Lesbian Cliche FAQ - Final (tentative)

[DaLilBit]

does it all have to be about who you love?? Actually...most of the shows I watch are about dysfunctional ppl. He he. I never watched TV just to see portrayals of straight relationships. I watch to learn stuff and on occasion be entertained. When you focus on one aspect of entertainment you'll find its not entertaining anymore. Personally...I like to see ppl in love. Gay or straight. Anyway...I was not aware that there was a cliche involving lesbians going evil and being dead. There are plenty of other more damaging cliches and stereotypes. My pet peeve is black ppl being portrayed as damned fools. Plenty of black ppl act just like the ones on TV but I'd like to see black ppl in a wider variety of roles. However this does not keep me from enjoying TV. I'm a fan of action. I'm writing a Buffy/Angel/Charmed-esqe movie(he he!!)and most of the characters are black and native american. I say don't just write long FAQ's about what you are feeling...take some action!!

[Sheridan]

[quote:4a25d75e1c][b:4a25d75e1c][i:4a25d75e1c]Quote:[/i:4a25d75e1c][/b:4a25d75e1c]

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There are plenty of other more damaging cliches and stereotypes

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[/quote:4a25d75e1c]
Sorry but that is dangerous nonsense. it's the attitude that says I know other groups are being oppressed, but mine should come first in the queue to fix things. Bigotry is bigotry, you either tackle it as a whole or you will never tackle it at all.

[DaLilBit]

I didn't mean it that way. What I'm trying to say is that you have to realize that there is some cliche or stereotype about everyone. Maybe I should write a Thug/Ghetto Black Person FAQ cuz Gunn is obvious every stereotype about black ppl. Naw...its not that I don't care its just that its not the top issue facing black ppl. Surely there are more pressing issues for lesbians to attend to. Like getting same-sex unions legalized. I'm for it!!

[Sheridan]

[b:4fff0805b7] DaLiBit[/b:4fff0805b7] before you go any further along this argument I would suggest in all sincerity that you go read a few pages of the 'I love Tara...' thread. You will see that for a lot of people here W/T was an emblem, the only thing on mainstream television that said that you could be lesbian and [b:4fff0805b7] happy[/b:4fff0805b7]. I am a straight white male who came here because I loved W/T and needed a place where I could find a sympathetic ear. When out of curiosity I read the FAQ my first reaction was 'Oh their exaggerating' and 'well it can't be that big a deal'. The more I've read here and the more I've looked at the portrayal of lesbians in television the more firmly I've been convinced no they aren't exaggerating, and yes it is that big a deal.

[DaLilBit]

But why do they personally attack Steve and Marti when Joss is really the mastermind behind everything? I've talked to Steve a few times at Beta and he's a nice guy. From what I'm told the writers can't reveal whats going to happen on the show. I really felt for him. Having to write the ep that was sure to piss everyone off. I'm a writer and a reader so its entirely possible that I was the only person who saw Tara's death coming. I know how much ppl loved Tara. Once I wrote a topic entitled "Why Tara was evil and manipulative." and ppl jumped on me in less than a minute. It was really about all the things I loved about her and ppl scolded me for playing such a naught trick on them. )

[xita]

Personally I don't care to be married, it is wrong for anyone to assume what issues should come first. You also assume that this is all we do. This is what we do for Buffy. Take a look at the banner above us, it's about the most important issue to me as a gay person, teen gay suicide. It comes before marriage, adoption, etc.

Gay youth don't usually have rolemodels. I never knew a single out gay person growing up, the only gay people I knew were in television. From what every adult told me, gay people were sad people that lead sad lives. Television is the easiest way for us to reach gay youth, and a show like Buffy had it, but you know what they chose to do with it. It is important, for gay people, the media portrayal is crucial. It is one issue that I chose to focus on, it is not nor has it always been the only issue. For Buffy fans and for people interested in media, this is a big issue. We all pick our battles, we have picked ours. We can't save the world, but maybe we can save one teenager and that's worth it to me.


