Old words from Joss that are worth another look

[BBOvenGuy]

I'm going back through some stuff, trying to come up with a focused message for my essay, which I'm still revising. I went back to Joss Whedon's May 9 2000 interview on NPR and discovered this:

[quote:5333f4c867][b:5333f4c867][i:5333f4c867]Quote:[/i:5333f4c867][/b:5333f4c867]

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[b:5333f4c867] Q:[/b:5333f4c867] One of the things that you do from time to time in [i:5333f4c867] Buffy[/i:5333f4c867] and in [i:5333f4c867] Angel[/i:5333f4c867] is to establish a very important character, and then ruthlessly and unexpectedly kill them off. And you have said that you like surprises, but with Jenny, for example, in [i:5333f4c867] Buffy[/i:5333f4c867], and with Doyle who was a costar in [i:5333f4c867] Angel[/i:5333f4c867], you just set up these people and then take them from us. [i:5333f4c867] St. Elsewhere[/i:5333f4c867] did that, [i:5333f4c867] Twin Peaks[/i:5333f4c867] did that, not a lot of TV shows do that. Why do you do that, and what reaction do you get from fans when you do do it?

[b:5333f4c867] Joss: [/b:5333f4c867] Well, I do it because I want to keep people afraid. I want to keep people in suspense. I want people to understand that everything is not perfectly safe. The problem with doing a horror show on television is that you know your main characters are coming back week to week, and you don't really care about somebody who just showed up for one episode. So every now and then you have to make the statement, "No, nothing is safe," and that's a very effective way of doing that.

If somebody objects, if somebody says, "How could you have killed that character? You have to bring that character back! You have to bring that character back!" I know I've done the right thing. If they go, "Oh, they're dead," then I killed the wrong person, because nobody cares.

One of the things that people always shy away from is killing a sympathetic character. When I worked on Speed, there was a character who died, a lawyer that Alan Ruck played, and I took out the lawyer. He was a bad man. He was terrible. You know, he was causing trouble and he ended up dying, and I turned him into a likeable, sort of a doofy toursit guy, and they're like, "Well now we can't kill him!" And my opinion was, "Well now you should, because now people will actually care when he dies." But nobody wants to kill a good guy. It makes them twitchy, particularly on a series.

And we were very careful about it, because if there's somebody we know we're going to want for future episodes... but then again, Jenny Calendar worked more episodes, probably, after she died than she did before, because on our show everybody's a ghost, everybody's a whatnot. But it does inflame emotions sometimes, but that is in fact what I'm trying to do.

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[/quote:5333f4c867]

Joss's claim about Jenny Calendar is not correct, by the way. She only appeared twice after being killed off.

What this tells me is that Joss thought of killing Tara as [b:5333f4c867] business as usual[/b:5333f4c867]. Theoretically, in his mind the fact that we're all so upset is a [b:5333f4c867] good[/b:5333f4c867] thing.

On the other hand, I think he might be discovering that it's possible to have too much of a good thing.

Comments, anyone?

[xita]

It's lies though, if he really had balls he would kill an actual regular that's been around for years, not someone who had a target on her the entire time. How about... spike? Yeah, xander!! yeah!

[BBOvenGuy]

Well, yes Xita that's very true. It's all part of the Hollywood illusion game. Maybe Jane Espenson didn't think Tara was introduced to be cannon fodder, but I think Joss most definitely did.

And what I think I'm going to get at in my revised essay is the idea that Joss had a choice - be a visionary a la Gene Roddenberry, or do one of his typical little manipulation games. He had a chance to be great, and instead he chose to be small.

I'm not sure how that will play to the general audience. We'll have to see how I can present it.

[lauriebear]

You know I really don't understand this man's logic.

OK nobody's safe on these shows....anyone could die. Now once you say that AND show it, how do expect the audience to bond with anyof the characters. If you watched a show knowing that at any moment the most liked character can get axed (or shot through the heart), then you become jaded, so any emotion you developed for the other characters is gone too...because hell why would you invest time getting to know them only to see them die...to serve the story. This seems backward to me. "Don't get too attached, because they could be gone"...OK I won't, what else is on?

