Joss in Bust Magazine

[xita]

I am going to scan it big and you can read it in the scan. But I will type up the interesting piece from it. Well, interesting to us.

How important is it to you to either label or not label characters in terms of their sexuality? I'm thinking of the whole brouhaha that went down last season with Willow and Tara. Is it imporant to go, "Willow's bisexual,' or "Willow's gay, Willow's experimenting?" Or is it just part of a process for a character like her?

I wish we never had to do that. If we could have just let it stand as a relationship... but I don't know how realistic that is, necessarily. I was hoping it would all just happen. They had great chemistry, and it seemed like a natural step for someone in college to expand their sexuality. It all made sense. And there was a great metaphorical way to play it, so it felt right for the show. And they're so romantic together. Then as soon as anybody heard it, it was like, people went nuts. the papers were calling and all this stuff. And I was like, "wait a minute, aren't people over this yet?" I was so shocked that it was a big deal. The otehr thing was that we finally did an episode where [Willow] said, "I love Tara." And everyone went through the roof. "oh my god, you made her gay, goddamn you to herll, how could you do this, I can't believe it." And I'm like , "Where were you for the last ten episodes? Didn't you see that spell? [Wicked Witch voice] That was a dirty spell!!"

Another issue that came up at the same time is that people were ranking on Amber Benson's body type.

On the internet. There were some reallly nasty comments. These are the same people who said Marc Blucas was too skinny, so...

He looks good to me!

Too skinny? Wait 'til you stand next to the man! Yeah, there was some stuff, and of course I went ballistic. She's incdredibly slim, tiny, like many actresses. It's that weird TV standard. They're like, "Look at Tara Flynn Boyle, she's a wraith." Then someone shows up who looks even remotely like a woman, she actually has hips and things like that, and people say things like that. It pisses me off to no end. Poor Amber. And she's so beautiful.

She certainly is. Do you have a personal relationship with the actresses on your show in terms of nurturing body image?

It's a big issue. I know what things make them uncomfortable. they all look incredibly great, and they spend all their time saying how bad they look. Which, for those of us that do, is annoying. It's a big issue for them. My whole thing is, "just be healthy. You're all gorgeous, tehre's no bad, just be healthy." I would like the to wear skimpy outfits and whatnot. I would like sexuality to be a part of the show. And I would like the attractive people to be present. I'm not going to lie - that's part of it. But at the same time, I try not to be exploitative. They're not running around in bikinis. There's a comfort zone, and they wear things they're comfortable with. Every now and then we'll say, "Well, can we try this?" There's a give and take in those relationships.

Joss Drawing

[This message has been edited by xita (edited December 24, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited February 24, 2002).]

[Dave V]

Thanks, xita, for both the scan and the excerpt! It is always interesting to see Joss' thoughts behind what we see on the TV screen. In terms of body image, I'm glad Mr. Whedon is supportive of the actresses in his wish for them to just be healthy. I've see my sister struggle with these kinds of issues, and I don't wish that kind of pain on anybody.

Anyways, happy holidays to all you kind folks!

[Dr.G]

Thanks Xita, I have to love that man when he says things like that.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 24, 2002).]

[Spring]

I've always been curious about Joss's perspective on the body image of the actors on his show. Excepting Amber, there seems to be a clear type for men and one for women.
1)Women are boyishly shaped with small breasts, no hips, small butts, little noses, big eye, etc.
2) Men are very beefcake-ish with wide shoulders, strong jaws, generally hairless, very masculine, etc.

Since it is his show, I want to know why in the casting the aesthetics leans towards archetypal male traits (even in the boyish actresses). That added with the fact that he minored in feminist film studies (right?) has always confused me. I think there is an intentional subtext to BTVS, but on the body image thing, it seems as if he only became aware of his own prejudices when Amber got hammered for not looking like the other actresses on the show. Of course, I'm sure it's difficult to cast for womenly women from the pool of tiny actresses in LA...but still, it's interesting.