[b:ceeed48125] please leave other boards out of this discussion, it is against the rules[/b:ceeed48125]. Steven Deknight was perhaps the most hurtful with his succubus club interview, in the midst of our sorrow over Tara, he joked and stepped all over our feelings as people, as lebians, as Tara lovers. I have no sympathy for him. Marti was executive producer, Joss takes most of the blame, but what is she showrunner if she can't even have input on things like Amber being credited for villains.

[Sheridan]

[quote:f9ed90d170][b:f9ed90d170][i:f9ed90d170]Quote:[/i:f9ed90d170][/b:f9ed90d170]

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But why do they personally attack Steve and Marti when Joss is really the mastermind behind everything? I've talked to Steve a few times at Beta and he's a nice guy

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[/quote:f9ed90d170]

Well perhaps he is if you avoid mentioning the T-word, because then he descends into sarcasm and tasteless jokes. Check out the Spin vs Reality thread, I think you will find some examples in there.

[quote:f9ed90d170][b:f9ed90d170][i:f9ed90d170]Quote:[/i:f9ed90d170][/b:f9ed90d170]

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I'm a writer and a reader so its entirely possible that I was the only person who saw Tara's death coming

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[/quote:f9ed90d170]

Uh have you looked at the Pens sectio of the board? you might find there are a couple of other writers among the Kittens as well. It wasn't that no one else saw Tara's death coming, it's just that I, and I supect a lot of other people, assumed that Joss would do something a little more creative and a lot less cliched.

[xita]

Tara's death was the most obvious thing he could do, along with Willow going evil. The spoilers were out since the summer. I just thought he would never be so obvious. But even talented people make terrible terrible mistakes. *cough* waterworld, firefly.

[DaLilBit]

I'll be happy when the new season starts so we can move on. If I hear one more thing about the attempted rape or this issue I may self-destruct...or just *sigh*. Why don't I see any threads about Willow and how she is? I love Willow and want her to be ok. She lost her love and tried to destroy the world. She's my fav character and I'm a Willow/anyone she loves shipper!!

[xita]

I really think you should take the time and get to know the board. It is really hard sit here and engage all your questions that could be answered if you lurked a bit and read our FAQ. Please lurk if you are really interested in becoming a member of the community.

[b:3225447d00] We have an I love Willow and I want her back thread.[/b:3225447d00] And season 7, may or may not be discussed in this board. It has not been decided. And if it is, I can guarantee that not everyone will be able to participate in that discussion. Also this is a place for willow/tara shippers, not willow/anyone shippers.

[kyraroc]

Edited to add: Wow, other people are way faster on the draw than I am. I feel so redundant now.

--- KR


DaLilBit -

The first post you made, largely regarding Tara's role on the show and the general flow of typical events on Buffy, I feel somewhat misses the real point of the FAQ. The cliche won't be found if you look for it strictly within the confines of a single TV show; after all, there's only ever been one lesbian couple on Buffy. But, as others have mentioned, within the greater confines of the television landscape, lesbian couples tend to invariably end up dead or evil, and it's this trend that Buffy has pretty undeniably become a part of.

As for whether it matters, well, I believe it does, just as it would matter if every single black person on television were portrayed as a "damn fool". Widespread media images influence how people think about other people. We're hoping that, with the FAQ, we open some people's eyes to what's going on and possibly, somewhere down the line, get a step closer to seeing a television landscape which has lesbians and, hey, other traditionally steretyped minorities too, in a "wider variety of roles."

On the other hand, I think most of us are well aware that there are other issues out there, and that there's more to an issue than a FAQ. Similar to what you've done, I've been working on a play in which the lesbian couple does end happily. The board is raising money for a charity which benefits gay teens, and many other members of the board are involved in activism of a variety of kinds on a variety of issues (one member of the board was in a landmark gay adoption lawsuit). But this is, after all, a Willow/Tara fan board, so it's no surprise that the big issue here is what's going on in the world of television. But I think it's a mistake to assume that, because it's what we talk about here and it is important to us, it's our only issue and all we do is talk about it here.

--- KR

[mscheckmate]

[quote:cb29c9ef0d][b:cb29c9ef0d][i:cb29c9ef0d]Quote:[/i:cb29c9ef0d][/b:cb29c9ef0d]

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Surely there are more pressing issues for lesbians to attend to. Like getting same-sex unions legalized.

