When/How did Joyce find out about W/T?

[an]

Hmm.. my first topic on this board. I hope it won't disappear into the depths of the Kitten Board History soon.

Anyway, I watched Buffy vs. Dracula two weeks ago, and in the comment Joyce made to W/T about giving up on men alltogether, I think we can read that Joyce didn't know about the whole W/T thing.

In the next episode, Real Me, Dawn writes in her diary about how she was sent to her room by Joyce when she remarked she wanted Willow and Tara to teach her the things W/T do together. And in this comment we can read that she has found out.
But we can also explain this as Joyce doesn't want Dawn to be witchy.

What do you guys think? And if this is a very clear question (yes, you're right/no, you're wrong, let's not talk about this anymore), *how* do you think Joyce found out?

Anneke
(hoping that this wasn't talked about before she got here)

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I don't remember it being mentioned before - I'd guess Joyce picked up on things fairly organically, like by observation.

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I think when Joyce sent Dawn to her room, it was more of her not wanting Dawn to get into witchcraft rather than anything regarding W/T relationship.

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"Be the best. No negativity, no weakness, no acquisence to fear or disaster. No errors of ignorance. No evasion from reality." -- Jeff Buckley

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I'm not sure when Joyce found out about Willow and Tara but we definitely know it is sometime between Buffy vs. Dracula and X-mas. I agree with Dododioh. I've always felt that Joyce's comment to Dawn was never in reference to Willow's and Tara's relationship but rather about her fear of Dawn starting to practice magic.

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You know, I get the feeling that on occasion the writers are willing to ignore continuity and logic to a small degree for the purposes of humor. Which isn't necessarily bad, but can be annoying to people--not that I have any particular people in mind --who are obsessed with matters of continuity and logic as regards their favorite characters.

For instance, in "Buffy vs. Dracula" it really doesn't make sense that Joyce doesn't know about W/T. For one thing, Xander actually says in the ep, regarding their relationship, "News flash, Will--everybody knows." Okay, so he was speaking rhetorically...I mean, not every single human being on the planet knows...but the impression given was that everyone in the Scooby circle was aware of the relationship, and why shouldn't they be? After NMR no one was making any attempt to hide it. And Willow was pretty close to Joyce...you're telling me all those months went by and the subject never came up? That's seriously stretching the bounds of credibility.

Nonetheless, the line is there. I've justified it to myself this way: Joyce knew, but at that particular moment she was so flustered by the fact that she'd invited Dracula into the house that she didn't think about what she was saying. And it's all good, because we get to see Willow and Tara sharing that bemused smile. But I can imagine Joyce, a moment or two after the scene ended, suddenly getting a mortified look on her face and stammering out, "Oh!...girls...I didn't mean...I shouldn't have said..." while Willow and Tara giggle and tell her not to worry about it.

Anyway, it works for me.

Then we have the Dawn bit in "Real Me." Some people seem to think that Joyce actually was worried about witchcraft when she sent Dawnie to her room, which would make sense. But the way the joke is constructed, we are clearly meant to pick up on the irony present--Dawn thinks her mom was worried about witchcraft, but in actuality it was lesbianism, or sex, or lesbian sex--and find it humorous. Which I did.

But this situation is a bit more troubling than the first. Was Joyce freaked out by the idea of Dawn being a lesbian? That totally makes no sense. First of all, Joyce was not an idiot, so I can't see her believing in the "gay cooties" theory, despite its popularity with the American populace (a good proportion of which are idiots, IMO). And I can't see her as being homophobic either, so why any concern at all over lesbianism? My take: Dawn said she wanted Willow and Tara to "teach [her] some of the stuff they do together." Joyce, in full mom mode, heard "stuff they do together" as "sex," got appropriately freaked by the notion of her 14-year-old having sex--not lesbian sex in particular, just sex--and sent Dawn upstairs. This is in keeping with what we know about Joyce and avoids any homophobic ickiness.

It also doesn't preclude Dawn knowing about W/T as well, since again, there's no reason she shouldn't. It's just that, when she made the comment, she was thinking spells, her mom was thinking sex. As we know, the two are commonly and easily confused.

