely a fratboy's wetdream idea of fem empowerment.

cheesypoofs
 


Even women are weak sometimes.

Postby Prophecy730 » Sat May 18, 2002 8:12 pm

I was reading the first few posts and I was thinking, too much is expected of the characters. I know the female characters are supposed to portray empowered, strong female role models, but I really believe that the most realistic role model will have her weak moments. It's unreasonable to expect a character like Willow or Buffy to constantly do the the right thing, and to stand up for herself and to do the whole power thing. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with what Willow has become. But it's not like she turned around one day and was evil. She started out as our wonderful Willow who wanted to delve a little into magick and grew until it became too much for her. And when Tara died, she let herself fall back into it because it was already taking so much will power to stay away from magick in the first place, so can you blame her for breaking down after her lover dies? She got caught up in something bigger than her and when something so crucial and so life shattering happened, she was weak. Give her a break. And as for what the writers are trying to say, even women can't be strong all the time. We spent five seasons making them shatterproof heroes, maybe it's time to be more realistic. People change. People let things cloud their judgement, including Willow. And with that much power, I don't blame her.

Prophecy730
 


Re: Even women are weak sometimes.

Postby xita » Sat May 18, 2002 8:22 pm

You are missing the point. Willow can do anything she wants to I'll cut her all the slack in the world. I know I would in her shoes do that. What we are saying is that she has never shown the desire to take over the world or be the slayer, or whatever other nonsense they have her doing next week or to torture the innocent, just because. I don't know what the writers did when they were high, but this is pushing it a bit far.



And anyway, now back to the scheduled topic of the thread which was feminism. Even if you buy that she was being set up as an icon in Villains, she is shot down as the real evil to be defeated. If she had just done that and then gone back, it would make sense, but turning her into the real enemy with Buffy and DMW having a big knockout bitch fest... it's so terribly insulting. It's nauseating :puke

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow and Tara Love

Truly and Forever

xita
 


Re: I Spit On Your Grave...

Postby Killin Joke » Sat May 18, 2002 8:45 pm

Thanks for the review, cheesypoofs. Needless to say I agree no woman should ever have to endure rape, extreme fysical abuse,... Solely the suggestion makes my stomach turn, e.g. the mentioning of Freddy Krueger's mother being raped by x heavy criminals in one night /shiver/ Let alone, the scene in Cannibal Holocaust. And as much as I like Evil Dead (hard to believe those people gave us Xena), the raped by a tree branch scene is always hard to watch. Is it because we're women, therefor more sensitive to that stuff ? I don't think so (introduced myself to the horrorgenre the last years, so I can handle more than before) Everyone should feel like that, when they get confronted with such serious issues. It's tricky sometimes to draw the line: when does a movie puts it in to condemn it (The Accused ? with Jodie Foster) and when do they cross the border to gratuitous violence... A lot of movies show them, e.g. Once upon a time in America: twice: really shocking scenes, and the guy (played by Robert De Niro) doesn't pay for it. Difficult to see one of my favourite heroines, Buffy, lying helpless on the floor... Sarah's voice... Great acting, but that relationship with Spike was sick. Another addiction ? Tinge of love ? I try to grasp it, but I'm not as enlightened as Tara: she didn't condemn B and look where it got her. Damn, I'm gonna miss that girl... If they decide to make her a ghost, I already have some wicked ideas. Say, W&T's bond is so strong, T's spirit can't rest, and her essence is still visible to only Willow, Will can also touch her (hey, I follow the Xena-Gabrielle-theory). That would mean she could run around the house buttnaked at all times: I mean, who's gonna notice, except Will (and us viewers of course, he, he: ok, that was naughty: I can live with clothes, not too many, though :evil ) Tara could spend her time walking through walls, meanwhile scaring the living hell out of Dawn (Buffy might kick her in the process, being a slayer and all, if she found her roots again, that is) or haunt Xander out of the house: that should cheer us up Yeah, I've got it all mapped out: Willow floating in the air, because Tara scooped her up in her arms, etc. I've got this theory (based on wishfull thinking, but what else is new). I have this metalCD The Horror Show by Iced Earth, and every song is based on a popular, well-known horror-theme: you have the werewolf (Oz), Damian (the annointed one from the 1st season should do), Jack, the Ripper (hmm, there must be a guy with a butcher's knife in Buffy somewhere), this dragon creature under water (from the blue lagoon -> see: Go fish), Imhotep, mummy -> Inca mummy girl, Frankenstein (Some Assembly Acquired), Dracula (nuff said), Jeckyl and Hyde (well, pretty much Good and Evil Will) and there are 2! ghosts ! The Ghost of Freedom and the Phantom of the Opera, so I think Buffy might have a real asset by bringing in a real ghost. I mean: with all the vamps running around, what's one ghost, huh. And Cordelia has one in LA ! Will could call her and brag she has her own now. I know, I'm the "I don't accept defeat"-kinda girl. If it doesn't work out, we could all join together in a major virtual voodoo session. I already printed a T-shirt that has "Her soulmate got killed and all she got was this lousy tattoo" on it, I don't wanna spend money on another one.

