The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe - Willow & Tara Forever

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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:56 pm 
It's taken me a long time to decide to post to this thread, mostly because I had to try to find a way to best explain my thoughts on the matter.

Fanfiction, for me, has always been a way for budding writers to learn and grow without a really harsh environment. Fanfic writers get either positive, negative or neutral feedback which they can either incorporate into their learning experience or discard altogether. That being said, there are times that I feel many writers have strayed too far from the characterizations of Willow and Tara, even in alternative universe fics. I find myself reading an AU where Tara is excessively aggressive and getting puzzled at the characterization. This is mostly because I feel that, even in AU fics, canon can still be upheld.

I have to agree with DMW in that the quality of fanfic editing has taken a turn for the worse and I feel that the writers are the ones that will pay the ultimate price. How can one learn if their editors won't help them? Or even worse, the editors themselves aren't very good at editing but are very good at cheerleading. There is always a level of support that any good editor must give but that doesn't mean one must sacrifice the important elements (i.e. grammar, spelling, characterization, flow of story, etc.) in the process.

As a writer, I try to improve my work. However, I find it difficult to take certain kinds of criticism (i.e. the kind that requires me to actually change the essence or personality with which I tend to infuse my work). My problem is, I have never been able to follow the "rules" of writing fanfiction. I write what flows out of my head and onto looseleaf page or computer screen. I have not and can not function any other way.

Back to the topic at hand. As others have said, fanfiction opens up a whole new world of "what-ifs", that realm that contains both possibility and choice, that many writers have done so well. Writing it allows EVERYONE to become involved in the storytelling, to have one's audience have an increasingly vested interest in the story as well as the characters. I really do wish that BTVS had even remotely read some of the truly excellent fanfic that's out there....they have missed out on that wonderful world that could've been opened up to detractors of the W/T relationship and made it a more positive experience for them. For example, I wanted to explore Willow's Jewish heritage because a) that's something that has only had a passing reference in the show and b) I had not as yet come across a fanfic that had attempted to do so. It was a challenge and quite fun. Plus, I learned more just doing the research that in the actual writing. That, IMHO, is what fanfiction is all about; what you learn in the process of reading or writing, not just mere entertainment.

Ok, done rambling now that I've managed to confuse even myself. Quite an excellent thread, DMW...it's interesting to see how varied others' views and opinions about canon and fanfiction are.

Cheers!
Toni


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:16 am 
[b:d5dfb12264]Garner[/b:d5dfb12264], what you say about season 6 is interesting because I think that's the turning point where the show lost its connection with canon, inspiring a large number of people to write fan fiction to fix these things. This change not only pulled in a lot of people who wouldn't have written fanfic otherwise, but also inspired existing fanfic writers to write better stories. While I've been reading BtVS fanfic since season one, all of the highest quality stories I know of were written after season 6 started to go awry.

Does anyone share my opinion? If you don't, what stories do you think I'm missing out on?

[b:d5dfb12264]Kieli[/b:d5dfb12264], what are "the rules of fanfiction" you mention? Are they something I should know about? (-; More seriously, does this connect in with [b:d5dfb12264]Garner[/b:d5dfb12264]'s feeling that no fanfic has superseded canon for him. Is it because very few fanfics, especially here, follow the format of a Buffy season or episode? Sometimes the way a story is told influences whether I accept it as canon, as for instance [b:d5dfb12264]Garner[/b:d5dfb12264]'s, Those That Feed, which captures H.P. Lovecraft's style and voice wonderfully, but which as a result doesn't feel like canonical Buffy.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:47 am 
DMW: The so-called "rules of fanfiction" are not my creation, to be sure. I'm referring to some of the "rules" that I've found on other websites that tell one just how BTVS fanfiction should be written. I've never really believed in having rules to writing fanfiction other than just remaining true to the characterization, whether it be AU or otherwise) and the guidelines for writing (i.e. for grammar, spelling, plot development, etc). Like I said, I have usually just wrote what came to mind and what I felt in my heart. Guess that might make me a "newbie" or even "untrained" but it's always worked for me.
[quote:60307c5cd0]Quote:
More seriously, does this connect in with Garner's feeling that no fanfic has superseded canon for him.
[/quote:60307c5cd0]
This is quite possible for those that prefer their fanfiction to strictly adhere to what they see on TV. Which always leads me to beg the question: what really are the deciding factors in what is considered (for all intents and purposes) "canonical fanfiction"? Who makes the decision on how fanfics should be formatted in that regard? I've yet to really find an answer I could accept. I do agree with you though, that for me as well, the answer may simply lie in the storytelling itself and not necessarily within any accepted structure or "rules".

[quote:60307c5cd0]Quote:
While I've been reading BtVS fanfic since season one, all of the highest quality stories I know of were written after season 6 started to go awry.

Does anyone share my opinion? If you don't, what stories do you think I'm missing out on?
[/quote:60307c5cd0]

I very much agree with this statement, even though I have read some really extraordinary pre-Season 6 fanfiction. The quality of imagination, thought, and heart put into Season 6 and post-Season 6 fanfiction has definitely been "kicked up a notch" (please pardon the swiping of Emeril's favourite phrase)


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:39 pm 
DMW, interesting observation. Has the fic since season sux been better? You know I think it might have. I didn't start reading fanfic until the gap between season 5 and 6, when I got into W/T. I read some decent stuff then, tried to download as much of Wiccan Ways and ExtraFlameys' archives as I could. I even read most of it. However, it does seem like as season sux really began, well, sucking, that the fics did get more elaborate, imaginative, and perhaps better written. Now some of that might have been the practice. The third or fourth fic might have been better than an author's first or second. Maybe more people were just outraged with what happened and wanted to fix it. They may have seen the gross character assissination and wanted to get this right and so worked hard at maintaining the ture characters, which the show obviously didn't. I will definitely agree that there seemed to be so much fic since the start of season sux that it was impossible to keep up on it all. Unfortunately I would also say that with SR, and definitely by the middle of season severed, that the number of fics seems to have fallen off. I personally found it hard and disheartening to write stuff after SR (Those That Feed was started pre SR and took forever to finish). The reason for this was that I felt more anger over what happened than the usual inspiration that I used to feel regarding W/T stuff. It makes writing harder.

