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 Post subject: HSBC kicks out the Boy Scouts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 10:55 am 
This is a local new story that I was very happy about, at first. HSBC ended the lease the Boy Scouts had for one of their buildings, because of the Boy Scouts stance on excluding gays. The County retaliated by pulling it's money out of the bank. Ouch. Damn fascists. Have I mentioned how I love living here? Grr. GRR!!!

Here's an article on the whole thing: http://www.syracuse.com/news/poststanda ... 106644.xml
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Kitty Trauma Victim #123

[This message has been edited by Shadowcat (edited March 28, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited March 28, 2002).]



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 Post subject: HSBC kicks out the Boy Scouts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 11:08 am 
Thanks for the article. This shows just how divisive an issue acceptance of gays can be throughout the country. The coucilmembers seem intent on building as much negativity as they possibly can towards this bank's brave stance against the scouts' exclusion of gays. My favorite was when the one politician acused the bank of discriminating against the Boy Scouts - as if chrisitan boys are an oppressed minority. Please.

If all of these conservative organizations can withdraw their money from the bank, maybe some nice liberal peoples nearby can support the bank by transfering their money to it.



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 Post subject: HSBC kicks out the Boy Scouts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 11:23 am 
quote:
Originally posted by darvangi:
My favorite was when the one politician acused the bank of discriminating against the Boy Scouts - as if chrisitan boys are an oppressed minority. Please.


LOL. That's possibly the biggest oxymoron I've ever read. Emphasis on the moron part.

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 Post subject: HSBC kicks out the Boy Scouts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 11:41 am 
"...Boy Scouts' national policy of excluding gays and atheists."
My, my. Well, they really wouldn't like me. I'm a double whammy gay atheist!
Thanks for posting the article Shadowcat. It is an interesting (and somewhat aggravating) read.


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 Post subject: HSBC kicks out the Boy Scouts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 12:10 pm 
I certainly didn't mean to belittle christians or Christianity with my joke, by the way. I was just dumbstruck to read that soemone in a position of power would consider the scouts to be in danger of being marginalized through discrimination, when the ones truly in need of protection are the gays who are being shat upon daily by political and societal acceptance of this organization that shuns them. Whew! That was one big, long, angry rant. Thank you, I feel much better.


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 Post subject: HSBC kicks out the Boy Scouts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 12:45 pm 
Oh, oh here's more. Letters to the editor.
http://syracuse.com/opinion/poststandar ... 647560.xml

I actually heard one of my co-workers saying that the county pulling their money out of the bank was "great", then he laughed. *sigh* Yes, damn those radical homosexuals. They always want equality. What are they thinking?



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 Post subject: HSBC kicks out the Boy Scouts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 12:46 pm 
Well, in a way, this is kind of how a free society is supposed to work ... and eventually this is all going to equal out.

First, we have the boy scouts ... a "private" (and I say private because I still haven't been totally convinced they're a private organization, but ... the SC has ruled that they are, so we'll go with that for now) that Very Publically has excluded a particular group.

Then we have certain private entities - like this bank - and public entities (I seem to recall certain cities disallowing use of their facilities to the Boy Scouts because now they're legally a "private" organization and have to pay up like everyone else to use their stuff ... heh) that, because of the Boy Scouts' stance, decline to deal with that "private" organization.

Yay!

Then we have more people piping in and saying that if so-and-so won't deal with the Boy Scouts, then they won't deal with so-and-so.

Y'know what? Still "yay" For two reasons. First, it legitimizes the initial stance that these people won't deal with the Boy Scouts ... because that's the way things work in the US ... we can deal, or not deal, with anyone we damn well please.

Second, it lets us know who the idiots are *G* Because frankly, I want to know who's going to stand up and side with the Boy Scouts on this one, so I can stop dealing with them entirely.

And yeah ... ideally, this bank will get business from groups that support their stand, and it will all even out in the end.

-Sass



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 Post subject: HSBC kicks out the Boy Scouts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:00 pm 
I think this is how Libertarians would have society work: Everyone is free to express their opinion about everyone else by freely discriminating within their power (on decisions like who to do business with). If others disagree with their discrimination they can discriminate in turn, so if the majority of society disagrees with your discrimination they could supposedly force you to change or go out of business.

Unfortunately this doesn't really work very well because the forces that could balance it must contend with far stronger inertia and self-interest. Far more people can believe the discrimination is wrong than are willing to personally sacrifice to make the statement. People might find it wrong (for a hypothetical example) that the only restaurant in a small town excludes gay couples, but when they want to go out to eat with their own opposite-sex partner, a large fraction of them will probably still go to that restaurant (especially if the food is really good), so even if only 30-40% of the town actually agrees with the exclusion, it might not be strong enough to pressure for a change.