Killin Joke
 


Re: I Spit On Your Grave...

Postby xita » Sat May 18, 2002 9:00 pm

The rape in Buffy was completely trivialized by not dealing with it. Spike isn't punished by law cause he is a demon, yet buffy doesn't pursue the punishment that Demons should have, in his case, a staking. Instead, we get him being trusted with a child and off to some heroic quest.



Buffy looks like a wishy washy bint who doesn't know what she wants and probably deserved the attack by spike. It's disgusting and I will never understand what they are trying to do this season.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow and Tara Love

Truly and Forever

xita
 


Re: I Spit On Your Grave...

Postby tommo » Sat May 18, 2002 10:34 pm

Well, I think that they built up the whole Spuffy relationship so much that in the end, all it ever did was demean the feminist angle that Buffy always seemed to have. All those times she'd stood strong in the face of adversity and held her own morals dear and true. Bah. Now she's preaching to Willow about her actions and adhering to some kind of patriarchal code that for me personally, no longer serves who I am or what I am.


----------
"Smut now." - Dark Madfic Tommo

tommo
 


Re: I Spit On Your Grave...

Postby EvilAnya » Sun May 19, 2002 5:08 am

Buffy looks like a wishy washy bint who doesn't know what she wants and probably deserved the attack by spike



I agree with this, but as a rape survivor i can't say this is exactly unrealistic. I blamed myself for what happened and tried my best to pretend it didn't happen.



Of course, this isn't what i want to see on television because television can't get that internal struggle across. It's something that you'd have to have felt to understand. And of course there are people who will forgive Spike for whatever he does. I want to see Buffy stake Spike for what he did, but i doubt that will ever happen. I doubt they will ever deal with it again, and that's what pisses me off the most.



The feminism that i used to see in the series is gone now. All season i've seen women constantly being dragged down and destroyed and it makes me sick.



I can understand how some could see DMW's vengeance against Warren as a kind of radical feminism, but that's just not my kind of feminism. By feminism isn't about vengeance against men who have wronged women, it's about ridding the world of male domination. But feminism can have as many definitions as people who practice it.

What are you going to do, B? Kill me- you become me. you're not ready for that...