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i agree with dazey. joyce knew and may have just absentmindedly slip that out. dawn's lines were subtext and writers love that in this show.

but if joyce did have a problem with witchraft or gaycraft *g* she'd not have let Dawn hang out with Willow or any of the scoobs for that matter.

hmm... i feel a fic challenge has been posed... someone should take that up.

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I also agree with the notion that Joyce freaked at the idea of her younger daughter being interested in sex -any kind of sex.
The fact that Joyce was thining about sex and not *only* witchcraft is too obvious to be missed and, as Dazey has pointed out, is also quite funny...

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Dazey that's an interesting interpretation of what happened in "Buffy vs. Dracula" and it makes perfect sense. It seems highly unlikely that Joyce would not know about Willow's and Tara's relationship because based on what we learned in Family it appears that Tara did spend the summer in Sunnydale.

While I agree that Joyce's comments to Dawn can be interpreted as her being freaked by the notion of her 14-year-old having sex I've always felt that was not the case. True Joyce was in full mom mode when she made this comment, but to me her concern was that if Dawn became involved with magic it could lead to her becoming involved with the Scoobies in a way that would put her in danger. Granted the Scoobies would never let that happen, but remember from Joyce's point of view she has one daughter whose life is on the line every day and as such she would have a tendency to become overprotective as far as her youngest daughter is concerned.

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Okay my theory is that Joyce [i:b824f0f677]didn't[/i:b824f0f677] know in "Buffy VS Dracula" but found out not long after. And I'm one of those who thinks Joyce was reacting to the idea of Dawn and sex of any kind.

Of course, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that Joyce had an emotional hiccup when finding out. It happens. But certainly Joyce was conciously very supportive of Willow and Tara, like the warm (albeit) imperfect Lady she was.

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

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See, I am still the only one who thinks Joyce didn't know in Buffy vs. Dracula found out by Real Me and didn't approve. This works for me. I think that it was a subtle way of showing that not everyone was supportive and this happens in real life and usually with parents. Joyce was the parental figure along with Giles. I think that it is then powerful to see that Joyce had dealt with this in some way. Except we didn't really see it. We only see in The Body that by Christmas they had all come to some understanding.

I don't think they set up that whole joke in Real Me to only mean magic or underage sex.

Having said that perhaps that scene isn't really about Joyce but about Dawn and really not about Dawn but about Lesbians and children, which Dawn is. I am going a bit off topic here but it directly addresses homophobia regarding gays and lesbians and the corruption of minors. We move from Dawn not knowing what is going on with them all the way up to arguably the Body where she still might be oblivious

TARA
Oh, baby, do you want me to rub your tummy?
(to Xander and Anya)
She likes it when I... stop explaining things.

This has passed over Dawn's head -- she looks in her nearly empty glass of nog.

But then by forever she's sleeping over at W/T's and being in a way parented by them with Tara being the stern parent and Willow being the pushover. Dawn is then privy to the love between Willow and Tara because our girls got more affectionate and open after the brain suck. Certainly she knows by now and not only that w/t take a central role in the upbringing of Dawn, I would expect them to be even more involved as surragate parents next season. In this way the homphobic concern has been addressed and defied.

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Ok, I'll admit it- for reasons still not all that clear to me, Dawn almost instantly became my third most favorite character on the show, right next to Willow and Tara.
Maybe because, even more so than Xander, she represents US (Key or no), the everyschmo.
And pehaps equaly baffling is the feeling I have that Dawn "belongs" to our dearest Wiccans- even more so than to Buffy.
Them being her guardians just feels "right" to me somehow.
Also, it also seems to me that she brings out qualities in our heroines that they might not otherwise exhibit, even to each other.
Jokes about "the power of three" aside, I'm also pretty sure she is going to become a witch herself, eventualy; there have been just too many hints dropped about this throughout the season. It makes sense that Our Roses would be the ones to teach her.
I'll even go this far- if ever there *was* a TV Willow/Tara spinoff, I'd want Dawn to go with them.
Guy.