Similarly it is far easier for the Boy Scouts to exclude gays than for gays and supporters of gay rights to pressure for change by merely refraining from joining the Boy Scouts (the Scouts say, "So what, not everyone joins Scouts anyway."). Pressure can only really come from someone the Boy Scouts is dependent on such as this bank, or a public school or a church that lets them use their facilities for meetings. Even then many who strongly disagree with the Boy Scouts' national policy realize that the local troops do not necessarily agree with and enforce that policy and choose not to hurt the local troop(s) just to make a futile gesture of opposition to the national organization. And when they do (as in this case), they get opposed for their "discrimination" by people who support the only real discrimination going on but who think "discrimination" is when it happens to them, and not every entity that might take a stand against the Boy Scouts' policy would be able to withstand the backlash.

Some religious conservatives believe that freedom of religion means they are free to impose their religious beliefs on others, and we are not free to impose anti-discrimination laws upon them because it violates their religious beliefs to accept such things as homosexuality. But that is not freedom of religion, that is government support of one type of religion over other types (for example, many subsets of Christianity do not condemn homosexuality) and that is exactly what the spirit of the First Amendment says has no place in government.

The only way to have freedom of religion is for the government to set laws rationally without basing them on religious beliefs; no religion has the right to impose its beliefs on people who do not choose to adopt those beliefs. That is freedom of religion. It's ironic that to truly have freedom of religion the government has to be atheist.

Both the Libertarian and religious-conservative approaches result in a constant war between people who feel some measure of self-worth by exerting power over others' lives and various minority populations whose small numbers make them convenient targets for such bullies, and that is ultimately destructive to society and quality-of-life for everyone. And that's why I am not a Libertarian nor a conservative. The only way people really get along fairly peacefully is to leave each other alone to live their lives and stop getting irrationally upset about other people living their lives and leaving others alone. It'd be nice if a lot more people got that.

I just hope in this case the bank branch is strong enough to continue business there even with a few pull-outs; it would not be good for this to be used as an anti-gay warning. I think the US Supreme Court was wrong to rule as it did. If the Boy Scouts don't teach their members to be good people and treat others decently then it has no reason to exist as an organization. You can't teach people to be good and decent when you encourage hate, bigotry, and fear. That doesn't help society, it hurts it.



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 Post subject: HSBC kicks out the Boy Scouts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 8:37 pm 
This is one of those issues that really makes me think.

Now under normal circumstances my choices would be clear. "Oh you don't deal with people of a certain color/age/sex/religion/sexual identification? Well you also won't deal with me."

But I was a boy scout for years. I loved it, it was great and I learned a lot of things that I find useful today. Sure, I was then, as I am now, an atheist and all my friends (devout friends really) knew it. They asked me if there was a contradiction, beign a boy scout and an athesist. But I never saw it. Eventually it was more than I could tolerate, and I left. But it was not a bad break up. (see I thought they were te crazy ones.)

Today, I look at the situation and really just makes me sad. Not sad in a crying way, just a profound blues or meloncholia that this one more thing from my youth that I thought was one way, but it really was another.

I don't really know what to think.

I was walking into a Wal-Mart last fall and there were some Cub Scouts out in front selling popcorn, like they do every year and like I did 20+ years ago. And then as in now the Cub Scout would ask, "would like to buy some popcorn to support our pack?" and this guy goes off on this little kid about this whole issue. The little guy looked so hurt and was close to tears. For what reason? Can this kid change anything? Was he even aware of what choices adults in his organization have made? No. He knows that scouts was getting together with his buddies, going camping, learning about animals, plants and other cool things to a ten year old. He knowes that if he sells more popcorn they might be able to afford to get rid of that old tent his pack has been using for the last twenty years.

Look. I will suport fully equal rights for everyone, regardless of race, gender, identity, what have you. But I draw the line at children. I don't care what you think of their parent's politics, you NEVER take it out on a child. A simple no thank you would have been fine.
For those not in the know, Cub Scouts are aged 7 to 10.

Will I put my son into scouts? I would like to. But I can't as long as they feel the need to disobey their own creeds. If they can't extend the same basic human decency that will alot to their own god-fearing, straight humans, then, well they can do it with out me or my son.

My dad was one of my scout masters. I told myself, maybe when I was 10 or 11, that one day I would do that for my son. Those were some of my best pre-teen memories.

Again. This whole situation just makes me sad.

Warlock.

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Web Warlock
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 Post subject: HSBC kicks out the Boy Scouts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 11:36 pm 
Sometimes, I just have to laugh. Obviously the situation is not funny but, these people have obviously never read the constitution. The constitution is to protect citizens from the government. So anyone taking their money from this bank are the ones discriminating. This bank obviously does not want to be party to discrimination, obviously the good citizens are bigots and happy to be that way.
People suck. Well, some do. Not you guys.

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Sugarloaf
"Due to the recent presidential elections, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off."



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 Post subject: HSBC kicks out the Boy Scouts
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 1:35 am 
God, this is almost enough to make me want to open an account in HSBC.

You're right about not taking it out on the kids, Web Warlock. I was a girl guide (similar to scouts) for about a year, and to this day have no idea if they have a similar discrimination policy.

As for those morons writting to the bank accusing it of a moral 'high stance'...well, it's refreshing to see a bank that has some ideals other than the hunt for the mighty dollar. I wonder if there was going to be so much ambiguity if the bank closed an account for the KKK or something. (not equating Scouts to KKK-just giving an extreme example).



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