EvilAnya
 


Feminism

Postby Killin Joke » Sun May 19, 2002 8:47 am

It's a very tricky notion to describe (as are most other similar topics), because all us mortals are different and will have their own interpretations, so here's my take on the subject. I believe every woman can become, be whatever the hell she wants to be. Women and men are equal and should therefor have the same rights, and treated as such. No discrimination (no positive discrimination either). If a woman wants to be a housewife: fine, I have no problems with that. As long as women have respect for themselves and stand up to defend their identity (-ies), deal with things, they hold a kind of integrity that empowers them. I have this hobby (well, it's been a while since I've practiced it), it's already out of the ordinary, but as a girl, I had to explain myself twice as hard to justify it. I have this interest in weapons (not in a violent way, more in a historical and sportive manner). During my travels I bought a couple of swords, daggers,... and I have this air rifle which I use to shoot indoor, on cards (never animals or humans), at a stand, in a shooting complex, at a distance of 10 meter. It's an Olympic discipline, but you should have seen the looks on people's faces in the past when I told them about my interests. They found it strange for a girl to be interested in stuff like that, weird that I never played with Barbies, but GI Jones (GI Jane wasn't there yet). Xena, Buffy action figures are cool to stand on your closet, but a pity they didn't come sooner. Anyway, that's why I found it super for series like XWP and Buffy to arrive: See, they can handle swords ! Buffy can shoot a crossbow, Will a tranquilizer gun (what I wouldn't give to see her use it on Whedon and co...) They were like the rolemodels I always missed when I was a child. You can imagine how disappointed I was when I noticed Buffy wasn't herself anymore during the last season. I've compared Buffy and Willow and they both react differently. When Buff had this one-night-stand with that jerk, when she started university, I was apalled... I didn't expect that to happen to my heroine, though it was very human, it can happen to any of us. I thought she would learn out of her mistakes, but apparently she didn't (that much). When Willow found out about Oz and his female werewolfie, she turned to magic. The build-up was already there, so I can understand where they wanted to go this season, up till Villains, that is. The final might screw everything up. In that respect, I can appreciate Will's reaction more, because she's willing to do something about it: "Act, don't react.", while Buffy was kinda pathetic in the last season. Because it's so realistic (one of my best friends always falling for the wrong guy, people I know who were raped but never reported it, and suffer from severe trauma's, depressions because of it,...) I hoped they would offer an other portrayel for the way they managed to cope with things. In stead, they just headed for the psychology textbook reaction: rape victims feel ashamed (maybe even feelings of guilt: did I brought it upon myself ?), don't dare to talk about it, or take action. Buffy should have staked Spike. He's not human, no matter how hard they want to try and make him that way. They give him a lot of credit, thanks to this chip, because he started to fight for the good side, but that rape attempt was inexcusable. Spike has this twisted view on love, doesn't see the boundaries between sex where both parties agree, and plain rape... It must be extremely difficult to make report of a rape, because it feels like you're going through it all over again. Some people decide to manage on their own: it's a legitimate choice. Women often get victimized: people say they asked for it, they shouldn't have dressed that way. Bullshit. You never ask for it: NO = NO They dealt sloppy with it, indeed. I still hope there will be some consequences, but I doubt it. They wanna keep Spike, because he's supposed to be this cool, muscled, whatever character: fine, but don't expect us to sit through a rape attempt and still think he can be redeemed afterwards. As for Will, I'm so scared they're gonna demolish her character entirely, and break off everything they build up in the previous seasons. Of all the Scoobies, she's definitely one who has grown the most. She had overcome her addiction, but I feel for her, when she gives in again after Tara's death. It isn't what Tara would want, but it's understandable. If anything, I'd rather see her doing something, than nothing, like Buffy. As for being the big bad in the final eps, the evil witch going up against her friends: that's just fucked up. In Villains it was still Willow: ok, another face than the one we used to see her wearing, but she did save Buffy's life, when she talked about Tara, before killing Warren, her voice broke. They just want us to believe Will isn't strong enough to resist the power-drive, and that's what bugs me. Feelings of insecurity, (former ?) nerdiness, being the undervalued, underestimated sidekick... Hm, partly true: Buff referred to her as her big gun. Will's proven her worth plenty of times. Tara saw her for what she really was. Not only a genius with computers, straight A student, but also beautiful, with this special sense of humour (and the list goes on). She didn't need magic to prove herself, Tara made her see that, but now it all goes to waste... I think I just would have thought Willow has evolved so much during the seasons, also gained a sort of self-worth, thanks to Tara, she could have quit magic after Warren's death. You know: reality kicking in, breaking down, supported by her friends. Now the message is: don't mess with black magic, or you'll lose your self. Sorry, but we all got that already: after her Rack-session, shower-scene looked a lot like a post-rape scene too to me. It caused Tara and her to break up for a while, etc. I have to admit I get a kick out of women kicking ass, as long as it's justified: slayer-vamps, goodies-badies, Will settling her score with Warren, but that was enough: message intercepted, you don't have to rub our nose in it, in the meantime destroying one of your most interesting, consistent characters. Bloody bastards... Oeh, I just realized I've become a flaming o (flaming (J)o(ke) in my case), does that mean I get to show ME and co some of my fireworks ? :evil Where's a tranquilizer gun, when you need one, huh. /Joke walks in writers' room, whistling innocently... /poof/ Oops... Alrightie, now Joss's off to dreamland, you'd better do exactly as I tell you, or you'll be joining him. /couple of minutes later, writers are busy scribbling/ "Amber ? Why, hello, sweetie, guess what: you're back in business. Pack your bags, coz we need you for the last ep. Yeah, that's right, they are rewriting the last scenes as we speak. Seems like you're going to be in the 7th season after all, alive and well.../

Killin Joke
 


Re: Feminism

Postby EvilAnya » Sun May 19, 2002 11:33 am

One of the implications I pick up from the whole Buffy vs Willow thing is that "feminism is ultimately divisive". Two Women cannot be strong without facing off against eachother. Feminism makes a person alien to themselves and to the world. I've been reading a lot of feminist film criticism that points out how this happens a lot in men's interpretations of feminism. I think that's why this whole face off pisses me off so much.