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I was under the impression that Joyce didn't know about them in the dracula Episode but did by the time Real Me took place. And I think her sending Dawn upstairs was because Willow and Tara are gay not because of magic. I don't think Joyce did it because she had something against W/T, I think she did it because like many people I know they have no problem with gays and lesbians until it's THEIR child and then all of a sudden it's the worst thing in the world. Joyce may have been of the opinion that it's okay as long ai it's not her child.

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She practically had "Genuine Molded Plastic" stamped on her ass.
Just tryin' a little spicy-talk.

Tara from "I Was Made To Love You"

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One reason while I feel that Joyce's comments were about her concerns with Dawn becoming involved with magic and thus the Scoobies in a way that would put her life in danger is because this was her greatest fear next to losing Buffy. Given the inherent dangers of living in Sunnydale and the threats that Buffy and the Scoobies constantly face it would only be natural for Joyce to feel this way. In the end her fears were unfortunately justified.

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited June 17, 2001).]

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The reaction by W/T to Joyce's comment in Dracula certainly seems that their relationship was unknown to Joyce. But, could it be that she did know of the W/T relationship and had in that moment forgotten? It might have been among the first indications of her illness.

Speaking of which, I have always wondered if what the Monks did to implant memories of Dawn, might have been the cause of Joyce's illness. I have always had bitter-sweet feelings towards Dawn because of that notion.

OK...I know that Dawn only appeared at the end of Dracula; but the Magicks that the Monks were using to re-create the Key as Dawn and implant the memories were undoubtedly ongoing throught the Dracula ep.

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I would say that after they did the spell to keep out Drac, Willow filled Joyce in about her relationship with Tara. She may not have come right out with it, but I'm sure Joyce got the message.

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Paula
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Amber FanGirl #1a
May the Amber Force be with you.
Tummy Rubbing Club Member #1
"I love being a girl, having a girl.." ~as sung by Amber Benson in the UK

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Yeah, I tend to agree with the theory that states Willow told her about her relashionship with Tara between those two episodes.

I don't think Joyce could heve picked up the vibe on her own.This is after all the same Joyce that was clueless as to her daughter's true nature in seasons 1-2. As for the comment in Dawn's diary, I think it was mostly played for laughs.Probably not the funniest joke on the show, but even Joss can't get everything right.

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I think the way Michelle delivered the lines, it was played like Joyce was thinking 'Ooh I don't want my 14 year old daughter to think about sex, any kind of sex' That's how I've always viewed it, whether that's how David Fury wanted it interpreted, I guess only he knows?

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To love someone deeply gives you strength. Being loved by someone deeply gives you courage. -- Lao Tzu

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I didn't even think about Willow and Tara looking after Dawn in the beginning at least of S6.. I mean, now that (uh oh, spoilers for The Gift)..

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.. Buffy's gone, and they are Dawn's guardians.. I think that would be a very good idea for the development of the characters.

Oh yes, "gaycraft".. love that word Rane!

Anneke

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lijdrec:

The reaction by W/T to Joyce's comment in Dracula certainly seems that their relationship was unknown to Joyce. But, could it be that she did know of the W/T relationship and had in that moment forgotten? It might have been among the first indications of her illness.

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Lijdrec, I stand by your side! I think you're right!

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I like the idea of Willow and Tara taking care of Dawn until Buffy comes back (Depending on what condition the Bufster's in of course!) I think it makes sense for Giles to be her legal guardian but for our girlies to live at the Summer's home where they can take care of her day to day!

Of course that's what I'd like, what we actually get will probably be something totally different

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To love someone deeply gives you strength. Being loved by someone deeply gives you courage. -- Lao Tzu

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Hmm W/T living in the Summers home.. I can imagine Buffy, back from the dead, coming home.. "WILLOW! What are you doing in my bed?!".. *g*

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quote:

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Originally posted by An:
Hmm W/T living in the Summers home.. I can imagine Buffy, back from the dead, coming home.. "WILLOW! What are you doing in my bed?!".. *g*

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Ooh, you should see the images I have in my head now

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To love someone deeply gives you strength. Being loved by someone deeply gives you courage. -- Lao Tzu

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If you think Buffy would be surprised, just imagine the look on Willow's face whe she sees Buffy walk into the room.