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[/quote:cb29c9ef0d]


Before the legal battles can be successful on a wide scale, hearts and minds have to be changed. The battle has to be fought on all fronts, and that includes speaking up when an insensitive or hateful stereotype is perpetuated. Showing the dead/evil lesbian cliche' yet again sends a destructive message about gay relationships not only to glbtq youth, but to the general public. If gay people are constantly being depicted negatively in the media, how do you think the general, heterosexual public is going to vote on gay-related legislation?

[DaLilBit]

*sigh*...I've never met such a hardcore bunch of fanz...I'm Spuffy but I'm open to Buffy/anyone really...and deep down...I'm Wanderlust...I know everyone is gonna stone me but thats how I feel...maybe when I do my profile website I'll come back to get some W/T info from you Kittens...I'm a multispecies BtVS fan...I'm a NBerBaterVampAnywherian:Willowclaw and thats on a normal day...do you guyz multi-Bronze it or do you post here exclusively...

[Sheridan]

[quote:53098b7465][b:53098b7465][i:53098b7465]Quote:[/i:53098b7465][/b:53098b7465]

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Why don't I see any threads about Willow and how she is?

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[/quote:53098b7465]

Because you haven't looked past page 1? There has also been plenty of Willow concern in a number of the other threads, a lot of it in the angry rant thread given the nature of the spoilers that have come out.

[quote:53098b7465][b:53098b7465][i:53098b7465]Quote:[/i:53098b7465][/b:53098b7465]

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I'll be happy when the new season starts so we can move on. If I hear one more thing about the attempted rape or this issue I may self-destruct...or just *sigh*.

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[/quote:53098b7465]

You joined a Willow and Tara board and you expect it to move on? You really, really should have read some of the other threads, I'm not going to let go as long as ME pretend this was all wonderful. Both those things were mean, nasty, and degrading, You can move on, I'm comfortable right here.

[DaLilBit]

actually...there is only one page of topics...I see that ppl stay in certain threads...

[BBOvenGuy]

[quote:75deeafd1e][b:75deeafd1e][i:75deeafd1e]Quote:[/i:75deeafd1e][/b:75deeafd1e]

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Originally posted by DaLilBit:
[b:75deeafd1e] And somewhere in LA...a black guy and a white girl are in a positive relationship.[/b:75deeafd1e]

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[/quote:75deeafd1e]

Give Joss time...

[xita]

You should click the link that say show all topics because we have 12 pages of posts, plus there are 2 archives that deal with the show. And each of those archives has tens of pages.

Remember you can't change a community to fit you, you have to see if you fit into the community. This is never going to be a board that is accepting of w/other. It's a w/t board. It has been for over 2 years now, it's not going to change.

[Sheridan]

There are [b:fae4376780] 12[/b:fae4376780] pages of topics, not to mention the pens section which has another dozen.

[maudmac]

Look, the bottom line is this is a W/T shipper board. We don't all agree on every single issue, but we are [i:baefcc045b] all[/i:baefcc045b] united in our love for W/T. We have no interest in Spuffy or W/Other or any other ships.

This is W/T love 24/7. Always has been, always [b:baefcc045b] will[/b:baefcc045b] be.

[i:baefcc045b] ETA: xita, quit reading my mind. It's disconcerting.[/i:baefcc045b]

[DaLilBit]

I'm not a fanfic person. I wrote one but it was for a contest(I hope I win!!). Archives...I don't look at them cuz there is always a good topic you wish you could respond to but its closed. Oh cruel fate!!


edited to add...
ok...I see the 12 pages...it kinda throws someone off when certain topics are on every page!! The Bronze should have that. Then we wouldn't have to keep explaining why there's no new slayer etc.

[Sheridan]

[quote:c391aaf112][b:c391aaf112][i:c391aaf112]Quote:[/i:c391aaf112][/b:c391aaf112]

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I'm not a fanfic person. I wrote one but it was for a contest

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[/quote:c391aaf112]

It's just my personal view but I think you get a glimpse of the emotional core of the Kittens on the Pens board. You don't have to read the stories, just take a look at the summaries and I think you would get a good idea of where the Kittens are coming from.