[xita]

It maybe his choice of what he finds attractive. Or it could be a concious effort to sexualize the masculine as supposed to the feminine. Either way, it is clear he doesn't want to exploit that and that's clear. I think he exploits the dudes as they are often shirtless for no reason. When you look at Dark Angel, it become clear how he has not exploited the women on the show. It seems like the actors have a great deal to say about what they wear. I wonder if that means wardrobe selects something and they approve it.

Also this quote from Joss, "
I wish we never had to do that. If we could have just let it stand as a relationship... but I don't know how realistic that is, necessarily." I wonder if this means he will address this issue now. Will he give Willow a sexuality?

[wolliw]

Thanks for posting this very interesting interview, xita .

spring, I agree that Joss hasn't exactly gone out of his way to break the Hollywood body-type stereotypes for either the female or male characters. But I, like xita, found a comparison with Dark Angel an illuminating contrast. The few shows I saw of DA were never without certain shots explicitly highlighting the sexual parts of Jessica Alba's body, and I recall certain really exploitative scenes where Max is physically felt up by men, not to mention other scenes where she is either sexually objectified by men in other ways (e.g. verbally) or she does it herself to take advantage of the weakness of some idiotic male villain.

On BtVS, I have never seen Buffy (or Willow or Anya) portrayed visually like this. Certainly, SMG seems to be in halter tops a lot of the time, but the camera doesn't linger on her the way it does on JA on Dark Angel. The closest I remember BtVS coming to such presentations is in Who Are You, where there's a shot of Faith-in-Buffy's butt as she is trying to seduce Riley into sex games. But I think that was to make a point that this was a different "Buffy", i.e. the highly sexual Faith. I don't have S3 on tape, so I don't remember how Faith in general was shot camera-wise, but I assume it's nothing like Max on Dark Angel, Faith's bad-girl status notwithstanding.

One might argue that it's all a matter of degree, but I like to think that JW fundamentally has more respect for his actors, female and male, as people than many a producer might.

[This message has been edited by wolliw (edited December 24, 2000).]

[Hugin]

The body types of the women on the show may be in part an offshoot of trying to cast folks in thier mid to late twenties as people in thier teens. I remember some post of other at the Bronze where the PTB were kind of throwing thier hands up in defeat about how big and hunky Nicholas Brendan was becoming.

And I agree, over the course of the run of the show, male bodies seem to have been objectified more than female ones. Have we ever really seen any of the buffy women conveniently clothing-less, outside of a love scene? (Okay, there was naked Buffy the ex-rat...) But we've had quite a bit of hairless man-chest, between Angel, Riley, Xander (remember the swim team episode?), even Oz (not a big hunky square jawed guy, it should be noted).

-len

[TyRex316]

Tara in her birthday suit in 'Restless' springs to mind(a lot). And also at least one cameraman loves it when Amber is all 'cleavagey' like in 'The Real Me'. Those are the only instances where I've noticed anything like that.

[Teresa_Roanoke]

Yes, I agree that Dark Angel exploits women in that it glams up Jessica Alba and focuses on her bod a lot. However, remember, the producers have to keep up the ratings if they stay on network tv. Sex sells. I think it's a big step for a major network to feature a young woman kicking ass without apology.

DA portrays a corrupt, degenerated USA with hardly any civilization left. In such a place, yes, the men would grope the women. When Max uses her sexuality, she's recognizing that it's a weakness in these creeps and she uses it as a weapon.

Also, I think it's progress that a tv show has included females as trained soldiers. I love the girl who plays Max as a kid, and think it's progress that the character is depicted with buzzed hair. Yes, that makes sense in the context, but I'm still surprised that TPTB don't give her curls and earrings.

So, I maintain that DA is no worse than most other sci-fi shows in presenting its female heroes. Look at 7-of-9 on ST Voyager. Okay, so that body suit is supposedly for her skin or something. But spike heels! Paaaaleeese! And look at Xena WP -- Gabrielle and the other women were prancing around Norway in the winter snow practically naked! Yet the men were totally covered in fur. Go figure!