Just a thought...I wonder what he would say if he knew some of us, well at least myself, are rooting for all the characters to die. All of them were so whiny and caricatures of themselves that I wouldn't mind in Dawn, Buffy, Xander, Anya and Spike died in a horrible fashion next season....Oh yeah and Willow-just to put her out of her misery. Now that's a season I would watch!

[BoredNow99]

[b:29343ea1e6] Bob[/b:29343ea1e6], great idea to look back at some of the old stuff. Y'know, it might have passed us by then, when we were still being told how important the W/T relationship was.

If you want I can look back through some of my old UK magazines for stuff.

'Cos I'm that sad that I keep them all in lovely dinosaur files from Ikea

[Dave V]

I do like your approach, Bob. Personally, I think that Mr. Whedon was so caught up in this "business as usual" paradigm that he was UNABLE to see the possbilities opened up by the Willow/Tara story arc. A true visionary might be the one to actually kill off a core Scooby, not just one of the "cannon fodder." A true visionary might actively pursue new plot threads, once presented with the un-looked-for but palpable chemistry between Amber and Aly.

Alas, Joss may end up as a mere footnote in TV history. This may not be something the Joss-philes want to hear, but hey.

[Arafel the Witch]

<All of them were so whiny and caricatures of themselves that I wouldn't mind in Dawn, Buffy, Xander, Anya and Spike died in a horrible fashion next season>

Oh, I don't know. I actually like Buffy and Spike last season. Buffy's attitude made sense, given that she was in heaven and then yanked out to face death and mayhem every day again, and Spike made sense to, given that Buffy kept flip-flopping on how she felt about him.

On the other hand, I've felt for a while that Xander needs to die a slow painful death because he's such an idiot, and Dawn's never been anything really but a whiner, so I liked it when Willow threatened to turn her back last season.

[Puff]

I am not sure many people would be sad if Xander died really as they did nothing noteworthy with his character for 6 years.

Maybe he can stake Spike? Then I might have a little respect for him

[tommo]

I'm becoming bemused at the creator of a show who takes pleasure in saying "Nobody's safe!". To me, that rally rankles right now.

There's no creativity in killing people off.

Oh, unless it's Xander or Spike. Heh. Sorry sorry...not bashing there. Just you know...talking shite.

[Wiccagrrl313]

Well, like I commented on with regards to the S2 DVD commentary, I think Joss was going for a similar effect as S2. Killing off a Scooby SO, the "two people who love each other the most goin' at it..." But he really, really missed the mark. As he said in the Advocate article, people have a legitimate reason to say "it's not the same"

I think he also got blinded by the power. He talks in the commentary to Innocence that he was shocked at how easily he could write the devastating scene between Angel and Buffy when they see each other for the first time after making love.That he felt like a jerk, it felt ucky, but "powerful". I think he also didn't *really* take into consideration just how different this was to the things he'd done before, how devestating the message was and who that message was going to be most taken to heart by... gay and questioning viewers, especially teens, and homophobes who were thrilled to see the lesbians punished.

[BBOvenGuy]

Tracy, I don't suppose you could transcribe that quote for me, or point out where it is on the net? That sounds like something I could use.

[friskylez]

Arafel, "Spike made sense to, given that Buffy kept flip-flopping on how she felt about him." I have to disagree, nothing about Spike makes sense, he tried to rape her for kittys sake....Cant stand the guy, didnt like Buffys "relationship" with him and i really wish somebody would stake him...