As for the canonical fanfic thing. First off I think style and format is irrelevent. Any style or format could be good or not. Hell, Josswad proved that with OMWF. A non-BtVS format overall that still worked. Obviously AUs are not going to be canonical, but anything that could have happened, and maintains the show's characterization could be canonical. However, at the very base, I don't consider ANY fanfic to EVER be canonical. Canon, should by definition, be what we see on the show, period, end of sentence. Even the many novelizations aren't canon. I know that for the Star Wars universe George Lucas tightly controls what the overall plots are for the novels, or at least he did, and that these were considered canon as they had his seal of approval. I suppose if Josswad did that for the various novels they might be as well. But fanfic, to me, will always be speculation of what could have happened, but didn't. The more it feels like it could have happened, the more close to canon it is, but it will never be that. And to an extent the great thing about fanfic is that it does go beyond canon and gives us possible insights into the characters as viewed by someone other than the official writers. But as each eyewitness has a different view of any event, so too will each ff author have a different view of the characters. As long as they don't get too far astray, I find that pretty darn cool.

Garner


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:29 pm 
[quote:ebf92bac1a]Quote:
Canon, should by definition, be what we see on the show, period, end of sentence.
[/quote:ebf92bac1a]
I disagree with that to some extent since the definition of canon in my dictionary states: "..the works of an author accepted as authentic..." and canonical as "pertaining to or conforming to a canon; authorized or accepted." Wouldn't that be up to the author to decide what is canonical (in the strictest sense of the word) and what is not? In that case, isn't your quote merely a statement of mostly personal opinion as to what you will accept as "canon" for fanfiction? Your next quote illustrates my point:
[quote:ebf92bac1a]Quote:
I know that for the Star Wars universe George Lucas tightly controls what the overall plots are for the novels, or at least he did, and that these were considered canon as they had his seal of approval.
[/quote:ebf92bac1a]
This is because the author (by this I mean the original creators i.e. George Lucas, Joss Whedon, etc.) made the conscious decision as to what would be "canon" and what would not be considered as such. However, if one were to go with the other sundry definitions of canon (general law, rule, principle, or criterion; all the writings or other works known to be by a particular person; an accepted body of works by an author, or more generally to those works which are considered in some way superior, central, or most worthy of study in a culture...etc.), one could make a case that fanfiction may not be considered "canonical works" strictly adhering to BTVS. But IMHO, that depends on several factors. Since Joss himself has apparently taken canon and thrown it to the winds on many occasions, I think we may be using the word very very loosely when dealing with the show. What we the fans consider to be canon obviously is not a view shared by the actual writers and creator of the show. So DMW's questions about "Canon vs. Fandom" do present quite a dilemma.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 6:51 pm 
[quote:9c3f96e62b]Quote:
What we the fans consider to be canon obviously is not a view shared by the actual writers and creator of the show.
[/quote:9c3f96e62b] Kieli: I think this is generally true. However, when canon diverges so greatly from what the fans consider it to be, the show or movies can lose those fans. I think this has happened on Star Wars as well as Buffy. Lucas built up a universe in the first 3 movies and the changes made to canon in the Phantom and Clones turned off some fans: mitochlorians<sp>? Jar Jar etc. Star Wars is still going strong financially but it's crown as genre king was taken by LOTR IMHO. As a creator, you can take your characters in a radical direction but you also have to try to take most of your fans with you especially if you are doing a popular media like TV or big budget movies. You have to convince most of your fans that what you have done proceeds from what went on before so many don't think it's OOC or retcon. The Willow magic thing is the worst bit of writing and plotting I have ever seen which made what happened to Tara make no sense IMHO. ME simply didn't bring me along with them on that story at all. [quote:9c3f96e62b]Quote:
Garner, what you say about season 6 is interesting because I think that's the turning point where the show lost its connection with canon, inspiring a large number of people to write fan fiction to fix these things.
[/quote:9c3f96e62b] DMW: Thanks for the great thread. I notice since the end of the show alot of fanfic (by many good authors) is now being written about the last season to try and fix things. Having not seen the last season, I'm lost in the current series canon so I haven't been able to read any of them. I was able to follow along for the fics that tried to fix what happened to Tara in season 6 but as I didn't like the whole Willow arc that season, I find I can't get into plots proceeding with the Willow addiction arc as a base. Like I did for Star Wars, I reject alot of the new canon and even extremely well written stories can't get me to continue journeying on that path. I've found I prefer to go back to the season 4 and 5 setting and forget about what happened season 6 completely. In fact season 6 and beyond seem like another show to me with different characters that I'm not interested in watching or reading about.

Like Garner I used to prefer fic that proceeded from canon but now that I have rejected current canon completely, I have done a 180 degree turnaround and now find my self preferring completely AU fic like Nika's "Red Ace" or fill in the blanks stuff from season 4 and 5 like Triscuits "Edge of Silence" and Spikeme4now's "Behind the Scenes" series.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 6:16 am 
[quote:cf046cc697]Quote:
But fanfic, to me, will always be speculation of what could have happened, but didn't. The more it feels like it could have happened, the more close to canon it is, but it will never be that. And to an extent the great thing about fanfic is that it does go beyond canon and gives us possible insights into the characters as viewed by someone other than the official writers. But as each eyewitness has a different view of any event, so too will each ff author have a different view of the characters. As long as they don't get too far astray, I find that pretty darn cool.
[/quote:cf046cc697]

Garner, that's a really interesting point you make there. I know for myself, that in reading fic that feels like it could have taken place within the canon, then I guess it's more canon than not. But the notion about different views of any event is what I'd like to address, with reference to a discussion about Tara's character in lipkandy's fic thread. The main point of contention there appeared to be that nobody can offer anything realistic about a character because they don't know them well enough. In my experience of reading fanfic, I've come across some writers who not only appear to know the characters as well as the people who conceived them in the first place, but they also take the characters so far beyond that conception and progression that we saw on the show.