Flashback: When I was in H.S., girls had to wear dresses or skirts, even in the coldest weather. I remember the Student Council addressing this with the principal. His response: Girls have an extra layer of fat in their skin so don't freeze like boys do. So you see, apparently that mentality still exists, or the Xena producers would put some clothes on those women!

[This message has been edited by Teresa_Roanoke (edited December 24, 2000).]

[BBOvenGuy]

I tried watching the Dark Angel pilot and the fact that they were focusing on Jessica Alba's body and having Max use her sexuality as a weapon was a big negative for me. I remember thinking, "Buffy has never done that, and even if she ever did, Joss would probably turn it into a gag by having Buffy screw up in another 'I suck at undercover' routine."

There have been some times when the actresses have been dressed up in sexy outfits, but they've always been either within the context of the character (Cordelia, Glory, Faith) or the situation ("Homecoming," "The Prom," "Reptile Boy"). I've never really thought anything was exploitative or excessive except for the Buffy/Riley sex scenes (and perhaps the Buffy/Angel ones).

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited December 24, 2000).]

[Spring]

In regards to DA, I think that there is a great deal of exploitation there and the level of exploitation is inherently different than that of Xena. I'd rather not debate this at this time, but might get back to it later (like tonight when I'm drunk).

I think that Joss is a feminist so I've always kinda been irked by his choice of un-womenly women. Since I've posted that I've been thinking about it for a little while, and realized that perhaps his background in feminist film theory has something to do with this. Especially in the horror milieu (like Buffy) the woman is always a buxom blonde WITH a nice rack and bodacious ass. I'm wondering if his choice in casting for the BTVS leads has been an intentional effort to move away from this uber-woman (ie Pamela Anderson) aesthetic. I've always assumed that there is a lot of intentional subtext in what Joss does. Sometimes he hits the mark, and sometimes he doesn't. But I am gratified to know that there is an intellectual effort by TPTB to say something beyond (or underneath) the overt.

[fell]

joss is so friggin' cool! and so are you xita- thanks for that post.

re: body types of 'buffy' cast, it may not be all joss and his taste. check out the cast of some of the other wb shows, like 'roswell' and 'dawson's creek', the majority of cast members fall into the same categories. as for the "boyish" build of the actresses- maybe, or maybe not. one thing's for sure, you're not going to find many women as skinny as what the mass media deems "ideal" who isn't naturally flat-chested.

and speaking of natural, it's instructive that joss brings up lara flynn boyle in a discussion about body image and health. she looks like a famine victim to me- neither healthy nor attractive.

[Teresa_Roanoke]

Uhhh, I think I need to clarify my defense of Dark Angel. I'm not saying the focus on JA's body or the sexual exploitation, etc., is okay with me. I can't even use the same brain cells to compare that show with BtVS! If DA got canceled, oh well. If I lost BtVS, then major crisis!

I'm simply trying to point out the good that comes along with the more obvious bad. How many prime-time broadcasts (of major networks) even have a female lead? What teenage girls aren't focused on shopping or boys in these? Why have The Muppets been the award-winning,leading influence for children for decades, when they're all male, except for Miss Piggy! And that kids' movie Antz -- ants are all female, for god's sake! The males don't fight to impress the female princess, the few who exist get used then kicked out of the colony to die! The mainstream media is trying to dangerously brainwash us -- it must be stopped!

Okay, I apologize for ranting. My point is that the standards of the ruling media (which includes the major networks and Hollywood Studios) have always been sexist and exploitive of women. Always! Unfortunately, (IMO) they reflect the tastes of this culture. Buffy is an exceptional show, but keep in mind that it isn't even broadcast in much of the US. Xena is syndicated and probably wouldn't be picked up by many tv stations if it weren't for the half-dressed babe factor and their inability to recognize the subtext scenes.

DA belongs to a major network -- simply having a kick-ass female lead is a major step for those people. Showing a tough, shorn girl is absolutely radical! If we could fire all the media executives and make Joss emperor, I'm all for it. However, 'til the revolution comes....

[This message has been edited by Teresa_Roanoke (edited December 25, 2000).]