[BBOvenGuy]

[quote:c40928b694][b:c40928b694][i:c40928b694]Quote:[/i:c40928b694][/b:c40928b694]

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Originally posted by DaLilBit:
[b:c40928b694] *sigh*...I've never met such a hardcore bunch of fanz...[/b:c40928b694]

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[/quote:c40928b694]

Well, having a constant stream of strangers wander in and try telling you how to think and feel will do that to you. Unless it's the constant stream of strangers you're referring to...

Really, what is it about this place that appeals to you folks so much? I'm not trying to be rhetorical, here. I really want to know. Has coming here to argue with us become a rite of passage somewhere or something?

[Kendahl897]

By the way, DaLilBit, the statement made by Joss that he had no plans to send Tara anywhere and that she was a big part of the heart of the show was not made in response to any spoiler, it was a general statement made to E-Online. I'm always curious if the people who come here from the other boards were so blatantly lied to about the fate of their favorite character, they would be so forgiving and practice the 'get over it' attitude that they so freely preach here. As for the new season, when the philosophy of your show seems to be that no one can be happy, what's the point? I trusted Joss, I believed him and the others when they gave reassurance after reassurance that Tara wasn't going anywhere because I thought they had enough respect for me as a fan not to lie so blatantly to me. God, was I naive on that one. Why would I EVER give Joss a second opportunity to screw me as a fan again? He knew that W/T meant so much to a segment of their audience because they were unique. He preyed on that, he reveled in the praise, he built up a trust with his lies and then he destroyed it.
I hope you enjoy Buffy this upcoming season. I, and I think alot of other people will be watching the Gilmore Girls...
*

[BBOvenGuy]

Kendahl, you've just hit upon an excellent point, one I haven't really dealt with in my many hours of essay writing.

These people who come here to argue with us or who try to rebut or denounce us elsewhere keep hammering away at three points - (1) Joss is under no obligation to tell his story in a socially responsible manner, (2) Joss has every right to lie about what he's planning to do, and (3) Joss will never let a couple end up happy.

These people hammer away at all three of these points - and then have the nerve to be surprised when we don't want to watch the show any more.

The funny irony of this whole mess is that the people who support Joss deliver a message that is every bit as off-putting to a potential new viewer as our message is. I mean come on, if I knew nothing about Mutant Enemy but read posts by people telling me that if I watched a certain show, I could expect no responsible behavior, I couldn't trust a thing the producer said and I would never see anybody end up happy, I wouldn't go anywhere near that show. If I was absolutely forced to watch TV at that hour, I would choose Army training films over a show like that. And all these comments that are sending me running away from the show are coming from that show's own fans.

Before these people get so worried about viewers being driven away by what [b:2ca8f7720c] we[/b:2ca8f7720c] say about Mutant Enemy, perhaps they should look at what [b:2ca8f7720c] they're[/b:2ca8f7720c] saying first.

[hilarita]

this isnt really about buffy the vampire slayer for me. i honestly dont care about the story anymore, and im tired of caring about joss whedon and what hes going to do next. for me, the show was merely a very serious catalyst to bring me to what i consider "the big picture," and it has nothing to do with who buffy ends up with or how many relationships end badly on this show.

im not a political person. i have always had my opinions and absolutely no desire to be active about them. i was drawn to willow and tara for the story, and i was drawn to them because it was the only healthy gay relationship i had ever seen on television. it made me happy to think that people all over the world were seeing this very honest portrayal of a lesbian relationship, and i am sure it was breaking down stereotypes for people, and i am sure it was helping kids get through their own fears about their sexuality.

when i heard about how joss whedon thought willow and tara were one of the most important things they had done with the show, i was so pleased. finally, someone out there in the media is actually thinking about helping people. i was sure that the producers understood the significance of what they were doing, and i was sure they were actively trying to do the right thing- do an honest, loving portrayal of a same sex relationship on television. for the first time. ever.

when i learned, months and months ago, that tara was going to die, i was disappointed. because it had been doing so much good, and now it wasnt. and because i had really believed that the producers were trying to do good. i know now that they were trying to serve the story alone- and thats fine, thats their right, but man, was i disappointed. i felt like my favorite babysitter just told me she likes to eat puppies. it was like losing an idol. it wasnt fun.