It's true, with the dearth of decent characterisation and storylines on the show itself, I think the level of fanfic upped itself a notch, certainly in terms of providing something that was an alternative, that offered the same quality and interaction we'd come to expect on the show itself. You say that after Season 5 you began reading fanfic; well, after Season 5 I think that a lot of fic writers began getting into their stride in terms of comfort levels. Before then, and certainly since the beginning of this board, fic writers had perhaps one, maybe two seasons to try their hand at fanfiction. By the time Season 6 started, there was already a small group of solid, reliable writers who were settling into their skills in working with the Buffyverse and also, with canon as they saw it. I think that progression of skill that could only be attained by actually writing the fic, combined with the decline in quality of the show itself, probably brought forth the sort of fics you talk about. In a way, I suppose I could suggest that the nature of the show itself inspired fanfic writers to do better. And a lot of them did.

[quote:cf046cc697]Quote:
Since Joss himself has apparently taken canon and thrown it to the winds on many occasions, I think we may be using the word very very loosely when dealing with the show. What we the fans consider to be canon obviously is not a view shared by the actual writers and creator of the show. So DMW's questions about "Canon vs. Fandom" do present quite a dilemma.
[/quote:cf046cc697]

Toni, you raise some really fascinating ideas here, especially about what passes for canon and what doesn't. See, I've always taken what I saw on the show as canon, but when the creator of that show chooses to move away from that accepted idea itself anyway, then I suppose the idea of "canon" ceases to exert itself in any way that constrains or restricts a writer.

And that also brings me back to Garner's point about personal viewpoints. You say that "we the fans" don't share a view with the writers and creator of the show. But then, I also suggest that amongst the fans, there are a hundred and one different ways of viewing what we accept as canon anyway. Can we agree on what is canon? Can we have a point from which to base our creative approaches to the characters on the show? I'm starting to think that perhaps we can't, because canon is different for every single fic writer, and no less, reader.

I love what you say though, about the writer's view of what canon is. I wonder if I can ask you what your view of canon is when it comes to the characters you write, just out of interest. Because honestly, this is something I've never really considered in any great detail before this fabulous discussion. :)


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:19 am 
so I'm late to the party as usual, but this is a fascinating discussion that effects all of us writers so...

first off, I love the discussions about canon. the assertion that the ME writers themselves strayed from canon and broke that wall down in S6 is really interesting because (obviously) that HUGE disparity between the characters I had known and loved and what I was seeing on screen inspired my own fic.

but I also think there is a problem with being a 'fundamentalist' as far as canon. in other words, the idea that there is only truth in the things we actually see and hear on the show (I'm stepping into it aren't I?) :)

if we adhered strictly to 'canon' (which I'm defining as only that which is spoken or shown on the show) regarding Tara there would be hardly any information to write with. we know so little about Tara really. We know her mother died, her family told her she was a demon and came to get her when she turned 20. we know she has her grandmother's doll's eye crystal and she's been practicing magic since she was a child. oh, and she's a lesbian. :) that's really about it. everything else we think we know about Tara comes from Amber Benson's performance and all that it implied (abuse, social awkwardness, loneliness, etc.) and our own projections (which are as numerous and various as the number of viewers). to some people Tara will always be a weak, useless side character, a prop devised by Joss to trigger DMW and a lot of 'canon' supports this view (let me state emphatically that I do not share this view).

I think one of the reasons I posted my fic here (and read so much of other's) is that here on Pens there's a new canon emerging based on a kind of shared consensus about those Amber Benson subtleties and the subtext the writers intentionally (or not) included in the show that will always be open to interpretation. The Tara here is consistently strong and intelligent, resourceful and kind (with a few exceptions)-- and that's the Tara I saw when I watched the show. that's my 'canon' and I'm sticking to it :) and every great story on Pens reinforces that interpretation of canon and makes it more real.

-melissa


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:49 am 
Sam:
[quote:87dc22abcc]Quote:
think this is generally true. However, when canon diverges so greatly from what the fans consider it to be, the show or movies can lose those fans.
[/quote:87dc22abcc]
Agreed to some extent. If the author wanted to change canon for their work, one would think it would behoove them to make logical progressions for that change instead of the random, all-over-the-map variations that ME wound up doing. While I respect the original author's right to change their mind about their creation, they really have to consider whether or not said changes will help them keep their fanbase, as you've stated. Subtlety, apparently, is lacking in the rich and famous writers when it comes to foraying into unknown territory for the sake of breathing new life into their creations.
[quote:87dc22abcc]Quote:
The Willow magic thing is the worst bit of writing and plotting I have ever seen which made what happened to Tara make no sense IMHO. ME simply didn't bring me along with them on that story at all.
[/quote:87dc22abcc]
AMEN! A perfect example of lack of subtlety and complete disregard for an accepted trend that ME helped to set. As many excellent works of fanfiction can attest to, there were MANY ways they could've moved their characters into unknown territory without the sweeping, illogical changes that wound up happening. One can give their audiences a little brain candy without erasing the slate and going off-base completely.

