When/How did Joyce find out about W/T?

[Unregistered(d)]

There is a more wacky explanation.

Joyce found out retroactively through the memory edit of Dawn.

She didn't know at BvD

At the end of the episode, Dawn is inserted into reality and everyone's memory.

Dawn has been friends with Willow and Xander forever in the new memories/reality.

So Willow probably visited Dawn, or Dawn visited Willow more often in S4 in the new memories than in the actual S4.

Joyce picked up on Willow's new 'friend' thanks to the increased contact she had with Willow and Tara in the new memory of S4 and the summer.

So when Dawn writes her journal in The Real Me, Joyce now knows from before BvD.

(As for Joyce, I figure it's a parent's desire to shield the child from even the knowledge of sex. And Joyce would have at best an inaccurate understanding of what W&T do, in magic, and wouldn't be sure of what kind of crossover there would be. And there is the whole "I've already got one daughter fighting the powers of darkness, you can be accountant instead." attitude.)

I

[Unregistered(d)]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolfix:
As for W/T taking Dawn home in Forever, wouldn't they have shared a bed next to Dawn, thus making obvious their relationship...?

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In that episode, there were two bedrolls on the floor, and Tara sat on one of them. I figured she slept on the floor next to Dawn.

Anyone have a copy of that epi around?

I

[Unregistered(d)]

See, when we discussed this at the pre-Nocturnal Buffy watch-a-thon, we decided that W/T were sharing a bed. But then, the other people deciding this were Garfield, Puff and Halcyon...

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"Actually, I-I was thinking it would be sort of like a pet. You know, we could ... we could name her Trixie, or Miss Titty Fantastico, or something.
And we could make Titty go bonkers with curse words and buttshots and stuff?" ~ An homage to Nocturnal 2001

I

[Unregistered(d)]

So you are saying tommo, that there were no particular fantasies running through the group's mind, and that you were all objective observers of reality?

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Um....yeah!

Actually, we were wondering whether Tara was going to sleep with Willow. The general consensus said yes, that Dawn knew all about them.

Judging by Dawn's attitude towards Tara's feeble excuse about the Buffybot, it seems that not much wool is pulled over that little key's eyes...

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"Actually, I-I was thinking it would be sort of like a pet. You know, we could ... we could name her Trixie, or Miss Titty Fantastico, or something.
And we could make Titty go bonkers with curse words and buttshots and stuff?" ~ An homage to Nocturnal 2001

I

[Unregistered(d)]

I'm just saying, irrespective of whether or not Dawn knows or not, I don't think W&T would have slept in the same bed with Dawn in the room.

If she doesn't know, they might have felt self-conscious.

If she does know, they would have still felt self-conscious, but in a different way.

Let's phrase this a different way. Do you think Buffy and Riley would have felt comfortable sharing a bed while Dawn was in the room?

Edited for clarity....

[This message has been edited by CaBil (edited June 18, 2001).]

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Regarding Joyce's comment in the Dracula episode, I was thinking that perhaps Joyce thought that Willow and Tara being together in a romantic relationship was "a phase" and that some day they might be with men. So her comment was geared toward that. She had to have known about them after NMR.

The show seems to point out a few times that some people (e.g. like some in the BtVS audience) thought Willow was going through a phase or experimenting with her sexuality in college, and Joyce might have been one of those people. So even though she knew about W/T relationship, she still thought men were a possibility in the future.

What I love is the look (at the door in the Dracula episode) between our girls that lets us the audience know, back in those early days, that they are NO PHASE! They are in love and this is for real!

I agree with Xita that Joyce was probably uncomfortable with Dawn being aware of specifics on W/T's relationship. I think that the writers wanted to show us that it is a common feeling and attitude that a parent may have regarding homosexualtiy.

With this in mind, I think the writers took these feelings and over time, evolved Joyce's comfort level(as well as the audience's) to a level of acceptance for the girls together as a couple. After all, Joyce is a parent and it is good to see her be comfortable with W/T. Same with Giles, I think. Good for the audience to see acceptance by parenty types.

Anyway, now my brain is fried...

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Calbill if you see that ep, there is no other bed roll. There is only the sleeping bag/roll that dawn is sleeping on. Tara sat on the floor at one point to talk to Dawn. No doubt they were sharing the same bed. I think it's pretty clear here

I

[Unregistered(d)]

quote:

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Originally posted by CaBil:
So Willow probably visited Dawn, or Dawn visited Willow more often in S4 in the new memories than in the actual S4.

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Um...why? Buffy is Willow's best friend, and Joyce was more of a mother to her than Willow's own mother. I mean yeah, Willow loves Dawn and they obviously spend time together playing chess and whatnot...but my point is, Will would have spent plenty of time at the Summers house regardless of Dawn. My bigger point is, there's just no reason for her not to have told Joyce about her relationship with Tara. Especially before Dawn showed up, since that negates any possibility of concern from Willow that Joyce might react negatively due to worries about Dawn.

The whole Dawn thing makes this, and many other questions, difficult. Because, to what extent did the insertion of Dawn-memories affect memories of everything else? I personally am of the opinion that the memory-insertion left everything as intact as possible...that everyone remembers things just as they really happened, except that Dawn was there. I could be wrong.

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Thanks xita, I was sure we'd discussed this. Perhaps W/T didn't mind sleeping together because it was a 'girls' night or something.

Besides which, Dawn's intelligent enough to understand the situation. And let's face it, they wouldn't want to be separated on such a sad day.

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"Actually, I-I was thinking it would be sort of like a pet. You know, we could ... we could name her Trixie, or Miss Titty Fantastico, or something.
And we could make Titty go bonkers with curse words and buttshots and stuff?" ~ An homage to Nocturnal 2001

I