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited June 17, 2001).]

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Wow!

I think you guys are right about Dawn's diary entry in RM. I always wondered why Joyce just made her go to her room instead of talking to Dawn about magick and I mean argueing against it. If she understood 'sex' however... it was probably much more awkward for her to talk about that, especially the lesbian type... I guess.

Thanks for pointing this out. A joke that completely got lost on me. Anyway, that's why I LOVE this board.

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Humm, very interesting comments on this. I like the idea that Joyce just wasn't thinking and may have known in B vs D. I also have thought that it was possible she found out sometime during that week. The other possibility is that, with the introduction of Dawn, the timeline changed slightly, and for some reason, with Dawn in the picture, she would have found out a bit earlier than in the "original" timeline.

However the timeline works, though, it does seem clear to me that Joyce's comment/reaction in Real Me is supposed to be read subtextually- the joke isn't funny if Joyce really is just kinda freaked out about witchcraft. Now, I can firmly believe it has to do with discomfort with talking/dealing about sex in general when it comes to her youngest daughter. And for those going "oh, come on, she's fourteen years old"- go back and rewatch some of the Buffy eps. She didn't really have "the talk" with Buffy until after *Angelus* (not Buffy) tells Joyce that he and Buffy had sex. Not to speak ill of the dead, but Joyce was wonderful at playing Ostrich. She could bury her head in the sand with the best of them. So, her not being particularly comfortable discussing W/T's relationship with Dawn- her 14-year-old baby? Doesn't surprise me.

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

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Something else that occurred to me regarding exactly when Joyce found out: in "Real Me" Dawn writes in her diary about Xander, "Just last week he went undercover to stop that Dracula guy," so we know that the events of "Buffy vs. Dracula," in which Joyce supposedly did not know about W/T, took place within a week of the diary-writing. This is the same diary session in which she says regarding W/T, "One time I told Mom I wished they'd teach me some of the things they do together" etc. Note her words--"One time I told Mom." This is a phrase that is generally employed when one is talking about an event farther removed than a few days or even a week. If it had happened post-BvD, it's more likely she would have said "the other day" or "a couple of days ago" or something.

Call me crazy, but I think this is more evidence for Joyce knowing pre-BvD.

xita, I think your theory that Joyce didn't approve at first and that "it was a subtle way of showing that not everyone was supportive and this happens in real life and usually with parents" is interesting, but it seems to me it was a bit too subtle for that to be the case...I mean, considering that we're debating it like this. The thing is, pretty much every theory that's been advanced in this thread is workable, so this is prolly just one of those things where there'll never be a consensus.

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So Dazey are you thinking implanted memory?

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Huh? You mean, like, monk-made memory?

No, my theory is that Joyce found out sometime post-NMR, as she almost certainly would have (Xander: "News flash, Will--everybody knows") and simply spoke without thinking in BvD with the "giving up on men" comment. See my earlier post in this thread.

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Re: Joyce's reaction to Dawn's request...
I'm personally of the opinion that Joyce read "teach me some of the things they do together" as "include me in their sexual practices" or "perform some of the things they do sexually on me"... that's not a homophobic reaction, it's more of a "I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I don't want to talk about it lest it be sex" reaction, get my drift? pretty scratchy theory, but... hey.

As for W/T taking Dawn home in Forever, wouldn't they have shared a bed next to Dawn, thus making obvious their relationship...? Willow was hesitant to let Dawn go to her place, but figured it was for the best, so I think they just decided to play it cool and let Dawn figure it out for herself... point is that if you're not looking for it (gay relationships btwn other ppl) then you won't often find it. Gaydars etc.

-Wolfix, gay about being gay

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Live, Love and Never Miss BtVS!

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I think Joyce knew sometime after Real Me. She wasn't the brightest in the bunch was she, I mean, not knowing that her own daughter was the Slayer...

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"You lying little tramp! You're not the Moderator Fantastico, you're nothing! Just another worthless Willowhand. Now bring me the buttshot!" ~ Ruthificus

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