Ruth:
[quote:87dc22abcc]Quote:
See, I've always taken what I saw on the show as canon, but when the creator of that show chooses to move away from that accepted idea itself anyway, then I suppose the idea of "canon" ceases to exert itself in any way that constrains or restricts a writer.
[/quote:87dc22abcc]
Exactly! Once the original author has changed the canon of their work at that point, the word itself really ceases to have any hard and fast credibility. It now is a device left up to the opinions of fans in regards to writing their own versions of the events in a particular part of the author's present or past canonical works. There is no longer any way one can strictly adhere to a canon that has become so fluid.
[quote:87dc22abcc]Quote:
You say that "we the fans" don't share a view with the writers and creator of the show. But then, I also suggest that amongst the fans, there are a hundred and one different ways of viewing what we accept as canon anyway. Can we agree on what is canon? Can we have a point from which to base our creative approaches to the characters on the show? I'm starting to think that perhaps we can't, because canon is different for every single fic writer, and no less, reader.
[/quote:87dc22abcc]
That's my fault for not being more clear. What I meant to infer in saying "we the fans" is more on the lines of "we the individual fans with our own viewpoints about BTVS canon". And I quite agree with your assessment thereafter.
[quote:87dc22abcc]Quote:
I wonder if I can ask you what your view of canon is when it comes to the characters you write, just out of interest.
[/quote:87dc22abcc]
Interesting, if not complex, question to answer. For me, BTVS canon is all about characterizations. For example, fics that have Faith raping Tara or Tara being unnecessarily aggressive, IMHO stray so far from my personal view of "canon" as to be painful. Even with what we do or do not know about Tara, I feel pretty safe in assuming that from what we have seen thus far, Tara would never be that way or act in that manner, even in an AU situation. My view of canon tends to be a little....ahem...well repressed to be honest. I tend not to really focus on the BTVS characters' sexual proclivities but more upon how they interact with each other. That interaction, for me, is more canon than the situations in which they are thrown in the show. The bond between the characters, even some of the unspoken history, draws me to investigate some of the "what might have beens" on a deeper level than ME ever did. I've never really written early BTVS fics because I disliked the lack of maturity in some of the characters (from Season One up to Season Three). And for me, maturity was a very important factor when it came to characterization. I preferred to deal with Season 4 through Season 6 (only the Tara-included parts) because those versions of BTVS canon had the most potential for development, IMHO. They were ripe for storytelling.

All that being said, I'm not entirely sure I answered your question properly :blush . See this is the reason why you are the expert and I am just someone writing words down on a page. :lol

Toni


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 8:56 am 
[quote:25045ef8f5]Quote:
. My view of canon tends to be a little....ahem...well repressed to be honest. I tend not to really focus on the BTVS characters' sexual proclivities but more upon how they interact with each other. That interaction, for me, is more canon than the situations in which they are thrown in the show. The bond between the characters, even some of the unspoken history, draws me to investigate some of the "what might have beens" on a deeper level than ME ever did.
[/quote:25045ef8f5]

Ah, toni, that's because you like to read as opposed to flip through stories for the specific Willow/Tara scenes, or just read the smut. I can honestly read any fic that's well written, and well crafted. If the characters ring true for me, then I'm with the writer all the way. I think what you're saying here, if I understand it correctly, is that canon belongs in the heart of the characters, and if that works, then the plot and storyline is incidental. I like that theory. :)

However, I will say one positive effect this thread is having on me. From reading people's contributions and ideas and also the fics that they reference, I have a whole new reading list on Pens to try out now. :)


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:33 am 
[b:8379ca0223]Multiple Versions of Canon[/b:8379ca0223]

One of the complexities of canon in serial television is that the show is written by a number of different writers who change from season to season, meaning that there are a number of canonical pictures of each character. (Babylon 5 is a notable exception to that and it shows in the higher degree of consistency and cohesiveness of story and characters.) What are the differences between Joss Whedon's Willow and Marti's or any one of a number of writers who have written episodes that show her character? Is Marti's version in [b:8379ca0223]Villains[/b:8379ca0223] as canonical as Joss's in [b:8379ca0223]Dopplegangland[/b:8379ca0223], and if it isn't, why can't a fan fiction writer's version be more canonical than Marti's?

[b:8379ca0223]Multiple Versions of Fandom[/b:8379ca0223]

Just as the canonical writers differ, so do the fandom writers. I found what [b:8379ca0223]lipkandy[/b:8379ca0223] said about an interpretation of Tara's character emerging on Pens insightful as I see that too, particularly in contrast to the recent backlash of Spike's fandom against comments made by James Marsters. To my shock, I discovered that these fans saw Spike as a suffering, abused character with whom we should sympathize, and Buffy as his sadistic abuser. That's a radical interpretation of the text, but it illustrates how groups of fans construct intensely different interpretations of what is canon and what's not.

[b:8379ca0223]lipkandy[/b:8379ca0223] wrote:[quote:8379ca0223]
Everything else we think we know about Tara comes from Amber Benson's performance and all that it implied (abuse, social awkwardness, loneliness, etc.) and our own projections (which are as numerous and various as the number of viewers). to some people Tara will always be a weak, useless side character, a prop devised by Joss to trigger DMW and a lot of 'canon' supports this view (let me state emphatically that I do not share this view).
[/quote:8379ca0223]I think this is one of the largest reasons for differing views of canon--so much of what we know about the characters is from nonverbal cues, which are inherently ambiguous. They also take more effort to notice. Someone who's not focused on Tara because they don't think she's cool won't notice all the lovely nuances of detail in Amber's facial expressions, how she holds her body, etc., so of course they have a different viewpoint because they haven't paid the same kind of attention that we have. Those of us who have paid close attention still differ in the details of our interpretations.[quote:8379ca0223]
The Tara here is consistently strong and intelligent, resourceful and kind ... and that's the Tara I saw when I watched the show. that's my 'canon' and I'm sticking to it and every great story on Pens reinforces that interpretation of canon and makes it more real.
[/quote:8379ca0223]I completely agree; this is a good summary of my views on the canon of Tara.

[b:8379ca0223]Canon over Time[/b:8379ca0223]

Kieli wrote:[quote:8379ca0223]
I've never really written early BTVS fics because I disliked the lack of maturity in some of the characters (from Season One up to Season Three). And for me, maturity was a very important factor when it came to characterization. I preferred to deal with Season 4 through Season 6 (only the Tara-included parts) because those versions of BTVS canon had the most potential for development, IMHO. They were ripe for storytelling.
[/quote:8379ca0223]I like the series during the high school years, but I don't want to write about characters that age either. Time is another important factor in what's canon or not, and not just in what episodes are canon for a story or not, but how there are new canon writers and old canon writers with new interpretations of the characters.