im not worried about the show anymore, though, and im not worried about what those people involved with it are thinking or doing. im not even worried about all the people who were learning tolerance from willow and tara. what im worried about is the scared high school girl who thinks she is alone in the universe, who thinks something is seriously wrong with her, because she finds herself attracted to women. a year ago, she could have seen willow and tara on television, and she could have been so relieved. so could have felt accepted. and now, thats gone. whats worse than that, is that if she does start watching the story of willow and tara, shes going to see it end in the most violent possible fashion. i dont care if tara needed to die. i care about what all the kids who were putting their hope in willow and tara are going to go through. when they simultaneously see their sexuality validated on screen in the episode where tara gets her heart blown out. the show is of no importance to me in relation to the people who really, actually needed willow and tara, and in relation to the pain people felt when the only example of their lifestyle was destroyed.

so, ive found a political calling. im speaking up for the kids who are going to have to grow up in this media graveyard, where its perfectly acceptable for someone to say "homosexuality is wrong" on a station like CNN. where you feel like you are destined a priori for a sad and destructive life, because thats all the world tells you. i had the good fortune to grow up with open minded people, but keep in mind that not everyone does, by a long shot. and for younger kids, the media is basically telling you how to be happy. im not trying to get buffy canceled. i dont care what happens to joss whedon. i just want people to know that willow and tara mattered, that they were important, and that we, as a society, needed them.

[Kendahl897]

Hilarita,
I really think and hope you do send this to ME, UPN, Fox, the Advocate and anyone else you can think of. If you don't have time' let me know and I will be happy to do it. Just not without your permission. Really, I think it was beautiful and I just wish Joss could read it to know of the damage he has done..It makes me doubly glad that Xita said what she said to him at Comic Con...

[the kat whisperer]

Damn, I had this big long rebuttal of the rebuttal that took me ages to write out ('cause I'm not the fastest person in the world) and folks went and got in there before me, and what's more said it so much more eloquently than me... well... I'm posting it anyway

Hi, [b:269629ae40] DaLilBit[/b:269629ae40]

[quote:269629ae40][b:269629ae40][i:269629ae40]Quote:[/i:269629ae40][/b:269629ae40]

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Rebutting The Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliche

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[/quote:269629ae40]

Hmm, I'm not sure if there's any actual rebutting going on here, as it seems to me like your points have been addressed before in this thread and are not all necessarily about the clich anyway, but anyhoo, here's my opinion for what it's worth...

[quote:269629ae40][b:269629ae40][i:269629ae40]Quote:[/i:269629ae40][/b:269629ae40]

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I'm gonna start out by saying that I am not a lesbian. So its entirely possible that I really can't feel what a lesbian feels when a character who was loved as much as Tara is killed.

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[/quote:269629ae40]

Okay, granted, but as has been pointed out before, it's not [i:269629ae40] just[/i:269629ae40] the lesbian fans who are upset. Being a lesbian doesn't mean one has a monopoly on feeling angered by her death [i:269629ae40] or[/i:269629ae40] how it was handled by ME.

[quote:269629ae40][b:269629ae40][i:269629ae40]Quote:[/i:269629ae40][/b:269629ae40]

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1.The burning question: Did Tara have to die? No. She didn't. However I think the writers realized that death brings out the rawest emotions in a person. In The Body we saw Buffy go through a gamut of emotion in just a few minutes.

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[/quote:269629ae40]

Yes, I agree, death can bring out the rawest emotions in a person, as you say we've seen it with Buffy in [i:269629ae40] The Body[/i:269629ae40] and also for that matter, Giles in [i:269629ae40] Passion[/i:269629ae40]. So, was it really necessary to see it [i:269629ae40] again[/i:269629ae40]? IMO, Tara's death was simply the easiest way to send Willow over the edge, but more importantly, it wasn't required at all (Tara's brain-sucking in [i:269629ae40] Tough Love[/i:269629ae40] was enough for Willow to go all dark-magicky then).