Not really about the feminism of BtVS so much as their failure with it this season. I just wanted to point out how much Willow going up against Buffy pisses me off. And that promo "Good vs Evil" when it's really not that clear cut and simple. I'm hoping the actual scenes aren't just Good Guy vs Bad Guy and that the promo was just written by some Smackdown writers, but I don't know. I don't have much hope of ME salvaging this wreck they've made of these women. It just makes me think that Joss wanted to bring these women down a notch and that makes me mad. He never used to be scared of strong women.

What are you going to do, B? Kill me- you become me. you're not ready for that...

EvilAnya
 


Re: Feminism

Postby xita » Sun May 19, 2002 11:36 am

The faceoff is perhaps the most annoying thing I have ever seen. Offensive beyond belief. It's like 2 women can't be strong together. It's this jealousy, I get to be the slayer now.. bullshit



what crap



what a shit show.



I want to see this man call himself a feminist again.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow and Tara Love

Truly and Forever

xita
 


Re: Feminism

Postby Killin Joke » Sun May 19, 2002 12:10 pm

Very perceptive... "It hurts... Everything's changed... Everything..." Willow and Buffy have been best friends since highschool, Will was the one to open up to her, the new girl, when others treated her like an outsider. And sure, they had their share of problems, I mean, which friendship hasn't. They grew a bit apart, when they started going to university, but that's normal. It's a whole new life: some people you leave behind and will never see again, others will be with you till the end of your days, either or not with a break (-s) in between. It was a good characterization, but now they make it seem like Willow has been jealous of Buffy all the time, of her strenght, how she stood in the headlights... What a load of crap: if there was something I've never felt Will had, it was that. A lack of self-confidence, okay, but not deep emotions of "Oeh, my time will come, and they will all tremble before me and bow to my powers" It's aggravating, it's been done: remember Buffy-Faith: now that was a stand-off (cfr. Xena-Callisto) -> almost every heroic show has one. Faith's character was fascinating, I could understand where she came from. "This is shit" (Nikki to Helen in Bad Girls) It's again a stereotypical strain of thought, introduced by males in the past. That women are constant in competition with each other. At least it's not over a man this time, but that's the only thing. I've read this thesis "A woman quest", a feminist study of Marion Zimmer Bradley's novel "The Mists of Avalon", and she mentioned a lot of dichotomies: male-female, good-evil, straight-gay, culture-nature,... Anyway, the characters of Morgaine and Guinevere also competed with each other. Men kindle those feelings because it allows them to stay in their powerful position. Women are capable of superb solidarity, and could do some serious damage (literally or figuratively) if they stand tall together. Xena, with Gab, the amazons was a great example, Buffy too in the past. I'm thinking of Jenny (Miss Calendar), who with the help of her women group, Willow, bond together to exorcise this computer demon. We should see more of that on television. This last season has sorta been a set-back. So your best friend is too preachy, moralizes too much. You might not see eye to eye all the time, but that's no reason to blow her into kingdom come. C'mon, you can always talk about it, but that's right: the Dark Force is great in this one... Uch...

Killin Joke
 


Re: Feminism

Postby maudmac » Sun May 19, 2002 12:24 pm

All this reminds me of an article I read (quite a while ago) that took the position that Buffy, the character, is not at all a feminist icon. She is powerful, yes, but she is punished for it.



The Willow/Buffy standoff is as anti-feminist a message as VengeanceWillow's desire and apparent ability to destroy the world. The standoff ultimately says that powerful women are dangerous. It reinforces the notion that we must be controlled, that it is necessary to keep us down. (I agree it also supports the belief that powerful women cannot coexist peacefully.)



I think Joss may be misunderstanding the very essence of feminism. Feminism has never asked that women be more powerful than men, only that our power be equal to that of men.