[b:8379ca0223]Unconscious Perceptions of Fandom as Canon[/b:8379ca0223]

While reading the "My Girl" thread on the Witches&Vixens forum, someone suggested that Tara was better with verbal skills while Willow was better at mathematical ones. I immediately agreed internally as I thought about how I'd seen Willow helping Tara with her math and how sweet she was about it ... except I didn't. That was in at least two fanfictions whose names I can't recall at the moment. Then I thought about how Willow mentioned that Tara had a higher verbal SAT score ... except she didn't. That was in Antigone's On Second Thought. This is what I mean by fandom superseding canon: when something like those scenes are triggered in your mind and you have to think to decide whether they were from fanfiction or television. The presence of this idea in several fan fictions and at least a couple of readers also demonstrates how much we pick up from the show about Tara's character that is never said explicitly.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:13 am 
[quote:9510bdb75c]Quote:
To my shock, I discovered that these fans saw Spike as a suffering, abused character with whom we should sympathize, and Buffy as his sadistic abuser. That's a radical interpretation of the text, but it illustrates how groups of fans construct intensely different interpretations of what is canon and what's not.
[/quote:9510bdb75c]
:shock And to my shock as well. Talk about radical interpretation...I wonder if these people have possibly been watching an entirely different show. One would REALLY have to be making some gigantic leaps in the opposite direction of logic and observation to get those interpretations.
[quote:9510bdb75c]Quote:
I think this is one of the largest reasons for differing views of canon--so much of what we know about the characters is from nonverbal cues, which are inherently ambiguous. They also take more effort to notice. Someone who's not focused on Tara because they don't think she's cool won't notice all the lovely nuances of detail in Amber's facial expressions, how she holds her body, etc., so of course they have a different viewpoint because they haven't paid the same kind of attention that we have. Those of us who have paid close attention still differ in the details of our interpretations.
[/quote:9510bdb75c]
I do agree with this up to a certain point. I think it depends on how "open-minded" the individual is. Even though I may dislike certain characters, I really do try to focus on the details in order to better ascertain why I dislike them. Understanding the nuances is quite key, as you've stated and I think if the subtleties tend to clash with a fan's belief system or moral code or what-have-you, they may tend to just either turn a blind eye or completely dismiss those details.

What I've always adored about Willow and Tara (as well as Aly and Amber), is that they're subtlties have so much depth...they make you WANT to know more about them, to delve deeper and find out why they feel the way they do, why they react to certain situations, etc. All of which is wonderful fodder for fanfiction. I also agree too that its hard to tell where certain "quirks" of the characters came from, be it from fan fiction or the show itself (i.e. Willow's dream babble, her distaste for flying...those things which I am still trying to figure out where I saw them).

This is quite a stimulating discussion. It's led me to examine more closely how I write, my methodology in characterization and what I feel for Willow and Tara.

Cheers!


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:33 pm 
FWIW, my definition of canon has always been almost willfully perverse: What I like is canon, what I don't like isn't, regardless of whether it appeared in the series, a novel, fanfic, or whatever. I think this comes from my having been a Doctor Who fan where, with over 25 years of televised episodes alone to work out, you get selective just as a matter of self-defense. And that's to say nothing of the novelizations, original novels, fanfic, audio adventures...

In an "official" sense only things that happened in the series should be canonical, but I see no reason why I should have to be offical. I don't have to accept anything if I don't want to. Speaking of self-defense, in a way that's what fanfic is--defense against disagreeable things which we're supposed to accept because they're "canon."

Fuck 'em. We don't have to.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:56 pm 
On some level I still think that "canon" ought to be strictly defined. I know that Sherlock Holmes fans have a very clear idnetification of what is canon and what isn't, though that doesn't make any of the non-canonical material any less interesting or good. It just isn't the official vision that Arthur Conan Doyle had. The same is true with George Lucas. He has given license to certain media other than movies to be included in Star Wars canon. But with regards to BtVS and W/T, certainly Joss Whedon hasn't given any of us material approval. He hasn't accepted our additions as accepted part of the history of the Buffyverse. Even the Eden Role playing game BtVS has warnings for things they think could have happened, or were implied to happen, but are not strictly speaking canonical because they aren't actually shown on the show.

I think part of the definition of canon is the facts that have appeared on the show. We know Tara went to look for Willow in Hush, because that is what was shown. Could Willow have seen Tara in passing earlier? Sure, that's possible. Did they have a long in depth discussion prior? No, that goes against what was shown. The events that were shown are easy to agree over, the hard part is when we try to assign motivations to the characters. I always tell students in my history class that history is more than just what happened when. That can be looked up in any text. The real question is WHY something happened. What caused it? And since we can hardly say exactly why WE did anything, trying to assign a motive to someone we don't know is even harder. We have clues and indications, but they aren't always clear or exact. Did Tara fall in love with Willow right away? I think so, but it was never said for sure on the show. We don't always get all of the character's motivations on the show and so differing viewpoints on what is canon regarding a character's outlook or makeup is going to be likely.

Part of the problem is that we are also talking about W & T who were more background characters and we didn't see the full development of their relationship. Who made the first move for the first kiss? Open to wide interpretation! Fanfic can provide so much more material, detail and concentration on these characters that it almost has to feel more canonical than what was on the show. fanfic writers who write several pieces, or one really long one, need to have a good idea of what they think the motivations will be and that should come through to the reader (if the fic is any good at least.) Perhaps there would be less debate if W/T were literary characters where it is easier to show what they are thinking than TV ones. But in the end, Joss did pay Marti to write Willow's character. He did look over (presumably) what she wrote, Alyson gave it her spin as she portrayed it on screen, and Joss or whoever edits BtVS didn't cut certain parts, or chose certain scenes. All this makes ANYTHING shown on the show, much more canon than anything we'll ever do. However, that doesn't mean the canon is right, good or should be allowed to stand in our minds or our own works. I like the idea that fanfic can go beyond canon, but it will never be canon.