And, since you bring up the subject, there are stark differences between the way Buffy's mom's death was portrayed in [i:269629ae40] The Body[/i:269629ae40] and the way Tara's death was portrayed in [i:269629ae40] Seeing Red[/i:269629ae40]. Joyce's death was an emotionally significant event to all the Scoobies, each learning a lesson about losing a person with whom they were close to. Tara's was a cheap plot device to achieve the goal of DM Willow. The loss of Joyce reverberated throughout the rest of the fifth season and into the sixth, Tara was as good as forgotten about by the next episode, and the entire DM Willow storyline lasted just three episodes.


[quote:269629ae40][b:269629ae40][i:269629ae40]Quote:[/i:269629ae40][/b:269629ae40]

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2.What happened to Tara is not unique. Take the case of one Jenny Calender. For the most part Jenny was not a Scooby. She was Giles love interest. Here's a pattern I see in both her and Tara: Suspicion--Acceptance--Death. When Tara first appeared she came off as suspicious. Not because she was a lesbian(I admit my gaydar only works on guys. I wouldn't know a lesbian if I attended The National Association of Lesbian Lawyers convention.). It was the fact that she seemed to be holding back. In Family we find out that she thought she was going to turn into a demon. After that I came to really like her alot. And in the Buffyverse when you start to like a character or ship its days are surely numbered.

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[/quote:269629ae40]

Comparing Jenny's death and Tara's death really has no relevance here, as is described in Question 9 of the FAQ. Also, by your own words, what happened to W/T is what happened to every other relationship in the Buffyverse... so why couldn't ME have given us something new for once? Perhaps a relationship that survived and grew stronger through adversity [i:269629ae40] instead[/i:269629ae40] of being destroyed. I always thought [i:269629ae40] Buffy[/i:269629ae40] was clich-subverting... oh wait.


[quote:269629ae40][b:269629ae40][i:269629ae40]Quote:[/i:269629ae40][/b:269629ae40]

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3.Was Tara really a Scooby? I'd say she was a Scooby by association. Mainly because she wasn't in every episode of any of the seasons she's appeared in. Mostly she was portrayed as Willow's girlfriend and as a secondary witch. The writers used Tara to show off the many facets of Willow while not really telling us anything about her and I think Tara suffered as a character because of it.

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[/quote:269629ae40]

Tara was a Scooby. There was that whole "we're family" scene in [i:269629ae40] Family[/i:269629ae40] to illustrate that. And besides, is that really relevant? She was Willow's girlfriend; to her Tara was in no way secondary. Actually, I'm not sure what your point is here anyway. Is it that since you don't believe that Tara was a Scooby that her death was to be expected in someway or, god forbid, not as important as if a 'real' Scooby died?

[quote:269629ae40][b:269629ae40][i:269629ae40]Quote:[/i:269629ae40][/b:269629ae40]

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4.BtVS has a rather dynamic storyline. Characters are added and deleted as needed. Alot of people said that Anya should have died instead of Tara. I disagree with that. Anya has played an extremely active role in the Scooby Gang and stayed with the SG even after her breakup with Xander. Tara stayed away from the gang and Willow after Tabula Rasa and if she and Willow had never made up I have reason to believe that she would have continued to stay away. Maybe coming around to act as Dawn's babysitter/mother figure now and then.

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[/quote:269629ae40]

Guess we'll never get to find out if your theory would've been correct or not. Perhaps I'm being cynical here, but IMO, Tara only continued to stay away from the gang for so long because she was required to act as a plot device for May sweeps, and therefore couldn't get back together with Willow till then. And for the record, I don't think Anya should have died instead of Tara either, I don't think that [i:269629ae40] any[/i:269629ae40] character should've died.


[quote:269629ae40][b:269629ae40][i:269629ae40]Quote:[/i:269629ae40][/b:269629ae40]

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5.People lie. I knew Steve DeKnight was lying when he said Tara wasn't going to die. Once I heard that Willow was going evil I knew it would be because Tara died.

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[/quote:269629ae40]

Hmm, well good for you that you're able to spot liars so easily. I guess I'm kinda trusting when it comes to folks telling me that Tara was going to get killed "over my dead body", more fool me...

As for you knowing Tara would die once you heard Willow was going evil, well I figured that too, after all Tara was the only significant other not given regular status in the credits, so she was effectively always a marked woman. The difference is, I just didn't believe the rumours, as I trusted ME when they said outright that Tara wasn't going anywhere. Again, more fool me...