---------------------------
Sweet is the road just discovered that seems to whisper your name as song.-- Lydia Lunch, Toxic Gumbo

maudmac
 


Re: Feminism

Postby Killin Joke » Sun May 19, 2002 1:57 pm

Well said, maudmac. A friend of mine wrote a dissertation about Xena (Damn, I wish I could have beat her to it... Oeh, wait, jealousy... Good goddesses, I'm bad ! Let me rephrase that: very happy for her, and the whole fandom, for spreading the message ;) ) Anyway, she read a book for it, called "Girl power", and in terms of feminism, Xena didn't came out too good either. "Everyone's a critic." Gonna read it during the holidays, and see if it says something about Buffy. It's back to Eden. Women are the root of all evil. Willow gets represented as Eve, who's powerdriven towards the Tree of Knowledge, the forbidden fruit (forbidden world of magic). Result: catfight. "Can't we all just get along ?"

Killin Joke
 


Re: Feminism

Postby Epicurus » Sun May 19, 2002 5:45 pm

I have little views on Feminism because I'm ignorant to it's cause(s).

Could anyone recommend any books that I could read to get a better understanding of this?


I have no plans to send Tara anywhere. Amber and Alyson have such great chemistry; they're so great together, and they're very romantic together. We have terrible, terrible things to do to them because they're on my show, so needless to say, horrible things will happen--but as a couple, I think they work really well. As for Amber, even if she weren't going out with Willow, I think she's become a big part of the heart of the show. – Joss "Master of Hurtful Lies" Whedon

Edited by: Epicurus at: 5/19/02 4:46:36 pm
Epicurus
 


Re: Feminism

Postby Killin Joke » Sun May 19, 2002 6:05 pm

Hey Epicurus,



I hope I can do some decent research for my amazon thesis during the holidays, but it looks like I'm going to have to deal with reexaminations (gloomy prospects). Anyway, here are two titles I've stumbled across already. The first one probably won't be that useful for my specific topic, but it looked like an excellent book if you want to get a good grasp on feminism and lesbianism. I might just read it out of sheer interest and to receive a bit of a background. The second one will likely come in handy for me, so if you like drama and women kicking ass: could be cool. Or there's always the net. Happy searching ;)



-Feminism meets queer theory

-series editors: Naomi Schor and Elizabeth Weed

-1997 by Brown University and Differences

-A Journal of Feminist Cultural Studies (originally in v.6, summer-fall 1994)

-Library of Congress Cataloging-in-publication Data

-ISBN: 0-253-33278-8 (cloth: alk. Paper)

-ISBN 0-253-21118-2 (pbk.: alk. Paper)

-(HQ1190.F.442 1997

-(305.42’01 –dc21 96-55416)

-Stu.Q.37

-Trefw: feminism/queer

-Nr.19649

-Datum: 2 – 2 – 2000

-(AZ 506103)



- Amazons and warrior women: Varieties of Feminism in Seventeenth-Century Drama

-Simon Shepherd (Lecturer in English drama, University of Nottingham)

-First published in Great Britain in 1981 by The Harvester Press Limited

-Publisher: John Spiers

-16 Ship Street, Brighton, Sussex

-Simon Shepherd, 1981

-British Library Cataloguing in Publication Data

-(301.41’2’0941 HQ1593

-ISBN 0-85527-353-4

-Typeset in 10/11 pt Baskerville by

-Rowland Phototypesetting Limited,

-Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk

-Printed in Great Britain by Redwood Burn Limited, Trowbridge





Killin Joke
 


Re: Feminism

Postby decadence1 » Sun May 19, 2002 10:48 pm

It's cause is equality. Not supremacy (over men). (As is often misunderstood).

"a doctrine or movement that advocates equal rights for women" Collins English dictionary 1999



BTVS references as I remember were in an episode I forget where Willow comments on the patriarchal nature of a childrens show (I'm a mine of vague info. :blush , it's mentioned in the 'Watcher's Guide Volume 1') .

I'm not an expert on feminism (study of); although I did some research when looking at Feminist Film Theory when I was doing Film Studies a year ago.



As a starting point, personally I'd recommed taking a quick look at one of the better websites: feminist.com/

It has a questions and answers section entitled 'Ask Amy'

(she wrote a book, Manifesta: Young Women, Feminism, and the Future).

A part of that website lists suitable books (which you asked about) you may like to check out: www.feminist.com/resource...store/fem/



(All the books listed in the section books that the Feminist.com site recommends highly or has referenced in their Ask Amy section).

I would imagine the titles would be available from libraries too.

Clicking on titles listed takes you to Amazon.com bookstore where you can see user reviews/order them.