Garner


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:05 am 
Is canon what the readers think it is, as Ben proposes, or what the writers think it is, as Garner proposes?

[b:75ca3e9cb5]The Spirit and The Word[/b:75ca3e9cb5]

Let me suggest a middle ground by means of dividing canon into two categories: spirit and word. The word of canon is clear--the words and actions of the characters as shown on screen--but the spirit of canon--the reasons and feelings behind and meanings of those actions--is not.

Since the word of canon is clear, it can contradict itself, with new words and actions inconsistent with the history of the show. This type of contradiction generates a crisis of spirit, as the reader attempts to make sense of the contradictory events shown by the writer.

Garner appears to interpret canon as meaning the word of canon, while Ben appears to be interpreting canon as the spirit of canon. They're both right, but they're talking about different aspects of the issue. By definition, the word cannot be superseded, but the spirit can be if fan fiction writers create something that the reader finds more true to past events of the show than current events of the show are.

[b:75ca3e9cb5]The Divine Right of Creators[/b:75ca3e9cb5]

Which is more important, spirit or word? While the word comes first and is stamped with the seal of the official writers, the spirit is what the readers or viewers get out of the work. In any type of relationship between the masses and authority, the masses determine whether that authority is legitimate. Once the divine right of kings no longer convinced the people that monarchical government was legitimate, its doom was sealed and such governments eventually ended to be replaced with a new concept of legitimacy through popular election.

What I'm asking in this thread is whether the divine right of the creators of Buffy has been replaced by the popular approval of the viewers? I would say that it has, with a substantial fraction of the viewership rejecting the show after season 5 as shown by declining ratings and increases in the amount of fan fiction. The unified monarchy of the television show has failed--it's no longer on the air--and it has been replaced by a variety of confederations of fandom, such as the Kitten, each with their own popular and dissenting views on the spirit of canon.


Thanks to Ben and especially Garner for their participation in this discussion which led me to the ideas expressed in this post.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:03 am 
The problem with questions like these is that they're never going to be settled to mutual satisfaction, because every viewer has his or her own definition of canon.

I would say yes, with the careless handling of the universe of Buffy over the past two years, ME has relinquished their right to determine the fate of the characters. But there are many for whom only "strict constructs" of canon--that which appeared on television--are acceptable.

So as I said, I think that only individual definitions of canon are necessary. My definition should only matter to you if I get a job writing my "Willow, Tara and Anya Detective Agency" spin-off for TV and am hence in a position to determine "official" canon. And since that's unlikely to happen, you don't have to worry if I, personally, think Anya killed Xander, ate him, and replaced him with an enchanted slab of meat somewhere around the third season.

(Which I don't, but man, it's a good idea.)

I do think this can change the longer a series remains off the air. I'm reminded of Dr. Who again, because this is a fandom that has unquestionably risen up and taken control of a canon--the books, audio adventures and so on are as official as we're likely to get--and they're almost all fan-written. However, DW is in the unique position of having never really had a Gene Roddenberry, Chris Carter or JMS--someone who, for good or for ill, we could say, "it's their vision." Buffy has a definite creator and one who is still evidently interested in controlling the mythos.

Trek fandom did much the same as DW during the "wilderness years," between the end of TOS and the beginning of the films. They kept their mythos alive by taking control of it and writing much of it themselves. And then, when "official" continuity started up again, they were told they weren't part of it. But that doesn't make any of the Trek books I read and liked not part of the mythos as far as I'm concerned. And that's all I gotta worry about.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:50 pm 
[quote:389911ab8a]Quote:
If the author wanted to change canon for their work, one would think it would behoove them to make logical progressions for that change instead of the random, all-over-the-map variations that ME wound up doing. While I respect the original author's right to change their mind about their creation, they really have to consider whether or not said changes will help them keep their fanbase, as you've stated. Subtlety, apparently, is lacking in the rich and famous writers when it comes to foraying into unknown territory for the sake of breathing new life into their creations.
[/quote:389911ab8a]Kieli: Exactly. They need to try to bring enough of their fans with them to keep the franchise going. There's nothing wrong per se with making major changes to canon but it must be done in away that grows sufficiently out of past canon to bring the audience with you. I have a feeling that ME has forgotten their audience the last two seasons and are writing more for themselves. Since they didn't have to worry about renewal, it seems to me that they forgot their audience and put their therapy diaries on the air. [quote:389911ab8a]Quote:
What I'm asking in this thread is whether the divine right of the creators of Buffy has been replaced by the popular approval of the viewers? I would say that it has, with a substantial fraction of the viewership rejecting the show after season 5 as shown by declining ratings and increases in the amount of fan fiction.
[/quote:389911ab8a] Darkmagicwillow: Too true. Many of their fans rejected the canon of the last 2 season which is why season 6's ratings sank and the last season had the lowest ratings since first season. ME needed their fans to launch a new show and to continue the franchise but instead decided to alienate whole segments of them. I personally hope that canon is taken over by the fans and that the Buffyverse as written by the creators ends soon. I'm not really interested in what ME wants to do with the Buffyverse and haven't been for the past 2 seasons. I never used to read fanfic but found myself doing so with BTVS for the first time to get my Willow/Tara fix. Since W/T have long been my main reason to participate in the buffyverse, I've replaces series canon with Pen's canon. I have gotten far more enjoyment from fics here that I have gotten from the creators "vision" in a long time.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:27 pm 
DarkMagicWillow is right that I am splitting canon between the word and the spirit. The word is easy to agree on, the spirit is subject to so much more interpretation. Though, if the creator does a good job, the word and the spirit should be more in synch, unfortunately I now question Josswad's talent, at least as a creator of arcs.