[quote:269629ae40][b:269629ae40][i:269629ae40]Quote:[/i:269629ae40][/b:269629ae40]

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6.Willow's journey with magic has been a long one. Sometimes amusing and sometimes frightening. I thought Willow would go over the edge alot sooner than she did. I think that Tara leaving her at the end of Tabula Rasa actually made the situation worse. Willow does not deal with loss or pain well. She has always buried herself in magic to drown it out. If Tara hadn't come along in s4 she might have been the big bad that season. Willow's going evil was just a build up of all the loss she never wanted to face. Oz's leaving. Buffy's death. Tara's leaving her. Tara's death. She had to face it all at once and she went off the deep end. The fact that she is a lesbian really has nothing to do with it.

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[/quote:269629ae40]

I'd agree with you, if it hadn't been for the fact that ME made that connection themselves when they perpetuated the lesbian clich. Tara died violently and Willow went evil minutes after lesbian sex, the same way most other lesbians die or turn evil on TV and in the movies.


[quote:269629ae40][b:269629ae40][i:269629ae40]Quote:[/i:269629ae40][/b:269629ae40]

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7.Willow and Tara truly had a beautiful relationship. It made me feel good about TV and the world in general. Why concentrate on the negatives? Look at the big picture for a sec. Buffy left an unhealthy relationship and never looked back. Xander finally had to be the grown up and act like a real man. For the first time Willow had to deal with loss in a natural way. And somewhere in LA...a black guy and a white girl are in a positive relationship. ME's report card: B-

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[/quote:269629ae40]

Yes, you're right, W/T [i:269629ae40] had[/i:269629ae40] a beautiful relationship, and they made me feel good about TV and the world in general too. In fact, they made me feel good about myself that they were there at all. So why shouldn't I feel upset now that that has been taken away from me? Frankly, I'm concentrating on the negatives because that's all I can see. I see Tara dead, and Willow destroyed, where's the positives here? Willow and Tara were snatched away from me so violently that it's kinda hard to see anything else.

Oh, and don't expect the "black guy and white girl's positive relationship" to last, BTW. 'Cause, you know, everyone knows that relationships don't end well whenever ME are portraying them onscreen. I've learned [i:269629ae40] that[/i:269629ae40] lesson good and proper.

[quote:269629ae40][b:269629ae40][i:269629ae40]Quote:[/i:269629ae40][/b:269629ae40]

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thats the end...of my rant...hope it made some sense...feedback would be great...troyssis@yahoo.com

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[/quote:269629ae40]

Well, I for one thought it was an interesting rant, and for the most part made sense , however, there's still nothing in it to persuade me to think differently. And, I should imagine, not many other folks here either.

kw

[friskylez]

It must be a coincedence that people from other boards are just "dropping by" to give us their views on season 6 and how "they" feel about Taras death

Especially in light of the fact that there are "disgruntlings" going on about the kittens over on the boards..Come to see what all the fuss is about have you

[roamin]

hilarita that was terrific.

This battle truly is about kids, straight and especially gay.
They need to not just know, but to see that being gay is not "a sad life destined to end badly" as that woman said on CNN. But a life like any other, full of hope and possibility and free from hate.

once again, well said hilarita.

[Coma123]

[quote:c928d00d11][b:c928d00d11][i:c928d00d11]Quote:[/i:c928d00d11][/b:c928d00d11]

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But why do they personally attack Steve and Marti when Joss is really the
mastermind behind everything? I've talked to Steve a few times at Beta and
he's a nice guy. From what I'm told the writers can't reveal whats going to
happen on the show. I really felt for him. Having to write the ep that was sure
to piss everyone off.

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[/quote:c928d00d11]

If you go through the archives you will see that the mods on the board were arguring the same thing as you. Not to blame SDK, he just pulled the short straw when it came to writing Seeing Red. But he then did an interview were he was not only abusive towards fans, but made jokes that were insulting towards the G/L/B/T community. Thats when people got angry and still are.
I'm sure most people here would be more then willing to forgive and forget if he offered a sincere apology but we're still waiting.....