Well, hope that helps a little. :)



Women use their intelligence to support their intuition. - GK Chesterton

(from an old Northern Exposure episode ;) )

"Oh, I could just see a British Slayer (bad English Accent) Excuse me mister vampire, could you quite possibly refrain from killing whilst I take my tea break?" ~Buffy in Lisa's Reward and Reprisal << We're not *all* like this in England y'know :lol

Edited by: decadence1 at: 5/19/02 9:52:52 pm
decadence1
 


Re: Feminism

Postby Hair Annoyed » Mon May 20, 2002 4:58 am

I think that it should first be noted that political feminism is very different from cultural feminism. Political feminism is concerned with objective equality: equality under the law, the right to vote, the right to work, etc. Cultural feminism is concerned with subjective equality: equality of value for the contributions of women. Political inequality, of course, comes from cultural inequality, but although we have made great strides politically, we still have a long way culturally.



Media images of women are part of the cultural inequality that we are still fighting. Culturally, I think that the struggle for equal rights is seen as a struggle for equal power, which is in turn mistakenly seen by men as a desire by women to have the same kind of power that men have, i.e. physical strength and the desire/ability to kill. Thus men sympathetic to feminism give us as “feminist” icons Xena and Buffy: ass-kickers endowed with manly power. Women’s real power comes from a much different place: loving, life-giving, nurturing, and I think that those men know this deep down. So Xena and Buffy suffer emotional torture thinking and feeling that it is wrong or unfair for them to be the way they are. We are also show the parallel struggle of their sidekicks Gabrielle and Willow trying to become more powerful like the heroines. Xena helps Gabrielle by teaching her what she knows, and together they achieve a kind of balance. Buffy was born with her powers and can’t help Willow, so she’s left to her own devices. Then with Tara she does become powerful which illustrates another source of feminine power: solidarity. But the loss of Tara makes Willow unbalanced. She goes to a horrible extreme. Willow is not a feminist, she’s a caution. Buffy isn’t a feminist either, she’s a tool. Anya isn’t a feminist, she’s a man-hater. Tara is the true feminist because her power comes from a feminine source, her mother, and she only uses that power to help people. And what happens to her? A misogynistic little prick whips out his gun and shoots her in the back through the heart. That seems to be the real theme for this season, not “oh, grow up.”



I feel I should add this disclaimer: the above description of feminine-vs.-masculine power was a gross generality. There are many women who are strong and aggressive, and many men who are very loving and gentle. And some of these people are straight! Really! I swear it’s true! :;) No, seriously, everyone has an aggressive side and a gentle side. I think that traditional views of masculinity and femininity expressed above are stereotypical, not because they are completely wrong but because they don’t allow for the full expression of the human spirit. Men and women, masculinity and femininity, are a lot more similar then they are different. And THAT is the underlying message of feminism.

Hair Annoyed
 


Re: Feminism

Postby Epicurus » Mon May 20, 2002 10:53 am

Thanks Killin Joke and decadence1 for the info on those books and website links.

I definitely have some reading to do.




I have no plans to send Tara anywhere. Amber and Alyson have such great chemistry; they're so great together, and they're very romantic together. We have terrible, terrible things to do to them because they're on my show, so needless to say, horrible things will happen--but as a couple, I think they work really well. As for Amber, even if she weren't going out with Willow, I think she's become a big part of the heart of the show. – Joss "Master of Hurtful Lies" Whedon

Epicurus
 


Re: Feminism

Postby Killin Joke » Mon May 20, 2002 12:04 pm

You're most welcome, sweetie ;) Feels good to help people, in the spirit of Tara (sorry for the bad choice of words), and give them what they "need"...

Killin Joke
 


Re: Feminism

Postby superZONic » Mon May 20, 2002 7:08 pm

Hair Annoyed:

Liked your post and all told, i think its a pretty fair assessment. Dramatic irony at its suckiest that the embodiment of feminist power on the show was killed by its antithesis and all in the name of entertainment. So far to go. So far, indeed.



superZONic
 


Guardian article

Postby tyche » Tue May 21, 2002 2:30 am

There was this interesting article in my paper yesterday, not about Buffy, but comparing the portrayal of violent women in Euripides' play 'The Bacchai' and controversial French film 'Baise-Moi'. I'm not going to cut and paste the whole thing, as it has explicit descriptions of sex and violence, but the link is below:

www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4416897,00.html

Particularly interesting are the references to religious ecstasy, and towards the end the writer wonders if it's possible for a play, film or TV show to be both misogynist AND feminist. Interesting reading.

You took my joy

I want it back
- Lucinda Williams

Discussion group for spoiled W/T shippers

tyche
 

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