Spike is not "cool", i watched an episode the other nite, the one where he thought he could kill again and instead of having learned anything at all from helping the scoobies, he reverts to his old self and tries to kill a young girl..Yep what a guy...Spike is an egotistical murderer, rapist, who only thinks about what he wants and how he can get it

[Wiccagrrl313]

Joss' commentary on Innocence for the DVD: (Discussing the scene where Buffy and Angel see each other for the first time after making love, and he basically tortures her by making her feel that he doesn't love her)

[i:d7d3a41fd9] "I wrote this scene. I actually felt like an ugly person. I didn't know how I was able to write this so easily. It felt icky that I could make him say these things. It felt icky and kind of powerful. It was very uncomfortable and very exciting for me to do it."[/i:d7d3a41fd9]

Also, in regards to "punishing" Buffy and Angel for having sex:

[i:d7d3a41fd9] "Politics of the thing are always complicated. Y'know, I said I didn't want to kill the girl who has sex, and yet I punish the shit out of her. That brings up a lot of issues, um... with me, I don't like the idea of a reactionary message that everything you do must be punished. I believe that Buffy and Angel were in love and that what they did wasn't "bad". At the same time, I don't want to be saying 'All teenagers must boff. You must boff now, boff each other. Do it". It's complicated. I don't really want to be telling them one thing or another. But inevitably in a horror show, you end up punishing people for everything that they do, just so that you can find the horror, the real emotional horror of everything they go through. Buffy drinks beer, not gonna go well for her. Buffy has sex with her boyfriend, not gonna go well for her. [b:d7d3a41fd9] The important thing is to make the punishment *emotional* and not have her be ax-murdered... and also let her grow from it, let her be stronger, let it resonnate on a normal emotional level instead of on some evil higher power that must put an ax into their heads just because they dared to have sex.[/b:d7d3a41fd9]" [/i:d7d3a41fd9]

[Kalita]

Ruth: Oh, we don't mind if you talk shite. Speak your mind!

I think Joss' problem was that he invented Tara to be cannon fodder right from the beginning (among other purposes, certainly); even after Tara blossomed so well under Amber's portrayal, even after the chemistry with Willow became so great, even after he became so personally enamoured of Amber (those statements of his I DO believe), he chose to continue with Plan A.

And that inflexibility has cost him everything, in my book.

[melissande]

Oh Wiccagrrrl313,

Those quotes you pulled are really telling. I was watching the finale with a friend last weekend (now that I've been educated by the FAQ, I've spent a bit of time sharing your insights with Buffy-watching friends), and he commented, "You know, that's why I've never really gotten into this show in general --it seems like so often when a character has sex, there's punishment. The attitude is sex, ewww." And damn, it gave me some serious pause. It's true: in the Buffyverse, sex puts you at severe risk for an ass-kicking. As brilliant Angel's evilness was as an evocation of the way a man can turn on a dime once you've "given it up," (oh hideous phrase, reeking of defeat), subsequent Buffy sexcapades have taught us there's only one kind of sex that's safe: the kind you have esconced with a vanilla military-speak-spouting testosterone-laden normalboy. Pardon me, Riley fans, but that pushes my ewww buttons, especially when the lesson endeth with: and honey, best not beat him at arm-wrestling! If you're too independent, he may run off to the jungle and take up with a Peace Corps babe who only learns to kick ass because she's been schooled to by her man!

And what's with the Scoobies reacting with vomit-noises every time sex -- a normal part of a loving, committed relationship -- is brought up at all? The accepted reaction to Anya's charming little Xander-lust comments was Giles -- who should be nobody's prude -- wiping his brow and sighing like a Victorian maiden with the vapors. It was funny, true, but is that really the only reaction to evidence that two consenting adults are getting it on? Evidence of any character's sexuality always invites an ewww-comment. One of the more moving things about "Seeing Red" was Dawn's genuine happiness at seeing Willow and Tara in post-love mode. It's a Buffy rarity.

And I know for several of you there's no love lost for Spike, but dammit, in Six there was love emerging from an evil dead heart, and I am all about the redeeming power of love. And I respect how well at least some of the writers understand the intimate ways people abuse each other when they resist the impulse to love, and make things of one another instead. This storyline meant a lot to me, even if it didn't to you. So to see ME reduce the reemerging poet to a rapist -- well, fucking hell, that put a stone in my stomach that I still thoroughly resent.

Between the anti-sex, Wicca as crack, and the killing of lesbians, I'm starting to wonder if fundie types will continue to forbid their kiddies from watching BtVS. All the lessons about the wages of sin are certainly ringing through loud and clear. I don't think I can say it too many times. Ewww, my friends. Ewwwwwwww.