I think that the longer BtVS is off the air, the more fandom will come to create its own set of canon for the show. At least here on the kitten. If in five years Josswad decided to start up BtVS universe in some manner he would of course ignore everything we arrived at. He would deal with his word and leave it at that. Which is too bad.

I think it is pretty amazing that an original vision could be so powerful as to attract so many followers, and then mis-step so completely that fans would rather forget anything that happened for two years. I am hard pressed to think of any other fandom where this has happened. Maybe on Xena?

Garner


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:25 pm 
I think the question of "What happened to Joss/Buffy?" may best be answered by something David Gerrold wrote in his afterword to the published version of Harlan Ellison's original Trek script for "City on the Edge of Forever."

"A TV producer is an ordinary human being who has made the mistake of falling asleep next to a big green pod filled with money. When he awakes again, he has been transformed into an alien thing that feeds on power, talent, and the blood of the innocent."

For the moment, I still believe to my tippy-toes that Joss, behind closed doors, must know that Buffy ended two years ago. But money, ego, etc etc we all know the theory.

The question then becomes, though, for me, if we accept my scenario above, does such "selling out" give fans more license to take control of a canon themselves?

I will give Joss & ME this about year six, if nothing else: They were trying to make a change. Failing miserably, but trying. Year seven, though, was such a throw-up-our-hands,we-don't-know-what-to do-anymore season, that they were almost daring fans to pick up the loose ends they dropped.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:40 am 
Garner makes an interesting statement about the power of the original vision of Buffy. There's definitely something that attracts people to Buffy and makes them want to write fan fiction, because there is so much more fanfic based on BtVS than there is based on almost anything else other than ST. (Admittedly, the closest thing to an official survey I've done is a look at fanfiction.net's number of stories by fandom, but it seems to be true by the number and size of sites I've seen.)

What is it about Buffy that has such appeal? There have been vampire stories before, and closer to our hearts, witch stories before. Buffy's charismatic, but not uniquely so. For me, it definitely has something to do with the secondary characters, especially Willow and Tara, but even Cordelia and Xander in the early years along with villains like the Mayor and Faith and Spike&Dru. However, it took the series going wrong in s6 to get me really interesting in reading fanfic and finally also interested in writing it as well.

What's the appeal of Buffy for writing and/or reading fanfic over other fandoms for you?


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:34 am 
I have never read any other fanfic. I started reading BtVS fanfic because I thought W/T were cool, massively so, and wanted to see more of the characters. Lo and behold there were fanfic sites that had that. So I read a bunch. That in turn led me to start writing again (I have been off and on since like age 9 or so. The early stuff is seriously scary!)

What is it about BtVS that is so powerful? I think it is sort of a combination of modern urban mythology tied into a strong epic feel. We get likable characters of a broad variety that have at least one that anyone should be able to relate to. The High School setting is one of the most formative for everyone, good or bad, and that resonates more. The idea of being able to make a difference in the world, of having a special higher calling, or just being a part of that, is also very powerful. It speaks of purpose and identity. A struggle worth fighting. And yet it did not lose sight of the human factor, the need for dating and being loved, relating to your family, the bully at school, discovering who you are, that sort of thing. All that was woven together very skillfully.

Season sux however, threw almost all that out the window. There was no purpose anymore, no noble fight. There was no relating to the outside world, or not as much, no dealing with the next level of human progression, or at least maybe everyone dealt with the exact same problem, abuse. If one of the cast had dealt with that, and others dealt with other issues, say X/A get married and deal with that, W/T deal with bigotry and not being allowed to get married and discrimination, maybe Dawn deals with excelling in class, whatever, that might have been better. The lack of female empowerment underlying the show also hurt. Really, season sux on is a totally different show about mostly different people.

So you have a strong attraction to early material, and then a severe disappointment with later material, and that adds up to more desire for good stories and perhaps incentive to write your own as the bastiges who wrote the later stuff obviously lost it.

Garner


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:39 pm 
Garner: Yes it all boils down to a desire for good stories. ME created a remarkable cast of characters but threw away alot of interesting potential plot lines. I wanted to see more about Tara's mom and witchcraft, Faith's early days for two. They always seem to run out of ideas for characters like Tara or Cordy but fanfic authors can find sotires for them. What's wrong with this picture?


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:19 pm 
[quote:5439c428dc]Quote:
However, it took the series going wrong in s6 to get me really interesting in reading fanfic and finally also interested in writing it as well.

What's the appeal of Buffy for writing and/or reading fanfic over other fandoms for you?
[/quote:5439c428dc]

Anybody know how much fanfic Xena has inspired? Because if the paralel of a show that people loved until its final two seasons holds, we might be onto something. Also if there was a way to find out how much (or if) fanfic for Buffy increased over the past two years. Maybe as people lose their trust in a "real" canon they gain more confidence in creating their own version.

As for me, I wrote "Witches Moon" because I always thought Tara and Oz needed to have a conversation, and it was apparently never going to happen on the show. I still don't read much fanfic, but of that I have, the best stuff seems to be like that, stuff that TV either would not or could not show.

And at the very least, it's fun.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:30 pm 
Garner, good analysis of what makes Buffy interesting. We need modern myths, as it's difficult to fit the old ones in as our world is so different than theirs, but it's hard to create something that's compelling and BtVS has done that, which is one primary reason for the amount of fanfic out there.