(Edited to clean up grammar, if not obscenities, because though not uptight about obscenity, I'm severely goat-gotten by bad editing.)

[BBOvenGuy]

Thanks Tracy! That will do quite nicely, thank you...

[The Next Tara Maclay]

Sadly, all Joss does is lie. Every other word tha tcomes out of his mouth is a lie.

[Lonewolf22]

Hear hear The Next Tara Maclay, every word that comes out of that BASTARDS mouth is a straight up lie, I mean this the guy who said that he had no plans to send Tara anywhere and that he loved her. Well if this is his version of love he can keep it along with the travesty that was this season. What a joke.

Lonewolf

[relativegirl]

This part of [b:cd3639b4f8] Tracy's[/b:cd3639b4f8] interesting, but very disturbing Joss quote: [quote:cd3639b4f8][b:cd3639b4f8][i:cd3639b4f8]Quote:[/i:cd3639b4f8][/b:cd3639b4f8]

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(Discussing the scene where Buffy and Angel see each other for the first time after making love, and he basically tortures her by making her feel that he doesn't love her). "I wrote this scene. I actually felt like an ugly person. I didn't know how I was able to write this so easily. It felt icky that I could make him say these things. It felt icky and kind of powerful. It was very uncomfortable and very exciting for me to do it."

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[/quote:cd3639b4f8] immediately reminded me of part of a New York Times article I read today about the medical doctor in Hyde who murdered 215 of his patients: [quote:cd3639b4f8][b:cd3639b4f8][i:cd3639b4f8]Quote:[/i:cd3639b4f8][/b:cd3639b4f8]

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Judith Page, a patient of his who worked as a household helper, told investigators that Dr. Shipman once asked her if she had had the experience of finding a client dead. When she said "yes," he asked if it did not give her a "buzz."

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[/quote:cd3639b4f8]

To paraphrase my beloved Willow, Joss just couldn't get any more disturbing.

(btw Tracy, thanks for typing that up)

And [b:cd3639b4f8] melissande[/b:cd3639b4f8] I almost completely agree with you and your friend: [quote:cd3639b4f8][b:cd3639b4f8][i:cd3639b4f8]Quote:[/i:cd3639b4f8][/b:cd3639b4f8]

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"You know, that's why I've never really gotten into this show in general --it seems like so often when a character has sex, there's punishment. The attitude is sex, ewww." And damn, it gave me some serious pause. It's true: in the Buffyverse, sex puts you at severe risk for an ass-kicking.

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[/quote:cd3639b4f8]
The great exception is Xander. Perhaps I'm overlooking something b/c to be honest I've never paid as much attention to Xander's storylines as, oh say, Willow and Tara and Buffy and Faith and Dru and Spike and, well anyone short of Riley and the cafeteria cook, but I don't remember Xander ever being punished for having sex.

I don't remember him suffering after losing his virginity like Buffy did. I don't remember him ever suffering anything more than feigned embarrassment over his incessant and boisterous sex life with Anya. By contrast, when Buffy and Riley had their non-stop shag-a-thon it nearly destroyed the Scoobie Gang and everyone else in Lowell House.

And I don't remember Xander or Anya ever taking one in the heart right after sex. Nope, I don't remember that one at all.

So Xander, the only male Scoobie, gets to have sex without consequence. He gets to have a lover who frequently articulates just how much she enjoys and wants to have sex with him and rather than simply revelling in Anya's desire for him Xander repeatedly belittles her for her inappropriate comments. And then goes off camera and nails her.

My point is not that the men in the Buffyverse necessarily get to have sex without any negative consequences. The consequences for Angel are, well, let's be honest, they're doosies. And Spike definitely took it on the chin this season, even with the incessant Spuffy boinking. And Giles' sex life is, well, rather pitiful and tragic. But Xander skates through without a scratch.

Because Xander is Joss. The "buffyverse" is really the JossVerse where Joss gets to design his magnum opus in which everyone but his alter ego suffers for having sex. The men suffer, the women [i:cd3639b4f8] really[/i:cd3639b4f8] suffer, and the lesbians pay for it with their lives or their sanity.

I'm ashamed that I ever became a fan of this show and I'm ashamed that I ever tried to convince anyone to watch it, especially if they were women, most especially if they were lesbians. Shame on me.

[tommo]

Just as a really unrelated thing...I used to work in Hyde. And um, it's kind of close to home. Someone we knew was one of Shipman's "patients".

I see your point, Enid. What makes one person evil and another person a genius?

Okay, I'm a little bit disturbed now.

[feena191]

[quote:e7280c403a][b:e7280c403a][i:e7280c403a]Quote:[/i:e7280c403a][/b:e7280c403a]

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The great exception is Xander. Perhaps I'm overlooking something b/c to be honest I've never paid as much attention to Xander's storylines as, oh say, Willow and Tara and Buffy and Faith and Dru and Spike and, well anyone short of Riley and the cafeteria cook, but I don't remember Xander ever being punished for having sex.

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[/quote:e7280c403a]

The only time Xander was ever 'punished' in a sex context was in S1 [b:e7280c403a] Teacher's Pet[/b:e7280c403a] when the fact that he was still a virgin meant that a huge (umm..[i:e7280c403a] shapeshifting - how original![/i:e7280c403a]) Teacher/Praying Mantis wanted to mate with him then bite his head off. (I used to like Xander, specially S1, but can I hear a Whooo & a Hooo for that??)

So it's interesting that if Xander [b:e7280c403a] had[/b:e7280c403a] had sex previously he would have been safe!!!

Feena
-x-

[supermus]

There was also that time in Consequences when Faith tried to kill him while they were having sex.

[tommo]

Ah yes...Faith. Now don't get me wrong, I love the girl, fucked up and confused as she is. But there's yet [b:05477da9c7] another[/b:05477da9c7] character who's hardly being punished. She's in prison, atoning for her sins. See me cry. She's still alive, isn't she?

[feena191]

That's true, I'd forgotten about that

But if you're gonna be punished after you've had sex anyway, then probably killed by Faith is better than having your head bitten off by a giant Praying Mantis

Does anyone else get the feeling that [i:309c5784ec] someone[/i:309c5784ec] has real issues with sex??

[Ben Varkentine]

Oh, come on. *Everyone* has real issues with sex!

[Epicurus]

The thing with Joss is that he runs out of ways to earn our emotion so he ends up beating us over the head in order to get our tears.

He went out of his way to make Tara the most likable character on Buffy. It makes me wonder what direction Joss would have taken her or what kind of character she would have become if her death hadn't been scheduled for 2 years. She could of had more flaws, she could have made some mistakes... she could have become a fully developed character like everyone else.

[tommo]

Well yes, she was well on the way to developing into a fully rounded character. Another season and who knows what Tara might have become. Think of how far she came in the two and a half seasons we saw her through. And that's where Joss has shot himself in the foot, because you know, interesting. And now it's just...well, it's crap.

[Epicurus]

When I say she could have become a fully developed character I meant past tense.
Don''t get me wrong, I LOVE the Tara I've seen over the past 2 years I would never want that to change. Say Joss hadn't decided so long ago to kill her... would Tara have travelled in the same path she took in season six? Would Tara have made the same decisions?
What I mean is, her death had to always be in the back of Joss' mind when he was thinking of Tara and/or Willow/Tara scenes. I wonder how much more we could have gotten to know Tara if she was given half a chance.
She was twisted and molded and not allowed to blossom and grow as she should have.

[tommo]

Well he strung it out for as long as he could, heaping sweetness on sweetness, making us all think that Willow had finally found her soulmate. Hell, he even made [b:1969b348cd] Willow[/b:1969b348cd] think she'd found her soulmate. Makes the final cut sting just that bit more, doesn't it?

He set her up to deliberately tear her down. And that's what I think I'm most annoyed about; Tara was used as a plot device. It's just bad writing; sorry, but it is.

[willow vixen]

i say watch karma works it's thing. if Joss is really shooting to get emotions out of people...wait til the network ax his hard working shows...*then* he can really feel what "emotions" are all about.

*snickers*