Ben, at fanfiction.com, there are 17,059 Buffy stories (plus 3188 Angel stories) compared to 861 X:WP stories. There are 6,000 Star Trek stories of various series, though that's obviously a low count since ST fanfic predates the site by so many years, and 4,000 X-Files.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:41 pm 
DMW, I think your analysis for the purpose of Ben's question is a little incomplete if you're only counting the fic on Fanfiction.net (which is not the end all, be all of fanfiction, no disrespect intended). If you did a count of Xena fanfiction, say of # of sites that contain Xena fanfic that you could find in a Google or AskJeeves search and compare them with the Buffy fanfic using the same methods, I think you'll find that they're pretty evenly matched, or there might be even more Xena fic than Buffy fic. I do realise you were only concentrating on Fanfiction.net but doing so does Xena fanfiction a disservice. Xena was out before Buffy, had a relatively equal following and generated a ton of fanfic. Granted, that need has now tapered off after the hideous ending of the show (does anyone ELSE see a disturbing trend here?? :shock ) and I think Buffy fanfic might go down that road soon enough, sad to say.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:15 am 
Kieli, it's not meant to be a complete analysis. I was just tossing out the easiest numbers to find as I don't have the time or desire to spend sufficient effort to get a good count of stories across the net. Most sites don't give counts, and it's hard to find all the sites. That said, my personal experience suggests that BtVS has considerably more than X:WP, but fewer than ST.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:20 pm 
Hmm...ok then I will respectfully disagree with your assessment as my personal experience has led me to observe otherwise...even doing a simple fanfic search led me to find more Xena sites than Buffy fanfic sites. However, I think it has to do more with trends...whatever show that happens to be trendy at the moment might see a large spurt of fanfiction (erm....that sounded FAR less sexual in my head :paranoid ). When XWP was tanking, there was suddenly an influx of Xena fanfic to be had that rewrote the final seasons. We're seeing the same trend here with BTVS. I wonder if it has to do with the disturbing trend of male creators of powerful female figures in television suddenly destroying their creation for unknown reasons? If someone ever decides to do a study examining this topic, I would LOVE to read what comes out of it.

Cheers,
Toni


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 11:17 am 
One of the reasons that there are disagreements on what is canon in Buffy is the variety of source material: the original movie which established Buffy and the vampire slayer mythology, the unaired pilot with the alternate Willow, the BtVS TV show, the Angel TV show, a failed animated series, multiple comic series, novelizations, games, and of course, fan fiction. All of these sprung from an original seed planted by Joss Whedon, but the vast majority of these works were created by other authors, and even when scripts were written by Joss, much of what we see on screen comes from producers, directors, and actors. Given the presence of one or more of multiple creators, multiple media, and multiple instances within a medium, there's a question of what's canonical and what's not.

Since what is considered canon evolves over time as more stories are produced, let's compare Buffy to a story that's further along in its evolution. This story has also appeared in a wide variety of media by different authors: Superman1. The part of his canon that's present in almost all stories is that he's "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound" (note the absence of flight as originally he couldn't fly though that's in most stories), his weakness is kryponite, he has an alter ego as mild-mannered reporter Clark Kent, and his principal rival is super-genius Lex Luthor. However, there are plenty of events that happened in the comics series (and more if we include movies, books, TV series, animated series, games, etc.) where I'm not sure if they're canon or not, ranging from a rainbow of colors of kryptonite having different effects on him to his cousin Supergirl to his superdog Krypto and supercat Streaky. Some of them are present in later comics, movies, and TV, while others aren't, indicating that some ideas can be discarded from canon at a later point in time.

Buffy is a younger work so fewer stories have been told, leading to a smaller number of questions, but there are questions nonetheless such as whether Willow's Sabrina-esque magic in [b:3910f330bd]Smashed[/b:3910f330bd] or her magic addiction in [b:3910f330bd]Wrecked[/b:3910f330bd] and afterwards is canonical. Both contradict prior series canon and neither is supported by later events, so perhaps they're like gold kryptonite or Krypto, events that were presented in canon material but which aren't considered canon any longer. It's true that it's the writers who ignore past canon events, but it's often the readers who get them to do so--it was clear that the readers of Superman thought the superpower thing was getting out of hand with superpets so the writers eventually dropped them and I think the same is the case for the weirdness with Willow's magic.

Whether it's canon or not is a question we ask ourselves, consciously or unconsciously, when we're presented with a sequel (whether it's a direct sequel like another episode or season or Buffy or a spinoff like Angel) to a work we enjoyed. Is the authorized sequel to Gone with the Wind canonical? What about Isaac Asimov's Foundation's Edge? Even though Asimov wrote the original Foundation books of which Edge is supposed to be the sequel, can I accept the sudden change from navigating via sliderules to ships having computers that interface directly with your mind, as canonical?

While the owners of the Buffy intellectual property will never declare a fan fiction story as official as they can't make money off of it, the readers can and often do, though no fan fiction story has a wide enough readership among the audience to have a large influence, but that's a topic for another post.

1A short history of Superman containing the elements here can be found by following the link above. I'm not a big fan of the story, so most of my knowledge comes from other people and references like this one.


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:30 am 
DMW using superman as a comparison is a great idea, and highlights the point very well. Canon is something that can and will evolve as a show goes on. Especially one written by several different people over a substantial period of time. For some reason they never quite remember what went on earlier or why they had such and such occur. Which is too bad. Superman of course has bee around far longer and through a lot more hands, not to mention a lot more eras where ideas of what was and wasn't possible have changed making the story also have to alter. Still, I do like the idea of the fans being able to direct the writers to an extent so that lame or silly stuff is dropped eventually. Maybe that did happen with the magic addiction crap.

Still, that doesn't make Fanfiction canon, just a much better alternative to the canon that is out there. In something like B5 where the inconsitencies are less, the problem is not a bad. Speaking of which, how much B5 fanfiction is out there? Season 5 of B5 was not the best either.

Garner


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 Post subject: W/T: Canon vs. Fandom
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:40 pm 
Even better, what about Smallville in relation to the Superman canon? Doesn't the series seem like a rather interesting bit of fanfiction brought into our homes every Tuesday night? It's a whole lot of what ifs with a modern-day twist. Thanks DMW for that in-depth aside. I was wondering if anyone was going to posit Superman. Glad it was you ;)


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